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Impact of mage champion point rebalances

  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Asayre wrote: »
    There are jump points for every 15%, 25% and 35% star so yes to Elemental Expert, Staff Expert, Hardy, Elemental Defender, Shadow Ward and Thick Skinned. It seems only the 5280 stars do not have jump points (i.e. Piercing, Spell Erosion etc.)

    Im pretty sure they just added the jump points to make optimizing CP a challenge again!
    The plot is actually really funny, telling us that every point between 80 and 99 is useless. :D
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  • RoyJade
    RoyJade
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    The plot is actually really funny, telling us that every point between 80 and 99 is useless. :D

    In order to promote spreading instead of stacking :p


    Joke aside, as usual these informations are really useful. Thanks Asayre !
    Now I'm waiting for all the jump point, but it seem that they're on every 1% gained if I understand well.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    Asayre wrote: »
    There are jump points for every 15%, 25% and 35% star so yes to Elemental Expert, Staff Expert, Hardy, Elemental Defender, Shadow Ward and Thick Skinned. It seems only the 5280 stars do not have jump points (i.e. Piercing, Spell Erosion etc.)

    @Asayre Wait, seriously? According to your graph up there this is no difference in putting in 20, 21, or 22 points into a CP that maxes out at 25% even though the in game tool tip states otherwise? WHY, OH WHY would they do this?
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  • RoyJade
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    Ah, perfect, thanks a lot :D
  • Erock25
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    Asayre wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure @GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points, @RoyJade

    7c86a11903b3c9df1d9b3526c58b2bff.png

    This can't be intentional. I refuse to believe it. @ZOS_GinaBruno can you enlighten us on this when you get a chance?
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    Asayre wrote: »
    There are jump points for every 15%, 25% and 35% star so yes to Elemental Expert, Staff Expert, Hardy, Elemental Defender, Shadow Ward and Thick Skinned. It seems only the 5280 stars do not have jump points (i.e. Piercing, Spell Erosion etc.)

    Thanks!

    A few threads back a few people were able to find out the jump points for the 25% and 15% stars:
    • 15%: 4, 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 27, 32, 43, 49, 56, 64, 75, 100
    • 24 useless values between 14-15%
    • 25%: 0, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 18, 20, 23, 28, 31, 34, 37, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 61, 66, 72, 81, 100
    • 19 useless values between 24-25%

    they did not test for the 35% stars. They also figured out the PTS rounds down now instead of rounding up like on live (For example with a random number, instead of 12.8% Elfborn you'll need 13.15%)

    EDIT: @Asayre beat me to it with that comprehensive list. Cheers!
    Edited by Minno on May 15, 2017 7:27PM
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  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    xD ZOS OP

    Lovin the jump points
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    The way I see it, elfborn has jump points on Live so to make things more fair and consistent everything should have jump points. It makes sense ... really
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  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Asayre wrote: »
    The way I see it, elfborn has jump points on Live so to make things more fair and consistent everything should have jump points. It makes sense ... really

    Indeed. Just need to put a little thought into it and you end up realizing how logical it is!
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  • dpencil1
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    Are we sure that the tenth and hundredth values aren't actually doing anything? Could it just be simplification of stat numbers on the UI side?
    Edited by dpencil1 on May 15, 2017 8:07PM
  • DargusMaximus
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    @Asayre I got curious and went to PTS, Shadow Ward does not follow this pattern, adding single CP even at far end between 81-100 CP would be reflected in reduced block cost.

    I tested from 0 to 25CP in shadow ward and then from 75 to 100CP in shadow ward. Each CP invested visibly reduced block cost (block cost taken out from Combat Metrics resource report) up untill 95CP where adding single CP did not yeld change in block cost simply because the %reduction gained from 1CP was too small to have any effect at a resulting block cost.

    This test was done on all naked toon with only base block cost 2160, i believe this could change if i had my full sturdy setup with other block reductions in there. But then, it seems that as far as Shadow Ward, if there are such jump points (which would appear starting from 95CP) they could start showing up earlier with more block cost reductions stacked.

    Tommorow ill verify damage reduction stars.
    Edited by DargusMaximus on May 15, 2017 8:45PM
  • Minno
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    @Asayre I got curious and went to PTS, Shadow Ward does not follow this pattern, adding single CP even at far end between 81-100 CP would be reflected in reduced block cost.

    I tested from 0 to 25CP in shadow ward and then from 75 to 100CP in shadow ward. Each CP invested visibly reduced block cost (block cost taken out from Combat Metrics resource report).

    Tommorow ill verify damage reduction stars.

    I thought the understanding for "jump points" was to help players understand the value of the points they are adding to the star. For example, why waste 24 champion points to go up 1% in the 15% max stars, when those 24 points can be added to get 10% from the 25% star or 6% from another 15%?

    I think the values do go up per point, but at what level can we say those points are worth spending? I believe this is the value of the "jump point" system of understanding the champion points.
    Edited by Minno on May 15, 2017 8:31PM
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Asayre wrote: »
    The way I see it, elfborn has jump points on Live so to make things more fair and consistent everything should have jump points. It makes sense ... really

    I have the feeling that it is related to the formula they use to add up additive values. Elfborn is additive with other crit dmg boni on live, while the other % stars are multiplicative. With the change of making all dmg CP additive it introduced jump points.

    That would also explain @MaximusDargus find that shadow ward is not suffering the problem, since blockcost reduction is usually multiplicative.
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  • DargusMaximus
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    Minno wrote: »
    @Asayre I got curious and went to PTS, Shadow Ward does not follow this pattern, adding single CP even at far end between 81-100 CP would be reflected in reduced block cost.

    I tested from 0 to 25CP in shadow ward and then from 75 to 100CP in shadow ward. Each CP invested visibly reduced block cost (block cost taken out from Combat Metrics resource report).

    Tommorow ill verify damage reduction stars.

    I thought the understanding for "jump points" was to help players understand the value of the points they are adding to the star. For example, why waste 24 champion points to go up 1% in the 15% max stars, when those 24 points can be added to get 10% from the 25% star or 6% from another 15%?

    I think the values do go up per point, but at what level can we say those points are worth spending? I believe this is the value of the "jump point" system of understanding the champion points.

    Graph on previous page suggest more literal meaning, that each CP in between jump points gives no visible increase in actual stat. @Asayre will need to clarify
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    Minno wrote: »
    @Asayre I got curious and went to PTS, Shadow Ward does not follow this pattern, adding single CP even at far end between 81-100 CP would be reflected in reduced block cost.

    I tested from 0 to 25CP in shadow ward and then from 75 to 100CP in shadow ward. Each CP invested visibly reduced block cost (block cost taken out from Combat Metrics resource report).

    Tommorow ill verify damage reduction stars.

    I thought the understanding for "jump points" was to help players understand the value of the points they are adding to the star. For example, why waste 24 champion points to go up 1% in the 15% max stars, when those 24 points can be added to get 10% from the 25% star or 6% from another 15%?

    I think the values do go up per point, but at what level can we say those points are worth spending? I believe this is the value of the "jump point" system of understanding the champion points.

    Yeah someone needs to explain this to me because the line graph and chart are not making sense for jump points. The chart in particular makes no sense as to me it implies (in the 25% chart) that you need 3 points to make it to 1% increase but then only 2 additional points to reach 2% increase. I see no other way to interpret that chart.
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  • Br1ckst0n
    Br1ckst0n
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    Asayre wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure GilGalad is right. it was to make it way more fun to optimise. No more simple gradient descent for us. We have to do weird stuff to get the right CP distribution. Here are all the jump points.

    You will still get a near perfect result if you calculate for a system without jump points. Just take that result and remove all the points that give you no benefit in a jump point system and then do an accurate calculation just for those points you removed. There is your "fun" :wink:
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  • wimhwimladimf
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    Tbh, all their work is just waste of time. At some point someone will make guide for perfect dps setup and everyone will copy pasta it, leading to the exact same situation as we have now but visually it will be a bit different due to more passives being used.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Tbh, all their work is just waste of time. At some point someone will make guide for perfect dps setup and everyone will copy pasta it, leading to the exact same situation as we have now but visually it will be a bit different due to more passives being used.

    No because CP is never perfect for everyone. It depends on the player.
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    Feanor wrote: »
    The real question is - why does the game itself explain nothing of this at all. Obviously ZOS is expecting everyone having a math major to figure out stuff themselves. It's a very poorly documented game.

    Well I mean computer science/programming is itself a math major. You are at the mercy of number-nerds my friend lol.
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  • akray21
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    Long story short... I will still be severely disadvantaged with 300 CP compared to those with 630 CP. Sweet...
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Feanor wrote: »
    The real question is - why does the game itself explain nothing of this at all. Obviously ZOS is expecting everyone having a math major to figure out stuff themselves. It's a very poorly documented game.

    It's an Elder Scrolls game... having pop up dmg numbers is something I've never seen
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
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  • amasuriel
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    A thing I experimented with a lot is the spell erosion/piercing stars. I have been using non sharpened weapons with spinner on live for alt chars because I didn't want to move gear all the time and it was very close to the old BiS setups. Now with 50 Points in one of the Penetration cps you get 5160*0.75=3860. This is very close to spinner and in raids with all Buffs applied you get to 19128 Spell Penetration without using any sharpened weapons, which is still 928 too much. So the question is: does this frontloaded cp star allow for non-sharpened weapons to be viable?

    In raids you will still most likely invest to unlock the exploiter passive, so 75 points in thaumaturge. Leaves 135 points: 50 in spell erosion, 25 in Elfborn, 50 in elemental expert, 10 in staff expert? Or take out a few from elemental expert and 0 in staff expert and put them in master at arms?

    On magblades with higher critical rating it might be better to put more into elfborn and take them out of ele expert or Master at arms.

    For stamina builds this could enable to use a lot more builds. So with sharpened weapons you can put into piercing and drop twice-fanged serpent or use twice-fanged serpent and use non-sharpened weapons without losing too much damage.

    Any thoughts on this?

    This is my main hope for build diversity as well, that the front loading of erosion will allow some non-sharpened setups to work (and by work I mean be within 5% of BiS). Would add a lot to diversity if you would make crit builds, ulti builds, enchant builds etc.
  • Br1ckst0n
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    Did some tests on non blue trees, will do the rest later.

    Here some conclusions:
    • Bastion: Jump point
    • arcanist: jump point
    • healthy: jump point
    • mooncalf: jump point
    • tenacity: jump point
    • bashing focus: gradient
    • sprinter: gradient
    • shade: gradient
    • tumbling: gradient
    Edited by Br1ckst0n on May 17, 2017 6:36PM
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    Br1ckst0n wrote: »
    Did some tests on non blue trees, will do the rest later.

    Here some conclusions:
    • Bastion: Jump point
    • arcanist: jump point
    • healthy: jump point
    • mooncalf: jump point
    • tenacity: jump point
    • bashing focus: gradient
    • sprinter: gradient
    • shade: gradient
    • tumbling: gradient

    Nice find. So I assume with "gradient" that any CP point will increase the bonus?
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  • Br1ckst0n
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    Minno wrote: »
    Nice find. So I assume with "gradient" that any CP point will increase the bonus?

    Exactly.

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  • Wreuntzylla
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    Feanor wrote: »
    The real question is - why does the game itself explain nothing of this at all. Obviously ZOS is expecting everyone having a math major to figure out stuff themselves. It's a very poorly documented game.

    The jump points in CP have always been there to a greater or lesser extent. Probably the easiest to understand explanation of how it affects point allocation on live is by @Gottbeard who was patient zero for the wave of overperforming blazing shield builds. It's a long video but I don't really see it as a build video, I see it as a mechanics explanation video.



    The lack of documentation has been a problem since release. Interestingly, even the streamers who popularize certain build still show allocations of 100 points in, for example, Mighty.

    I think the greatest impact on the average player is the complete lack of even an in-game mention of animation cancelling by ZoS. It was a long time before they even admitted it existed and was unintended, but something players needed to accept, because removing it would require a huge allocation of resources.

    Edited by Wreuntzylla on May 17, 2017 8:36PM
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