Impact of mage champion point rebalances

Darlgon

Feanor wrote: »

The real question is - why does the game itself explain nothing of this at all. Obviously ZOS is expecting everyone having a math major to figure out stuff themselves. It's a very poorly documented game.

Actually, they expect you to sit back and look at the pretty scenery, while you faceroll thru landscape mobs.

The people who worry about this kinda stuff are usually the top 1%ers, who are either min/maxers, raiders or WvWers. At least, based on other threads I have made before. The numbers all come from addon makers.

Hookgrin

Was having some difficulty wrapping my head around what the hell a "jump point" is. Jumped ( ) on test to see what you all are talking about.

It's truncation.

They are just dropping the decimal fraction and using the integer. See the chart below.

The "jump points" that existed before were caused by rounding.

This could be intentional as the no CP test in Cyrodiil shows they are aware that the complex floating point CP math is contributing to lag. Using only integers could greatly simplify the code.

It could also be unintentional as I believe the people who make the UI are not the same ones that make the combat code.

Either way, the fact that they existed before due to rounding shows that they really don't care and hope you don't notice, or that you too don't care, so we are stuck with them.

Thank you to Asayre and MaximusDargus for exposing this.

Feanor

To all the contributors here: You are awesome!

Morgul667

This is awesome thanks

Does someone know what will be the application of those calculations, I mean where to put the CP to optimise them for PVE ? then PVP

RoyJade

Morgul667 wrote: »

Does someone know what will be the application of those calculations, I mean where to put the CP to optimise them for PVE ? then PVP

Well, it will depend a lot (even more than before) of your build. A pve stamblade with SA as his spammable (50/50 dot/direct damage) will put more in master at arm than a pve classic DW stamsorc (95% dot), for example.

Asayre

My approach to PvP is more like this: there are some fights that you will lose no matter what and some fights that you will win no matter what. These are not important for CP optimisation, instead think of the last 5 or 10 fights that were really close - that you almost won or lost. What kind of fights are those and which CP would have helped the most?

Br1ckst0n

Hookgrin wrote: »

Was having some difficulty wrapping my head around what the hell a "jump point" is. Jumped ( ) on test to see what you all are talking about.

It's truncation.

They are just dropping the decimal fraction and using the integer. See the chart below.

The "jump points" that existed before were caused by rounding.

This could be intentional as the no CP test in Cyrodiil shows they are aware that the complex floating point CP math is contributing to lag. Using only integers could greatly simplify the code.

It could also be unintentional as I believe the people who make the UI are not the same ones that make the combat code.

Either way, the fact that they existed before due to rounding shows that they really don't care and hope you don't notice, or that you too don't care, so we are stuck with them.

Thank you to Asayre and MaximusDargus for exposing this.

Pretty much yes, but then there is stuff like 1.00% or 19.00% which also get cut down to the next lower percentage.

Edit: These values are taken from the 25% trees.

Br1ckst0n

RoyJade wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Does someone know what will be the application of those calculations, I mean where to put the CP to optimise them for PVE ? then PVP

Well, it will depend a lot (even more than before) of your build. A pve stamblade with SA as his spammable (50/50 dot/direct damage) will put more in master at arm than a pve classic DW stamsorc (95% dot), for example.

Yes for PvE it will depend on the setup. PvP you probably want to focus on direct damage for more burst.

Morgul667

RoyJade wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Does someone know what will be the application of those calculations, I mean where to put the CP to optimise them for PVE ? then PVP

Well, it will depend a lot (even more than before) of your build. A pve stamblade with SA as his spammable (50/50 dot/direct damage) will put more in master at arm than a pve classic DW stamsorc (95% dot), for example.

I do like my magicka and stamina sorc ^^ (no pet)

OK let's discover this and feel free to share any advices for new optimised CP allocation

Br1ckst0n

Morgul667 wrote: »

I do like my magicka and stamina sorc ^^ (no pet)

OK let's discover this and feel free to share any advices for new optimised CP allocation

Asayre's CP calculator

Woeler's and my CP calculator

Just do a quick test on your damage distribution without CP increases (put points into to you useless trees like blessed to get the CP stat bonus) and then insert these + your stats in one of the calculators.

Zyrudin

Asayre wrote: »

I'm pretty sure @GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points, @RoyJade

I am sorry, but let me just see if I can get clear on this.

Jump points mean that if you put 10.5% on a star you will get actual result of 11% and if you put 10.4% you will get actual result of 10%? Is this it?

Erock25

Zyrudin wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I'm pretty sure @GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points, @RoyJade

I am sorry, but let me just see if I can get clear on this.

Jump points mean that if you put 10.5% on a star you will get actual result of 11% and if you put 10.4% you will get actual result of 10%? Is this it?

No, it always rounds down. 10.4, 10.5, 10.9 ....all equal 10.

Zyrudin

Erock25 wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I'm pretty sure @GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points, @RoyJade

I am sorry, but let me just see if I can get clear on this.

Jump points mean that if you put 10.5% on a star you will get actual result of 11% and if you put 10.4% you will get actual result of 10%? Is this it?

No, it always rounds down. 10.4, 10.5, 10.9 ....all equal 10.

Thanks for clarifying that. How did it work before this change?
Now I am wondering if it already existed and I never noticed...

Erasure

Zyrudin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I'm pretty sure @GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points, @RoyJade

I am sorry, but let me just see if I can get clear on this.

Jump points mean that if you put 10.5% on a star you will get actual result of 11% and if you put 10.4% you will get actual result of 10%? Is this it?

No, it always rounds down. 10.4, 10.5, 10.9 ....all equal 10.

Thanks for clarifying that. How did it work before this change?
Now I am wondering if it already existed and I never noticed...

It already existed on some of the passives on Live, now it does on many more of them.

Minno

Asayre wrote: »

My approach to PvP is more like this: there are some fights that you will lose no matter what and some fights that you will win no matter what. These are not important for CP optimisation, instead think of the last 5 or 10 fights that were really close - that you almost won or lost. What kind of fights are those and which CP would have helped the most?

I agree, there is no point in building to combat 10v1. It basically sums up to "you got served"; hard to defend against ten 4k viper procs at once lol.

But there are stats to pay closer attention to than in PVE. Crit resistance, bastion to boost shield values, using thick skin/iron skin to balance the front loaded incoming dmg. Stacking dmg mitigation wont help you since even 20% of a 18k attack is still a 14.4k attack and you can be assured that isn't the only skill following that 18k spell. You need to block, you need to run, you need to dodge, and you need to let something take a huge chunk of dmg out (shield & crit dmg reduction).

For players looking to maximize CP for morrowind, look at the cost reduction removal as a blessing; you now have to spec into block/dodge/break free/ and sprint reductions whereas you used to stack cost reduction.

Asayre

@Br1ckst0n

What's the working principle of your solver?

Shadzilla

Br1ckst0n wrote: »

Finished all the testing. I had to use a 2nd person to test some of the stuff so there is always a higher risk in getting false values. Here are the full results.

Affected by "jump points":

• arcanist: yes
• mooncalf: yes
• healthy: yes
• tenacity: yes
• bashing focus: no
• sprinter: no
• shade: no
• tumbling: no
• siphoner: yes
• warlord: no
• shadow ward: no
• befoul: yes
  
• bastion: yes
• expert defender: yes
• ele defender: yes
• hardy: yes
• iron clad: yes
• thick skinned: yes
• quick recovery: yes

Would be cool if someone could double check that stuff.

@Br1ckst0n nice work, thank you. @Asayre awesome thread as per usual. Is it possible for you to double check @Br1ckst0n 's findings here? Also I would highly suggest putting that info, along with the jump points in the first post.

Br1ckst0n

Asayre wrote: »

@Br1ckst0n

What's the working principle of your solver?

Basicly i calculate ignoring all the jump points, remove all the useless points and then check every valid distribution that is possible.

Zyrudin

Now the real question, apart from adapting to this new knowledge, is whether this is intended and if it will be corrected in a future patch.

Honestly, it does not seem intended...

Chilly-McFreeze

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Vudokan

Long live math nerds!!

Honestly, numbers are a bit of a disability for me, so I really appreciate the hard work some of you do to keep us on top of things. Thanks so much.

Masel

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Exactly that simplified you can say that it currently works additively:

Stat=(Sum of Flat Value Bonuses)*(1+Sum of %-Bonuses 1 to N)

instead of multiplicatively:

Stat=(Sum of Flat Value Bonuses)*(1+%Bonus1)*(1+%Bonus2)...*(1+%BonusN).

With N being the number of percentage bonuses that buff the skill/proc etc.

Damage equations are a little more complicated as they have more variables determining the flat bonuses (Max Stat and Spell/Weapon Damage), but in general they work that way too.

GilGalad

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Yes that's how it works now. It is also additive with other sources of dmg increase like racial passives, class passives, minor Berserk, etc.

Bashev

GilGalad wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Yes that's how it works now. It is also additive with other sources of dmg increase like racial passives, class passives, minor Berserk, etc.

Then how it works the defensive stats? Are they also additive or multiplicative?

Masel

Bashev wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the change to an additive bonus means that everything that double dips will be affected on base value?

So if a skill does 1000 poison dmg over some time , it will do 1100 with 10% in Mighty OR taumathurg and 1200 with 10% in both now? Instead of 1210?

Sry if I'm asking the quite obivious that was already explained.

Yes that's how it works now. It is also additive with other sources of dmg increase like racial passives, class passives, minor Berserk, etc.

Then how it works the defensive stats? Are they also additive or multiplicative?

Afaik, everything except mitigation is additive. My example above was based on stats. Damage Mitigation is morr complicated, there's a very good thread by @paulsimonps about that in the combat and character mechanics section.

Morgul667

Thanks mate

Br1ckst0n wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

I do like my magicka and stamina sorc ^^ (no pet)

OK let's discover this and feel free to share any advices for new optimised CP allocation

Asayre's CP calculator

Woeler's and my CP calculator

Just do a quick test on your damage distribution without CP increases (put points into to you useless trees like blessed to get the CP stat bonus) and then insert these + your stats in one of the calculators.

Wow

Thanks mate, appreciate it

Asayre

Bashev wrote: »

Then how it works the defensive stats? Are they also additive or multiplicative?

Roughly speaking, damage is calculated like

Damage = Base Damage * Damage Done * Damage Taken

CP bonuses in the blue tree count as damage done, as well as racial passives, class passives etc. CP bonuses in the red tree count as reducing damage taken, there are some abilities that increase (enemies) damage taken like Puncturing Sweeps or Minor Vulnerability. Damage done sources are additive. Damage taken sources are additive.

Br1ckst0n

Zyrudin wrote: »

Now the real question, apart from adapting to this new knowledge, is whether this is intended and if it will be corrected in a future patch.

Honestly, it does not seem intended...

Asayre wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Then how it works the defensive stats? Are they also additive or multiplicative?

Roughly speaking, damage is calculated like

Damage = Base Damage * Damage Done * Damage Taken

CP bonuses in the blue tree count as damage done, as well as racial passives, class passives etc. CP bonuses in the red tree count as reducing damage taken, there are some abilities that increase (enemies) damage taken like Puncturing Sweeps or Minor Vulnerability. Damage done sources are additive. Damage taken sources are additive.

Maybe we should also mention that these additive calculations (instead of multiplicative like it was before) reduce the effectiveness of damage done modifiers (since you are dealing with values above 1.00) and higher the effectiveness of damage taken modifiers (since you usually deal with values below 1.00).

Invoky

Does CP star like Spell shield, Resistant, and Piercing not have jump point because they give flat bonus value like gears?

Magıc

What were the previous jump points? Surprised no "famous" player has mentioned anything about this.