Viper, Tremorscale and Selene are the problem, not procsets in general

Malic

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

Vapirko

Lol Skoria is just as op as Selenes.

GreenSoup2HoT

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Yes, Anne you make a very good point. Nobody is complaining about Ashen Grip or Song of Lamae on their death recap.

Most of the proc sets are pretty crappy actually, only a few are overperforming. And there are a lot of these sets that proc damage shield, healing or other effects.

No need to nerf everything in this game with proc component, simply adjust the specific sets like Selene and Viper that might benefit from slight damage reduction

Just reducing the damage of proc sets doesn't fix the problem. Problem being it doesn't matter what stats you have to obtain this damage. For example i could have 100% of my character spec'd into health and still use viper + seleane and be granted 12k proc damage in pvp every 4 seconds with 0 actual tooltip damage on my abilities.

Scaling is the best option.


Edit: Better yet i could use my literal fists. No weapons at all and kill people with proc sets.

I don't quite understand when you say they don't scale at all. These deal poison and physical damage, so they should be scaling on your weapon damage, max stamina and mighty CP etc., no?

At any rate you are a lot less likely to see Ashen Grip and Death's Wind on your death recap because the base damage for these sets is much lower.

If Viper and Selene is overperforming, why not simply reduce the base damage of Viper and Selene (or adjust their proc chance).

They do scale with cp that increased say direct damage or physical damage (for seleanes case) but point being you can have absolutely 0 damage. No weapons and still have 15,000 tooltips with Seleanes for example.

I can literally take off all my gear and wear nothing but a monster set and be granted whatever tooltip value they have.

What scaling does is it will take my weapon damage, weapon penetration and weapon critical into consideration and alter the tooltip value based on my players stats. So if im wearing nothing the tooltip value will be very low netting in low damage. This means if you stack heavy armour or only proc sets you will net less damage then someone who has say 2 weapon damage boosting sets and 1 proc set.

Joy_Division

Proc sets are in and of themselves not the problem.

It's the 5 piece invisible instant burst damage sets that can be stacked on each other and a monster set that need to be changed.

IZZEFlameLash

Skoria being OP? That's a first. Skoria needs like at least 6k of magicka to proc it reliably unlike stam procs. If anything, every overperforming proc sets should take Skoria as the gold standard when it comes to monster sets. 5 pieces need to be turned into a DoT. I bet people can build really strong DoT build out of those pieces and remain OP. Just a thought.

Koensol

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Selene can be dodged. Viper needs no telegraph, it simply hits every 4 seconds.
Pro tip - use evasion, roll dodge or simply block, if stamina user. CCing helps as well. If magicka user, spam shields.

No *** sherlock. But at one point in the fight you will get cc'ed, and when you do and that stuff procs, you are either dead or within execute range.

And why shouldn't you die? You got cc'd and didn't break... , Didn't have enough stam, whatev.

I fail to see the issue with bad play causing death..

Please enlighten.

Lol, tell me how and WHEN I should CC break when I get hit from incap (stun) which immediately procs viper and selene. Please enlighten?

But don't tell me I should be able to dodge/block EVERY attack thrown at me. It is bs. At one point you will take a hit. And 1 hit shouldn't mean going from 100% to 25% or less. Period.

And bad play? Pfff how ironic. Proc sets are just that: a solution for bad players to be able to kill others. Its utter cheese mode. Combat should be about skill not rng.

Ok, I'll tell you...

You run imov pots.

and/or

You gear/play appropriately.

You've set up your toon your way. If that's left you more susceptible to CC + damage, that's on you.

I get NB's pulling that incap/poison/surprise/proc all the time and occasionally it takes me down. However usually I mash breakfree, hit an imov/heal, stun/dot the nb and run him down. It's not like they have any other tricks.

I have a cheeseproc stamblade too, they're fun but super squishy (usually, there are some solid players out there too) and ya It wrecks people frequently. But that's on them, there are tons of players that can turn and burn regardless of proc cheese. Keep in mind, there's no guarantee that procs go off, it's a gamble for the proc user too.

I usually run an HA magplar. I could be in LA and do more damage, but then I'd be more susceptible to the gank builds. That's my call. If I find I'm still getting banged on I switch sets to go more tanky/heals, at the expense of damage. Again, my call. If you don't have that flexibility, that's on you.

Proc sets add a necessary chaos to pvp. It's pretty easy to math out a build to be near unkillable based on standard skills/gear. Proc sets force quick thinking, and changes in playstyle.

Call it whatever you want, proc sets change predictability in pvp and that's a good thing.

Keep crawling further down the rabbit hole. You are missing both my point and the overal big picture. Look, I know that there are counters. I said that before. But the problem is that playing without procs takes so much more skill and effort. Procs like viper and selene don't take any skill. It's just a matter of "hey lets jump that guy!", your stuff procs and hes dead. And like you said, you will get hit. I like to be able to counter stuff that people use against me. If I play bad, get caught on my horse and make the wrong moves and I die, that is completely fine. But there is something excruciatingly frustrating when you see Incap, viper, selene and executioner on your recap and you know you had almost no chance. All with the press of 1 or 2 buttons. Combinations of burst procs like that just don't have any place in PvP in its current form. The balance between skill/effort and damage output is just not there at the moment.

Derra

Narvuntien wrote: »

Red mountain?

The issue is they don't scale off weapon damage and spell damage so you don't have to build any damage to still get all this damage which I think is an issue. Huge amounts of free damage is just really hard to balance.

You redesign the whole thing so that the sets don't give a lot of weapon or spell damage (give other offensive stats), then have the proc scale off WD or SD (like ultimates)

The problem with the "scaling" approach is:
What do you do with a proccset like viper thats not avoidable when coupled with 5alchemist + 2kena (extreme example).
Or 5 ravager 5 veiled heritance + 2 selene.
Do you get selene tooltip of 25k and viper tt of 14k when you couple it with really high dmg setups?
What would be the benchmark of a proccset?

Hempyre

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Selene can be dodged. Viper needs no telegraph, it simply hits every 4 seconds.
Pro tip - use evasion, roll dodge or simply block, if stamina user. CCing helps as well. If magicka user, spam shields.

No *** sherlock. But at one point in the fight you will get cc'ed, and when you do and that stuff procs, you are either dead or within execute range.

And why shouldn't you die? You got cc'd and didn't break... , Didn't have enough stam, whatev.

I fail to see the issue with bad play causing death..

Please enlighten.

Lol, tell me how and WHEN I should CC break when I get hit from incap (stun) which immediately procs viper and selene. Please enlighten?

But don't tell me I should be able to dodge/block EVERY attack thrown at me. It is bs. At one point you will take a hit. And 1 hit shouldn't mean going from 100% to 25% or less. Period.

And bad play? Pfff how ironic. Proc sets are just that: a solution for bad players to be able to kill others. Its utter cheese mode. Combat should be about skill not rng.

Ok, I'll tell you...

You run imov pots.

and/or

You gear/play appropriately.

You've set up your toon your way. If that's left you more susceptible to CC + damage, that's on you.

I get NB's pulling that incap/poison/surprise/proc all the time and occasionally it takes me down. However usually I mash breakfree, hit an imov/heal, stun/dot the nb and run him down. It's not like they have any other tricks.

I have a cheeseproc stamblade too, they're fun but super squishy (usually, there are some solid players out there too) and ya It wrecks people frequently. But that's on them, there are tons of players that can turn and burn regardless of proc cheese. Keep in mind, there's no guarantee that procs go off, it's a gamble for the proc user too.

I usually run an HA magplar. I could be in LA and do more damage, but then I'd be more susceptible to the gank builds. That's my call. If I find I'm still getting banged on I switch sets to go more tanky/heals, at the expense of damage. Again, my call. If you don't have that flexibility, that's on you.

Proc sets add a necessary chaos to pvp. It's pretty easy to math out a build to be near unkillable based on standard skills/gear. Proc sets force quick thinking, and changes in playstyle.

Call it whatever you want, proc sets change predictability in pvp and that's a good thing.

You are missing both my point and the overal big picture. Look, I know that there are counters. I said that before. But the problem is that playing without procs takes so much more skill and effort. Procs like viper and selene don't take any skill. It's just a matter of "hey lets jump that guy!", your stuff procs and hes dead. And like you said, you will get hit. I like to be able to counter stuff that people use against me. If I play bad, get caught on my horse and make the wrong moves and I die, that is completely fine. But there is something excruciatingly frustrating when you see Incap, viper, selene and executioner on your recap and you know you had almost no chance. All with the press of 1 or 2 buttons. Combinations of burst procs like that just don't have any place in PvP in its current form. The balance between skill/effort and damage output is just not there at the moment.

No, I see the point, and the bigger picture. We just have a difference of opinion as to what those things are.

I see proc sets as providing a little rng magic to help change the predictability of combat. They provide opportunity and chance to help less experienced players not be cannon fodder for the higher skilled and better built. It doesn't matter that they take no skill, that's the point of them. Both can use them, both enjoy the risk and reward of their use equally. Others can build to counter or choose not to.

Proc sets aren't that hard to survive. If you have multiple instances of incap/etc.. spam in your recap, then, maybe... -insert Louis CK voice here- you didn't get to moving as quickly as you should have, or maybe you were solo, in the open, in LA, or you didn't heal quick enough, or any of a dozen other causes that are entirely yours. I dont know... NB's arent exactly high range, or generally very tanky -minus a few solid players out there, which are in any class-

The overall picture, as I see it, is the same nerf threads over and over about whatever the fotm skill/class is, by the same people because they don't want to consider changing their setup/playstyle.

This reduces choice, it doesn't increase it.

Qbiken

Vapirko wrote: »

Lol Skoria is just as op as Selenes.

But Skoria comes with a trade-off. You´re forced to use DoTs for it to proc, and 1 single DoT is rarely enough for it to proc, so you´ve to use multipled DoT´s for even a decent chance to to occur. With more DoT´s you sacrifice burst damage (which Skoria is supposed to give you some). A fair trade off if you ask me. It´s also funny that people complaining about Skoria being OP only when BG´s was released. I might have missed some forum posts, but I can´t remember the last time BEFORE morrowind someone thought Skoria was "OP". So is this a non-CP problem or a proc-problem (regarding only Skoria)?? Sounds more like a non-cp problem if you ask me........

Valencer

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

Drummerx04

I actually really hate encountering skoria users. The burst is pretty high (being a vamp in cyro doesn't help for this specific set either), it procs surprisingly often and always at the crappiest times.

A templar spamming reflective light, and jabs/j-beam at 60% health and skoria knocking you well into execute range for instance. Or getting zerged down and soul assaulted... which then procs skoria as an extra f*** you in case you weren't feeling screwed enough. It's just a really nasty set.

Selene actually bothers me less than skoria because it has a telegraph and can be dodged. And lets be fair, if you get jumped from stealth and incapped or whatever and can't break free to dodge selene's, you probably weren't going to last long anyway.

SnubbS

If Skoria didn't make my screen freeze/shake when it hit me—I'd have literally no issue with any proc set. I main MagDK, and I don't run a damage proc. People need to die, damage needs to be high—burst should be the answer for both.

I miss 1.6 where I could two/three shot someone with a good combo—those days are gone. The game is in a decent place right now—people die, healing isn't insane anymore (Healers still carry groups of 3-4 on their back) etc.

StamDK needs a buff, Tumbling/Warlord needs to be fixed, Resto Ult needs nerfing, and Shields need to be scrapped and rethought from the ground up.

Kay1 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

People arguing about nerfing proc sets...

They don't need a direct nerf, just nerf the amount of proc sets you can use, 1 should be the limit.

Some are broken either way. RM on mag sorc is awful to play against for example.

Red Mountain on Magsorc lmao, that's some *** build to be honest and I'm sure the sorc is making enough sacrifices so the proc is alright even if it deal 10k procs he can't survive.

Red Mountain on MagSorc is BiS. Until you've used it and seen how often the 5k procs—you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.

Zer0oo

Derra wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Red mountain?

The issue is they don't scale off weapon damage and spell damage so you don't have to build any damage to still get all this damage which I think is an issue. Huge amounts of free damage is just really hard to balance.

You redesign the whole thing so that the sets don't give a lot of weapon or spell damage (give other offensive stats), then have the proc scale off WD or SD (like ultimates)

The problem with the "scaling" approach is:
What do you do with a proccset like viper thats not avoidable when coupled with 5alchemist + 2kena (extreme example).
Or 5 ravager 5 veiled heritance + 2 selene.
Do you get selene tooltip of 25k and viper tt of 14k when you couple it with really high dmg setups?
What would be the benchmark of a proccset?

But it is still better than what it is now with just free burst damage that is independent of any of your stats. Maybe make it a none-linear scaling with some max damage it can do in a full damage build.

Also the crit nerf was a bad idea now it doesn't matter how much crit(light and medium passives) you have, your procs still do the same damage. It would be better if they had lowered the base damage of the over-performing sets and still let them crit. Maybe also make them dot damage so it is not so much burst potential .That way it doesn't feel like a lazy band-aid-fix, proc would be still ok in pve(pve builds have normally a higher crit chance than pvp), and in pvp we could reduce the damage with impen.

Sarato

Procsets aren't the problem lol. "Skill" means gaining most knowledge on what sets to use at a given time, button pressing obv, cancel animations, what combo(s) to use, what rotation to use(basically same *** as combo), what pots to use given what time, your CP level, whether your armor is green, blue, purple, or gold, what food you're using, whether you need heavy or medium or light, what fits YOUR playstyle etc etc etc etc. This list goes on. SO many factors. Don't think the game is balanced nor should it be. The person who has acquired the most knowledge on what I've mentioned, "Skill", WILL HAVE THE EASIEST TIME WHETHER THAT BE PVP OR PVE. Some people choose NOT to use procs then complain about procs; this is some false pride bullsh*t. It's in the game, and if it it betters your class USE it, or die and keep complaining and stay mad. There are people on every class who are AMAZING at this game. A player 3 months old isn't going to be as good as Fengrush or Sypher because they took time to gain more knowledge on wtf to do. L2p people. PvP isn't AMAZING right now(I'd say due to the amount of zergs and less soloing/ small grouping, but that's entirely opinion) but it's far better than it was.

Sarato

Can't get enough of people taking stamina and magicka class builds off the internet thinking it will make them a god. Whine whine whine whine whine!!! wAhaAAAhHHHhhH!!

revonine

Keep proc sets as they are for PvE purposes, but all sets that offer FREE damage while costing no resources for doing something you would otherwise be normally doing while trying to kill an opponent in PvP should be disabled. Period.

Can be as easy as adding the condition to battle spirit or something.

You can't balance PvP around armor that does free damage for you.

And yes this is coming from a current procblade.

Anhedonie

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Viper
Selene
Tremorscale
Red mountain
Skoria
Grothdarr


are the problem

Can we not blanket nerf everything and kill sets like winterborn off please?

Isn't it a deadborn set?

Arthg

My personal measurement of whether something is OP is by assessing the number of people running a given set.

In Sotha Sil PC EU my impression is that 50% of the player population is a nightblade running Viper/Selene/Eternal Hunt.
As far as I can tell, every stam build uses Viper (except me cause I'm that special snowflake).
Now that's going to tell something (well it's subjective, I know, but I'd be interested in knowing what someone on Sotha Sil PC EU thinks).

However I don't think proc sets totally neutralize skill.
Bad proctards get crushed; good proctards are, well, good.

I've learned a lot trying to fight proctards without being one myself - it's hard, and I'm L2Ping, but it is surprisingly possible to beat them, and that's where my fun is - not by being one of those countless clones running the same effing build.

BohnT

Let's get this started:
1. Skoria is too strong for the reason all other problem sets are overperforming. The time to get all dots up don't make up for what you get afterwards. Skoria provides a high burst at random and there is the problem 'random & high damge' you can have long fights against skoria users but at one point he gets lucky and skoria procs and he deals lots of damage to you while using other abilities. There are almost no complaints about sheer venom, vicecanonian syvarra's scales or overwhelming surge because they have a high tooltip but they are dots. Imagine if vicecanonian dealt burst damage it would be BiS with a tooltip ~24k without a cooldown even sheer venom would be broken, a set that deals 600-1k dots for 6 sec would be better than viper with its own 13k tooltip.
The problem I have with proc sets is that they deal way too much dmg in one global cooldown. Any other build has a strictly limit burst cap for one global cooldown. All buffs are up, you go in and do LA+enchant+skill+bash dealing x damage in 1 gcd
This varies for certain classes which can put 2 or 3 dmg skills into one gcd like sorcs, warden, bow nb.
However a procbuild has the potential to deal: LA+proc1+proc2+proc3+enchant + skill + bash in one gcd. That is a problem for medium / light armor build which die instantly and for heavy armor builds who eat the full dmg while they are cc'd and can't break free in under 1 sec.

Change strong proc sets to dots and leave only things like ashen grip with low tooltip as burst sets, and reduce their proc chance. Just compare Velidreth (wonder why no one mentioned it in this thread before) with Maw of the infernal. 20% proc on all dmg vs 10% proc on light / heavy attacks that's just plain stupid to read, a very good proc set is easier to proc than the worst monster set out there.

TL:DR
The Burst procs provide in one gcd is too big.
change the damage into dots ---> no harm for pve
increase the duration of all those dots slightly (1-2 sec)
increase the duration of grothdar by 3sec to reduce the high dot dmg a bit

Koensol

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Selene can be dodged. Viper needs no telegraph, it simply hits every 4 seconds.
Pro tip - use evasion, roll dodge or simply block, if stamina user. CCing helps as well. If magicka user, spam shields.

No *** sherlock. But at one point in the fight you will get cc'ed, and when you do and that stuff procs, you are either dead or within execute range.

And why shouldn't you die? You got cc'd and didn't break... , Didn't have enough stam, whatev.

I fail to see the issue with bad play causing death..

Please enlighten.

Lol, tell me how and WHEN I should CC break when I get hit from incap (stun) which immediately procs viper and selene. Please enlighten?

But don't tell me I should be able to dodge/block EVERY attack thrown at me. It is bs. At one point you will take a hit. And 1 hit shouldn't mean going from 100% to 25% or less. Period.

And bad play? Pfff how ironic. Proc sets are just that: a solution for bad players to be able to kill others. Its utter cheese mode. Combat should be about skill not rng.

Ok, I'll tell you...

You run imov pots.

and/or

You gear/play appropriately.

You've set up your toon your way. If that's left you more susceptible to CC + damage, that's on you.

I get NB's pulling that incap/poison/surprise/proc all the time and occasionally it takes me down. However usually I mash breakfree, hit an imov/heal, stun/dot the nb and run him down. It's not like they have any other tricks.

I have a cheeseproc stamblade too, they're fun but super squishy (usually, there are some solid players out there too) and ya It wrecks people frequently. But that's on them, there are tons of players that can turn and burn regardless of proc cheese. Keep in mind, there's no guarantee that procs go off, it's a gamble for the proc user too.

I usually run an HA magplar. I could be in LA and do more damage, but then I'd be more susceptible to the gank builds. That's my call. If I find I'm still getting banged on I switch sets to go more tanky/heals, at the expense of damage. Again, my call. If you don't have that flexibility, that's on you.

Proc sets add a necessary chaos to pvp. It's pretty easy to math out a build to be near unkillable based on standard skills/gear. Proc sets force quick thinking, and changes in playstyle.

Call it whatever you want, proc sets change predictability in pvp and that's a good thing.

You are missing both my point and the overal big picture. Look, I know that there are counters. I said that before. But the problem is that playing without procs takes so much more skill and effort. Procs like viper and selene don't take any skill. It's just a matter of "hey lets jump that guy!", your stuff procs and hes dead. And like you said, you will get hit. I like to be able to counter stuff that people use against me. If I play bad, get caught on my horse and make the wrong moves and I die, that is completely fine. But there is something excruciatingly frustrating when you see Incap, viper, selene and executioner on your recap and you know you had almost no chance. All with the press of 1 or 2 buttons. Combinations of burst procs like that just don't have any place in PvP in its current form. The balance between skill/effort and damage output is just not there at the moment.

I see proc sets as providing a little rng magic to help change the predictability of combat. They provide opportunity and chance to help less experienced players not be cannon fodder for the higher skilled and better built. It doesn't matter that they take no skill, that's the point of them. Both can use them, both enjoy the risk and reward of their use equally. Others can build to counter or choose not to.

Yea let's provide bad players a tool to score cheesy kills on more skilled players just by mashing 1 button. Let's not reward and stimulate effort, skill and good tactics. No... let's keep it easy and cheesy. If that is your idea of good game design and challenge, then I have nothing more to say.

Destyran

Think you forgot redmountain way of fire trollking.
That heavy attack oblivion damage set also oblivion damage glyph sorcs sit in shields heavy attack for irresistible damage while soul assaulting with a tooltip of 95k. Fact proc sets still crit.

Zer0oo

BohnT wrote: »

Let's get this started:
1. Skoria is too strong for the reason all other problem sets are overperforming. The time to get all dots up don't make up for what you get afterwards. Skoria provides a high burst at random and there is the problem 'random & high damge' you can have long fights against skoria users but at one point he gets lucky and skoria procs and he deals lots of damage to you while using other abilities. There are almost no complaints about sheer venom, vicecanonian syvarra's scales or overwhelming surge because they have a high tooltip but they are dots. Imagine if vicecanonian dealt burst damage it would be BiS with a tooltip ~24k without a cooldown even sheer venom would be broken, a set that deals 600-1k dots for 6 sec would be better than viper with its own 13k tooltip.
The problem I have with proc sets is that they deal way too much dmg in one global cooldown. Any other build has a strictly limit burst cap for one global cooldown. All buffs are up, you go in and do LA+enchant+skill+bash dealing x damage in 1 gcd
This varies for certain classes which can put 2 or 3 dmg skills into one gcd like sorcs, warden, bow nb.
However a procbuild has the potential to deal: LA+proc1+proc2+proc3+enchant + skill + bash in one gcd. That is a problem for medium / light armor build which die instantly and for heavy armor builds who eat the full dmg while they are cc'd and can't break free in under 1 sec.

Change strong proc sets to dots and leave only things like ashen grip with low tooltip as burst sets, and reduce their proc chance. Just compare Velidreth (wonder why no one mentioned it in this thread before) with Maw of the infernal. 20% proc on all dmg vs 10% proc on light / heavy attacks that's just plain stupid to read, a very good proc set is easier to proc than the worst monster set out there.

TL:DR
The Burst procs provide in one gcd is too big.
change the damage into dots ---> no harm for pve
increase the duration of all those dots slightly (1-2 sec)
increase the duration of grothdar by 3sec to reduce the high dot dmg a bit

I would also make so they can crit again but lower the base damage. Make it that you have in pve(60+% crit chance) the same dps as now where the proc sets can't crit.

Destyran

Zer0oo wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Let's get this started:
1. Skoria is too strong for the reason all other problem sets are overperforming. The time to get all dots up don't make up for what you get afterwards. Skoria provides a high burst at random and there is the problem 'random & high damge' you can have long fights against skoria users but at one point he gets lucky and skoria procs and he deals lots of damage to you while using other abilities. There are almost no complaints about sheer venom, vicecanonian syvarra's scales or overwhelming surge because they have a high tooltip but they are dots. Imagine if vicecanonian dealt burst damage it would be BiS with a tooltip ~24k without a cooldown even sheer venom would be broken, a set that deals 600-1k dots for 6 sec would be better than viper with its own 13k tooltip.
The problem I have with proc sets is that they deal way too much dmg in one global cooldown. Any other build has a strictly limit burst cap for one global cooldown. All buffs are up, you go in and do LA+enchant+skill+bash dealing x damage in 1 gcd
This varies for certain classes which can put 2 or 3 dmg skills into one gcd like sorcs, warden, bow nb.
However a procbuild has the potential to deal: LA+proc1+proc2+proc3+enchant + skill + bash in one gcd. That is a problem for medium / light armor build which die instantly and for heavy armor builds who eat the full dmg while they are cc'd and can't break free in under 1 sec.

Change strong proc sets to dots and leave only things like ashen grip with low tooltip as burst sets, and reduce their proc chance. Just compare Velidreth (wonder why no one mentioned it in this thread before) with Maw of the infernal. 20% proc on all dmg vs 10% proc on light / heavy attacks that's just plain stupid to read, a very good proc set is easier to proc than the worst monster set out there.

TL:DR
The Burst procs provide in one gcd is too big.
change the damage into dots ---> no harm for pve
increase the duration of all those dots slightly (1-2 sec)
increase the duration of grothdar by 3sec to reduce the high dot dmg a bit

I would also make so they can crit again but lower the base damage. Make it that you have in pve(60+% crit chance) the same dps as now where the proc sets can't crit.

Proc sets still crit. Test your self

AdicusDio

Stop with this "nerf" BS because it kills you. How about we nerf 60k+ tanks with unlimited defense? How about we nerf healers with 100k+ crit healing they can spam constantly along with damage shields? Maybe we should just nerf the whole damned game so people can never die, never do damage, never heal.

You need us and these sets to do vet content. Unless you want to spend 5x longer just grinding a vet dungeon, I suggest you either avoid fighting dps characters, or start traveling in groups that mimic vet trials if Viper is causing you so much trouble.

Anne_Firehawk

AdicusDio wrote: »

Stop with this "nerf" BS because it kills you. How about we nerf 60k+ tanks with unlimited defense? How about we nerf healers with 100k+ crit healing they can spam constantly along with damage shields? Maybe we should just nerf the whole damned game so people can never die, never do damage, never heal.

You need us and these sets to do vet content. Unless you want to spend 5x longer just grinding a vet dungeon, I suggest you either avoid fighting dps characters, or start traveling in groups that mimic vet trials if Viper is causing you so much trouble.

Are you even playing the game?

AdicusDio

FWIW, if you want to PvP, better get better defense sets and spec your cp properly. If you think 4k viper poison is too much, run a couple poison resist enchants on your jewelry. It's over 3k per enchant resist. Run 3 of them. Stop blaming the sets because you can't build the defense to properly counter it.

Zer0oo

AdicusDio wrote: »

FWIW, if you want to PvP, better get better defense sets and spec your cp properly. If you think 4k viper poison is too much, run a couple poison resist enchants on your jewelry. It's over 3k per enchant resist. Run 3 of them. Stop blaming the sets because you can't build the defense to properly counter it.

LOL. Nice troll

Ocelot9x

No one said something about infernal guardian? It's insanely strong if you're melee and trying to fight a msorc you have 2 choices:stop attacking to dodge 3 aoe or see 7,2k damage from it in the recap

Edit: proc set generally are for scrubs. Sorry ,if you think you're good and wearing a damage procset I've some bad news. It's zos way to carry handless people.

Anne_Firehawk

AdicusDio wrote: »

FWIW, if you want to PvP, better get better defense sets and spec your cp properly. If you think 4k viper poison is too much, run a couple poison resist enchants on your jewelry. It's over 3k per enchant resist. Run 3 of them. Stop blaming the sets because you can't build the defense to properly counter it.

Yeah right

maboleth

Arthg wrote: »

My personal measurement of whether something is OP is by assessing the number of people running a given set.

In Sotha Sil PC EU my impression is that 50% of the player population is a nightblade running Viper/Selene/Eternal Hunt.
As far as I can tell, every stam build uses Viper (except me cause I'm that special snowflake).
Now that's going to tell something (well it's subjective, I know, but I'd be interested in knowing what someone on Sotha Sil PC EU thinks).

However I don't think proc sets totally neutralize skill.
Bad proctards get crushed; good proctards are, well, good.

I've learned a lot trying to fight proctards without being one myself - it's hard, and I'm L2Ping, but it is surprisingly possible to beat them, and that's where my fun is - not by being one of those countless clones running the same effing build.