Regarding patch 3.0: time for open-world smallscalers to pack their bags

RMerlin

Sallington wrote: »

Seriously! Put something in the freaking Undaunted skill line if PvE needs a non-class, non-weapon ground AOE.

Especially as there's so many useless skills in the Undaunted line - replace one with a ground AE, and leave the PvP skill lines for PvP.

Subversus

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.


Can somebody tell me this is not true?

If this is a thing I will be maining tank in battlegrounds 100%.

Fasold666

I really don't know why ZOS is making it easier for zerg players with every single patch. Now even the weird bow light attack spammer/lightning staff heavy attack spammer will have their use...
The amount of solo players (real ones, not the 'solo players' that run with 10 other 'solo players') is highly decreasing every patch. How can one mess up the pvp potential so bad?? ( this game definately used to have it)

Blackfyre20

KingJ wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.


Can somebody tell me this is not true?

This isn't real right?

It's real one of the BG set you can test if you aren't invited to the morrowwind beta.

50% less damage to all other players??! 15 seconds?? That's absurd. Sweet zerg tool. Also, is there a list of all the sets?

However I gotta say this makes me feel a tiny bit better about the huge major mending nerf to my stamplar. At least I can still purge this BS.

DirtyWizard

Any consideration that change to caltrops is a way to give stamina a viable aoe skill, similar to proximity detonation(which stacks in multiples and does significant damage)? I don't think anyone would argue that the best way to take down large groups currently is Eye/Proxy coordination. When I run in groups, raid lead is asking about how many destro ults and negates are up, doesnt really care about my dawnbreaker. coordinating caltrops could be a way for stamina users to be effective in a group situation. and boosting damage of caltrops? it currently ticks for around 500 damage on my character (out healed by every relevant HoT there is). 75% increase just brings it in line with other ground aoes, which are rarely seen in cyrodiil, and no one is complaining about stacking lightning splash/path of shadows etc.

Magıc

KappaHD

Hexys

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Magıc

Oh, oh, oh
It's magic you know
Never believe, it's not so
It's magic, you know
Never believe, it's not so

e: h o is censored.......................

Kartalin

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Magıc

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

LeifErickson

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Derra

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Are you reading what i wrote?

I already don´t enchant full dmg and i don´t know any light or medium armor builds that does without running out of recources except for harness hardened stacking sorcs (which i think should have been nerfed).

no need to get rude. I was thinking more along the lines of 1 regen and 2 cost reduc.

and FYI: i run serpent mundus and full weapon dmg jewels glyphs, by the way and sustain fine on noCP campaign.

Sorry wasn´t meant to be rude.

The problem with that approach is - it´s simply more efficient to utilize a full sustain set instead of a full dmg set and enchant dmg to the point where you can afford it.

Also builds that already do utilize sustain on their jewelry will not be able to adapt to the changes. I can adjust my build by only 367 magica regeneration.
That is all i can possibly get. I would need about 800 to compensate - which is impossible to get. There is no adjusting just rebuilding with sustain sets.

@Rickter on your noCP comment: That´s nice. But stamina has 20% less costs on nonCP currently. You also will loose 1% costreduce per piece of medium or 42% of your constitution passive and see a 5% cost increase on all stamina abilities aswell.

Derra

LeifErickson wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Do you mean 1.6 where you had no stacking cost increase to anything?
1.6 where you had absolutely brutal dmg output due to battlespirit only being a 10%/15% debuff?
1.6 where costreduction jewelry was the only thing not nerfed by the stat inflation resulting in everyone wearing any dmg set they possibly could because you´d never go out of resources?

Sustain on pts with CP enabled is worse than currently on live on nonCP. I have no idea how you can compare that to 1.6 where it was literally absolutely impossible to ever run out of resources even when streaking 14 times in a row.

Kas

i'm curious w.r.t. how it will work out. So far I only know:

1) Sustain is incredibly hard compared to live (I play AS a lot but I don't think it is really worse than that, however, I manage resources with heavy attacks when possibile and that seems to be a way that's not nerfed). I think no-CP in 3.0 mgiht mean you go for FULL sustain gear, i.e. two sustain sets.

2) Imho feel-good sustain is still VERY possible. Just not with non sustain sets with damage glyphs. A template stamplar with 3x cost reduct glyphs and dubious camoran drink seemed easily fine.

3) I am very confident that I will be able to solo/small-scale like that.

4) While I really like a nerf to sustain, I agree that it's a nerf to "playing well". Players that ignore sustain will be weak in general, but will have even better chances (for a quick kill) when outnumbering a better player that is now build for sustain. I am afraid proper 1vX will be even more of mistforming around a tree - until your enemies are out of resources... I don't think that's what either side wants to see.

5) I have tried 0 PvE so far but I think sustaining there will be super interesting. Sure, everyone's gonna be weaker, but maybe some players develop rotations which include full heavy attacks, or sustain sets, or actively search for the regen buff from moondancer, etc etc. Right now, can simply optimize your rotation+gear for the highest damage output possible. Adding sustain as another dimension, makes PvE more complex/difficult and I think I like this.
That said, complex and difficult means, I expect the biggest blacklash and forum QQ right here.

Finally, you can always sustain if you really build for it. Ever tried a HA stamsorc or stam dk with cost reduction jewellery and heroic slash + msa weapon? You can easily sustain HA->HS->Bash rotations on Azuras with 0 extra sustain, today. You won't need full regen in 3.0 either

Hexys

Derra wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Do you mean 1.6 where you had no stacking cost increase to anything?
1.6 where you had absolutely brutal dmg output due to battlespirit only being a 10%/15% debuff?
1.6 where costreduction jewelry was the only thing not nerfed by the stat inflation resulting in everyone wearing any dmg set they possibly could because you´d never go out of resources?

Sustain on pts with CP enabled is worse than currently on live on nonCP. I have no idea how you can compare that to 1.6 where it was literally absolutely impossible to ever run out of resources even when streaking 14 times in a row.

My base point of view was just that the meta will shift to light/medium and in general players will have more damage due to everyone being more squishy.

SeventhJaff

ZOS have just came to a point where they've power crept the game substantially. What I mean is that every release of new content cause unbalance.

Game developers are primarily doing this to push new content/DLCs, as it gives an incentive to buy it for new player experiences. (This is where battlegorunds comes in to the picture). And I think we all can agree that they've gutted solo play in Cyrodiil COMPLETELY for majority of the classes.

Ultimately ZOS have effectively rendered Cyrodiil useless from a skill/competitive/challenge-seeking viewpoint. Good job!

So, if you fail to acknowledge the real points I'm making on the initial post regarding the core game mechanics and how it will play out, and you think that opting for a heavily sustain-based build or vice versa will help you in solo play. Then I honestly think you've not understood my complete thought process.

I don't care if X or Y are going to use A and B now, what I care about is how surprisingly stupid they've handled everything and not taken care of stuff seperately that clearly was the issue. They're obviously just bringing in more issues to the game.

If you're a solo player, this game will no longer provide a CONSISTENT GOOD GAME EXPERIENCE due to game mechanics. Of course it will work sometimes, but what's the point of playing and seeking a playstyle in content that's not virtually viable 95% of the time?

Derra

Hexys wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Do you mean 1.6 where you had no stacking cost increase to anything?
1.6 where you had absolutely brutal dmg output due to battlespirit only being a 10%/15% debuff?
1.6 where costreduction jewelry was the only thing not nerfed by the stat inflation resulting in everyone wearing any dmg set they possibly could because you´d never go out of resources?

Sustain on pts with CP enabled is worse than currently on live on nonCP. I have no idea how you can compare that to 1.6 where it was literally absolutely impossible to ever run out of resources even when streaking 14 times in a row.

My base point of view was just that the meta will shift to light/medium and in general players will have more damage due to everyone being more squishy.

I can´t really say that i agree.

When running solo duo the majority of enemies we kill are already light and medium armor (sorcs and nbs). Due to the requirement of building more for sustain dmg against those will inevitably drop.

LeifErickson

Derra wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Do you mean 1.6 where you had no stacking cost increase to anything?
1.6 where you had absolutely brutal dmg output due to battlespirit only being a 10%/15% debuff?
1.6 where costreduction jewelry was the only thing not nerfed by the stat inflation resulting in everyone wearing any dmg set they possibly could because you´d never go out of resources?

Sustain on pts with CP enabled is worse than currently on live on nonCP. I have no idea how you can compare that to 1.6 where it was literally absolutely impossible to ever run out of resources even when streaking 14 times in a row.

I was talking about the hopeful armor weight switch.

ManDraKE

Solo/Small scale will be easier imo because of this reasons:

- people will have to invest more in sustain so they will be doing less damage
- sustain in heavy armor will be way harder. This will force people in heavy to drop a lot of dmg in order to sustain (making them less way less dangeours) or switching to light/medium which will make them more easy to kill

Overall, people will be doing less damage and/or dying quickly because of the switch to light/armor, and this two things are the key to solo pvp/smallscale. Also that playstyle has always been about using your skill to play against the odds, making the sustain harder will wide the gap between good and bad players, right now any mediocre player can be a challenge when fighting outnumbered because they do a lot of damage and can survive just by holding block and having 5 heavy on. People is being carried by heavy armor, infinite resources and instant damage, in the past bad players were easy to fight because they were running out of resources and because kills required good combos that they couldn't land.

----

Derra, you cried for 2 weeks in the forum when they changed all the campains to non-cp for a couple of days, and now you are crying with the sustain nerf. What about you adapt to having to manage your resources and save yourself countless hours posting in the forums?

Markrox

Being an incredibly tanky damage dealer, where sustaining your resources is a trivial after thought, isn't competitive, challenging or even fun. Imagine a classic MMO skill cooldown system, where over time, CD's cease to be part of the game through powercreep. You'd just hammer the same few skills endlessly, which pretty accurately describes eso pvp, and has done for a long time.

I see no correlation to where having to actually manage your resources, in a resource based game, is in any way lowering the skill cap. In fact it's quite the opposite.

As for "ruining smallscale," being outnumbered vs terrible players will still exist. These changes are the correct step in an attempt to have even a moderately interesting combat system in time for battlegrounds. I'd say the only valid complaint in this entire thread is that we'll see a meta shift back to sustain sets, which creates limited options.

Magıc

Markrox wrote: »

Being an incredibly tanky damage dealer, where sustaining your resources is a trivial after thought, isn't competitive, challenging or even fun. Imagine a classic MMO skill cooldown system, where over time, CD's cease to be part of the game through powercreep. You'd just hammer the same few skills endlessly, which pretty accurately describes eso pvp, and has done for a long time.

I see no correlation to where having to actually manage your resources, in a resource based game, is in any way lowering the skill cap. In fact it's quite the opposite.

As for "ruining smallscale," being outnumbered vs terrible players will still exist. These changes are the correct step in an attempt to have even a moderately interesting combat system in time for battlegrounds. I'd say the only valid complaint in this entire thread is that we'll see a meta shift back to sustain sets, which creates limited options.

Don't forget proc sets too in order to actually deal damage while wearing sustain sets.

The current meta is disgusting. Sustain is so easy for not just the good players but the terrible players too. This game has no skill involved. Even in duels (which some people somehow still think are relevant in todays meta), there is a severe lack of skill involved anymore (resources wise). People used to duel for fun and to improve their open world builds, which containted sustain + damage (quoting Hexys here). Now people just run a combination of 7th/ravager/alch/fury etc. with no sustain sets at all and they'll never run out of resources because of how broken sustain is.

Zos took a step in the right direction with the PTS changes but probably went overboard with some of them. However my bias against magplars makes me thank Zos they're getting destroyed.

#fuckmagplars

Derra

LeifErickson wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

If you want to kill anyone, you will need a damage window. This damage window has many factors like how much damage do you have? How much damage can your enemy take? Can you achieve line of sight easier for more windows? etc. etc.

A really big reason that many 1vX doesn't work right now is because your enemy's don't die, they are way to tanky, have to much health and in the Homestead patch also to much damage. With this huge nerf to ressource management we will see a huge drop in heavy armor players while also way less magplars due to class nerfs.

I think 3.0 will feel like 1.6 again in which light/medium is the meta with everyone having good damage but really squishy, which means you gotta have more skill in order to survive an outnumbered figh as your mistakes will be punished!

Completely agree.

Do you mean 1.6 where you had no stacking cost increase to anything?
1.6 where you had absolutely brutal dmg output due to battlespirit only being a 10%/15% debuff?
1.6 where costreduction jewelry was the only thing not nerfed by the stat inflation resulting in everyone wearing any dmg set they possibly could because you´d never go out of resources?

Sustain on pts with CP enabled is worse than currently on live on nonCP. I have no idea how you can compare that to 1.6 where it was literally absolutely impossible to ever run out of resources even when streaking 14 times in a row.

I was talking about the hopeful armor weight switch.

Well to that i agree to some extend.

But i can´t see myself dealing more damage compared to the current situation.

Edit: Actually i have to specify that a little more. I can´t see myself killing semi decent medium and light armor players faster. Most likely the people who (ab)used heavy armor block builds will die considerably faster.

Xsorus

Magıc wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

You guys aren't thinking of the true trolling factor of this Set....

Magicka Nightblade, with speed set, and nothing but Magicka Recovery running the Undaunted Ranged Taunt (or Heavy Frost Staff)

Taunt a person, Stealth away...Taunt another person, Stealth Away...just keep yourself stealthed the whole time while applying Taunts to the enemy.

Magıc

Xsorus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

You guys aren't thinking of the true trolling factor of this Set....

Magicka Nightblade, with speed set, and nothing but Magicka Recovery running the Undaunted Ranged Taunt (or Heavy Frost Staff)

Taunt a person, Stealth away...Taunt another person, Stealth Away...just keep yourself stealthed the whole time while applying Taunts to the enemy.

That is what we call c_____

Iyas

Xsorus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

You guys aren't thinking of the true trolling factor of this Set....

Magicka Nightblade, with speed set, and nothing but Magicka Recovery running the Undaunted Ranged Taunt (or Heavy Frost Staff)

Taunt a person, Stealth away...Taunt another person, Stealth Away...just keep yourself stealthed the whole time while applying Taunts to the enemy.

Can at least imagine 15 ppl doing that on EU Server atm the new Patch arrives

Xsorus

Iyas wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

You guys aren't thinking of the true trolling factor of this Set....

Magicka Nightblade, with speed set, and nothing but Magicka Recovery running the Undaunted Ranged Taunt (or Heavy Frost Staff)

Taunt a person, Stealth away...Taunt another person, Stealth Away...just keep yourself stealthed the whole time while applying Taunts to the enemy.

Can at least imagine 15 ppl doing that on EU Server atm the new Patch arrives

Oh i'm sure as hell going to do it....The Sheer trolling of it is to much to pass up.

Xeniph

Xsorus wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Vanguard’s Challenge
2 - Maximum Health
3 - Maximum Health
4 - Healing Taken
5 - When you taunt an enemy Player, they deal 50% less damage to all other Players but 100% more damage to you for 15 seconds.

Can somebody tell me this is not true?

Someone just hit their destro ult? Taunt them and streak away to save your teammates.

Someone 1v5ing you and your teammates? Taunt them so they become useless against everyone but you (who are ironically playing a tank).

You guys aren't thinking of the true trolling factor of this Set....

Magicka Nightblade, with speed set, and nothing but Magicka Recovery running the Undaunted Ranged Taunt (or Heavy Frost Staff)

Taunt a person, Stealth away...Taunt another person, Stealth Away...just keep yourself stealthed the whole time while applying Taunts to the enemy.

Can at least imagine 15 ppl doing that on EU Server atm the new Patch arrives

Oh i'm sure as hell going to do it....The Sheer trolling of it is to much to pass up.

As will I, just make sure to use Tremorscale for good measure :P

Alphaa

Since they are making it a lot more 'difficult' to manage our resources, isn't it about time they removed cost poisons? And changed that stupid CP that decreases Regen?

How can ZoS really say they want the game to be about managing resources when you have no way of controlling your resources when other players are doing it for you... Dumbest patch notes I ever saw.

rfennell_ESO

Alphaa wrote: »

Since they are making it a lot more 'difficult' to manage our resources, isn't it about time they removed cost poisons? And changed that stupid CP that decreases Regen?

How can ZoS really say they want the game to be about managing resources when you have no way of controlling your resources when other players are doing it for you... Dumbest patch notes I ever saw.

they really ought reduce the cost poisons effectiveness with the changes they are making, that's for sure and at least.

Erynyes

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Alphaa wrote: »

Since they are making it a lot more 'difficult' to manage our resources, isn't it about time they removed cost poisons? And changed that stupid CP that decreases Regen?

How can ZoS really say they want the game to be about managing resources when you have no way of controlling your resources when other players are doing it for you... Dumbest patch notes I ever saw.

they really ought reduce the cost poisons effectiveness with the changes they are making, that's for sure and at least.

it's down to 30% from 60%, i imagine that with the new light heavy attack meta, it will still be a huge pain