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Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced

Rinmaethodain
Rinmaethodain
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Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.

What im refering to?
(...) Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game. (...)

These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.

Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".

How long it's been that developers were trying to achieve the PVE+PVP balance? One year, two years and counting - in meantime we've seen things nerfed and buffed back and forth from one patch to another - pretty much time wasted on running circles.

(an example of such change is how in Dark Brotherhood constitution passive was buffed to compensate PVE tanks for loss of bracing passive yet in Morrowind patch notes that change is basically being reverted because of complaints from PVP playerbase).

If that time, these months and years would have been spent by developers on overhauling PVP system in a way where it could be balanced 100% separately from PVE environment, we would be enjoying already (or very soon) a much better balance in completely separated fields of PVP and PVE where one system wont be hurting other players:

- no more PVP players complaining that power creep in PVE is runing their builds and abilities and other way around, no PVE players complaining that PVP complaints are inducing nerfs in abilities behaving perfectly fine in PVE

  • Uriel_Nocturne
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    The whole "Unified Game" theory is nice on paper, but in practice, it doesn't work. At all.

    The reason is, PvP and PvE play completely differently just by their very natures.

    When making "balance" changes under the "unified game" theory; the Devs must choose one side of the game to give greater weight to than the other, and that's due to the vastly different game play mechanics between the two. But the "unified game" theory says that every change in every patch MUST affect both sides of the game in the same equal manner.

    - If they make changes and nerf everything down to bring "balance" to the PvP side; you get the destruction of Classes, Skills, Passives, the CP tree, etc., just as we're seeing in this 3.0 Morrowind patch currently being tested.

    - If they make changes and bring "balance" and "nuance" to the PvE side; then you get vastly overpowered characters in PvP, nigh infinite sustain, certain Skills, passives, and armor/weapon Sets that become the "Meta" and allow players to steamroll other players who are not using the current "Meta".

    "Unified Game" theories sound nice, and are probably a boon to marketing departments that don't ever have to play the game to sell it to new players and investors. But when put into game code and placed into the game, the destructive effects of that very same "unified game" theory only serves to overwhelm players, destroy classes, destroy builds, and have overall negative effects on one side of the game, while only positively servicing the other side.

    It's a horrible theory to "balance" a game upon, and we're very much seeing the negative effects of it "live" and in person right now in this PTS testing.

    ZOS desperately needs to leave the "unified game" theory behind, and place a development "wall" between the PvE and PvP side. Would this increase the times to roll out "Major" patches? Sure.

    But would the game be infinitely better served by having two separate sets of updates, with each update only affecting one side of the game or the other? Absolutely.

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  • Thelon
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    u can balance me forcefully anytime
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    You keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole, ZOS. Sooner or later either the peg or the hole is going to break under the strain.

    You cant force them. You cant balance PVE and PVP in the same pot. We've shouted it, time and again, provided examples, and now the only thing you'll accomplish with your commitment to it is gutting your game.

    But, as people have said, it'd force them to put more emphasis on the development time, and the people doing the development dont know how to do it, let alone other things.

    This games worst enemy on a performance, balance, and connection level is the mismanagement of the people in charge. It is a shame to watch brilliant writing, visual design and storytellers work crushed behind the other half of the game's development.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on April 26, 2017 9:52PM
  • Tholian1
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    I've only dipped my toes in PvP, but when I did, I quickly realized I wasn't properly equipped with gear or skills to effectively play there. I looked up PvP centric builds and they included many things I would never use in PvE. Why does ZoS think you can just jump from running a dungeon straight to PvP without changing up your skills and gear?

    And an off topic question...

    Why don't we have preset character load outs?
    PS4 Pro NA
  • Onefrkncrzypope
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    It can be done. PvP set and some of PvP skills are different. Yes there are skills that cross over but most of the time if that skill is op in PvP then it's op in PvE. The problems with their balancing is that ZoS doesn't play thier game.
    Case 1: we want to nerf unkillable tank... Hmm DK are tanks boom problem nerfed.
    Case 2: we want to nerf infinite sustain... Redguards and siphoning strikes boom!
    Case 3: nerf high damage: lol it's got to be nightblades in stealth... Nerfed

    When in reality none of these were outperforming a Sorc(Stam/mag) toon in the hands of a good player. Which they didn't touch. I'm not saying nerf but man. Everytime I watch some PvP vids sorcs are crazy. My unkillable DK might hold 4 or 5 potatoes but these sorcs out class full groups.

    Another problem is that they are too heavy handed most of the time. They didn't touch most sustain sets other that bone pirates. Lich and amberplasm are pretty overturned. Why completely gutting established class uniqueness.

    If I were a developer the nerf order would be: sets>CP>sets>armor skills>sets>weapon skills>sets>passives> and last resort class skills. Weaving sets because they always change anyway. Set aren't a big deal for most players , heck it makes for more longevity. Changing a class isn't so easy on the player. Changing a class is to completely wipe all of the player's experience and enjoyment. I have every class expect stamplar and mNB. I have 4 DKs, I don't look to Morrowind with excitement. I wish the devs could understand that. I really love this game both PvE and PvP. It seems that the devs might need to put in as much hours as most of us do. I wish the devs all the luck in the world. Ty so much for the fun y'all made for us. And now my nose is brown.

    TL DR: it wasn't pvps fault
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  • NightbladeMechanics
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    It's actually entirely possible to balance PvE and PvP together.

    They would have to balance player skills and tooltips and mechanics in PvP first. The devs can't control players, so they have to be tamed first.

    And then balance and tweak PvE mob mechanics and stats around PvP-balanced player characters. Devs can control PvE aspects of the game.

    ZOS has historically not been willing to do that because it takes a little more effort, but this upcoming patch is out of character for them... It might be the beginning of a change. We'll see.

    They sure do have a lot of power creep to revert, so it's sizing up to be one helluva patch.
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on April 27, 2017 1:53AM
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  • Tyval
    Tyval
    Soul Shriven
    It is mind boggling to me that ZOS thinks they can manage balance with only one ruleset/mechanics set for both PvP and PvE.

    None of the other major MMOs have been able to do this. The older ones had to split of skills etc. years ago and the newer ones that offer PvP design in different rule sets.

    It is arrogant and short sighted of ZOS to think they can do this while the major MMO players(WoW et al) have failed. Even more difficult given this game has a very complicated/robust class/skill system.

    Sadly the fix isn't even all that hard. Just add a PvP dmg value to go along side the current value for skills. Perhaps split off duration as well.

    When in PvP use the pvp values, else use the PvE values. Just imagine how much easier and better balance would be if they could take skills and tweak the values in PvP leaving PvE intact. Have an over powered PvP skill that is causing problems, tweak the PvP dmg value. The balance in PvE stays intact. Not to mention they avoid pissing off a huge portion of the player base when their game play significantly changes based on a type of game play they don't even partake in...

    Recently back to the game and enjoying myself, but this update has me concerned (as well as the overall paradigm that it seems ZOS is trying to pull off (same rules/skills etc. for PvE and PvP).
  • rimmidimdim
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    It is an issue as a player that does both. I'm personally on the opinion to remove monster helms from PvP. Then bring back procs critical chance, for both PvP and pve. If a couple sets have to be nerfed so be it. I feel for players getting nerfed because of PvP. It's not good. For anyone.
    Edited by rimmidimdim on April 27, 2017 2:37AM
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    tumblr_inline_nhgi2eLSRB1qb5tqc.jpg


    Yes ! More Doooom an gloom .
  • JinMori
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    Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.

    What im refering to?
    (...) Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game. (...)

    These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.

    Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".

    How long it's been that developers were trying to achieve the PVE+PVP balance? One year, two years and counting - in meantime we've seen things nerfed and buffed back and forth from one patch to another - pretty much time wasted on running circles.

    (an example of such change is how in Dark Brotherhood constitution passive was buffed to compensate PVE tanks for loss of bracing passive yet in Morrowind patch notes that change is basically being reverted because of complaints from PVP playerbase).

    If that time, these months and years would have been spent by developers on overhauling PVP system in a way where it could be balanced 100% separately from PVE environment, we would be enjoying already (or very soon) a much better balance in completely separated fields of PVP and PVE where one system wont be hurting other players:

    - no more PVP players complaining that power creep in PVE is runing their builds and abilities and other way around, no PVE players complaining that PVP complaints are inducing nerfs in abilities behaving perfectly fine in PVE

    Well said, honestly cannot believe what zos posted about the balance concerns, it's just *** stupid, if you separate pve and pvp, you would make your balancing so much easyer, and it would be an overhall better balance, the "unified game" is just a bunch of *** that doesn't work in real life situations, because pve and pvp behave differently, and so some abilities will always be op in pvp and fine in pve, of vice versa.

    Keep dreaming zos, it will ruin the game for everyone, *** hell.

    I'm just so *** tired that people continue to say the same ***, but zos still doesn't *** listen.

    Really It would be much better if you just said it costs too much money to do something like that, so we can;t do this until our profits are high enough to let us do it, instead of saying stupid *** like this that just pisses off your community.

    And the statement by itself is half false already, because if you really wanted to have a truly unified game, you would have a single build for both pvp and pve, which won't happen, and should not, since it would be boring as ***.
    Edited by JinMori on April 27, 2017 3:18AM
  • JinMori
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    It's actually entirely possible to balance PvE and PvP together.

    They would have to balance player skills and tooltips and mechanics in PvP first. The devs can't control players, so they have to be tamed first.

    And then balance and tweak PvE mob mechanics and stats around PvP-balanced player characters. Devs can control PvE aspects of the game.

    ZOS has historically not been willing to do that because it takes a little more effort, but this upcoming patch is out of character for them... It might be the beginning of a change. We'll see.

    They sure do have a lot of power creep to revert, so it's sizing up to be one helluva patch.

    So basically everything would be balanced around pvp, think i'll pass.
    And no this patch is shaping up to be pretty awful to be honest.

    Power creep my ass, Only 1 % of the players managed to complete v trials or arena, and for normal players, most vet dungeons are decently challenging.

    They should create a new mode specifically for experienced players, and there you go, the so called power creep that affects only the top players would be gone.

    But then guess what, the content would get too easy after a few times that you do it, and then back at the forums asking for nerfs because the game is now too easy.

  • lunalitetempler
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    Changes are happening, the sooner you accept it the sooner you can adapt. Your just beating a dead horse at this point.
    Edited by lunalitetempler on April 27, 2017 4:18AM
  • Mojmir
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    Changes are happening, the sooner you accept it the sooner you can adapt. Your just beating a dead horse at this point.

    so are the developers with this pipe dream of balancing both sides equally.
  • Turelus
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    As a PvX player I like them being close.

    I would be very annoyed if more skills worked differently between the two.
    It's nice knowing that I can go and do the content I want that evening without needing to relearn every skill I own.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Latin
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    OP is pretty much on point here. The buff and nerf cycle isn't going to change anything in the long run. Implementing short term patches and fixes may look like fine-tuning towards a solution, but with 3 years and counting, perhaps more effort should be directed towards the underlying system instead.
  • Turelus
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    Latin wrote: »
    OP is pretty much on point here. The buff and nerf cycle isn't going to change anything in the long run. Implementing short term patches and fixes may look like fine-tuning towards a solution, but with 3 years and counting, perhaps more effort should be directed towards the underlying system instead.
    You would still have buff and nerf cycles though, and big ones people don't like when the game goes beyond what the devs envisioned.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Rinmaethodain
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Latin wrote: »
    OP is pretty much on point here. The buff and nerf cycle isn't going to change anything in the long run. Implementing short term patches and fixes may look like fine-tuning towards a solution, but with 3 years and counting, perhaps more effort should be directed towards the underlying system instead.
    You would still have buff and nerf cycles though, and big ones people don't like when the game goes beyond what the devs envisioned.

    Yeah but at least this time, buff nerf cycles could be more precise, hitting at the root of problem with PVP mingled with PVE devs need to do workarounds.
  • Mush55
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    Changes are happening, the sooner you accept it the sooner you can adapt. Your just beating a dead horse at this point.

    Naaa I just stopped playing shame as the game had potential but alas another game gets the shaft because of a lack of a clear path and forward planning....................
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Mojmir wrote: »
    so are the developers with this pipe dream of balancing both sides equally.

    Personally I think it would save them from needing to do extra coding if an ability was overperforming in pvp,but not pve. Not a programmer though. Just leads me to believe that once they have a system to separate the 2 it would simplify the task of balance. ZOS might just have to hire a few more to analyze data.
  • Minno
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    JinMori wrote: »
    It's actually entirely possible to balance PvE and PvP together.

    They would have to balance player skills and tooltips and mechanics in PvP first. The devs can't control players, so they have to be tamed first.

    And then balance and tweak PvE mob mechanics and stats around PvP-balanced player characters. Devs can control PvE aspects of the game.

    ZOS has historically not been willing to do that because it takes a little more effort, but this upcoming patch is out of character for them... It might be the beginning of a change. We'll see.

    They sure do have a lot of power creep to revert, so it's sizing up to be one helluva patch.

    So basically everything would be balanced around pvp, think i'll pass.
    And no this patch is shaping up to be pretty awful to be honest.

    Power creep my ass, Only 1 % of the players managed to complete v trials or arena, and for normal players, most vet dungeons are decently challenging.

    They should create a new mode specifically for experienced players, and there you go, the so called power creep that affects only the top players would be gone.

    But then guess what, the content would get too easy after a few times that you do it, and then back at the forums asking for nerfs because the game is now too easy.

    He meant class/skill balance to control the players. You close off the avenues for exploits/OP sets/over performing skills, you can properly balance the parts of the game that you only need to adjust health/dmg/timed mechanics of (pve.)
    Basically class/player behavior balance first, game mode mechanics second.

    You need a bench mark anyway to establish that fine line between whats working as intended and what isnt.
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  • wimhwimladimf
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    It's possible to balance pvp and pve at the same time by making nerfs or buffs work only while flagged for pvp. However it will increase amount of knowledge which new players have to learn. Besides ZOS isnt that good at balancing either, so when they fix one thing, they break 2 other things in the same time.
  • sneakymitchell
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    More like ZOS wants pvp. Might take a year to fix diversity set ups for pve since everything is meta in pve. Pvp u can run the same set up in pve but u need to change couple things for ur set. Like having more crit restiance and switching skills.
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  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Perhaps it's time to quit letting pve break due to trying to fix pvp,which will probably never get fixed anyway. At least until they get their head out of their ass, and balance separately. Damnit, I'm starting to sound like a broken even to myself. Don't want to make it sound like pvp doesn't need tweaking,which it does and I want them to get balanced out. However this could be achieved in a much less hostile manner.
    Edited by MehrunesFlagon on May 7, 2017 2:15AM
  • STEVIL
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    Asking to split the balancing of pve and pvp is effectively the same thing as saying "slowly phase pvp out".

    Splitting the dev train is basically making two code streams. Anyone with familiarity in major it projects knows trying to maintain two separate code streams with inter-related parts is a nightmare increasing exponentially the difficulty of any change, every bug, all testing etc... it starts at increasing the risk and cost four-fold, not two-fold, and then spirals further as the weight and mass of divergences over time accumulate.

    Short terms result is an increase in bugs at release, a slow-down and cost increase on all new content and a very cosmetic boost in some content issues (until it is realized that even separated there are just as many different "best way to do" opinions within each category as there are between the categories. (or do you all somehow believe that overnight all the pvpers will suddenly reach hand holding agreement on what is "best for pvp" and all the pve folks will do the same?)

    Long term result is a gradual reduction in significant changes in favor of safer more homogenized "bland" features and the inevitable bean counter pointing out the massive savings and improvements across the board if they just jettison the least profitable code stream... wanna guess which that would be?

    Not a big fan of pvp myself but please please please do not inflict the damage on PVE that a PVE/PVP code split would do.
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  • H4RDFOX
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    Although you have campaigns like "make it your way," and "no cookie cutter builds." There is still the main comment made, "you go to wendy's for wendy's chilli," not "I go to wendy's for chilli how I want it made." Thus, you are playing ESO the way the Devs create their world, with community input of course. I mean, why else would you have an "agree, awesome, insightful" option? If they are low numbers, then obviously no one is feeling what you are conveying in the forums.

    Lets get right into it. No one can say for sure what the game will play like after morrowind. What I see in many posts about players discontent are unsound arguments, fallacies. So, what can you do? Provide credible feedback, rational and logical feedback. More deductive, less inductive.

    The "unified theory" in my opinion works. What I foresee happening is longer dungeon/trial runs. I mean come on, people skip content in dungeons, and burst down bosses quickly. That's an issue.

    The game will not end up where these negative posts say it will.
    #NoEasyProps
  • brandonv516
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    H4RDFOX wrote: »
    What I foresee happening is longer dungeon/trial runs. I mean come on, people skip content in dungeons, and burst down bosses quickly. That's an issue.

    This is not a good thing. People will still look for opportunities to skip content when they can and I don't blame them one bit.

    What happens when content takes 2x or 3x the amount of time and effort due to sustain changes? People either do it or they don't. The people that lose out are those that are restricted on time in this game (i.e. those that have a family, job, etc.). But they still get their complaints in.

    What does ZOS do to solve the issues for these people? They dumb down content, thus making it take less time and becoming too easy again.
    Edited by brandonv516 on May 8, 2017 1:04AM
  • lunalitetempler
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    Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.

    What im refering to?
    (...) Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game. (...)

    These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.

    Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".

    How long it's been that developers were trying to achieve the PVE+PVP balance? One year, two years and counting - in meantime we've seen things nerfed and buffed back and forth from one patch to another - pretty much time wasted on running circles.

    (an example of such change is how in Dark Brotherhood constitution passive was buffed to compensate PVE tanks for loss of bracing passive yet in Morrowind patch notes that change is basically being reverted because of complaints from PVP playerbase).

    If that time, these months and years would have been spent by developers on overhauling PVP system in a way where it could be balanced 100% separately from PVE environment, we would be enjoying already (or very soon) a much better balance in completely separated fields of PVP and PVE where one system wont be hurting other players:

    - no more PVP players complaining that power creep in PVE is runing their builds and abilities and other way around, no PVE players complaining that PVP complaints are inducing nerfs in abilities behaving perfectly fine in PVE

    Wrong try again.
    Edited by lunalitetempler on May 8, 2017 1:07PM
  • Bringer
    Bringer
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    It is possible to do this, and has been done in the past. The issue is you can not start with a pve-centric system and then try to make pvp work around it. You need to start with a pvp system, and then design pve content that fits it.

    While this games pve is superficially different than standard, it still borrows heavily from the mold established by eq and later reinforced by WoW. Unfortunately most people experienced mmos in the era after this had already happened, and many consider these things to be fundamental elements of mmos themselves, instead of what they are, just one system of many that have been successfully employed in the past. This means that players are likly going to resist the unknown and insist on a familiar pve system, killing any viable effort to have a single coherent system before it starts.
  • Franieck
    Franieck
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    I fully agree with the OP. PVE was great before the sustain changes were made. And it does seem like these were largely made to fix several PVP issues. I am not a PVP player, but I've seen so many posts about pvp not being balanced and, to be honest, whenever I tried to PVP it just sucked really bad, probably in some part due to these huge imbalances. What I mean to say is, I can definitely understand the PVP people and how their gameplay has been crap for the past months... BUT, as a PVER, I also feel the pain/annoyance of experiencing PVE made worse. If you had something that was working well, why mess with it?

    And with that in mind, I really have to be honest here and say that Zos is the only gaming company I know that makes me love it as much as hate it. They seem to make poor design choices and then try to fix them in the less consistent way possible. I have never seen so many skill/stats/ ability/ class/model changes in a mmo in such short time span. Every patch they change and break things and you never know what it will be (which is really painful if you enjoy the game, and we all do!). You get issues like the "megaserver" concept, which was intended to keep the game populated and feel more active (great for a MMO right?), but that has ultimately constrained the way the characters look (since physics and models would cause to much lag) while still remaining crap in cyrodill or in main cities.
    Another flawed design concept is this "We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game". This would not only be insanely difficult for the best designer out there, but impossible for companies who are not the absolute experts in dealing with this kind of thing (Zos has never proven to be even good at it). Moreover, even if we were optimistic and said they could manage to pull this off in the distant future, look at how much this has been putting the PVE community against the PVP community. You can find posts and posts about one blaming the other for the current issues with the balancing system. That is not on either community, that is on Zos flawed design choices. And as with every flawed idea, what you end up getting is mostly the opposite of what you were trying to reach. So Zos, good luck in your pursuit of a "single unified game" because the way you have been trying to fix this, has been only driving your community further apart...
  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
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    Forcefully trying to balance PVE and PVP at the same time is like death of ESO being pronounced - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.

    What im refering to?
    (...) Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game. (...)

    These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.

    Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".

    How long it's been that developers were trying to achieve the PVE+PVP balance? One year, two years and counting - in meantime we've seen things nerfed and buffed back and forth from one patch to another - pretty much time wasted on running circles.

    (an example of such change is how in Dark Brotherhood constitution passive was buffed to compensate PVE tanks for loss of bracing passive yet in Morrowind patch notes that change is basically being reverted because of complaints from PVP playerbase).

    If that time, these months and years would have been spent by developers on overhauling PVP system in a way where it could be balanced 100% separately from PVE environment, we would be enjoying already (or very soon) a much better balance in completely separated fields of PVP and PVE where one system wont be hurting other players:

    - no more PVP players complaining that power creep in PVE is runing their builds and abilities and other way around, no PVE players complaining that PVP complaints are inducing nerfs in abilities behaving perfectly fine in PVE

    Wrong try again.

    Care to elaborate?
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