A Sad Truth

Rohamad_Ali

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The only sad truth is this thread is badly titled . I've laughed more here then any other thread .

@Rohamad_Ali

Here is the thing, (That i was afraid of when i started this thread)

All the counter arguments here are based soley on peoples personal biases.

they equate "their experience in-game" as gospel and fact.

Because they "see" Stormhaven with a bunch of people that means the games health is fine...despite outside sources such as Google Trends showing interest in the game took a huge Noise dive in June of 2015 (Imperial City release) and the games interest has never come close to rebounding back since. The lowest it ever got was December 2014, but the dive after IC put it like 5% above that and it has hover in the 5-7% margin of that since with small little highs and lows in between.

The BIG issue with the ESO community(Well any MMO community really) is bias....folks take their own personal biases as fact, and will ignore, ridicule, and outright dismiss anything that doesn't line up with what they experience "in-game". This is a very dangerous, untenable, outright irrational position to hold.

The majority of those arguing against these trends have their basis seated in irrationality. Many people have developed a "love for the game" or have close ties to it, even I am guilty of this. I used to stay up at night and play this game while my Dad was sleeping due to too much pain meds while he was dying of cancer. So i myself do have my own personal love of this game for many of my own reasons.I myself have to be careful not to let my own personal love for ESO and my personal biases to cloud my judgement.

When I log into the game, the game world appears to have people in it. I would assume the game was ok going by soley that alone, but Google Trends is that "neutral outside source" that isn't biased.

Its hard to put aside your personal biases. Biases are based on personal feelings, and human feelings are literally the most irrational things on the planet. Human beings in their very nature can be irrational at times...its why were human, it makes life interesting.

PVP is the best example, we all have zerg goggles....when 10 people zerged us down it feels like a whole raid sometimes...our own biases initially think its 20 people, but its really only 7-10....this is the best example of how in-game biases does not equal reality.

Things that are popular and successful are searched on Google a lot, things that are not, are not. Google Shows ESO taking two very large nose dives, one in 2014 (After the Lighting Patch), and another in June of 2015 (After IC) the games pop, speaking of PC-NA, has never really recovered from those two drops....

I don't have console, so maybe the population there is better due to how much more mainstream console is, but even then, trends show interest down.

As much as I love ESO, heck this game helped me deal with losing my dad, Even i can put aside my own personal biases and look at outside data from an objective point of view....trying to base decisions on personal experiences in-game is intellectually dishonest....This would be like someone trying to refute smoking causes cancer because that person has smoked for 35 years and never gotten cancer...its intellectually dishonest, its an untenable position...yet on these forums, in-game experiences based on irrationality and personal bias seem to be taken like gospel and folks just pile on popular opinion.

Folks that say the game is doing good have ZERO verifiable proof of those claims other then their own personal experiences in game which is rooted in bias and has no basis facts....yet statistics put up from an independent source and read according to Googles own guidelines are ripped apart by the very same arguments rooted in those biases.

Its almost an affront to free thought....if def clear that trying to simply state what the data says will always be met with resistance here, simply because so many have some sort of personal attachment to the game, that they will never get past their biases and evaluate things objectively....and that's really a shame. Real progress can be made with open minds, but i can't force peoples minds open....folks have to want to learn for themselves....

That is terrible to lose ones Father and I am so sorry for your loss . It goes for many that we will all meet again one day and prayers to you and your family this be true one day .

With thoughts on the games health , I understand your concern but do not think this data is showing you the entire story . As others have pointed out we often miss the forest with one big tree in the foreground . ESO does not have any real competition in it's niche aside an older retro game . This has helped it remain alive . The financial backing for ESO is strong with ZoS as much as people may want to make fun of them , they are as a corporation a financial power house not familiar with failure . That said , they continue to throw money into development regularly . We just are not there yet with panick mode end of days real concerns . Do we have a messy patch on the horizon ? Yep ! Will it take months to sort out ? Yep . Will people leave ? Sure . Will it kill the population ? No , the opposite is probably happening . A big influx of new players inbound just for Marrowind and some old players will return after some smoke clears . That's my prediction .

PC is always first to panick . They get to test . Just like when Vet levels went live , we did not crumble as others predicted . So this game you have loved and have lasting memories of your Father with will be around many years my friend . Stay positive and stop looking at Mein Graphs .

Cadbury

I'm just gonna leave this here...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Malamar1229 wrote: »

The google searches are all the console folks looking up lorebook and skyshard locations

Guilty as changed

Balamoor

Linken wrote: »

The constant doom and gloom on this forum....

It's funny isn't it? And by funny I mean disheartening

But if you look into it a bit further it's the same handful of people continually crying about anything they can possibly pull out of their A** and really every MMO out there has it's doomsayers, except for maybe FFXIV, because hey act like a douchenozzel on their forums and you will find your game account deleted.

Honestly unless ZoS starts taking those measures all we can do is point and laugh at the sheer absurdity of it all.

Shad0wfire99

Valkysas154 wrote: »

I reported a little while back that we would give ESO yet another try. We did. After logging in, I struggled to find a single player actually doing anything out in the world of ESO

Stopped reading right there.. Such lie's there are plenty of ppl running around doing quests what did this person do play the game at 3 in the morning or something

PS not every one uses google i sure don't

More people use Google than people that play ESO.

AoDD33pfri3d

Dude are you sure you were on eso I just did pvp 2 days ago hundreds of players, in pve I see a bunch of people.

RinaldoGandolphi

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I love how every one of OP's rebuttals doesn't address the fact that Google analytics is worthless if you're only looking at one keyword search when dozens, even hundreds of related keyword searches are done by players who are actually in the game.

Add up all the "X guide ESO", "ESO forums", "ESO X builds", "ESO X DLC", AND all of the "Elder scrolls Online" searches, along with ALL the related fansite searches, and then you'll have real-ish, somewhat meaningful data about general interest in the game, and probably a good idea about game population.

You assume I only looked at one term....which again...is a wrong assumption.

Here is two quick images I was able to pull off my cloud drive(I don't have time to take and upload the 70+ terms I used, here is 4 for ya)







Adding up every single search term ever conceived for ESO is ridiclious and is not how trends are forecast. Google correlates multiple search queries related to ESO behind the scenes. Just searching on ESO on Google trends takes that query + a few hundred others and matches(such as ESO builds, ESO forums, ESO tips, etc) them together and correlates them against their search system worldwide...so that way you don't have to put in every single term.....if you have used their Adwords bidding program to show you the competition among various Adwords and various Adword terms related to yours, this is how it works.

Those are 4 examples of other such trends that show the same nosedive in 2015 after Imperial City release.

Again the game IMO is much better now then it was after IC release in 2015, but that's just my opinion which is of course biased.

Again, the data is there. I am not here to argue with personal biases, I am here to hopefully get ZOS to start thinking up more ideas to get more people to try ESO so we can have a larger player base. If you were not here in 2014 you don't know how many people there used to be...all the people you see in One Tamriel...times that by 10 with only your faction alone back then.

We should never settle for status quo, we should always try to improve and strive for more. Refusal to acknowledge a problem is a problem itself and does no one any good. Its not just about ESO game life....we need to make sure they make as much money as possible because future games from them depend on it....the more money they make, the more money they have for future games and current games...its in our best interests to try and get as many people to try ESO as possible.

the petty insults and defensive natures really have no place here, the thread isn't antagonistic in nature, but many people started right away to turn it into that.When in reality the threads purpose is to get them to attract more players.

Balamoor

AoDD33pfri3d wrote: »

Dude are you sure you were on eso I just did pvp 2 days ago hundreds of players, in pve I see a bunch of people.

I know right?

Kinda like the old Warsong gulch days.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I love how every one of OP's rebuttals doesn't address the fact that Google analytics is worthless if you're only looking at one keyword search when dozens, even hundreds of related keyword searches are done by players who are actually in the game.

Add up all the "X guide ESO", "ESO forums", "ESO X builds", "ESO X DLC", AND all of the "Elder scrolls Online" searches, along with ALL the related fansite searches, and then you'll have real-ish, somewhat meaningful data about general interest in the game, and probably a good idea about game population.

You assume I only looked at one term....which again...is a wrong assumption.

Here is two quick images I was able to pull off my cloud drive(I don't have time to take and upload the 70+ terms I used, here is 4 for ya)







Adding up every single search term ever conceived for ESO is ridiclious and is not how trends are forecast. Google correlates multiple search queries related to ESO behind the scenes. Just searching on ESO on Google trends takes that query + a few hundred others and matches(such as ESO builds, ESO forums, ESO tips, etc) them together and correlates them against their search system worldwide...so that way you don't have to put in every single term.....if you have used their Adwords bidding program to show you the competition among various Adwords and various Adword terms related to yours, this is how it works.

Those are 4 examples of other such trends that show the same nosedive in 2015 after Imperial City release.

Again the game IMO is much better now then it was after IC release in 2015, but that's just my opinion which is of course biased.

Again, the data is there. I am not here to argue with personal biases, I am here to hopefully get ZOS to start thinking up more ideas to get more people to try ESO so we can have a larger player base. If you were not here in 2014 you don't know how many people there used to be...all the people you see in One Tamriel...times that by 10 with only your faction alone back then.

We should never settle for status quo, we should always try to improve and strive for more. Refusal to acknowledge a problem is a problem itself and does no one any good. Its not just about ESO game life....we need to make sure they make as much money as possible because future games from them depend on it....the more money they make, the more money they have for future games and current games...its in our best interests to try and get as many people to try ESO as possible.

the petty insults and defensive natures really have no place here, the thread isn't antagonistic in nature, but many people started right away to turn it into that.When in reality the threads purpose is to get them to attract more players.

So ... when do you expect it to die?

kargen27

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Here is the thing, (That i was afraid of when i started this thread)

All the counter arguments here are based soley on peoples personal biases.

they equate "their experience in-game" as gospel and fact.

And your arguments are based on your biases, "supported" by charts you could find that you think agree with those biases.

I am not arguing whether the game is dying or not. I do know two of the five guilds I am in lost several active and key members in the last 36 hours or so. They reported obvious cheating in Cyradiil and the response they got back was you can put the offenders on your ignore list. In some cases they provided video of the cheating and it was blatantly obvious. Almost any other response other than put them on your ignore list might have kept some of them playing the game and some might come back after they have cooled down some, maybe. Last night in Discord they were looking for a new game to go to. Just saying thank you we are aware of the situation and are working on it would have been at least something. I can't prove it but I am guessing automated responses that are unrelated to the issue being raised ranks right up there it the top two for reasons people leave the game.

I'm not defending the game nor the company. Certain aspects are a mess and need addressed.

I am saying none of the graphs you posted have anything to do at all with where the game is where it was or where it is going.

RinaldoGandolphi

lordrichter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

All the counter arguments here are based soley on peoples personal biases.

The thing is that your entire first comment in this thread, and most of the ones since then, have been exactly this. You read an article and the article resonated with you. You have, since then, worked to build the case against ESO.

If you had spent some time investigating what your graphs mean, you would have seen that your graphs are showing the base line interest in the game, and that this interest is not waning. It is staying relatively steady.

Do a Google Trends search on "rivenspire", "wayrest", and "mournhold" and you will see a trend of increasing interest. Do a search on "stonefalls" and "auridon" and you will see that flat line, again. These searches indicate queries that are going to be coming from people playing the game, not from people who are just passing by wondering about the game.

Look at the Google Trends for Morrowind. You can watch the game's level of interest decline over time, until this year, when interest has been climbing. This indicates interest in both the old TES game, and the ESO Chapter.

Nope

My original intent was DISPROVE the article, and oh boy did i ever try (over 80+ queries related to ESO) but the results end up coming back to being close to what your looking at....don't get me wrong some queries do have some ups like your talking about, but even TES Oblivion has constant up and down spikes even to this day.

I am saying "overall" over 70+ queries related to ESO...this is the average trend. the absolute best thing we can hope for is Morriwind causes a BIG uptick and then it levels out at about twice what it is now...which is right around the 50's...if it stays right around the 50's after Morrowind...we got a big winner and thats what im hoping for!

Rohamad_Ali

Nightblade builds falling off Google Cliffs of DOOM ...




@ZOS_GinaBruno Please use this Data for Nightblade Buffs next patch on TC . You can't argue the data , we need a buff .

Hope499

This might be one of the most pathetic posts I have seen...

OP...so many better things you could be worried about...

KeiruNicrom

..if people are not searching for ESO, they are not thinking about ESO, thus they are not interested in it nor playing it as much as we all think.

Why would people who are playing the game currently be searching for it. They already have it. And they likely already have the resources they want bookmarked. Nobody is searching for Elder Scrolls Online because most people shorten to ESO or TESO, and because they are talking about it on reddit, here on the forums or, *gasp* the divines forbid, playing the damn game.

Google is a good statistic to show the interest of new players. Not veterans/long term players. Console plebs too every now and again probably, but again you find a decent resource and stick with it, not search for a new one every time you have a build idea or a question about a certain mechanic

kargen27

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

All the counter arguments here are based soley on peoples personal biases.

The thing is that your entire first comment in this thread, and most of the ones since then, have been exactly this. You read an article and the article resonated with you. You have, since then, worked to build the case against ESO.

If you had spent some time investigating what your graphs mean, you would have seen that your graphs are showing the base line interest in the game, and that this interest is not waning. It is staying relatively steady.

Do a Google Trends search on "rivenspire", "wayrest", and "mournhold" and you will see a trend of increasing interest. Do a search on "stonefalls" and "auridon" and you will see that flat line, again. These searches indicate queries that are going to be coming from people playing the game, not from people who are just passing by wondering about the game.

Look at the Google Trends for Morrowind. You can watch the game's level of interest decline over time, until this year, when interest has been climbing. This indicates interest in both the old TES game, and the ESO Chapter.

Nope

My original intent was DISPROVE the article, and oh boy did i ever try (over 80+ queries related to ESO) but the results end up coming back to being close to what your looking at....don't get me wrong some queries do have some ups like your talking about, but even TES Oblivion has constant up and down spikes even to this day.

I am saying "overall" over 70+ queries related to ESO...this is the average trend. the absolute best thing we can hope for is Morriwind causes a BIG uptick and then it levels out at about twice what it is now...which is right around the 50's...if it stays right around the 50's after Morrowind...we got a big winner and thats what im hoping for!

And still none of it can be considered related to the state of the game because you still have no way of knowing the demographics. What percentage of people doing a search during peaks were actually playing the game? Until you can answer that question the data is worthless.

RinaldoGandolphi

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I love how every one of OP's rebuttals doesn't address the fact that Google analytics is worthless if you're only looking at one keyword search when dozens, even hundreds of related keyword searches are done by players who are actually in the game.

Add up all the "X guide ESO", "ESO forums", "ESO X builds", "ESO X DLC", AND all of the "Elder scrolls Online" searches, along with ALL the related fansite searches, and then you'll have real-ish, somewhat meaningful data about general interest in the game, and probably a good idea about game population.

You assume I only looked at one term....which again...is a wrong assumption.

Here is two quick images I was able to pull off my cloud drive(I don't have time to take and upload the 70+ terms I used, here is 4 for ya)







Adding up every single search term ever conceived for ESO is ridiclious and is not how trends are forecast. Google correlates multiple search queries related to ESO behind the scenes. Just searching on ESO on Google trends takes that query + a few hundred others and matches(such as ESO builds, ESO forums, ESO tips, etc) them together and correlates them against their search system worldwide...so that way you don't have to put in every single term.....if you have used their Adwords bidding program to show you the competition among various Adwords and various Adword terms related to yours, this is how it works.

Those are 4 examples of other such trends that show the same nosedive in 2015 after Imperial City release.

Again the game IMO is much better now then it was after IC release in 2015, but that's just my opinion which is of course biased.

Again, the data is there. I am not here to argue with personal biases, I am here to hopefully get ZOS to start thinking up more ideas to get more people to try ESO so we can have a larger player base. If you were not here in 2014 you don't know how many people there used to be...all the people you see in One Tamriel...times that by 10 with only your faction alone back then.

We should never settle for status quo, we should always try to improve and strive for more. Refusal to acknowledge a problem is a problem itself and does no one any good. Its not just about ESO game life....we need to make sure they make as much money as possible because future games from them depend on it....the more money they make, the more money they have for future games and current games...its in our best interests to try and get as many people to try ESO as possible.

the petty insults and defensive natures really have no place here, the thread isn't antagonistic in nature, but many people started right away to turn it into that.When in reality the threads purpose is to get them to attract more players.

So ... when do you expect it to die?

Again your asking a dishonest loaded question. How can i possibly make a guess when i really have no idea what their financial books look like?

they had a 300 million dollar investment from Providence Equity Partners in 2007

In 2010 they got an extra $150 million from the same investors

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/147886/500-million-to-make-eso/p1

Thats 450 million dollars right there alone...how much of that is left? I have no idea...they could operate in the red for years with that kinda capital....you know darn well your asking me a dishonest question that is impossible to answer without data im obviously missing.

Rouven

I just did this for "mmo".

This whole genre is doomed!

Doom is pretty steady btw.

Malamar1229

Honest assessment from someone who plays actively on both console and PC.
Console absolutely feels more packed with players than PC...in fact, PC seems more like a desert lately. I have NO issues finding pug trial groups on console....PC takes forever

cavakthestampede

I reat this on the Internet so it must be true.

FYI Google trends is not reliable because it only tracks specific search terms. If a person searches tamriel unlimited or TESO or thieves guild, or morrowind then it doesn't show up as ESO for Google trends.

Karius_Imalthar

I never search for "Elder Scrolls Online". I always type "ESO".

Balamoor

2.5k views on a lame uninteresting thread.

Yep games dying.

Rohamad_Ali

Balamoor wrote: »

2.5k views on a lame uninteresting thread.

Yep games dying.

OP clicked F5 250 times .

Jollygoodusername

I completely understand the OP here. My favorite MMO is The Secret World, I find it fun and challenging with great music and quests/missions that don't bore me. TSW is dead however, just like ESO will be if people continue to blow off current and past issues, while pushing the players away.

If you're not complaining, you're a part of the problem. That's generally what this thread seems to be about, too many biased fans of ESO who're content with everything, to notice that they're on the last roll of toilet paper.

EDIT: Pushing out new content doesn't equate to more players and more money. A good friend of mine is a professional glass blower/artist. He and his father spend all day creating pieces of new art, this doesn't mean that all/any of them will sell. Same applies to ESO: Morrowind which has an unlimited supply of digital content to sell. It's not doomsday thinking, it's just common sense and looking at other failings in the same MMO genre, should give hindsight.

Cadbury

As others have pointed out, using Google trends as the basis for a thesis on the "death" of an MMO is an example of inadequate research. The data is heavily skewered toward the OP's narrative.

I'm a hard-nosed skeptic, so I like to look at multiple angles before I make a judgement call. And this isn't doing it for me.

Rohamad_Ali

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

I completely understand the OP here. My favorite MMO is The Secret World, I find it fun and challenging with great music and quests/missions that don't bore me. TSW is dead however, just like ESO will be if people continue to blow off current and past issues, while pushing the players away.

If you're not complaining, you're a part of the problem. That's generally what this thread seems to be about, too many biased fans of ESO who're content with everything, to notice that they're on the last roll of toilet paper.

They are relaunching TSW as Secret World Legends . Beta is up . FunCom won't let it die .

Surak73

Yes, yes, but... where is the abstract?...

Cadbury

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

I completely understand the OP here. My favorite MMO is The Secret World, I find it fun and challenging with great music and quests/missions that don't bore me. TSW is dead however, just like ESO will be if people continue to blow off current and past issues, while pushing the players away.

If you're not complaining, you're a part of the problem. That's generally what this thread seems to be about, too many biased fans of ESO who're content with everything, to notice that they're on the last roll of toilet paper.

EDIT: Pushing out new content doesn't equate to more players and more money. A good friend of mine is a professional glass blower/artist. He and his father spend all day creating pieces of new art, this doesn't mean that all/any of them will sell. Same applies to ESO: Morrowind which has an unlimited supply of digital content to sell. It's not doomsday thinking, it's just common sense and looking at other failings in the same MMO genre, should give hindsight.

Maybe your friend would get more customers if they didn't nerf lungs. Not everyone can sustain blowing glass indefinitely.

helios777

They are killing off the veterans who have stuck by this game since the beginning by making ridiculous changes for morrowind. They don't care about the community they care about cash.

Tornaad

If you do a search for ESO instead you see a steadily increasing result set.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Please understand, I don't want this game to die. I actually have fun playing it when I do play it. I have met a lot of good people in this game. If anything it makes me sad (hence the Thread Title)

Statistics DO NOT lie only "manipulated statisitcs" do...of which no such manipulation has been done. Anyone can Google "Google Trends" type in ESO, The Elder Scrolls Online, etc and get the same exact unmanipulated results.

Google has invested Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars into Research and Development into research of Trends and Marketing, their entire business is based off it......They are right 9-out 10 times when it comes to this kinda stuff. They ahve a track record to prove it.

Accurate data taken out of context or applied inaccurately can more more inaccurate than inaccurate data.
Also the squeaky wheel gets the grease. A happy customer rarely voices their satisfaction, but an unhappy customer will rarely not voice their concerns.

Darlgon

cavakthestampede wrote: »

I reat this on the Internet so it must be true.

FYI Google trends is not reliable because it only tracks specific search terms. If a person searches tamriel unlimited or TESO or thieves guild, or morrowind then it doesn't show up as ESO for Google trends.

I also am forced to add here.. that Windows 10, forced on a lot of people, also tries to force people to use Cortana and Bing. It even removes Chrome. That alone would decrease the number of Google searches.

OP, your Google charts have a MAJOR flaw in them.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I love how every one of OP's rebuttals doesn't address the fact that Google analytics is worthless if you're only looking at one keyword search when dozens, even hundreds of related keyword searches are done by players who are actually in the game.

Add up all the "X guide ESO", "ESO forums", "ESO X builds", "ESO X DLC", AND all of the "Elder scrolls Online" searches, along with ALL the related fansite searches, and then you'll have real-ish, somewhat meaningful data about general interest in the game, and probably a good idea about game population.

You assume I only looked at one term....which again...is a wrong assumption.

Here is two quick images I was able to pull off my cloud drive(I don't have time to take and upload the 70+ terms I used, here is 4 for ya)







Adding up every single search term ever conceived for ESO is ridiclious and is not how trends are forecast. Google correlates multiple search queries related to ESO behind the scenes. Just searching on ESO on Google trends takes that query + a few hundred others and matches(such as ESO builds, ESO forums, ESO tips, etc) them together and correlates them against their search system worldwide...so that way you don't have to put in every single term.....if you have used their Adwords bidding program to show you the competition among various Adwords and various Adword terms related to yours, this is how it works.

Those are 4 examples of other such trends that show the same nosedive in 2015 after Imperial City release.

Again the game IMO is much better now then it was after IC release in 2015, but that's just my opinion which is of course biased.

Again, the data is there. I am not here to argue with personal biases, I am here to hopefully get ZOS to start thinking up more ideas to get more people to try ESO so we can have a larger player base. If you were not here in 2014 you don't know how many people there used to be...all the people you see in One Tamriel...times that by 10 with only your faction alone back then.

We should never settle for status quo, we should always try to improve and strive for more. Refusal to acknowledge a problem is a problem itself and does no one any good. Its not just about ESO game life....we need to make sure they make as much money as possible because future games from them depend on it....the more money they make, the more money they have for future games and current games...its in our best interests to try and get as many people to try ESO as possible.

the petty insults and defensive natures really have no place here, the thread isn't antagonistic in nature, but many people started right away to turn it into that.When in reality the threads purpose is to get them to attract more players.

So ... when do you expect it to die?

Again your asking a dishonest loaded question. How can i possibly make a guess when i really have no idea what their financial books look like?

they had a 300 million dollar investment from Providence Equity Partners in 2007

In 2010 they got an extra $150 million from the same investors

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/147886/500-million-to-make-eso/p1

Thats 450 million dollars right there alone...how much of that is left? I have no idea...they could operate in the red for years with that kinda capital....you know darn well your asking me a dishonest question that is impossible to answer without data im obviously missing.

So ... you have no idea when it will die. Only that it is dying?