Why is Cliff Racer undoggeable?

Vitaely

If you want a better comparison for this skill, try Flame Reach. It's just as slow at long range, meaning it's just as dodgeable. I think damage-wise they're at the same ballpark, unlike Snipe.

I'm not defending whether or not this skill is dodgeable, I'm repeating what any other ZOS person will tell you. Are we watching the same ESO lives and reading the same patch notes?

Zaldan wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.

(this information was on the first ESO Live that showed the Warden)

things are not doggeable or undoggeable based in how hard/easy to see the visual effect is. Single target instant-cast abilities are doggeable, that is how the combat is. In order to be undoggeable it needs to be a channeled ability.

If they want the ability to be undoggeable, then it needs to be a channel, like jabs or radiant.

if any class is weak in a certain area there are other skill lines available to supplement, ZO$ opinion not mine (eso live)

pretty much.

danno8

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Their reasoning stated is because it would be too easy to dodge. I say if that's the case it needs to be changed visually so it's not so easy to dodge, but that's just me.

(this information was on the first ESO Live that showed the Warden)

It's a spammable.

If the person is dodge rolling it, they'll run out of stam before the Warden runs out of whatever he's casting it with. Making it undodgeable is not solving any problem because there is no problem to begin with. It's just removing counterplay to make the new class stronger.

By ZOS' logic, any ranged spammable with a travel time should be undodgeable like this ability. Where's my undodgeable Funnel Health? lol

Or my undodgable Dark Flare. Long cast time flowed by the longest travel time of any projectile in the game, barring Orbs, lol.

ManDraKE

Autolycus wrote: »

"Like I said 3 times already..." Geez, relax! I mean, I too have already said like 3 times that I respect your right to disagree.... there's no need to be salty. Like it's my fault you hate the job ZOS did. Okay well I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. I also don't think my opinion is fact or law.

I'm not salty, i didn't know that saying "Like I said 3 times already..." can be interpreted as me being annoyed or something like that. Sometimes is hard to express the idea and the feeling while writing in another language.

Vitaely wrote: »

Warden's damage is the least of our issues in class balance atm.

That is not the point. For example, shield breaker doesn't have enough damage to actually kill a mag sorc, but if there is a dude spamming bow light attacks with it, while you are being pressured by others, that small -but unavoidable- damage will get you kill. Replace shield breaker with Cliff Racer and shields with dodge roll, and you have the same situaiton, unavoidable damage that bypass you main defensive ability.

Dorrino

Vitaely wrote: »

You're so mad at me I'm giving you an awesome Miat.

Why everybody perceive me as angry?:D

Vitaely wrote: »

Everyone comparing this skill to surprise attack: It has a huge range, but lacks any additional effect (other than the ult gain passive). Surprise attack gives you penetration also passive resistance.

The point is that being an undodgable spammable is much stronger than any effects that you listed:) if SA had just that i'd take it over current version in a heartbeat. Major Breach is ~8% damage. Undodgable is 100% damage instead of 0%. I'd be more than fine with that trade-off.

Vitaely wrote: »

edit: Also they don't have additional burst to pop you in that range. (I'm looking at you sorcs...)

Dive is a slight (but notable) problem 1v1. But is a huge problem from 2v1 on.

sly007

ManDraKE wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.

They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.

Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.

If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Exactly. It Is so annoying that every other single target instant cast ability is dodgeable but all of a sudden, someone decided to make this skill undodgeable. Seriously? Why. Might as well make snipe and frag undodgeable.

mbn89

...seriously? Because they are just too fast to dodge bro... We call them Cliff Racers NOT Cliff Weekend Joggers....jeeze man


Serious Note: Probably a bug?

ManDraKE

Bump -.-

SanTii.92

ManDraKE wrote: »

Bump -.-

I agree on essence, but this can't be done without throwing a bone to poor mwardens. They are terrible enough.

Autolycus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Is not a channeled attack, is an instant cast, why is undoggeable? the last thing we need in this game is another spameable ranged undoggeable skill.

They addressed this on ESO Live. It's because it is extremely easy to see coming and is not instant damage like most spammables are; there is a moderate delay before any damage actually occurs. The nature of this skill, if it could be dodged, would render it almost useless as it will be countered too easily to be balanced for the caster. There is still plenty of counterplay to it without it being dodgeable.

Leaving cliff racer as it is on the PTS now, is going against everything they did in the previous iteration of the PTS. First they said "we want abilities to have a consistent behaviour", changed jabs and a buch of other abilities to reflect that and keep the combat consistent, and 3 months latter they do the opposite by creating a single target, instant-cast undoggeable ability..... is absurd.

If they want Cliff Racer to be undoggeable, make it a channel. If they want Cliff Racer to be instant cast, make it doggeable and change the animation to make it more hard to avoid/dodge (like forcepulse, posion arrow, etc)

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

I respectfully disagree. This "instant cast" skill is barely tickling me at best on PTS because I have ample time to see it coming to block it. I respect your right to disagree, but from where I'm sitting this skill is not overperforming relative to other instant cast abilities. I know it's coming before it even appears above the Warden's head; the same is not true for something like FP or Poison Arrow which we are, I think, pretending is easier to avoid simply because we're used to it. To some extent you're right in that we can technically fully avoid the damage on other skills. But this skill is slow and clunky, and really only effective when used in combination with other skills. That makes it complex by nature; you have to know how to use it properly for it to really be effective. Plus skills like FP hit harder than the Cliff Racer and come with a plethora of other potential benefits, like proccing burning and concussion, for example.

I can only guess you are not playing in medium, and are probably using S+B, as well as not playing anywhere near the open field.

Medium armors primary mitigation is to dodge. Secondary is to block. This has to do with having low armor and no extra resource or buff benefits from taking hits. Dodge already stacks in cost something Shield stackers don't have to deal with. Running medium requires running very high recovery and dodging early and often, while mixing in block to maximize resource management.

Here's the thing with undodgeable skills, in Medium you have no choice but to block and that drains stamina. Which is fine and dandy for every other dodgeable skill because there are limitations.

Curse for example, does not gain any DPS by being spammed.
Radiant is really only very effective below 30% health.
Jabby jabs, has small cone and is melee.
Soul Assault is an ultimate and cannot be spammed.

Lets consider the scenario, where in medium armor you are not within 5m of a tree or wall. If someone starts spamming cliff racer on you, what can you do?

Heal through the damage? No, you might be able to heal through 2-3 of them, but vigor and rally have their limitations. You see what makes vigor so strong for medium is the ability to dodge damage and allow the healing ticks to take effect.

Block? Well you can block some of the damage, but its an instant cast. So sure the first one is delayed, but once they are in full spam, you will get hit every second. As medium you cannot sustain block, letting up block means immediate heavy damage and requires healing but then you are using your stamina to heal, without mitigating inc damage and are back to square one.

CC? This is your best bet, but only works if you are in range of the person spamming it on you. If they position themselves well to begin with there is no chance of closing on them, it is infinitely worse than being spammed with snipe. It's an auto win in 2v1 situations against any stamina that is not a NB.

Whats left? Break LOS. This forces medium armor to remain next to LOS pillars or in zergs in order to avoid almost certain death against any warden who gets the jump on them.


What's clear with this issue? It is not significant to light armor shield stacking or heavy armor with S+B or possibly without S+B. Medium armor has already virtually gone the way of the dodo and this only makes it all the more worse to run medium.

I have run this and outside of NB's I wrecked medium builds, I was also wrecked by it as a medium build. I did use block and CC and sometimes was able to pressure my opponent enough to give myself room to LOS and heal. However often due to the delay itself, I didn't know I was being hit until it was far too late. Blocking only left me with no stamina in the open and in desperate need of a heal. Continual spam of the one skill meant I died anyways.

That's a pretty big wall of text considering I already know how to play this game, but thanks for the clarification I guess. You say what's left to do? CC and burst. No fight is won on the defensive. Create an opening and take it. If someone is stupid enough to stand there spamming a single skill over and over again, I'm going to force CC on them and punish them for spamming it. Similarly, in all medium I'd be pretty stupid to stand there and just try to block all of them, which is a losing battle for basically every spammable in this game. You can't expect me to believe that you will dodge every FP that comes your way; No, you will try to time accordingly and react appropriately. This is no different.

Also, if you're going to go this in-depth about it you might as well break it down by context too. Because your description of various counterplays here are most closely aligned with a duel-type setting, whereas in Cyro and BGs the implications are less severe because I have a team to work with. I play mostly with my friends and I understand not everyone has the luxury of a coordinated partner or group, but that's not Cliff Racer's mechanics that are to blame. You're not wrong in assessment on the various skills and counterplay to them, armor types, etc. I just want to point out that you're over-simplifying it to make your point stronger. It's quite unrealistic in a BG (at least given what I've seen so far) for me to stand in the center of the open field and just try to block a single person spamming this skill with no outside help, no attempt to LOS, and no attempt to CC or burst.

Again, I respect your right to disagree. But just because you disagree doesn't mean I need an L2P lesson. I'm quite proficient in this game, believe it or not. Anyway, we'll see what ZOS decides to do. There are still a couple weeks left to make changes before Live. I honestly wouldn't care if it become dodgeable; this all started because someone asked why and I provided the reason stated on ESO Live. The rest is irrelevant.

I apologize if in my zeal I responded in a patronizing manner.

I face this type of situation very regularly, as I play solo often, and when playing solo I cannot consistently rely on my allies to aide me. All to often I get jumped and my supposed allies prance away leaving me to die.

I found Dive to be incredibly lethal against stamina medium builds, both killing them with it and being killed by it. The delay allows it to be stacked with other attacks and when combined with a CC I found to spell almost certain death for medium builds.

I can totally get behind a case like yours. My opinion on Dive isn't popular and I understand why; I'll certainly admit that in examples like yours my case doesn't look as strong. But maybe what we need is to reevaluate medium armor and make it better. I've certainly seen a lot on the forums about rebalancing medium and I can't say I disagree with most of it frankly. In all my walls of text this is probably my strongest point... perhaps the skill isn't totally unbalanced (heavy builds and ward spammers aren't facing the same issues), but I totally understand why it's so punishing for a medium armor build; I get it, I see it. Let's reevaluate that.