Impact of mage champion point rebalances

GilGalad

Invoky wrote: »

Does CP star like Spell shield, Resistant, and Piercing not have jump point because they give flat bonus value like gears?

No they should not have any jump points. I use these stars to spend my remaining points after I reached jump points in the other stars.

Magıc wrote: »

What were the previous jump points? Surprised no "famous" player has mentioned anything about this.

Only Elfborn/precise strikes used to have jump points, what many players knew, but ignoring it meant you only wasted a maximum of around 3-4 points, so it wasn't a big deal.

RoyJade

Old Elfborn / Precise strike jump point : 1,2,4,7,9,12,15,18,22,26,29,33,38,42,46,51,56,61,66,71,76,81,87,92, and 98.
These news one are really different.

Asayre

I've put in the current jump points in the OP and a link to a partial list of ability damage classifications like whether it is single target or AoE and which CP affects an ability. Pretty mundane stuff

F7sus4

@Asayre I know it's not directly related to blue CP changes, but it's definitely interconnected and important. I mean the new Ironclad % direct-damage reduction passive. The question is which PvE enemies' skills are affected and which not? With all tests so far - it smoothly applies to player skills from the spreadsheet, however things start to complicate a lot with many/most (?) PvE mob/bosses' skills. It doesn't seem to work consistently, even if subjective criteria of being "direct damage" are met. Is it somehow possible to dig into the matter and get overall check on how many enemies skills/abilities are affected by it and how many aren't? I'm trying to bring attention to it, as it would greatly help spreading current red CPs in 3.0.x.

Asayre

@F7sus4, that is an interesting topic. It will require just sitting at a boss and taking damage with and without CP to see how monster damage is classified. I can do it for any dungeon mob but I feel you are more interested in raid situations. That will be much more challenging data to access.

Autolycus

Thanks to everyone disclosing and explaining this information. I don't think we (the community) adequately show our appreciation for the leg work you all do, nor the time you spend to communicate it all to us. Cheers!

F7sus4

I might be wrong, but I suspect that while player skills were relatevily easy to categorize, many mobs/bosses' specific skills simply aren't flagged as "direct damage" in ESO's code thus aren't subject to the Ironclad x% reduction.

I hoped it's possible to get the data via disassembling etc. but to test every single mob/boss' skill via trial-and-error feels completely sisyphean.

Ajintse

Hi,

I thank you for your time to get this done. But I don't understand how and what you have described. I mean, I am not good in math. But, I have tested your CP Optimization website. I have no idea what i'm doing. I am a Nightblade magicka DD. I use direct damage. Can anyone help me out to optimize my champion points for CP518?

Asayre

@F7sus4

To me there appears to be two parts to your question, the first is does Ironclad work with mobs and the answer is yes on some attacks. For example, Bloodspawn does 3 kinds of attacks, Claw, Vicious Smash and Cave In. Below is a screenshot of my damage taken without any CP in Ironclad

And then with 9% in Ironclad.


The second questions which is more difficult to answer is what is the best red tree distribution. This will involve standing at trial bosses for quite a while and determining what attacks are blocked and those that are not. I think it will provide valuable data but I don't think I can easily convince people to get me to a boss and then just leave me be for like 5-10 minutes to get enough data so it's probably out of my reach.

@Ekstak21, maybe take a look at Jeckll's guide? Maybe that will help a bit.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Asayre wrote: »

@F7sus4

To me there appears to be two parts to your question, the first is does Ironclad work with mobs and the answer is yes on some attacks. For example, Bloodspawn does 3 kinds of attacks, Claw, Vicious Smash and Cave In. Below is a screenshot of my damage taken without any CP in Ironclad

And then with 9% in Ironclad.


The second questions which is more difficult to answer is what is the best red tree distribution. This will involve standing at trial bosses for quite a while and determining what attacks are blocked and those that are not. I think it will provide valuable data but I don't think I can easily convince people to get me to a boss and then just leave me be for like 5-10 minutes to get enough data so it's probably out of my reach.

@Ekstak21, maybe take a look at Jeckll's guide? Maybe that will help a bit.

I would totally be down for helping you with this, need a time and place, I am PC NA.

Solinur

Asayre wrote: »

The webpage if anyone is interested is http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html. And thanks to @decay for hosting it!

Its actually @Solinur in this forum

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

HuawaSepp

Solinur wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

The webpage if anyone is interested is http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html. And thanks to @decay for hosting it!

Its actually @Solinur in this forum

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

The calculator is very helpful and an addon that calculates everything sounds just awesome!

fgoron2000

Thanks to all for all the hard work that went into pulling all this knowledge together for the community. I noticed that there are lists for the jump points for the 15/25/35 categories but although it's noted as having jump points, I haven't found a list of jump points for the 55 category, which appears to include only befoul?

dpencil1

@fgoron2000 The principle is simple. Only full integers count. 10.1% and 10.9% both give you 10.0%.

fgoron2000

dpencil1 wrote: »

@fgoron2000 The principle is simple. Only full integers count. 10.1% and 10.9% both give you 10.0%.

I see that, but I didn't know why there were lists of jump points for the 15/25/35 but not for 55. Didn't know if there was something different about it...

RoyJade

Well, there is a lot of 15/25/35 and nearly all are useful and used a lot, when they are only a few 55.

Asayre

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO Thanks for the generous offer. But actually a damage taken parse from Combat Metrics and a calculator can accomplish the same thing. You'll just have to guess (educately) the damage type of the abilities done to you. I stood around at the Manticora and the Twin Hunters (in Halls of Fabrication) and I was able to guess the damage type quite accurately. So I made an equivalent calculator for optimising Warrior CP distribution

http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/WarriorCPOptimisation.html

It does roughly the same thing as the Mage CP optimisation but you can put you can use parses where you have CP assigned and put your current CP assigment and it'll renormalise and stuff and then make a suggestion. Everything else is about the same.

When assigning Warrior CP, it is recommended to put points into Hardy/Elemental Defender before Ironclad/Thick Skinned.

Thanks to @Solinur for hosting it =D

raaphor

Asayre wrote: »

@F7sus4

The second questions which is more difficult to answer is what is the best red tree distribution. This will involve standing at trial bosses for quite a while and determining what attacks are blocked and those that are not. I think it will provide valuable data but I don't think I can easily convince people to get me to a boss and then just leave me be for like 5-10 minutes to get enough data so it's probably out of my reach.

.

If you are on PC/EU I'm willing to help you with that (i'm in CEST timezone)

Solinur

Solinur wrote: »

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

I posted a test version of that addon here: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/11/#post-683379

Solinur

fgoron2000 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@fgoron2000 The principle is simple. Only full integers count. 10.1% and 10.9% both give you 10.0%.

I see that, but I didn't know why there were lists of jump points for the 15/25/35 but not for 55. Didn't know if there was something different about it...

I just checked and for the 55% CP using the tooltips and ignore the decimals works. (Which sometimes doesn't for 25% CP and 35% CP)

GilGalad

Solinur wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

I posted a test version of that addon here: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/11/#post-683379

The addon looks really nice and I'm looking forward to the combination with combat metrics!

Shadowshire

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think they need to add front-loading of power to stats and resources, too. Like 4000 spell damage should not have 100% more impact on your abilities as 2000 spell damage. .... That would go a lot further to "Lower the Ceiling/Raise the Floor" than blanket nerfs to sustain and skills and sets, which tend to hurt average player a lot more than the elite/optimized/min-max players.

Instead of unmodified linear increases in damage inflicted (or reduced, e.g., by armor) as a character's experience increases (Character Level), there are two alternatives:

(A) Exponential increases in damage instead of linear. However, they eventually make the numbers so large, as the number of Levels increase, that the effects of the difference in value become unrecognizable and, ultimately, preposterous. Originally, Blizzard Entertainment designed World of Warcraft with exponential increases in damage with each increase in Character Level. When they recognized the prospective consequences of continuing to use that method, they switched to linear increases in damage (and reduction) with the release of WoW 6.0 Warlords of Draenor. That had the effect of universally reducing all the numbers for damage and for damage reduction from as many as four integer digits to two.

(B) Linear increases in damage (or exponential increases in damage), but with "diminishing returns", i.e., benefit. This method creates a "soft cap" for each ability at each Character Level. Eventually each increase in Character Level has a negligible effect upon the character's abilities to inflict, avoid, or mitigate damage. In effect, no matter how much Experience a character accumulates, they cannot become invulnerable in combat with characters that have less Experience.

Note that the context of each respective method is associated with the idea that, as a character's experience increases, so does the amount of damage that the character can inflict. The use of "magic" aside, in the physical realm, the damage which an expert does with a specific type of sword is not, ordinarily, any more than the damage done by a less experienced fighter with the same sword.

What does differ is the likelihood (probability) that the wielder of the sword will hit the target, and whether they will hit the target in a "critical" place. Also, an expert swordsman is much more likely to survive combat with two or three less expert swordsmen, by crippling or killing one or more of them before they can cripple or kill him. But not because he does more damage with each hit, but because he has significantly more meaningful hits against his respective targets. Also, some weapons can be used to parry the intended blow from some other weapons, reducing the likelihood that the blow will inflict damage and/or mitigating the damage which the blow will do if it strikes. Parries, blocks, and moves to avoid being hit are either neglected or minimized in the design of most game combat systems with which I have experience.

Which also leads to three facts: (1) different weapons can inflict differing amounts of damage -- as well as kinds of damage -- when they strike; (2) some weapons are easier to use than others; and (3) that some weapons cannot be used effectively by everyone who might want to use them. It is very tempting for game designers to want to gloss-over one or more of these facts, for whatever reason(s).

By the way, I'd love to explain how this approach works for Magic, too, but these remarks are already likely to make your eyes glaze over.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

It is the linearity of power in so many aspects of this game that makes min/max builds so much better than average builds. I don't want a return to soft caps. .... The soft caps made you hit a pretty stiff wall and while they did lead to people spreading out stats, most everyone just spread out stats in same way. .... There were lots of problems with the pre-CP system. ....

The Champion Point system is the alternative to continuing to increase the Character Level as a character gains more experience. Instead, more "experience" allows players to choose whether their respective character(s) can increase, mitigate, or avoid damage, and/or can increase the utility of non-combat abilities.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

It was like soft caps sent you off a cliff after a certain point. Current design is nearly linear ascent. Some happy medium, with more smoothly diminishing returns in all aspects of player power, CP and stats, would be more effective balance than the constant (and largely ineffective) blanket nerfs to everything to combat this highly linear power trajectory.

It seems to me that it will prove impossible to find a "happy medium" given the fundamental assumptions of the ESO design, as I've endeavored to explain. I doubt that ZOS can sustain its "prototyping" approach to developing ESO indefinitely. At some point, the game design must be finished. Which is not to say that the bugs which the game software and the megaserver have cannot be remedied, but that few of them are likely to be remedied because, when the game design is finished, it is possible for players to finish playing the game and start playing some other game instead. Naturally.

Shadowshire

@Asayre

Asayre wrote: »

As is well known, the PTS has introduced significant changes to the mage champion point system notably

• Capped impact of increasing CP on maximum stat at 20% (On Live, maximum increase is 19.88)
• Spell Erosion no longer has any impact (it is assumed that this will work correctly soon)
• Introduction of Master-at-Arms
• Front loading of passives
• Damage done and Champion Point bonus are not additive instead of multiplicative. This implies that stacking Damage Done is less effective now but stacking Damage Taken (on the enemy) is more effective.
• Flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer

(1) Please explain "Spell Erosion no longer has any impact (it is assumed that this will work correctly soon)". Do you mean that the feature is broken on the PTS Morrowind software? On the current live version 3.0.5 software, Spell Erosion is still a "star" on the Champion Point (CP) User Interface (UI). Whether it currently has any impact on combat, I have no knowledge or means to determine. If Spell Erosion doesn't work, then should we still distribute CPs to it on the assumption that ZOS will remedy the bug?

(2) To which "passives" are you referring in the remark "Front loading of passives"?

• The term "passive" in the Skills UI refers to an ability which the player cannot place, and does not need to place, on a character's Ability Bar (which contains only "active" abilities). Such passives typically affect active abilities and attributes without any intervention of the player other than choosing to "unlock' them with a Skill Point.
• In the context of Champion Points (CP), I suppose that some stars affect one or more passives (such as those which increase Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, etc.) and that other stars affect one or more active abilities (such as Thaumaturge, which increases the damage inflicted by each and every AoE ability).
• So, does your remark apply only to the stars which affect passive abilities and/or character attributes?
• What is "front loading"?

(3) The statement "Damage done and Champion Point bonus are not now additive instead of multiplicative." should probably be as I've corrected it in the preceding quotation.

• All I know is what I see on the "paper doll" displayed while I use the Inventory UI for a character. The same numbers with the same labels are also shown on the View Character UI. They include neither "Damage Done" nor "Damage Taken".
• So, please explain what "Damage Done" and "Damage Taken" are (and what the difference is between them). How is each one, respectively, measured and calculated?

(4) If "Flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer" means that a decimal number is truncated to an integer, then does "Ceiling of all bonuses to the nearest integer" mean that a decimal number is increased to the next highest integer? Hmmm... perhaps the proper term would be "roofing" instead of "ceiling"?

• Which is to note, we don't really need more jargon, when the jargon we already have and know serves.

Asayre wrote: »

Edit:

Jump points apply to most percentage based stars except for those that apply a cost reduction. List of current jump points

Although you don't mention it, the charts show it, namely, that the various stars are (?) in three groups which the charts categorize as "15%", "25%" and "35%". Since every percentage is a percentage of some numeric value, what numeric values are these percentages of? If they refer to a percentage of a variable, then what is the name of the variable(s)?

Asayre wrote: »

CP optimisation links
http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html
https://woeler.eu/cp/

Partial list of which skills are classified as what
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18LptRy_AfGVehOyIioJJ6PQD98HB0lCOO_GWOcs7Tr4/edit

The Morrowind Mage CP Optimisation calculator is useless without data which I do not know and to which I do not have access, or which, perhaps, must be calculated by the user. "Damage Done" is one example, "Spell Critical Modifier %" is another, and "Direct Damage" is a third.

I suppose that total Spell Penetration can be found by examining the Racial passives and/or Light Armor passives of the character, then summing the various numbers. However, there are no numbers available to me -- that I know of -- to enter into the Damage Percentage section.

Other than that, though, the calculator does appear to have some underlying assumptions about the gear, the active abilities, and the skill-line passives, respectively, for the specific Mage. This is most evident in the Armour Debuff section. Should I assume that it refers to an armour debuff applied to a target? If I recall correctly, neither of my two Sorcerers has any active ability or passive which applies a debuff to any enemy. Although, such debuffs are an effect of some Poisons.

Granted that ZOS does use some terms such as "Direct Damage" in a few features of the ESO UI. However, as far as I know, they have not explained what they mean, let alone explain how a fight is processed and the outcomes calculated. If you know of any glossary and/or of any other documentation for these features which isn't already obvious to any player who uses the software, then please let us know.

That said, thank you for your time and attention, and your contribution to understanding TESO. It would be worth much more if we could understand what the contributors have told us, or tried to tell us. After all, ESO is a game, not nuclear physics or molecular biology!!

Asayre

Shadowshire wrote: »

(1) Please explain "Spell Erosion no longer has any impact (it is assumed that this will work correctly soon)". Do you mean that the feature is broken on the PTS Morrowind software? On the current live version 3.0.5 software, Spell Erosion is still a "star" on the Champion Point (CP) User Interface (UI). Whether it currently has any impact on combat, I have no knowledge or means to determine. If Spell Erosion doesn't work, then should we still distribute CPs to it on the assumption that ZOS will remedy the bug?

In v 3.0.1 Spell Erosion did not work as in spending points did not increase your spell penetration. In the patch notes of 3.0.2 it is stated that this has been fixed. A note to this effect has been added to the first post. I have not tested if the fix is working.

Shadowshire wrote: »

(2) To which "passives" are you referring in the remark "Front loading of passives"?

• The term "passive" in the Skills UI refers to an ability which the player cannot place, and does not need to place, on a character's Ability Bar (which contains only "active" abilities). Such passives typically affect active abilities and attributes without any intervention of the player other than choosing to "unlock' them with a Skill Point.
• In the context of Champion Points (CP), I suppose that some stars affect one or more passives (such as those which increase Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, etc.) and that other stars affect one or more active abilities (such as Thaumaturge, which increases the damage inflicted by each and every AoE ability).
• So, does your remark apply only to the stars which affect passive abilities and/or character attributes?
• What is "front loading"?

I meant that the star bonus is more concentrated to the beginning. The image below shows the tooltip valus pre- and post-Morrowind. Pre-Morrowind the increase is sort of linear start at about 30 points. Post-Morrowind there is more curvature and the benefits of spending a few points in a star is greater.

Another way to visualise it is to look at the difference between adjacent points (shown below). Post-Morrowind the linear trend suggest that for each additional point spent in a star there is a corresponding decrease in effect. Pre-Morrowind this is not so obvious as after about 30 points you consistently get an increase of about 0.2.

Shadowshire wrote: »

(3) The statement "Damage done and Champion Point bonus are not now additive instead of multiplicative." should probably be as I've corrected it in the preceding quotation.

• All I know is what I see on the "paper doll" displayed while I use the Inventory UI for a character. The same numbers with the same labels are also shown on the View Character UI. They include neither "Damage Done" nor "Damage Taken".
• So, please explain what "Damage Done" and "Damage Taken" are (and what the difference is between them). How is each one, respectively, measured and calculated?

The typo has been corrected.

Pre-Morrowind damage calculation was approximately

Damage = Base Tooltip * CP * Damage Done * Damage Taken * Resistance

Base Tooltip is the tooltip without any CP, Damage Done or Damage Taken modifiers. CP is the sum of all relevant CP modifiers. Damage Done is a class of modifiers which includes things like Major Berserk, Minor Berserk, racial passives (eg. Altmer's Elemental Talent). Damage Taken is another class of modifiers which include Minor Vulnerability and Puncturing Sweep. Careful examination of a tooltip will usually reveal whether the modifier belongs to Damage Done or Damage Taken. The game does not show your Damage Done or Damage Taken modifier. The resistance factor is based on target's resistance and players penetration.

For clarity, post-Morrowind damage calculation is now

Damage = Base Tooltip * (CP+Damage Done) * Damage Taken * Resistance

Shadowshire wrote: »

(4) If "Flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer" means that a decimal number is truncated to an integer, then does "Ceiling of all bonuses to the nearest integer" mean that a decimal number is increased to the next highest integer? Hmmm... perhaps the proper term would be "roofing" instead of "ceiling"?

• Which is to note, we don't really need more jargon, when the jargon we already have and know serves.

To my understanding, floor and ceiling functions are well defined in the current mathematical literature. I have never encountered the term 'roofing' and I think truncating is more of a computer science word but it has the same effect as the floor function

Shadowshire wrote: »

Although you don't mention it, the charts show it, namely, that the various stars are (?) in three groups which the charts categorize as "15%", "25%" and "35%". Since every percentage is a percentage of some numeric value, what numeric values are these percentages of? If they refer to a percentage of a variable, then what is the name of the variable(s)?

As part of the Champion System rebalance, star bonuses fall under 6 categories. I have shown three of them in the quote above. The percentages refer to the damage enhancement (when considering damage enhancing stars). That is 25% in Master-at-Arms increases damage done with direct damage attacks by 25% (in accordance to damage formula provided above)

Shadowshire wrote: »

The Morrowind Mage CP Optimisation calculator is useless without data which I do not know and to which I do not have access, or which, perhaps, must be calculated by the user. "Damage Done" is one example, "Spell Critical Modifier %" is another, and "Direct Damage" is a third.

I suppose that total Spell Penetration can be found by examining the Racial passives and/or Light Armor passives of the character, then summing the various numbers. However, there are no numbers available to me -- that I know of -- to enter into the Damage Percentage section.

Other than that, though, the calculator does appear to have some underlying assumptions about the gear, the active abilities, and the skill-line passives, respectively, for the specific Mage. This is most evident in the Armour Debuff section. Should I assume that it refers to an armour debuff applied to a target? If I recall correctly, neither of my two Sorcerers has any active ability or passive which applies a debuff to any enemy. Although, such debuffs are an effect of some Poisons.

Granted that ZOS does use some terms such as "Direct Damage" in a few features of the ESO UI. However, as far as I know, they have not explained what they mean, let alone explain how a fight is processed and the outcomes calculated. If you know of any glossary and/or of any other documentation for these features which isn't already obvious to any player who uses the software, then please let us know.

That said, thank you for your time and attention, and your contribution to understanding TESO. It would be worth much more if we could understand what the contributors have told us, or tried to tell us. After all, ESO is a game, not nuclear physics or molecular biology!!

On loading the calculator (http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html, I cannot say more about the other site as I have little experience of it), I have it default to a test scenario. This test scenario was chosen because of the complexity of the optimisation at that point and it is reasonable starting point for a magicka sorcerer (my favourite class). You should fill in the calculator with values that you typically encounter. In your example of Armour Debuff, you should consider what armour debuffs are typically applied to your enemies. In a dungeon setting, you would typically get Major Breach/Fracture from the tank using Pierce Armour. Other debuffs will depend on your team.

Sorry, my intended audience is usually people with some knowledge of game calculations. I understand it can be confusing if you are not already somewhat aware of how damage calculation is done. Please consider referring to the link below for more details on damage calculation.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

Shadowshire

Asayre wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

....
(2) To which "passives" are you referring in the remark "Front loading of passives"?

• So, does your remark apply only to the stars which affect passive abilities and/or character attributes?
• What is "front loading"?

I meant that the star bonus is more concentrated to the beginning. The image below shows the tooltip valus pre- and post-Morrowind. Pre-Morrowind the increase is sort of linear start at about 30 points. Post-Morrowind there is more curvature and the benefits of spending a few points in a star is greater.

Another way to visualise it is to look at the difference between adjacent points (shown below). Post-Morrowind the linear trend suggest that for each additional point spent in a star there is a corresponding decrease in effect. Pre-Morrowind this is not so obvious as after about 30 points you consistently get an increase of about 0.2.

In my observation, pre-Morrowind, each CP ordinarily added the same 0.xx% value until a certain number of CP were allocated to that star, then the 0.xx% value to be added by the next CP decreased. Adding a CP when the star began at zero would increase the accumulation by a greater amount while the number of CP that had been added remained less than a specific total, after which, adding more CP increased the amount by a smaller 0.xx%. So, after the initial allocations, the trend became strictly linear, with the number of CP allocated that added the same 0.xx% value remaining relatively constant. That is shown by the first chart which you posted.

Nonetheless, at least for some stars, all of the CP which were added within a specific range of accumulated CPs did not always increase the accumulated percentage by the same amount. This typically happened after the accumulated CP had reached a specific total (which varied by the affected ability). For example, in the Tower (?) the Magicka cost reductions after a certain number of CP had accumulated began increasing in varying percentages such as: ... 0.02%, 0.02%, 0.03%, 0.01%, 0.01% 0.02%, 0.02%, 0.3%, 0.01%, 0.01% 0.02% ..... It seemed as if there were a recursive formula which produced such results was being calculated, then changed to a different recursive series after several more CPs were allocated. In that respect, the first chart which you posted apparently shows the average increase for such variable series.

Now, the effects of allocating a CP seem more regular, with each CP adding the same 0.xx% value until a certain number of CP has accumulated, then changing to a different -- usually smaller -- 0.xx%. The initial values for 0.xx% are, however, much larger than pre-Morrowind, and the reduction to a smaller 0.xx% after only two or three CP have been allocated is not as much as it was pre-Morrowind.

So, in this respect, I can see why you would say that the percentage stars for abilities are "front loaded". Nonetheless the increase in 0.xx% as more CP are allocated does decrease, so there is a trend of "diminishing returns" in which the initial CP add the most to the accumulated percentages, and as more CP are allocated, the increase in the accumulated percentage is less. The return usually diminishes rather quickly. This is shown best by the second chart which you posted.

So far, at least, since Morrowind was released I have not encountered a CP accumulation for any star after which the percentage increase from adding another CP is variable. Of course, the constant reduction in the 0.xx% added is always less but there are more CP between reductions.

Asayre wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

(4) If "Flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer" means that a decimal number is truncated to an integer, then does "Ceiling of all bonuses to the nearest integer" mean that a decimal number is increased to the next highest integer? Hmmm... perhaps the proper term would be "roofing" instead of "ceiling"?

• Which is to note, we don't really need more jargon, when the jargon we already have and know serves.

To my understanding, floor and ceiling functions are well defined in the current mathematical literature. I have never encountered the term 'roofing' and I think truncating is more of a computer science word but it has the same effect as the floor function.

Whether you recognized the tone, my remarks were facetious.

That said, the online Lua Reference Manual 5.1 lists the following functions in its math library:

• math.floor (x) Returns the largest integer smaller than or equal to x.
• math.ceil (x) Returns the smallest integer larger than or equal to x.
• math.modf (x) Returns two numbers, the integral part of x and the fractional part of x.

There is neither a math.round (x) function, nor math.roundup (x) and math.rounddown (x) functions, listed in the Reference. But math.modf (x) combines the respective output of the functions TRUNC (x) and FRACT (x) that are in the mathematics libraries of some other programming languages.

As far as I know, the use of such terms in mathematics signifies the same thing. As in programming, they refer to functions, whether there is some customary definition for what each signifies.

Asayre wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

The Morrowind Mage CP Optimisation calculator is useless without data which I do not know and to which I do not have access, or which, perhaps, must be calculated by the user. "Damage Done" is one example, "Spell Critical Modifier %" is another, and "Direct Damage" is a third. ....

That said, thank you for your time and attention, and your contribution to understanding TESO. It would be worth much more if we could understand what the contributors have told us, or tried to tell us. After all, ESO is a game, not nuclear physics or molecular biology!!

On loading the calculator (http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html, I cannot say more about the other site as I have little experience of it), I have it default to a test scenario. This test scenario was chosen because of the complexity of the optimisation at that point and it is reasonable starting point for a magicka sorcerer (my favourite class). You should fill in the calculator with values that you typically encounter. In your example of Armour Debuff, you should consider what armour debuffs are typically applied to your enemies. In a dungeon setting, you would typically get Major Breach/Fracture from the tank using Pierce Armour. Other debuffs will depend on your team.

Sorry, my intended audience is usually people with some knowledge of game calculations. I understand it can be confusing if you are not already somewhat aware of how damage calculation is done. Please consider referring to the link below for more details on damage calculation.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

Again, thank-you for your replies and the information that you have provided. How anyone has acquired any real knowledge of how TESO combat system actually does calculate the outcomes of attacks is a quandry.

Solinur

GilGalad wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

I posted a test version of that addon here: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/11/#post-683379

The addon looks really nice and I'm looking forward to the combination with combat metrics!

I released a first version: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1736

Solinur

Asayre wrote: »

In v 3.0.1 Spell Erosion did not work as in spending points did not increase your spell penetration. In the patch notes of 3.0.2 it is stated that this has been fixed. A note to this effect has been added to the first post. I have not tested if the fix is working.

It works now mostly. Not for Burning Light though... (and maybe a few others?)

GilGalad

Solinur wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Btw, I still plan to make an ingame calculator that hopefully requires only little user input.

I posted a test version of that addon here: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/11/#post-683379

The addon looks really nice and I'm looking forward to the combination with combat metrics!

I released a first version: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1736

Awesome!

I will check it out tomorrow and report back if I run into any issues.

bondroman

Hello! I am confused about elfborn, thaumaturge jump points. At point 51 the game shows 19% persentage , but we need to invest one more point to get 19.24% that a little bit higher than 19%. At the same time at point 72 the game shows us 23%, but we do not need (like in the case of 51 point) to invest one more point to get little bit higher then 23% (at point 73 the game shows 23.14%). Can someone explain this to me? Thank you.

Asayre

bondroman wrote: »

Hello! I am confused about elfborn, thaumaturge jump points. At point 51 the game shows 19% persentage , but we need to invest one more point to get 19.24% that a little bit higher than 19%. At the same time at point 72 the game shows us 23%, but we do not need (like in the case of 51 point) to invest one more point to get little bit higher then 23% (at point 73 the game shows 23.14%). Can someone explain this to me? Thank you.

For Thaumathurge, we believe that the underlying function used is something like this

Value = 4/5000000*Point^3-131/50000*Point^2+252/500*Point

This value is floored (to an integer) for in-game damage calculation but rounded to 1 decimal place for displaying in the tooltip. At 51 points, the value computed with the equation above is 18.9955. Damage calculation uses the floored result (that is 18%) but the tooltip uses the rounded value of 19.0. At 72 points, the function evaluates to 23.00452. In this case, the floor and rounded value coincide.

This is the case for the 15% and 35% stars as well.