How to reward Tanks for doing dungeons...

Hand_Bacon

Sometimes, if bored, I queue up as a tank for a random. Mainly because I know there are random people waiting. I figure its my 2 mins of Tamriel community service. It is nice if everyone in group, including myself, at least says "ty4g" once its complete.

ifDoubtNerfIt

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Sometimes, if bored, I queue up as a tank for a random. Mainly because I know there are random people waiting. I figure its my 2 mins of Tamriel community service. It is nice if everyone in group, including myself, at least says "ty4g" once its complete.

I'm doing random normals with my magSorc as a tank with 20k Shields and Inner Rage. Am I doing it right ?

Jamini

The reason there are so few tanks is that there is a plethora of bad DDs... and good tanks don't want to run with *** DPS in the group. This is especially true if they are in a support setup.

When I can get pledge groups in literally an instant, and have guildies that will pretty much ask me to run dungeons/pledges with them daily, and have multiple trials runs weekly, why should I bother to run with a potentially slow pug who can't carry himself. I still might (and do) if I feel like it, but random groups range from fantastic 600CP HMVMAW players to bow light attack spammers. Why should tanks, who are already uncommon enough, submit themselves to that risk when they could just run with their friends.

You want more tanks? Give each class a few damaging skills that have some health scaling. Tie them to skills that tanks normally would not use. Give tank players, and folks that want to do dungeons in heavy armor, a means to actually deal "mediocre" and not "terrible" DPS. Right now tank damage is, at the top end, between 10-20% that of an average-good DD (4k-10k ST vs 20-40k ST). Give tanks some options to boost their output at cost of utility, let's say 25-50% of an average-good DD (10k-20k ST) and you will see more tanks play. Alternatively, give tanks to apply CC to both players and mobs and allow them to play as a true controller rather than as a warhorn bot.

Otherwise, accept that tanks are going to be rare and sought-after. If you really want one and can't find someone, then run one yourself.

Hand_Bacon

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

I'm doing random normals with my magSorc as a tank with 20k Shields and Inner Rage. Am I doing it right ?

You should be punished through a creative combination of loading screens and bad rng.

Royaji

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Sometimes, if bored, I queue up as a tank for a random. Mainly because I know there are random people waiting. I figure its my 2 mins of Tamriel community service. It is nice if everyone in group, including myself, at least says "ty4g" once its complete.

I'm doing random normals with my magSorc as a tank with 20k Shields and Inner Rage. Am I doing it right ?

You are doing it wrong. It's normal so you don't even need a tank. Slot some viable skill instead of Inner Fire and just nuke them.

Rev Rielle

xblackroxe wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Personally it's got nothing to do with any lack of tanks. That is not the problem. Nor much of anything that is talked about in this thread. The main problem are the parasites (rude players) that populate such things. There is 'no way in hell' (their words) some of my friends would join the dungeon finder because of this, and it's honestly really unfortunate. And caustic threads that appear by the bigoted players on this forum complaining about 'non elite' and 'non meta' players ruining things does not help matters either.

If the community was more welcoming there would never be a problem. For there are plenty of players out there, tanks and otherwise.

Sadly, we have no one to blame but ourselves for this situation.

I'm curious which forum you are talking about because it sure as hell ain't this one.

All I ever see here is people complaining how elitist this game is and how everybody is bashing new players, constantly kicking everyone below cp cap and generally is rude to other people. In the almost 2 years I'm playing now I maybe left the group 5-10 times because I couldn't be bothered anymore. And even less times I have seen someone act the way the forums describe us.

Well I guess you have a differing opinion, and that's perfectly fine. Sounds like you've been lucky (or alternatively others have been unlucky), or that your ideal of what is and isn't acceptable differs somewhat too. It's a grey area after all.

I'm just translating my, and others, experiences here as to why I think the problem is what it is. And it 'sure as hell' is this forum. But you're right in so much as for the most part the opinions expressed and statements made about the games on the forums don't tend to hold true in many situations in the actual game. I wish this particular one feel into that category. I really do. But all evidence I've seen, heard, experienced just doesn't make that so.

Ep1kMalware

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Personally it's got nothing to do with any lack of tanks. That is not the problem. Nor much of anything that is talked about in this thread. The main problem are the parasites (rude players) that populate such things. There is 'no way in hell' (their words) some of my friends would join the dungeon finder because of this, and it's honestly really unfortunate. And caustic threads that appear by the bigoted players on this forum complaining about 'non elite' and 'non meta' players ruining things does not help matters either.

If the community was more welcoming there would never be a problem. For there are plenty of players out there, tanks and otherwise.

Sadly, we have no one to blame but ourselves for this situation.

Haha man, idk about your friends experiences but what I see people talk about here on the forums and what I see in the game are two different things. I see plent of dps I wouldnt do trials with but actually having to kick a dd is a less than once a month occurance. Normal dungeons have some 'interesting' players but when you can lighy attack everything to death I don't really care if they spam snipe the whole time. Afaic(are) normal dungeons are a suitible place for lowbies to roll play amd goof off a little. I pull >33k self buffed dps on a stam templar with great dmg mitigation. Honestly the bosses only have like 200k-1.5m health, i'll do the bulk of the dmg then kinda 'pretend' while they get some hits in.

Even most vet dungeon groups I end up in honestly aren't that bad. Only kick in the last month or so was for vollenfell daily. Tank was a magsorc with an ice staff. ..we all know how that'll turn out. We didn't que for vet daily to get 1 key so it was a unanimous kick right off the bat. The horror stories are completely real, but not as often as people claim.

At least in my own subjective experiences.

OldGamerESO

I love tanking. I have 4 well geared tanks. But I don't love the random pug community. There is no incentive that makes me want to queue with dungeon finder so I can be abused by the jerks I find there. This has been posted about a million times. Too many people you get in the dungeon finder are mean, rude, insulting and selfish.

I don't care how well geared they are and I never even check their levels when I join the party. I am easy going that way.

But I always get tense when I am about to queue because I just *know* I am going into combat... not with NPC's but with player-bullies and anonymous selfish jerks.

Like people who:

• Rush off and starts killing groups before people have even zone all the way in.
• People who have no patience for those running the first time quest there (and who drop group at end before quest is complete)
• Constantly give me (the tank) "advice" like pull him here, face him that way, why aren't you doing this? why aren't you doing that? I don't mind advice from guild mates on TeamSpeak or Discord, but some random guy who constantly criticizes is annoying.
• Who has to sort their bags and constantly, or even have their merchant follow them around
• Won't communicate... at all.. If you ask them a question, they won't respond.
• Who complain constantly about the healing, dps, tanking whatever.
• Who tells us constantly we are too slow and they don't need us anyway since they can solo the place but need the random so stop wasting their time
• Prints out there DPS meter after every fight
• Uses profanity and insults

Moral of the story: treat your tanks (and everyone else) nicer and maybe there will queue up more instead of only doing with their guild/friends

Rev Rielle

Tank was a magsorc with an ice staff. ..we all know how that'll turn out. We didn't que for vet daily to get 1 key so it was a unanimous kick right off the bat.

This is pathetic 'man'. You are part of the problem.

Tan9oSuccka

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Tanking is easy. People just dont like to lead. You dont have to respec attribute points or cp just have health enchants and sturdy on all gear as long as you have point into stamina

Active tanking is not hard, but more challenging than DPS.

DPS is easy mode, that's why nobody runs a tank.

Most glass cannon DPS= Attack the boss, attack the boss, attack the boss, yell at healer, attack the boss, yell at tank, attack the boss.

Random DPS: Look at my 46K Magicka Bro!

Me: Look at his dead, 12K health corpse on the ground. *shrugs*

xblackroxe

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Tanking is easy. People just dont like to lead. You dont have to respec attribute points or cp just have health enchants and sturdy on all gear as long as you have point into stamina

Active tanking is not hard, but more challenging than DPS.

DPS is easy mode, that's why nobody runs a tank.

Most glass cannon DPS= Attack the boss, attack the boss, attack the boss, yell at healer, attack the boss, yell at tank, attack the boss.

Random DPS: Look at my 46K Magicka Bro!

Me: Look at his dead, 12K health corpse on the ground. *shrugs*

Pls just stop.

Doing dps isn't ez mode. Its just as challenging to do it right as tanking or healing its just that its more crucial to have a good healer or tank to finish stuff.

ifDoubtNerfIt

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

I'm doing random normals with my magSorc as a tank with 20k Shields and Inner Rage. Am I doing it right ?

You should be punished through a creative combination of loading screens and bad rng.

Royaji wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Sometimes, if bored, I queue up as a tank for a random. Mainly because I know there are random people waiting. I figure its my 2 mins of Tamriel community service. It is nice if everyone in group, including myself, at least says "ty4g" once its complete.

I'm doing random normals with my magSorc as a tank with 20k Shields and Inner Rage. Am I doing it right ?

You are doing it wrong. It's normal so you don't even need a tank. Slot some viable skill instead of Inner Fire and just nuke them.

Why some people don't understand my sarcasm ;_;
And btw. having 1 ability of 10 possible being Inner Fire, how does that make me not able to nuke a boss? O.o
I still can slot 9 abilitys you know ?

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Tanking is easy. People just dont like to lead. You dont have to respec attribute points or cp just have health enchants and sturdy on all gear as long as you have point into stamina

Active tanking is not hard, but more challenging than DPS.
DPS is easy mode, that's why nobody runs a tank.
Most glass cannon DPS= Attack the boss, attack the boss, attack the boss, yell at healer, attack the boss, yell at tank, attack the boss.
Random DPS: Look at my 46K Magicka Bro!
Me: Look at his dead, 12K health corpse on the ground. *shrugs*

It is harder than being a regular 25k+ dd, but it's way easier to tank than to achieve 40k+ dps.

Hand_Bacon

xblackroxe wrote: »

Doing dps isn't ez mode. Its just as challenging to do it right as tanking or healing its just that its more crucial to have a good healer or tank to finish stuff.

Quoted for truth. However, in a general sense, I think the majority of people who queue for dps fit the expectation of ez mode. Not those that run regular groups or trials, but the majority you find through the group finder. Not that its their fault, they just haven't vested enough to learn or understand all the aspects of dps.

idk

tl;dr

If one does not want to run a dungeon as a tank that is fine. I do not see any reason for a special reward. Besides, why does anyone run a dungeon.

Healers have one or two dungeons that offer them gear. Once they have it why continue based on what seems to be OPs premise?

DPS have good gear that comes from one or two dungeons as well. Guess they have no reason to run dungeons once they have that gear.

So it is no different that it is for tanks. Oh, one of the most common raid sets for tanks drops in a dungeon. Ebon.

I tank because I enjoy it. Oh, and if I am doing a dungeon via GF, the short queue time is reward enough. DPS have to sit and wait and wait and wait. It does not matter if it helps a dps get a faster queue pop. If it is not what you want to do then do not.

Enjoy

Zinaroth

You guys are all missing the point of the OP:

In order to reduce everyones queue times we need more tanks in the queue.
How do you get tanks to queue? You incentivize them with extra bonuses when completing dungeons.
This system works really well in other MMORPGs and it would be a great addition to this game.

Think it's unfair someone gets more rewards for completing the same dungeon as you?
- Feel free to roll a tank and get the rewards too; this will benefit the community as a whole.

Tanks get rewarded with extra loot and DD/Healers get rewarded with less queue time - meaning more dungoens - meaning more loot during your play time.

WIN-WIN!

Catch my drift?

I think the OP raises a good point - he just over complicated it with points/arguments there were either unnecessary or just plain wrong which is why most of you jump the gun.

vamp_emily

Buy me legendary armor and I will tank

Tanks seem to be the hardest to find when FDR is looking to do trials. I can have 11 spots filled for a trial run in just a few minutes but that last spot is always a tank and it might take 30 minutes to find one. I think tanks just like standing around looking pretty instead of fighting.

I do have a tank but I have Imp BR gear on it. I really need to get good gear for it so I can help our guild out.

idk

Zinaroth wrote: »

You guys are all missing the point of the OP:

In order to reduce everyones queue times we need more tanks in the queue.
How do you get tanks to queue? You incentivize them with extra bonuses when completing dungeons.
This system works really well in other MMORPGs and it would be a great addition to this game.

Think it's unfair someone gets more rewards for completing the same dungeon as you?
- Feel free to roll a tank and get the rewards too; this will benefit the community as a whole.

Tanks get rewarded with extra loot and DD/Healers get rewarded with less queue time - meaning more dungoens - meaning more loot during your play time.

WIN-WIN!

Catch my drift?

I think the OP raises a good point - he just over complicated it with points/arguments there were either unnecessary or just plain wrong which is why most of you jump the gun.

I agree OP over-complicate things with the very long post. However, there is no reason to try to encourage tanks or healers to queue up more than the system already has designed.

It could create a negative situation, players who do not know the first thing about tanking trying to tank.

Besides, tanks are not needed in most of the 4 man dungeons. Especially a true tank build. Most of them can be completed with a fake tank.

Hand_Bacon

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It could create a negative situation, players who do not know the first thing about tanking trying to tank.

Besides, tanks are not needed in most of the 4 man dungeons. Especially a true tank build. Most of them can be completed with a fake tank.

Agreed, but I think encouraging fake tanks could also have a negative impact.

Zinaroth

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

You guys are all missing the point of the OP:

In order to reduce everyones queue times we need more tanks in the queue.
How do you get tanks to queue? You incentivize them with extra bonuses when completing dungeons.
This system works really well in other MMORPGs and it would be a great addition to this game.

Think it's unfair someone gets more rewards for completing the same dungeon as you?
- Feel free to roll a tank and get the rewards too; this will benefit the community as a whole.

Tanks get rewarded with extra loot and DD/Healers get rewarded with less queue time - meaning more dungoens - meaning more loot during your play time.

WIN-WIN!

Catch my drift?

I think the OP raises a good point - he just over complicated it with points/arguments there were either unnecessary or just plain wrong which is why most of you jump the gun.

I agree OP over-complicate things with the very long post. However, there is no reason to try to encourage tanks or healers to queue up more than the system already has designed.

It could create a negative situation, players who do not know the first thing about tanking trying to tank.

Besides, tanks are not needed in most of the 4 man dungeons. Especially a true tank build. Most of them can be completed with a fake tank.

You are right in both points.

Point one I already experienced - since people figured it would give less queue times.
This is especially bad when you get a DD sign up as tank because he figured there's be a dedicated healer and a DD sign up as healer because he figured there's be a dedicated tank.
So I don't really see how this would get better or worse if a reward system were to be implemented.

Tanks are not needed if you have a somewhat decent healer or vice versa - but you still need someone to sign up as tank.

The majority of the player base will not sign up as tank unless they are actually a dedicated tank - if everyone knew you didn't need a dedicated tank for the the non DLC pledges we wouldn't be having issues with long queue times.

So we can either wait the time it takes for the entire player base to realize this - and once they have they will have run all the dungeons they need - or we can impletement a reward system.

I don't see how people can be opposed to it - everybody wins this way.

So I don't agree when you say "there is no reason to encourage tanks to queue up more" - I think there is every reason!

Jemcrystal

Give all tanks free subscription.

kylewwefan

I wish we had dressing room on console. It's a little problem swapping gear and skills around....even with 300+ skill points and 10 different gear sets.

flizomica

a good tank will be in a full support setup

in gfinder (which is what you are referencing), the tank is going to have little to no control over the dps. no fun trying to slog through a dungeon on a tank when group dps is 15k

a healer can easily put on dps skills of choice (sweep/funnel health/crushing shock etc) because the stats that increase healing also increase your damage

the same cannot be said for tanking

DMuehlhausen

If you only have to wait for 1 hour feel blessed. I don't know what it is for DPS in a game like WoW anymore but when the Dungeon Finder first launch I vividly remember people complaining about 4+ hr queue times. I've always played Tank or Healer so I just giggled at them.

HatchetHaro

I've been playing on my stam DK toon for over a year now, and I know him inside and out. I'm an endgame trials DD and tank, and have tanked and dps'd through all vet dungeons on hardmode, and have also dps'd through all vet trials.

Here's the thing: so many things you've said here is untrue. The CP for stam DK tanking is very similar to the CP for stam DK dps, so you can leave it along when swapping gear. There is actually a lot of gear for tanks in dungeons, such as Ebon and Hulking Draugr, and even more crafted sets that can be mixed and matched to a tank's liking. Skillpoints really aren't a problem; you really only need the sword and board tree and the Earthen Heart tree passives. You can use your tanking build in questing and you would still kill stuff quickly. Tanks need money to upgrade several sets, but so do DDs and healers.

Tava's, Bloodspawn, and Dragon is a typical setup that you really do not have to follow. I've tanked through all vet dungeons on Tava's, Bloodspawn, Endurance and 2pc Alessia's Bulwark with a bow backbar without breaking a sweat or endangering my team, and even now with my Tava's, Dragon, and Potentate's, I'm still tanking extremely fine in vet dungeons, but this time with significantly higher warhorn uptime. Healthy jewellery is not a problem; just enchant your armor with stamina glyphs if you need stamina. As long as you're at around 30-33k health, you're completely fine with health. Heck, a tank build doesn't even need to be team oriented (though it is much preferred); here's a starter build I came up with when I respecced my tanking a long while ago, and it still works well: 4pc Lamae's, 3pc Alessia's, 3pc Endurance, and any monster set.

Master sword sucks. You'll get much better heals with a simple Igneous Shields + Vigor cast. I personally use the Maelstrom sword because I love the stamina return.

Here's the thing: there is enough incentive for people to play as tanks. There are plenty of gearsets around for tanks to pick and choose from depending on playstyle. Tanking is arguably the cheapest role to play.

You know what is actually the reason for the problem of the smaller amount of tanks and healers in the game?

It's that people only care about their goddamned FTC dps parses.

Magdalina

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Tanking is easy. People just dont like to lead. You dont have to respec attribute points or cp just have health enchants and sturdy on all gear as long as you have point into stamina

Active tanking is not hard, but more challenging than DPS.

DPS is easy mode, that's why nobody runs a tank.

Most glass cannon DPS= Attack the boss, attack the boss, attack the boss, yell at healer, attack the boss, yell at tank, attack the boss.

Random DPS: Look at my 46K Magicka Bro!

Me: Look at his dead, 12K health corpse on the ground. *shrugs*

The challenge is in being effective at "attacking boss". It's easy to just stand in red, getting BoL-spammed so you don't die, and light attacking boss doing roughly 4k dps, sure, but that makes you an awful dd. Try pulling something like 30-40k or more and you'll see why some people call it the most challenging role.
Thing is, there're limits to what healer/tank can and should do. Tank needs to keep boss/ads busy, apply some cc, buffs, debuffs etc. Once that's all down, their job is basically done, rinse and repeat. There's nothing more for them to do. I mean they can off dps some but it's generally highly ineffective, can offheal some, but it's also generally not effective. Healer has to keep group healed and again apply buffs/debuffs. And again once that's down, their job is done. I mean yes they can add to dps of course, it's nice if they do, but generally it's not their job.

A dps' job is not done til the boss is dead. You can have too much heals(no reason to keep spamming springs if there's no damage, if only once to proc spc), you can have too much tank(no reason to taunt boss every 3 seconds), but outside of some fights with certain mechanics maybe, you can't have too much dps. 20k, good. 30k, great. 40k, wonderful. 50k, omg everything melted it's so cool. There's almost infinite room for progress. AND they gotta keep doing all of it while still paying attention to mechanics because dead bodies do no damage.

Also, the reasons why we have so few tanks probably come down to 2 mainly - 1)inexperienced/new players. There's no need for a tank in open world. Why would you be dragging s&b around if you can just roflstomp everything with your impulse/whirlwind? I mean obviously some play tanks because rp or because they like them but basically there's no point outside of group play. Which all 16 main zones, 5 starter zones and 3 dlc zones have very little of. Your average solo/beginning player is more of a dps than anything else probably, and that's the role he'll queue for. 2)experienced players. These often do have a tank, either on a separate character or with an off-dps setup which they can easily swap to if they prefer to dps. But these often prefer not to tank pug dungeons because it can be extremely frustrating to do so. As a tank your damage output tends to be very low so you can't do anything to speed up fights, and if you end up with 2*5k dps people, yes you'll be stuck there for hours instead of 20 mins probably, even if you group up all the mobs perfectly, do your best to buff the group and take damage away from them. Moreover, you're also extremely likely to get blamed for wipes because you didn't save them from that untauntable oneshot they decided to stand in. While some tanks(like me on my trollplar sometimes) enjoy that extra bit of challenge, it's far not everyone that does.
The same reasoning applies for healers.

I don't think a "reward" would solve it, honestly not sure what would. Just how things are it seems.

zuto40

raj72616a wrote: »

tanks' reward is zero queue time with group finder.

Zero timer and tons of garbage dds

g0dlik3buthumbl3

Zinaroth wrote: »

You guys are all missing the point of the OP:

In order to reduce everyones queue times we need more tanks in the queue.
How do you get tanks to queue? You incentivize them with extra bonuses when completing dungeons.
This system works really well in other MMORPGs and it would be a great addition to this game.

Think it's unfair someone gets more rewards for completing the same dungeon as you?
- Feel free to roll a tank and get the rewards too; this will benefit the community as a whole.

Tanks get rewarded with extra loot and DD/Healers get rewarded with less queue time - meaning more dungoens - meaning more loot during your play time.

WIN-WIN!

Catch my drift?

I think the OP raises a good point - he just over complicated it with points/arguments there were either unnecessary or just plain wrong which is why most of you jump the gun.

I regularly use my tank to help others through Vet dungeons, trials and world bosses and would do it even more for extra rewards. Would also be great to see others start to tank so I could pug with my dd's

Flameheart

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Tanking is easy. People just dont like to lead. You dont have to respec attribute points or cp just have health enchants and sturdy on all gear as long as you have point into stamina

Active tanking is not hard, but more challenging than DPS.

DPS is easy mode, that's why nobody runs a tank.

Most glass cannon DPS= Attack the boss, attack the boss, attack the boss, yell at healer, attack the boss, yell at tank, attack the boss.

Random DPS: Look at my 46K Magicka Bro!

Me: Look at his dead, 12K health corpse on the ground. *shrugs*

Your post exactly shows the issue with PUGs nowadays, because as somebody who plays all 3 roles I can tell you that doing the dps thing right is not that easy as most people think. This attitude seems to be the main reason why you meet so many awful players calling themselves DD in PUGs.

LadyLavina

I'd take a Ham & Cheese sandwich as a reward.

code65536

Tanking is not hard to get into, and the rewards are just fine as they are.

The goal of any dungeon is to kill stuff--i.e., do DPS. Tanks and healers are support roles--most top-end tanks/healers are specialized to the point that they have almost no capacity to do DPS. Even the best tank and healer cannot carry bad DPS through a dungeon, but a good DPS can easily carry a bad tank and healer through any non-vet dungeon and most vet dungeons.

If you want more tanks to queue for dungeons, then what you need to do is to fix the skill gap in this game and teach people how to play. Because the biggest reason I don't queue as a tank is I would be at the mercy at the rest of the group, and I can't carry bad players like I could if I was a DPS.

I sometimes do queue as a tank, but it's always on my magblade saptank, since I can actually do damage or in some dungeons even gear-swap to full DPS and just put Inner Fire on my back bar. My trials tank, which has zero DPS potential, does a lot of dungeons, but always with a pre-formed group where I know the DPS is competent.

There isn't a shortage of tanks in the game. Just a shortage of tanks willing to roll the dice on a random group. And it's not a matter of insufficient reward--it's a matter of excessive risk.