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Why is Cliff Racer undoggeable?
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.
That's a reason, but not the most important one. It has to be undodgeable because other than a dot, mag wardens at least, don't have any other form of reliable dps. If you could roll dodge cliff racers wardens virtually wouldn't be able to touch any stam based char unless they mssd it up really hard.
Hmmm, but there are some things... what was the name... ah yeah... weapons...
weapons hmm, you mean a destro staff. Wait, are you refering to destructive touch? Is that what you think wardens should be slotting? ok..It's because they are trying to offset the warden having poor PvP DPS. TBH, they should have an undodgable ability, but it should not be ranged unless it gets changed to a channel.
It's obvious that not many tried to fight with a mag warden as a non support / healing ulti spamer. When they notice that they have nothing at it's disposal except a Dot and a ground aoe that continously fail to hit agaisnt any competent player they won't be asking for nerfs to the only reliable skill.
I was talking more about that skill called force pulse...
Ok, let me get this straight. You want cliff racer dodgeable, and suggest that wardens should pick force pulse on it's place, because, you can't also dodge those? Not to mention dropping a set piece, and that it just hits far less. Have you ever dueled as a mag warden?
You can use both, most to all classes do that.
Or do you think sorcs only use frags?
edit: in fact, racer undodgeable and unrefletable + force pulse = Dead DKEdited by Xvorg on May 4, 2017 6:07PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hm but my snipe has a 1 second cast time and flies extremely slow, why is it dodgeable again?
I think is a relatively fair point, but I'm interested to see damage comparisons between the two. There are a lot of things I can put here as a counter argument to this point, but instead of writing you a subjective novel I will ask instead, how do they actually compare, all things considered? Cast time and hang time are but 2 of the many factors involved here. Do you see Cliff Racer hitting for anywhere close to the same damage values as snipe, particularly from stealth (I am legitimately asking)? How many archers actually just spam snipe repeatedly in pvp instead of playing against the opponents' actions?
Based upon what I've seen so far, I find it very difficult to imagine anyone just spamming Cliff Racer (or snipe for that matter) and being productive. Afaik the Cliff Racer is pretty lame by itself, but quite good with appropriate timing alongside of other delayed burst damage, like the Shalk.Edited by Autolycus on May 4, 2017 6:15PM0 -
Hurika✭✭✭✭Can we start getting more abilities that are un-shieldable? We need the new class to be OP against magic and stamina to ensure more product sales.Edited by Hurika on May 4, 2017 6:20PM1 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.
They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.
Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.
If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambertEdited by ManDraKE on May 4, 2017 7:18PM3 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.
That's a reason, but not the most important one. It has to be undodgeable because other than a dot, mag wardens at least, don't have any other form of reliable dps. If you could roll dodge cliff racers wardens virtually wouldn't be able to touch any stam based char unless they mssd it up really hard.
Hmmm, but there are some things... what was the name... ah yeah... weapons...
weapons hmm, you mean a destro staff. Wait, are you refering to destructive touch? Is that what you think wardens should be slotting? ok..It's because they are trying to offset the warden having poor PvP DPS. TBH, they should have an undodgable ability, but it should not be ranged unless it gets changed to a channel.
It's obvious that not many tried to fight with a mag warden as a non support / healing ulti spamer. When they notice that they have nothing at it's disposal except a Dot and a ground aoe that continously fail to hit agaisnt any competent player they won't be asking for nerfs to the only reliable skill.
I was talking more about that skill called force pulse...
Ok, let me get this straight. You want cliff racer dodgeable, and suggest that wardens should pick force pulse on it's place, because, you can't also dodge those? Not to mention dropping a set piece, and that it just hits far less. Have you ever dueled as a mag warden?
You can use both, most to all classes do that.
Or do you think sorcs only use frags?
edit: in fact, racer undodgeable and unrefletable + force pulse = Dead DK
Only sorcs use force shock in pvp, and the only reason they use it is because they don't have a class spammable. Frag is not a spammable attack.Kena
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can we start getting more abilities that are un-shieldable? We need the new class to be OP against magic and stamina to ensure more product sales.
You mean shield breaker, burst combos and oblivion dmg enchants? Also that new set that does oblivion dmg that's scaled to your health will be another set.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can we start getting more abilities that are un-shieldable? We need the new class to be OP against magic and stamina to ensure more product sales.
You mean shield breaker, burst combos and oblivion dmg enchants? Also that new set that does oblivion dmg that's scaled to your health will be another set.
Or just 2+enemies... shields do not scale well.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
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Hurika✭✭✭✭Can we start getting more abilities that are un-shieldable? We need the new class to be OP against magic and stamina to ensure more product sales.
You mean shield breaker, burst combos and oblivion dmg enchants? Also that new set that does oblivion dmg that's scaled to your health will be another set.
Or just 2+enemies... shields do not scale well.
Hey I'd be fine with everything being dodgeable and you can have a 5pc dodgebreaker set along with oblivion dmg ignoring dodge if you're willing to give up 5pc + weapon enchants I'm totally for it. I think burst combo's are something both sides have so that's a bit of a wash.
I did forget that shields should allow casters to beat 2+ enemies. My bad.
Back to the original point - why should only 1 armor type have it's primary means of damage mitigation ignored by 1 specific class when ZoS stated their reasoning about when dodge should and shouldn't work and then immediately goes against it.Edited by Hurika on May 4, 2017 9:07PM1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can we start getting more abilities that are un-shieldable? We need the new class to be OP against magic and stamina to ensure more product sales.
You mean shield breaker, burst combos and oblivion dmg enchants? Also that new set that does oblivion dmg that's scaled to your health will be another set.
Or just 2+enemies... shields do not scale well.
Hey I'd be fine with everything being dodgeable and you can have a 5pc dodgebreaker set along with oblivion dmg ignoring dodge if you're willing to give up 5pc + weapon enchants I'm totally for it. I think burst combo's are something both sides have so that's a bit of a wash.
I did forget that shields should allow casters to beat 2+ enemies. My bad.
Back to the original point - why should only 1 armor type have it's primary means of damage mitigation ignored by 1 specific class when ZoS stated their reasoning about when dodge should and shouldn't work and then immediately goes against it.
Man what grest altfsatsy repositioning. Well done. George O would be proud.
Pointing out that shields dont stack well vs multiple enemies is obviously not saying they should make you able to beat 2+enemies and while you might want to decieve i hope you know thar. It does however point out the difference between wall-type defenses (shields, power absorbers, whatever a given game calls them) and sieve type defenses (mitigation, dodge, damage reduction, whatever the game calls it.) Walls have thresholds that when breached tend to let you die quick while sieves tend to cut the damage down for everything and so walls are only good in limited scaled engagements while sieves serve at all scales. Any reasonably seasoned games knows this difference.
As for the one class point... with its mythical ignoring primary blah blah... are you somehow trying to imply that every warden attack is undodgeable?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭
No it breaks cloak like everything else.thankyourat wrote: »Can you cloak it?
This is incorrect. You can cloak it. The point still stands though.2 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »Can you cloak it?
I know I was messing with @thankyourat thought I added a emoji.
No it breaks cloak like everything else.thankyourat wrote: »Can you cloak it?
This is incorrect. You can cloak it. The point still stands though.
0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.
They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.
Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.
If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder (unless my opponents are just not building properly maybe?) than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.Edited by Autolycus on May 5, 2017 3:09PM1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.
They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.
Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.
If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.
I can only guess you are not playing in medium, and are probably using S+B, as well as not playing anywhere near the open field.
Medium armors primary mitigation is to dodge. Secondary is to block. This has to do with having low armor and no extra resource or buff benefits from taking hits. Dodge already stacks in cost something Shield stackers don't have to deal with. Running medium requires running very high recovery and dodging early and often, while mixing in block to maximize resource management.
Here's the thing with undodgeable skills, in Medium you have no choice but to block and that drains stamina. Which is fine and dandy for every other dodgeable skill because there are limitations.
Curse for example, does not gain any DPS by being spammed.
Radiant is really only very effective below 30% health.
Jabby jabs, has small cone and is melee.
Soul Assault is an ultimate and cannot be spammed.
Lets consider the scenario, where in medium armor you are not within 5m of a tree or wall. If someone starts spamming cliff racer on you, what can you do?
Heal through the damage? No, you might be able to heal through 2-3 of them, but vigor and rally have their limitations. You see what makes vigor so strong for medium is the ability to dodge damage and allow the healing ticks to take effect.
Block? Well you can block some of the damage, but its an instant cast. So sure the first one is delayed, but once they are in full spam, you will get hit every second. As medium you cannot sustain block, letting up block means immediate heavy damage and requires healing but then you are using your stamina to heal, without mitigating inc damage and are back to square one.
CC? This is your best bet, but only works if you are in range of the person spamming it on you. If they position themselves well to begin with there is no chance of closing on them, it is infinitely worse than being spammed with snipe. It's an auto win in 2v1 situations against any stamina that is not a NB.
Whats left? Break LOS. This forces medium armor to remain next to LOS pillars or in zergs in order to avoid almost certain death against any warden who gets the jump on them.
What's clear with this issue? It is not significant to light armor shield stacking or heavy armor with S+B or possibly without S+B. Medium armor has already virtually gone the way of the dodo and this only makes it all the more worse to run medium.
I have run this and outside of NB's I wrecked medium builds, I was also wrecked by it as a medium build. I did use block and CC and sometimes was able to pressure my opponent enough to give myself room to LOS and heal. However often due to the delay itself, I didn't know I was being hit until it was far too late. Blocking only left me with no stamina in the open and in desperate need of a heal. Continual spam of the one skill meant I died anyways.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..2 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.
They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.
Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.
If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.
I can only guess you are not playing in medium, and are probably using S+B, as well as not playing anywhere near the open field.
Medium armors primary mitigation is to dodge. Secondary is to block. This has to do with having low armor and no extra resource or buff benefits from taking hits. Dodge already stacks in cost something Shield stackers don't have to deal with. Running medium requires running very high recovery and dodging early and often, while mixing in block to maximize resource management.
Here's the thing with undodgeable skills, in Medium you have no choice but to block and that drains stamina. Which is fine and dandy for every other dodgeable skill because there are limitations.
Curse for example, does not gain any DPS by being spammed.
Radiant is really only very effective below 30% health.
Jabby jabs, has small cone and is melee.
Soul Assault is an ultimate and cannot be spammed.
Lets consider the scenario, where in medium armor you are not within 5m of a tree or wall. If someone starts spamming cliff racer on you, what can you do?
Heal through the damage? No, you might be able to heal through 2-3 of them, but vigor and rally have their limitations. You see what makes vigor so strong for medium is the ability to dodge damage and allow the healing ticks to take effect.
Block? Well you can block some of the damage, but its an instant cast. So sure the first one is delayed, but once they are in full spam, you will get hit every second. As medium you cannot sustain block, letting up block means immediate heavy damage and requires healing but then you are using your stamina to heal, without mitigating inc damage and are back to square one.
CC? This is your best bet, but only works if you are in range of the person spamming it on you. If they position themselves well to begin with there is no chance of closing on them, it is infinitely worse than being spammed with snipe. It's an auto win in 2v1 situations against any stamina that is not a NB.
Whats left? Break LOS. This forces medium armor to remain next to LOS pillars or in zergs in order to avoid almost certain death against any warden who gets the jump on them.
What's clear with this issue? It is not significant to light armor shield stacking or heavy armor with S+B or possibly without S+B. Medium armor has already virtually gone the way of the dodo and this only makes it all the more worse to run medium.
I have run this and outside of NB's I wrecked medium builds, I was also wrecked by it as a medium build. I did use block and CC and sometimes was able to pressure my opponent enough to give myself room to LOS and heal. However often due to the delay itself, I didn't know I was being hit until it was far too late. Blocking only left me with no stamina in the open and in desperate need of a heal. Continual spam of the one skill meant I died anyways.
That's a pretty big wall of text considering I already know how to play this game, but thanks for the clarification I guess. You say what's left to do? CC and burst. No fight is won on the defensive. Create an opening and take it. If someone is stupid enough to stand there spamming a single skill over and over again, I'm going to force CC on them and punish them for spamming it. Similarly, in all medium I'd be pretty stupid to stand there and just try to block all of them, which is a losing battle for basically every spammable in this game. You can't expect me to believe that you will dodge every FP that comes your way; No, you will try to time accordingly and react appropriately. This is no different.
Also, if you're going to go this in-depth about it you might as well break it down by context too. Because your description of various counterplays here are most closely aligned with a duel-type setting, whereas in Cyro and BGs the implications are less severe because I have a team to work with. I play mostly with my friends and I understand not everyone has the luxury of a coordinated partner or group, but that's not Cliff Racer's mechanics that are to blame. You're not wrong in assessment on the various skills and counterplay to them, armor types, etc. I just want to point out that you're over-simplifying it to make your point stronger. It's quite unrealistic in a BG (at least given what I've seen so far) for me to stand in the center of the open field and just try to block a single person spamming this skill with no outside help, no attempt to LOS, and no attempt to CC or burst.
Again, I respect your right to disagree. But just because you disagree doesn't mean I need an L2P lesson. I'm quite proficient in this game, believe it or not. Anyway, we'll see what ZOS decides to do. There are still a couple weeks left to make changes before Live. I honestly wouldn't care if it become dodgeable; this all started because someone asked why and I provided the reason stated on ESO Live. The rest is irrelevant.Edited by Autolycus on May 5, 2017 3:48PM2 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder (unless my opponents are just not building properly maybe?) than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.
First of all, the skill hits hard, and even if you were right about the dmg, you are not taking in consideration open world pvp when you can have multiple ppl spamming this undodgeable thing on you. Blocking is not an alternative for many -if not all- builds that are not using 1H&S (specially with the changes to block in the upcoming patch).
As is said like 3 times already, if the skill is slow and clunky, then the solution is to fix the skill. Making the skill undodgeable just because "yeah, it sucks so lets make it undodgeable" is not even a valid point for a discussion. Going against the combat design of the game just because they didn't manage to make the skill work properly is not a solution. Skills are not dodgeable or undodgeable based in how they fell/perform ingame, in order to be undodgeable it needs to be a single-target channel or a AoE/Cone effect, otherwise is dodgeable (with the exception of ultimates that are treated differently)
A skill like this being undodgeable will be nothing more than a zerg tool to rekt medium armor builds, if ppl though Radiant destruction was bad, wait till we have a full zerg spamming this thing.Edited by ManDraKE on May 5, 2017 3:41PM3 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭When someone says heavydamage and dive in same sentence, I chuckle.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder (unless my opponents are just not building properly maybe?) than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.
First of all, the skill hits hard, and even if you were right about the dmg, you are not taking in consideration open world pvp when you can have multiple ppl spamming this undodgeable thing on you. Blocking is not an alternative for many -if not all- builds that are not using 1H&S (specially with the changes to block in the upcoming patch).
As is said like 3 times already, if the skill is slow and clunky, then the solution is to fix the skill. Making the skill undodgeable just because "yeah, it sucks so lets make it undodgeable" is not even a valid point for a discussion. Going against the combat design of the game just because they didn't manage to make the skill work properly is not a solution. Skills are not dodgeable or undodgeable based in how they fell/perform ingame, in order to be undodgeable it needs to be a single-target channel or a AoE/Cone effect, otherwise is dodgeable (with the exception of ultimates that are treated differently)
A skill like this being undodgeable will be nothing more than a zerg tool to rekt medium armor builds, if ppl though Radiant destruction was bad, wait till we have a full zerg spamming this thing.
"Like I said 3 times already..." Geez, relax! I mean, I too have already said like 3 times that I respect your right to disagree.... there's no need to be salty. Like it's my fault you hate the job ZOS did. Okay well I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. I also don't think my opinion is fact or law.
I addressed a couple of things respectfully and just from my perspective. Again (this makes at least four or five now, since we're keeping track) it's okay if you disagree with me. The counterplay has been sufficient in my experience thus far; surely you had to know that there would be people out there who don't think it's as big of a deal as you do. Now if you'll excuse me, there are less salty discussion in which to partake.
P.S. I wasn't ignoring the implications in open world pvp or in BGs, you just assumed so. There are a lot of factors at play there that I have considered, but I don't really see the point in addressing them anymore since this is now just a petty debate and not a real discussion.Edited by Autolycus on May 5, 2017 4:17PM0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭People who mostly 1vx immediately understand the problems with Dive and its morphs:)
Another problem that nobody seem to mention here is that dodging with a warden around essentially only wastes stam and puts dodge fatigue on you. You don't dodge for the fun of it. You dodge to recover. And since you can't stop your dodge in the middle to block the cliffracer- the fact that you decided to dodge puts you at a DISADVANTAGE. So you better NOT to dodge, which more or less kills medium armor builds. They can't really go like 'oh, that group of 5 has a warden, i better not to dodge':)
But even setting all that aside - what is really the point of making this skill delayed at all?
How does it make the skill more fun or easy to use?
The major justification from ZOS and some people on the forums is 'but it's delayed'. So why again is it delayed at the first place?:)
Why would we want to have a ranged spammable that hits its target even later than most other ranged skills? The disconnect between action (firing the skill) and feedback (skill hitting something) is so high, that it arguably makes the whole skill feel clunky and unenjoyable.
In terms of mechanics the skill behaves in the exact same way as if you put a mini-curse on your target that blows up in 0.5-1.5 sec, depending on your distance from the target. So why again this design is fun?
ps. About the part than some people (and ZOS) use as a argument from time to time - that you can see a 'portal' above warden's shoulder and thus notice the cliffracer coming at you - you probabely can, if you game camera is really close to your character:) If you play with a max distance 3rd person camera and look slightly 'down' (as many pvp'ers and myself do) - you don't really see the portal. At least i never do.Edited by Dorrino on May 5, 2017 5:49PM3 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.
That's a reason, but not the most important one. It has to be undodgeable because other than a dot, mag wardens at least, don't have any other form of reliable dps. If you could roll dodge cliff racers wardens virtually wouldn't be able to touch any stam based char unless they mssd it up really hard.
Hmmm, but there are some things... what was the name... ah yeah... weapons...
weapons hmm, you mean a destro staff. Wait, are you refering to destructive touch? Is that what you think wardens should be slotting? ok..It's because they are trying to offset the warden having poor PvP DPS. TBH, they should have an undodgable ability, but it should not be ranged unless it gets changed to a channel.
It's obvious that not many tried to fight with a mag warden as a non support / healing ulti spamer. When they notice that they have nothing at it's disposal except a Dot and a ground aoe that continously fail to hit agaisnt any competent player they won't be asking for nerfs to the only reliable skill.
I was talking more about that skill called force pulse...
Ok, let me get this straight. You want cliff racer dodgeable, and suggest that wardens should pick force pulse on it's place, because, you can't also dodge those? Not to mention dropping a set piece, and that it just hits far less. Have you ever dueled as a mag warden?
You can use both, most to all classes do that.
Or do you think sorcs only use frags?NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.
That's a reason, but not the most important one. It has to be undodgeable because other than a dot, mag wardens at least, don't have any other form of reliable dps. If you could roll dodge cliff racers wardens virtually wouldn't be able to touch any stam based char unless they mssd it up really hard.
Hmmm, but there are some things... what was the name... ah yeah... weapons...
weapons hmm, you mean a destro staff. Wait, are you refering to destructive touch? Is that what you think wardens should be slotting? ok..It's because they are trying to offset the warden having poor PvP DPS. TBH, they should have an undodgable ability, but it should not be ranged unless it gets changed to a channel.
It's obvious that not many tried to fight with a mag warden as a non support / healing ulti spamer. When they notice that they have nothing at it's disposal except a Dot and a ground aoe that continously fail to hit agaisnt any competent player they won't be asking for nerfs to the only reliable skill.
I was talking more about that skill called force pulse...
Ok, let me get this straight. You want cliff racer dodgeable, and suggest that wardens should pick force pulse on it's place, because, you can't also dodge those? Not to mention dropping a set piece, and that it just hits far less. Have you ever dueled as a mag warden?
You can use both, most to all classes do that.
Or do you think sorcs only use frags?
edit: in fact, racer undodgeable and unrefletable + force pulse = Dead DK
Only sorcs use force shock in pvp, and the only reason they use it is because they don't have a class spammable. Frag is not a spammable attack.
Being a slow projectile, you can complement it with force pulse, the same way yo can do it with snipe and poison arrow.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
Vitaely✭✭✭Short answer: Because they don't want people to start dodging every time they see something flying at them.
ZOS' point of view is, combat should nuances where you should react to what's coming at you rather than mindlessly dodgeroll every incoming damage. Therefore if you see the cliffracer flying at you , you get 3 options: Shield, Heal or Block.
Honestly I don't see what the problem is, a single tick of Vigor can outheal that skill. A single shield can handle 2-3 hits easily.
Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.Edited by Vitaely on May 5, 2017 6:44PMFactotum | PC NAAD E'lurin sNB | Curufinwë Fëanor mDK | Anaïs Le Fey mSC | Fréyja mT | Nïenna mW
EP E'lured sNB | Vanÿa sT | Caïssä mDK
DC E'lwing mNB
PVE Brýnhildur mDK | E'lectra sSC | Antígone sDK | Valkýrja mNB | Yølanda sW0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Short answer: Because they don't want people to start dodging every time they see something flying at them.
But that's the whole point of dodge. To avoid something that you see flying at you. Block does the same, shields do the same. Following this logic cliffracer out of all skills has to be unblockable and unshieldable.ZOS' point of view is, combat should nuances where you should react to what's coming at you rather than mindlessly dodgeroll every incoming damage.
Out of all defense types in the game, 'mindless' can be attributed to block, shields and heals. Dodge is the least mindless defense type because of dodge fatigue.Therefore if you see the cliffracer flying at you , you get 3 options: Shield, Heal or Block.
Why dodge specifically gets excluded and not any of the others or not all of them?
Imagine cliffracer going through shields, would you understand concerns of light armor sorcs and mightblades in this case?Honestly I don't see what the problem is, a single tick of Vigor can outheal that skill.
Cliffracer tooltip is higher than that of a surprise attack. A single tick of vigor can't outheal that.A single shield can handle 2-3 hits easily.
But it's so easy to notice cliffracer coming at you and shield the damage! Can't allow cliffracer to get shielded!Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.
It's not the damage. It's the damage unavoidable by one single defense mechanism.3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Short answer: Because they don't want people to start dodging every time they see something flying at them.
ZOS' point of view is, combat should nuances where you should react to what's coming at you rather than mindlessly dodgeroll every incoming damage. Therefore if you see the cliffracer flying at you , you get 3 options: Shield, Heal or Block.
Honestly I don't see what the problem is, a single tick of Vigor can outheal that skill. A single shield can handle 2-3 hits easily.
Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.
So a move that hits harder than Surprise Attack with a 28m range can be out-healed by a single tic from vigor? Or how about the AoE that hits as hard as wrecking blow? Yeah poor weak Warden. This Warden has no burst nonsense may work on someone that doesn't have access to Morrowind, but it won't work on any honest individual that has actually played the class.1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.
They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.
Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.
If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.
I can only guess you are not playing in medium, and are probably using S+B, as well as not playing anywhere near the open field.
Medium armors primary mitigation is to dodge. Secondary is to block. This has to do with having low armor and no extra resource or buff benefits from taking hits. Dodge already stacks in cost something Shield stackers don't have to deal with. Running medium requires running very high recovery and dodging early and often, while mixing in block to maximize resource management.
Here's the thing with undodgeable skills, in Medium you have no choice but to block and that drains stamina. Which is fine and dandy for every other dodgeable skill because there are limitations.
Curse for example, does not gain any DPS by being spammed.
Radiant is really only very effective below 30% health.
Jabby jabs, has small cone and is melee.
Soul Assault is an ultimate and cannot be spammed.
Lets consider the scenario, where in medium armor you are not within 5m of a tree or wall. If someone starts spamming cliff racer on you, what can you do?
Heal through the damage? No, you might be able to heal through 2-3 of them, but vigor and rally have their limitations. You see what makes vigor so strong for medium is the ability to dodge damage and allow the healing ticks to take effect.
Block? Well you can block some of the damage, but its an instant cast. So sure the first one is delayed, but once they are in full spam, you will get hit every second. As medium you cannot sustain block, letting up block means immediate heavy damage and requires healing but then you are using your stamina to heal, without mitigating inc damage and are back to square one.
CC? This is your best bet, but only works if you are in range of the person spamming it on you. If they position themselves well to begin with there is no chance of closing on them, it is infinitely worse than being spammed with snipe. It's an auto win in 2v1 situations against any stamina that is not a NB.
Whats left? Break LOS. This forces medium armor to remain next to LOS pillars or in zergs in order to avoid almost certain death against any warden who gets the jump on them.
What's clear with this issue? It is not significant to light armor shield stacking or heavy armor with S+B or possibly without S+B. Medium armor has already virtually gone the way of the dodo and this only makes it all the more worse to run medium.
I have run this and outside of NB's I wrecked medium builds, I was also wrecked by it as a medium build. I did use block and CC and sometimes was able to pressure my opponent enough to give myself room to LOS and heal. However often due to the delay itself, I didn't know I was being hit until it was far too late. Blocking only left me with no stamina in the open and in desperate need of a heal. Continual spam of the one skill meant I died anyways.
That's a pretty big wall of text considering I already know how to play this game, but thanks for the clarification I guess. You say what's left to do? CC and burst. No fight is won on the defensive. Create an opening and take it. If someone is stupid enough to stand there spamming a single skill over and over again, I'm going to force CC on them and punish them for spamming it. Similarly, in all medium I'd be pretty stupid to stand there and just try to block all of them, which is a losing battle for basically every spammable in this game. You can't expect me to believe that you will dodge every FP that comes your way; No, you will try to time accordingly and react appropriately. This is no different.
Also, if you're going to go this in-depth about it you might as well break it down by context too. Because your description of various counterplays here are most closely aligned with a duel-type setting, whereas in Cyro and BGs the implications are less severe because I have a team to work with. I play mostly with my friends and I understand not everyone has the luxury of a coordinated partner or group, but that's not Cliff Racer's mechanics that are to blame. You're not wrong in assessment on the various skills and counterplay to them, armor types, etc. I just want to point out that you're over-simplifying it to make your point stronger. It's quite unrealistic in a BG (at least given what I've seen so far) for me to stand in the center of the open field and just try to block a single person spamming this skill with no outside help, no attempt to LOS, and no attempt to CC or burst.
Again, I respect your right to disagree. But just because you disagree doesn't mean I need an L2P lesson. I'm quite proficient in this game, believe it or not. Anyway, we'll see what ZOS decides to do. There are still a couple weeks left to make changes before Live. I honestly wouldn't care if it become dodgeable; this all started because someone asked why and I provided the reason stated on ESO Live. The rest is irrelevant.
I apologize if in my zeal I responded in a patronizing manner.
I face this type of situation very regularly, as I play solo often, and when playing solo I cannot consistently rely on my allies to aide me. All to often I get jumped and my supposed allies prance away leaving me to die.
I found Dive to be incredibly lethal against stamina medium builds, both killing them with it and being killed by it. The delay allows it to be stacked with other attacks and when combined with a CC I found to spell almost certain death for medium builds.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Short answer: Because they don't want people to start dodging every time they see something flying at them.
ZOS' point of view is, combat should nuances where you should react to what's coming at you rather than mindlessly dodgeroll every incoming damage. Therefore if you see the cliffracer flying at you , you get 3 options: Shield, Heal or Block.
Honestly I don't see what the problem is, a single tick of Vigor can outheal that skill. A single shield can handle 2-3 hits easily.
Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.
I don't know what game your playing but my vigor is only ticking for 1.5k and that skill is hitting me for 5-6k with over 3k crit resistance. Vigor isn't healing through it.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Vitaely✭✭✭Short answer: Because they don't want people to start dodging every time they see something flying at them.
But that's the whole point of dodge. To avoid something that you see flying at you. Block does the same, shields do the same. Following this logic cliffracer out of all skills has to be unblockable and unshieldable.ZOS' point of view is, combat should nuances where you should react to what's coming at you rather than mindlessly dodgeroll every incoming damage.
Out of all defense types in the game, 'mindless' can be attributed to block, shields and heals. Dodge is the least mindless defense type because of dodge fatigue.Therefore if you see the cliffracer flying at you , you get 3 options: Shield, Heal or Block.
Why dodge specifically gets excluded and not any of the others or not all of them?
Imagine cliffracer going through shields, would you understand concerns of light armor sorcs and mightblades in this case?Honestly I don't see what the problem is, a single tick of Vigor can outheal that skill.
Cliffracer tooltip is higher than that of a surprise attack. A single tick of vigor can't outheal that.A single shield can handle 2-3 hits easily.
But it's so easy to notice cliffracer coming at you and shield the damage! Can't allow cliffracer to get shielded!Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.
It's not the damage. It's the damage unavoidable by one single defense mechanism.
You're so mad at me I'm giving you an awesome Miat.
Everyone comparing this skill to surprise attack: It has a huge range, but lacks any additional effect (other than the ult gain passive). Surprise attack gives you penetration also passive resistance.
edit: Also they don't have additional burst to pop you in that range. (I'm looking at you sorcs...)Edited by Vitaely on May 5, 2017 7:11PMFactotum | PC NAAD E'lurin sNB | Curufinwë Fëanor mDK | Anaïs Le Fey mSC | Fréyja mT | Nïenna mW
EP E'lured sNB | Vanÿa sT | Caïssä mDK
DC E'lwing mNB
PVE Brýnhildur mDK | E'lectra sSC | Antígone sDK | Valkýrja mNB | Yølanda sW0 -
Zaldan✭✭✭✭✭Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.
(this information was on the first ESO Live that showed the Warden)
things are not doggeable or undoggeable based in how hard/easy to see the visual effect is. Single target instant-cast abilities are doggeable, that is how the combat is. In order to be undoggeable it needs to be a channeled ability.
If they want the ability to be undoggeable, then it needs to be a channel, like jabs or radiant.
if any class is weak in a certain area there are other skill lines available to supplement, ZO$ opinion not mine (eso live)1
