Regarding patch 3.0: time for open-world smallscalers to pack their bags

SeventhJaff

Congratulations ZOS, you're in the process of successfully taking away all the available tools for solo/smallscale players in open-world PvP.

If we look at the context as a whole, with the latest patches ZOS removed counterplay almost entirely while being outnumbered, with the way certain abilities functions. (Unbashable SA, effective projectiles that can no longer be reflectable, undodgable/unblockable abilities & ultimates).

Now they've basically nerfed all sources of sustain significantly, including some sets for both magicka and stamina that could provide efficient sustain-to-damage ratios.

So what will happen in 3.0? Shocker! The non-counterable mechanics that are largely used becomes much more efficient due to the outnumbered people getting worn down easier than ever, in addition to not being able to pressure people 1vX in comparision to before due to the ways you'll have to itemize. Which leads to VERY LITTLE room to outplay.

I really don't want to be that guy but I have to say that this is the last straw for every smallscaler. Unironically, a majority of every patch note's balance section is like taking away from the poor and give to the rich. Within every patch you guys keep making this a numbers game, where is the fun and excitement in that? And let's be honest here, the only people that has been satisfied with the so called "balance changes" are probably the ones getting defeated while outnumbering you, like they should've been because they obviously lack game-knowledge. Yet you keep rewarding these players and engourage dumbed down game mechanics.

Although, I do get that you guys want to cater a wider audience. However, you aren't thinking of the negative consequences AT ALL.

For somebody that have been playing on and off since beta, I've seen every stage that this game has gone through. Legitimately, for years ZOS have been told by the community in BIG quantities
"don't do this, don't do that", whenever they've gone ahead with a change that could potentially be game-breaking.

I'm starting to assume that, the whole concept of smallscale in Cyrodiil is some kind of unwanted activity that you guys at ZOS want to get rid off entirely. If you keep up with this game design philosophy then have fun with losing parts of your loyal playerbase.

Conclusion:

ZOS have just came to a point where they've power crept the game substantially. What I mean is that every release of new content cause unbalance.

Game developers are primarily doing this to push new content/DLCs, as it gives an incentive to buy it for new player experiences. (This is where battlegorunds comes in to the picture). And I think we all can agree that they've gutted solo play in Cyrodiil COMPLETELY for majority of the classes.

Ultimately ZOS have effectively rendered Cyrodiil useless from a skill/competitive/challenge-seeking viewpoint. Good job!

So, if you fail to acknowledge the real points I'm making on the initial post regarding the core game mechanics and how it will play out, and you think that opting for a heavily sustain-based build or vice versa will help you in solo play. Then I honestly think you've not understood my complete thought process.

I don't care if X or Y are going to use A and B now, what I care about is how surprisingly stupid they've handled everything and not taken care of stuff seperately that clearly was the issue. They're obviously just bringing in more issues to the game.

If you're a solo player, this game will no longer provide a CONSISTENT GOOD GAME EXPERIENCE due to game mechanics. Of course it will work sometimes, but what's the point of playing and seeking a playstyle in content that's not virtually viable 95% of the time?

Any relevant thoughts or questions? Then type below.

Thanks.

Edit: pasted one of my answers from the comment section to the main topic because it covered a lot.

Edit 2: added my conclusion in response to my initial post to provide a more in-depth explanation of my thought processes and opinions.

zuto40

im packing right now, anyone know any good new mmo's?

LeifErickson

You didn't even state what they did specifically to make you think this way. What did they do that ruined small scale?

Quantum_V

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.


Can somebody tell me this is not true?

zyk

ZOS devs have openly discussed "lowering the ceilling" and simplifying gameplay. I think most changes starting with 2.3 were made with these goals in mind.

SeventhJaff

LeifErickson wrote: »

You didn't even state what they did specifically to make you think this way. What did they do that ruined small scale?

Good question, okay so if we look at the context as a whole, with the latest patches ZOS removed counterplay almost entirely while being outnumbered, with the way certain abilities functions. (Unbashable SA, effective projectiles that can no longer be reflectable, undodgable/unblockable abilities & ultimates).

Now they've basically nerfed all sources of sustain significantly, including some sets for both magicka and stamina that could provide efficient sustain-to-damage ratios.

So what will happen in 3.0? Shocker! The non-counterable mechanics that are largely used becomes much more efficient due to the outnumbered people getting worn down easier than ever, in addition to not being able to pressure people 1vX in comparision to before due to the ways you'll have to itemize. Which leads to VERY LITTLE room to outplay.

usmcjdking

alan_jaff wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

You didn't even state what they did specifically to make you think this way. What did they do that ruined small scale?

Good question, okay so if we look at the context as a whole, with the latest patches ZOS removed counterplay almost entirely while being outnumbered, with the way certain abilities functions. (Unbashable SA, effective projectiles that can no longer be reflectable, undodgable/unblockable abilities & ultimates).

Now they've basically nerfed all sources of sustain significantly, including some sets for both magicka and stamina that could provide efficient sustain-to-damage ratios.

So what will happen in 3.0? Shocker! The non-counterable mechanics that are largely used becomes much more efficient due to the outnumbered people getting worn down easier than ever, in addition to not being able to pressure people 1vX in comparision to before due to the ways you'll have to itemize. Which leads to VERY LITTLE room to outplay.

This was what 1vXing was like about 2 years ago.

Little room for error.

SeventhJaff

usmcjdking wrote: »

alan_jaff wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

You didn't even state what they did specifically to make you think this way. What did they do that ruined small scale?

Good question, okay so if we look at the context as a whole, with the latest patches ZOS removed counterplay almost entirely while being outnumbered, with the way certain abilities functions. (Unbashable SA, effective projectiles that can no longer be reflectable, undodgable/unblockable abilities & ultimates).

Now they've basically nerfed all sources of sustain significantly, including some sets for both magicka and stamina that could provide efficient sustain-to-damage ratios.

So what will happen in 3.0? Shocker! The non-counterable mechanics that are largely used becomes much more efficient due to the outnumbered people getting worn down easier than ever, in addition to not being able to pressure people 1vX in comparision to before due to the ways you'll have to itemize. Which leads to VERY LITTLE room to outplay.

This was what 1vXing was like about 2 years ago.

Little room for error.

This is not a valid comparision at all, you need to think about how certain abilities functioned back then opposed to now. Hence some broken tier ability-reworks and abilities that we have at the moment didn't even exist back then. Also don't forget that dynamic ultimate was a thing.

There's a big difference between "little room for error" and limited set of tools which hinders counterplay while being outnumbered.

LeifErickson

alan_jaff wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

You didn't even state what they did specifically to make you think this way. What did they do that ruined small scale?

Good question, okay so if we look at the context as a whole, with the latest patches ZOS removed counterplay almost entirely while being outnumbered, with the way certain abilities functions. (Unbashable SA, effective projectiles that can no longer be reflectable, undodgable/unblockable abilities & ultimates).

Now they've basically nerfed all sources of sustain significantly, including some sets for both magicka and stamina that could provide efficient sustain-to-damage ratios.

So what will happen in 3.0? Shocker! The non-counterable mechanics that are largely used becomes much more efficient due to the outnumbered people getting worn down easier than ever, in addition to not being able to pressure people 1vX in comparision to before due to the ways you'll have to itemize. Which leads to VERY LITTLE room to outplay.

Fair point about SA but everything else you said is hard to say as no one has done enough testing to see if that is true. If sustain is going to be hard next patch, it will be hard for the x as well. And if sustain is hard, people will go light and heavy. And trust me when I say it is much easier to 1vx people who are in light or heavy. I am very excited for this patch.

CyrusArya

Small scale will be harder but still possible, especially with the right groups. Im fairly certain 1vX will also be very much so possible, but mostly because 1vX often relies on the X being bumbling incompetents. You're not gonna do that to decent to good players now or then so I don't see a difference tbh.

Overall I'm very excited for this upcoming patch, because it feels like the game is shifting to put more of an emphasis on mechanics and skillful play rather than just being carried by raw stats and healing.

Montayva

Whilst a lot of the nerfs are definitely on the ouchie side, I really think some of the changes will promote actual skill rather than mindless spamming.

Change is scary. I get that. People hate moving out of their comfort zone. But until there has been a fair amount of testing I think it's unfair to make claims such as smallscale being dead

zyk

Montayva wrote: »

Whilst a lot of the nerfs are definitely on the ouchie side, I really think some of the changes will promote actual skill rather than mindless spamming.

Change is scary. I get that. People hate moving out of their comfort zone. But until there has been a fair amount of testing I think it's unfair to make claims such as smallscale being dead

It's not that at all. I love most of the sustain changes. I preferred TF during no CP week.

The problem are changes such as the set referenced above and others like:

Magician:

Renamed this passive to Siphoner.
This passive ability now reduces the enemy’s Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery for 3 seconds when you damage them with a Light or Heavy Attack, instead of reducing the cost of your Magicka abilities.

Changes such as these, IMO, provide unfair advantages to players who outnumber opponents.

Subversus

Admit it you're salty cause they absolutely destroyed magdk sustain

Xsorus

They basically didn't touch sorcs which are super over the top and gutted everyone else

Also they made caltrops stackable and increased its damage. The sheer fact that stupidity got added in on its boggles my mind

Satiar

Yea the caltrops change is wtf.

Xsorus

Caltrops:
Multiple player characters can now stack this ability and its morphs in the same area and damage the same target.
Reduced the size of this ability and its morphs to 8 meters from 12 meters.
Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 12 seconds from 30 seconds.
Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
Increased the damage of this ability and its morphs by approximately 75%.

Look at this ***..

this change right here, makes me instantly lose faith in ZOS

zyk

Satiar wrote: »

Yea the caltrops change is wtf.

wrobel t f ?

Darkonflare15

Xsorus wrote: »

Caltrops:
Multiple player characters can now stack this ability and its morphs in the same area and damage the same target.
Reduced the size of this ability and its morphs to 8 meters from 12 meters.
Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 12 seconds from 30 seconds.
Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
Increased the damage of this ability and its morphs by approximately 75%.

Look at this ***..

this change right here, makes me instantly lose faith in ZOS

But this makes the skill more useful in pve.

thankyourat

Most of the changes in this patch actually benefit solo players. mainly the nerf to sustain. The reason 1vX has gotten harder is because of how high sustain has become if X can sustain forever it means 1 will eventually get Zerged down. They siphoner cp passive is ridiculous though. Idk how they though light attacks reducing your opponents regen was a good idea

arkansas_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

Caltrops:
Multiple player characters can now stack this ability and its morphs in the same area and damage the same target.
Reduced the size of this ability and its morphs to 8 meters from 12 meters.
Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 12 seconds from 30 seconds.
Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
Increased the damage of this ability and its morphs by approximately 75%.

Look at this ***..

this change right here, makes me instantly lose faith in ZOS

It's a change that's meant to increase PVE DPS of stamina builds--they've done this before by making Curse stackable. Unfortunately it's going to have a big impact on PVP, and, to be honest, it's kinda crazy how we can't even get the PVP skill unlocked through PVPing balanced around PVP.

Derra

thankyourat wrote: »

Most of the changes in this patch actually benefit solo players. mainly the nerf to sustain. The reason 1vX has gotten harder is because of how high sustain has become if X can sustain forever it means 1 will eventually get Zerged down. They siphoner cp passive is ridiculous though. Idk how they though light attacks reducing your opponents regen was a good idea

I personally don´t think so.

It always required resources to get into a position where you could solo in the first place. You won´t realistically make it to that point with the resource changes.

Resource management on pts is worse (we´re talking way worse) than it is currently on nonCP - and you don´t see many soloers there for that reason.

I´m personally just disappointed that everything i feared in that regard will happen without further adjustments. We get a lot new and exciting sets that won´t see any use (alongside some old interesting sets that become obsolete) because anyone not wearing sustain focused sets won´t be competetive. Nice...

kevlarto_ESO

Let me guess here, I see butt hurt over the changes of not having infinite resource builds, being able to make a sustain build that were almost unkillable or needed 15 people to beat you down, and some people thought those types of builds were good for pvp, even the devs has said they do not like the unkillable builds, even though they are slow to do something about it, you had to realize they would change it at some point. and I am glad now maybe a little skill might be needed, and not just a meta build to get you buy. Or does it make your cheat engine to obvious, they will never have great pvp in this game again unless they can get a handle on this crap.

Izaki

I think that everyone is talking too quickly just like during last patch notes. I don't think much will change, builds will just be very different to what they are now.

Valencer

Think we might be going back to a proc set meta where everyone runs full sustain with procs. You can make your proc set tooltip much higher than it is on live because there's a new direct damage CP star that stacks with mighty/elemental expert.

Currently looking at a 16k selene tooltip without stacking 100 into both.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

Let me guess here, I see butt hurt over the changes of not having infinite resource builds, being able to make a sustain build that were almost unkillable or needed 15 people to beat you down, and some people thought those types of builds were good for pvp, even the devs has said they do not like the unkillable builds, even though they are slow to do something about it, you had to realize they would change it at some point. and I am glad now maybe a little skill might be needed, and not just a meta build to get you buy. Or does it make your cheat engine to obvious, they will never have great pvp in this game again unless they can get a handle on this crap.

Those unkillable builds require very little skill to play, so noone is happy with that really. With that imaginary cheat engine whining I think you might fit right in with big boss' gang on PC EU AD though.

NightbladeMechanics

Lol this thread pops up every patch notes day.

thankyourat

Derra wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Most of the changes in this patch actually benefit solo players. mainly the nerf to sustain. The reason 1vX has gotten harder is because of how high sustain has become if X can sustain forever it means 1 will eventually get Zerged down. They siphoner cp passive is ridiculous though. Idk how they though light attacks reducing your opponents regen was a good idea

I personally don´t think so.

It always required resources to get into a position where you could solo in the first place. You won´t realistically make it to that point with the resource changes.

Resource management on pts is worse (we´re talking way worse) than it is currently on nonCP - and you don´t see many soloers there for that reason.

I´m personally just disappointed that everything i feared in that regard will happen without further adjustments. We get a lot new and exciting sets that won´t see any use (alongside some old interesting sets that become obsolete) because anyone not wearing sustain focused sets won´t be competetive. Nice...

We will be forced into more sustain sets, maybe even some magicka builds will run drink instead of food now. I ran drink in 1.6 on my magblade. I don't think that's a bad thing though as it is now some builds don't run any recovery and still sustain fine. every update I find it gets harder to play solo. Players are literally just holding block or stacking shields until someone comes to help them. I feel the less survivable players are the easier it is to kill them. If sustain stays the way it and players just keep getting stronger 1vXing players of your same CP will be impossible no matter how skilled you are. Not to mention these sustain nerfs may push people out of heavy and into light and medium. That in itself will be a huge boost to solo play

FlyLionel

@zuto40 On console? Nooo...just have faith. Console players hear me out...trust the pc beta testers...Zos wants a massive rehaul, FINE...but taking things so precious as max stat/battleroar and igneous spam..yikes, been in the game forever. I think the major mending nerf was decent, in pvp you have to CC now and get your quick in for heals. For pve on a tank getting slapped with 20k hits off and on; those shields are not even real.

Hope. Faith. Trust. Morrowind. =|

Edit: Also please get this to Zos, make the caltrops pve smaller duration the garbage horse falling morph of caltrops; keep razor caltrops for pvp and have that other new smaller duration take the other morph.. no idea who to tag that to.

Rickter

@Derra - how is sustain way worse on the pts than it is on a noCP campaign? I didnt see too many skills cost increase in the patch notes just the changes to CP which arent taken into consideration on the no CP pvp campaigns.

as the the OP - i dont think small scale is dead. They want to do away with the infinite sustain builds. which we all agree they should. So lets give it a chance. if it doesnt work, zos will revert things back. we've seen changes changed back again. They moved their direction based on direct player feedback

zuto40

FlyLionel wrote: »

@zuto40 On console? Nooo...just have faith. Console players hear me out...trust the pc beta testers...Zos wants a massive rehaul, FINE...but taking things so precious as max stat/battleroar and igneous spam..yikes, been in the game forever. I think the major mending nerf was decent, in pvp you have to CC now and get your quick in for heals. For pve on a tank getting slapped with 20k hits off and on; those shields are not even real.

Hope. Faith. Trust. Morrowind. =|

Edit: Also please get this to Zos, make the caltrops pve smaller duration the garbage horse falling morph of caltrops; keep razor caltrops for pvp and have that other new smaller duration take the other morph.. no idea who to tag that to.

I've got a PC too, does that change your MMO answer

KingJ

zuto40 wrote: »

im packing right now, anyone know any good new mmo's?

@zuto40 if you find one let me know.

Derra

Rickter wrote: »

@Derra - how is sustain way worse on the pts than it is on a noCP campaign? I didnt see too many skills cost increase in the patch notes just the changes to CP which arent taken into consideration on the no CP pvp campaigns.

as the the OP - i dont think small scale is dead. They want to do away with the infinite sustain builds. which we all agree they should. So lets give it a chance. if it doesnt work, zos will revert things back. we've seen changes changed back again. They moved their direction based on direct player feedback

Well light armor looses 33% of their cost reduce - as does medium armor. Only 2% per armor piece now.
Heavy looses 42% of their resource regain.

That´s a lot.

I already dislike how sustainheavy nonCP is. They´re making it worse for CP (and nonCP is going to be a nightmare). Meh.

I´ve also never seen a true infinite sustain built that also dealt dmg (excluding harness). At the moment you can run a full rec set coupled with a full dmg set and still have to enchant for regeneration.
With the pts changes i don´t see how dmg sets can be utilized reasonably anymore at all.