When Will ZOS Start Listening to the Rest of Us?

RinaldoGandolphi

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

This is a really good post, and it hits on a lot of areas that are true, I'm not sure about the vision of the game moving forward. You right that the ship just doesn't seem to have a clear steering, and I'm not sure why that is. ZOS seems to have decent devs with experience so I'm not sure why things are the way they are many changes made are changes no one asked for such as moving 10% of Major Expedition speed bonus to sprint? Why? What did that accomplish exactly?

They keep re-inventing their game every 8 months we need small incremental fixes every few weeks not throwing the baby out with the bath water every few months.

ToRelax

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

This is a really good post, and it hits on a lot of areas that are true, I'm not sure about the vision of the game moving forward. You right that the ship just doesn't seem to have a clear steering, and I'm not sure why that is. ZOS seems to have decent devs with experience so I'm not sure why things are the way they are many changes made are changes no one asked for such as moving 10% of Major Expedition speed bonus to sprint? Why? What did that accomplish exactly?

They keep re-inventing their game every 8 months we need small incremental fixes every few weeks not throwing the baby out with the bath water every few months.

Well it seems to me they have slowed down a bit and started to state their reasons for balance changes in the patchnotes. We shall see how that will play out in the future though. They don't seem to see proc sets or poisons for example as as much of an issue as most small scale players, which is perplexing to me. It's not as if reducing how much skill matters and adding more RNG to combat helps new players learn the game nor old players to continue to enjoy it. I'd think players want to feel as if their decisions and actions matter, yet these mechanics have the opposite effect.

zyk

I think ZOS has done an amazing job of listening to and adapting the game to what has emerged as its primary audience: PVE ultra-casuals who are fans of single player TES games and not MMOs. Skyrim, in particular, attracted a huge mainstream audience to the TES series.

Unfortunately, in doing so, it has neglected some of the audiences the game was intended to appeal to before launch: core/hardcore gamers who enjoy challenging dungeons, raids, and PVP.

In a way, it is a bait and switch scenario -- but, probably due to an existential crisis, not malice.

Still, I think Zenimax has the resources to do a better job of providing the experience many of us paid for but do not feel we have received. Especially when it comes to Cyrodiil AvA.

Earthewen

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

out51d3r

Earthewen wrote: »

I see that AOE caps are being removed.

Got a source on that?

Earthewen

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

I couldn't help but respond to this with a loud I AGREE!!!!! The fact is, for far too long people, especially in zone and in the forums have disparaged playstyles if they differ from their own. That is arrogant at best. I love running in a raid. I love the people I raid with, which is what this is game is for me. I like smashing the opponents, but if I get smashed fair and square, it's "well played".

I know a LOT of raid leads out there and not one that I know of has EVER been listened to. In fact, all I hear is the opposite from them, which is why I'm asking the honest question and wanting an honest, clear answer.

Earthewen

out51d3r wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I see that AOE caps are being removed.

Got a source on that?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232730/aoe-caps-discussion

Been around in this world too long to not know that once we open this bottle, it will probably happen. People don't bring something up if they weren't testing the water because they were already thinking about doing it.

out51d3r

Earthewen wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I see that AOE caps are being removed.

Got a source on that?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232730/aoe-caps-discussion

Been around in this world too long to not know that once we open this bottle, it will probably happen. People don't bring something up if they weren't testing the water because they were already thinking about doing it.

That post is over a year old.

Soul_Demon

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

Seems the sound of silence is much louder than the chorus of "I was asked for input"
It says a lot, even if you take in to consideration that only a fraction of the players read the forums now.

How hard would it be to implement a forum that was locked to general posting where the Devs put proposed changes BEFORE they were implemented. Now consider what if the Mod's and Devs all selected 10 players each from the forums or game to tag as being able to post in that forum to get some sort of player base input prior to changes. Even if they went another way, it would at least be with feedback from their current players. Of the 10 invites the each of them received they could do their best to do an even division of what they thought were 1vx'ers/solo/small scale, large scale raids careful to include the PvE counterparts in that forum area. Change out the invitations to post on different topics often to more accurately reflect the many players and styles that the game currently has.

Players would have feedback for specific changes offering some perspectives maybe the development team would not otherwise get. Even if they are perusing the forums now for input, it has to be scattered and off topic at best and one location that would be protected from the 'noise' typical forum posts often have would be more efficient in getting that information. Worst case scenario the forums take on a more useful way to communicate with the players and to give new players a way to see how the active community interacts with the development team.

I am sure this isn't perfect, but it does seem easy and able to accommodate devs time and players feedback with emphasis on ensuring the players tapped for input are regularly changed with the topics. Just a thought.

Earthewen

out51d3r wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I see that AOE caps are being removed.

Got a source on that?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232730/aoe-caps-discussion

Been around in this world too long to not know that once we open this bottle, it will probably happen. People don't bring something up if they weren't testing the water because they were already thinking about doing it.

That post is over a year old.

This is a varying post, but the info I'm hearing from Morrowind isn't. Maybe you should check with someone who is testing it.

Earthewen

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Seems the sound of silence is much louder than the chorus of "I was asked for input"
It says a lot, even if you take in to consideration that only a fraction of the players read the forums now.

How hard would it be to implement a forum that was locked to general posting where the Devs put proposed changes BEFORE they were implemented. Now consider what if the Mod's and Devs all selected 10 players each from the forums or game to tag as being able to post in that forum to get some sort of player base input prior to changes. Even if they went another way, it would at least be with feedback from their current players. Of the 10 invites the each of them received they could do their best to do an even division of what they thought were 1vx'ers/solo/small scale, large scale raids careful to include the PvE counterparts in that forum area. Change out the invitations to post on different topics often to more accurately reflect the many players and styles that the game currently has.

Players would have feedback for specific changes offering some perspectives maybe the development team would not otherwise get. Even if they are perusing the forums now for input, it has to be scattered and off topic at best and one location that would be protected from the 'noise' typical forum posts often have would be more efficient in getting that information. Worst case scenario the forums take on a more useful way to communicate with the players and to give new players a way to see how the active community interacts with the development team.

I am sure this isn't perfect, but it does seem easy and able to accommodate devs time and players feedback with emphasis on ensuring the players tapped for input are regularly changed with the topics. Just a thought.

I would totally love to see something like that. I don't think it's out of the question. I agree that the forums get off track a lot!! I like how you put it about the "noise". I just think they need to be careful to include representation from all the play styles. Anything less would give only a one-sided picture.

I do find it interesting that no one can or will answer the question I've been asking all day. :-(

DaveMoeDee

Earthewen wrote: »

The reason I'm saying and asking this is because the current business model that these MMO companies are using are terrible. I have been watching LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) slowly dwindle to almost nothing. They literally were killing that game and it hadn't even reached Mordor yet. My question is this: If LOTRO all but dies with the same business model that ZOS is using, and they had the luxury of JRR Tolkien and Middle-Earth, the movies, and books, etc., plus the huge, global fan base for everything Hobbit and Elf and Numenor, why would ZOS, not having those luxuries, think they can survive this business model of money grabbing, kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and run to the next game mentality?

Your logic is flawed. LotR is a more valuable IP for movies. TES is a more valuable IP for games. What is the best-selling single player LotR game so far? I doubt it compares to Skyrim, or even Oblivion.

DaveMoeDee

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Esgameplaya1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

I can see why; who in there right mind would want to watch the same BS after three years on twitch.

Its a fair consideration - but not the issue at all. In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

Nah. People got better while you stagnated.

Just trollin'!

out51d3r

Earthewen wrote: »

Maybe you should check with someone who is testing it.

I'm not going to ask somebody to violate their NDA.

I'd be -quite- surprised if AOE caps were removed with Morrowind. It seems contrary to the development decisions they've made over the last year and a half. This strikes me as a meritless rumor. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it. Maybe even gleefully.

StackonClown

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This game is in a terrible place for 1vX experience. The success you have is due to your opponent either not coming to the fight with the right build or enough CP. These didnt use to be the heavily deciding factors.

lol - what is '1vX experience' ??
I mean do you treat that as an experience ? 1x10, 1x20, 1x30 ?

So you expect to win these consistently against say 20 players who are not beginners through awesomeness?
Often these things do come down to raw numbers.... like many things/

I think Zenny is attempting to reflect that

Earthewen

@out51d3r , I don't have any idea about an NDA. I'm not testing it. Perhaps, I'm just getting trolled on this. IDK. It wouldn't be the first time in my life and certainly won't be the last.

Either way, if they aren't planning that, cool. If they are planning it, let the whining begin.

FENGRUSH

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

Im sorry if I came off offensive. I really didnt mean to be at all. I respect you care and are asking a lot of these questions. Ive been at the forefront of a lot of these changes above. Ive played in all of the environments youre asking about.

To answer your question as a whole, there is no active discussion on Cyrodiil issues with any large groups or anyone at all. Its not something that is talked about. Balance concerns like a skill or how many people are hit by a skill are. Cyrodiils issues go beyond that and encompass a wide range of problems at this point.

Also - AOE caps are not being removed. That is a campaign Ive driven long and hard for, as most people who know me would know that. They were changed (from 50% reduc after first 6% to 25%). It was a big and relevant change. At this point, having them in probably only creates more calculations against performance than it does relevance in turning a fight. It is still relevant when a group of outnumbered players are trying to punch through a lot of healing. But much less than it was before. Nobody should get a free major protection because they happen to be standing next to at least 6 people. Especially when its stacking with... major protection

DaveMoeDee

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

This is my main apprehension about battlegrounds. It is yet another way to partition play, yet another dimension to balance. Changing skills not to address AvAvA issues and you get battlegrounds players angry along with the PvE players.

Personally, I have never quite recovered from blocking nerfs around launch, my first experience with the constant flux of MMOs. I stopped caring soon after that and lowered my expectations, accepting that MMOs are just a mess.

Earthewen

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

Im sorry if I came off offensive. I really didnt mean to be at all. I respect you care and are asking a lot of these questions. Ive been at the forefront of a lot of these changes above. Ive played in all of the environments youre asking about.

To answer your question as a whole, there is no active discussion on Cyrodiil issues with any large groups or anyone at all. Its not something that is talked about. Balance concerns like a skill or how many people are hit by a skill are. Cyrodiils issues go beyond that and encompass a wide range of problems at this point.

Also - AOE caps are not being removed. That is a campaign Ive driven long and hard for, as most people who know me would know that. They were changed (from 50% reduc after first 6% to 25%). It was a big and relevant change. At this point, having them in probably only creates more calculations against performance than it does relevance in turning a fight. It is still relevant when a group of outnumbered players are trying to punch through a lot of healing. But much less than it was before. Nobody should get a free major protection because they happen to be standing next to at least 6 people. Especially when its stacking with... major protection

No one should have an advantage either just because they are NOT standing next to six people. If you want that kind of fighting, that's fine. That's what I'm hearing the arenas are for. I do care about this game. I've spent a lot of money and time in it. I'm glad AOE caps are no being removed if that is the case. No one person should be able to take out 40 players even though I wish my small group could do just that. Still, it doesn't make sense! It also doesn't make sense, no matter how much I wish it did, for a few players to be able to punch through that healing when they have a lot of healers. It also doesn't make sense. That is the kind of thing that exactly DOES favor the small groups in many ways. The advantage of being in a group is the strength of the pack. Why should we nerf someone because he's standing next to six people? It's those kinds of comments that make me think that the larger group style of play is not being represented. Since you never answered my question about whether or not you lead a larger group or a small group, I can only guess.

I do thank you for apologizing. Sometimes, it is difficult to discern someone's tone in text alone.

zyk

StackonClown wrote: »

lol - what is '1vX experience' ??
I mean do you treat that as an experience ? 1x10, 1x20, 1x30 ?

So you expect to win these consistently against say 20 players who are not beginners through awesomeness?
Often these things do come down to raw numbers.... like many things/

I think Zenny is attempting to reflect that

I am not speaking about fengrush, but it's normal for elite-minded players to try to pull randoms from lanes (like between sej and alessia) to manufacture "1vX" content. Everyone has seen this routine of course: pull and kite until "X" number of opponents is achieved as players decide not to waste time chasing and go back to the lanes. If X isn't achieved and too many follow (meaning they wipe), they will rage about zerglings, etc...

It's really absurd. Who cares how good you are against public server randoms? When I played PVP games competitively -- meaning I was dedicated to becoming the best player I possibly could be -- absolutely no one did. What mattered was only the best vs the best. It was even considered shameful for a top tier player to be a ringer and play for a clan in a lesser league.

But keep stroking yourselves in a circle about the ungrouped casuals you wipe. So pro.

I'm not criticizing anyone for how they play, but rather the elitist attitudes that are presented in these discussions.

I encourage these wannabe pros to play a successful PVP game to see how well they do in a truly competitive scene. Actually, I'm sure most of you have, and this is why you come back to ESO.

Sincerely,

Super-Scrub-Plebtato

Takllin

Earthewen wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

Im sorry if I came off offensive. I really didnt mean to be at all. I respect you care and are asking a lot of these questions. Ive been at the forefront of a lot of these changes above. Ive played in all of the environments youre asking about.

To answer your question as a whole, there is no active discussion on Cyrodiil issues with any large groups or anyone at all. Its not something that is talked about. Balance concerns like a skill or how many people are hit by a skill are. Cyrodiils issues go beyond that and encompass a wide range of problems at this point.

Also - AOE caps are not being removed. That is a campaign Ive driven long and hard for, as most people who know me would know that. They were changed (from 50% reduc after first 6% to 25%). It was a big and relevant change. At this point, having them in probably only creates more calculations against performance than it does relevance in turning a fight. It is still relevant when a group of outnumbered players are trying to punch through a lot of healing. But much less than it was before. Nobody should get a free major protection because they happen to be standing next to at least 6 people. Especially when its stacking with... major protection

No one should have an advantage either just because they are NOT standing next to six people. If you want that kind of fighting, that's fine. That's what I'm hearing the arenas are for. I do care about this game. I've spent a lot of money and time in it. I'm glad AOE caps are no being removed if that is the case. No one person should be able to take out 40 players even though I wish my small group could do just that. Still, it doesn't make sense! It also doesn't make sense, no matter how much I wish it did, for a few players to be able to punch through that healing when they have a lot of healers. It also doesn't make sense. That is the kind of thing that exactly DOES favor the small groups in many ways. The advantage of being in a group is the strength of the pack. Why should we nerf someone because he's standing next to six people? It's those kinds of comments that make me think that the larger group style of play is not being represented. Since you never answered my question about whether or not you lead a larger group or a small group, I can only guess.

I do thank you for apologizing. Sometimes, it is difficult to discern someone's tone in text alone.

No, 6 ultimates are still greater than one regardless of how fast you can generate it. If you lose a 6v1 or worse your problem has nothing to do with a mechanic. It's not an advantage, it's a mechanic that allows you to have a better chance when facing multiple opponents. It doesn't even the odds, but it provides a glimmer of hope to the player that's already fighting outnumbered.

bosmern_ESO

ZoS has had meeting with PvP guilds in the past (idk if they still do it) and most of the suggestions they said/made ZoS mainly ignored, other than some bugs and stuff.

I'm sure they look at suggestions but they cant just randomly implement something in the game because a few people share opinions with a suggestion.

Earthewen

I got further clarification about the removal of the AOE caps. They stated on ESO Live that they were working on it, so go check it out kids.

RinaldoGandolphi

I also didn't mean any disrespect towards @Earthewen either. I know this person has just as much passion for the game as all of us do. I will never engage I'd disrespectful behavior towards ya. I was stating my opinion in that post, and I hope I didn't come off as talking down towards you because that was not my intent, and if I did, I apologize.

If they are indeed removing AOE caps completely, that would be good for the game..it would change a lot of things...it would def be interesting

donJay

Zos, im tired of pvping and having you gank me. Fix your bugs or replace the devs. Simple. Many would kill to do the things you simply can't. The standard of quality for the dev team is low and embarassing. Running 5 minutes to have my pot not work, my cc break delayed, or stunned while in mist form is sad. I actually am ashamed to tell my other friends I play this game when I think about the dev team and how they let this *** go on. Fixing Bugs > new dlc' s

RinaldoGandolphi

donJay wrote: »

Zos, im tired of pvping and having you gank me. Fix your bugs or replace the devs. Simple. Many would kill to do the things you simply can't. The standard of quality for the dev team is low and embarassing. Running 5 minutes to have my pot not work, my cc break delayed, or stunned while in mist form is sad. I actually am ashamed to tell my other friends I play this game when I think about the dev team and how they let this *** go on. Fixing Bugs > new dlc' s

Yeah that's pretty crummy @donJay

Have you had the immovable pot not work bug yet? Drink an immovable pot then your stunned a sec later, or breaking cc only to be cc again?

It's a shame these bugs are not patched and fixed in incremental patches. Let's hope they fix some of this stuff

Cêltic421

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

What is it you want ZoS to know?

StackonClown

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

What is it you want ZoS to know?

We want ZOS to know:

> we r sik of the bots
> we r sik of the exploits
> we r sik of the lag and performance issues
> we r sik of multiyear bugs
> we r sik of dumb nerfs - give stuff one year and take away next year and screw up all builds + gear
> list goes on and on
> fix it!

FENGRUSH

Earthewen wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Okay, first of all, don't ever presume that I know nothing about the game. That's about as arrogant a comment as you could possibly make, and I thought better of you than that. Secondly, I am asking a question that you have not yet answered. Do you lead a group? Are you a small scale player or do you solo? You specifically, I mean. I'm still asking that question and you didn't answer it. You've giving away a lot of knowledge from your perspective only. You are arguing that this current system has been great, but again, that is your opinion. You state it as a fact, but it is nothing more than opinion.

My opinion differs. I'm still waiting for the evidence. I see that AOE caps are being removed. Which ones? Why are the being removed? Are the caps being removed for the barrier and rapids as well? Or is it only that the offensive skill caps that are being removed so people can jump into a 40 man raid and kill everyone on the map in one blow? If that is the case, then explain to me how this is balanced because I'd really like to know.

I'm really asking some hard questions here, but I've not seen any facts or evidence to support your statements. I see a lot of opinion. Opinion is fine, but let's put it in its proper place. I've played PVP for a very long time as well, and not just in this game. However, someone needs to ask these questions and I'd like to see some real evidence.

@Joy_Division was spot on. Too often, the small man group players have demeaned the large scale players as if they lack any kind of skill, have too much influence, etc. When are we going to wake up and realize that we actually have a great deal in common? No one lacks skill because they prefer pve to pvp or vice versa. No one lacks skill because they prefer large to small groups and vice versa. IT'S SIMPLY A DIFFERENT PLAY STYLE.

So, I ask once again, who in this discussion right now is a large group playstyle and has been asked, listened to, or otherwise? Please let me know because I'm really wanting to know.

Im sorry if I came off offensive. I really didnt mean to be at all. I respect you care and are asking a lot of these questions. Ive been at the forefront of a lot of these changes above. Ive played in all of the environments youre asking about.

To answer your question as a whole, there is no active discussion on Cyrodiil issues with any large groups or anyone at all. Its not something that is talked about. Balance concerns like a skill or how many people are hit by a skill are. Cyrodiils issues go beyond that and encompass a wide range of problems at this point.

Also - AOE caps are not being removed. That is a campaign Ive driven long and hard for, as most people who know me would know that. They were changed (from 50% reduc after first 6% to 25%). It was a big and relevant change. At this point, having them in probably only creates more calculations against performance than it does relevance in turning a fight. It is still relevant when a group of outnumbered players are trying to punch through a lot of healing. But much less than it was before. Nobody should get a free major protection because they happen to be standing next to at least 6 people. Especially when its stacking with... major protection

No one should have an advantage either just because they are NOT standing next to six people. If you want that kind of fighting, that's fine. That's what I'm hearing the arenas are for. I do care about this game. I've spent a lot of money and time in it. I'm glad AOE caps are no being removed if that is the case. No one person should be able to take out 40 players even though I wish my small group could do just that. Still, it doesn't make sense! It also doesn't make sense, no matter how much I wish it did, for a few players to be able to punch through that healing when they have a lot of healers. It also doesn't make sense. That is the kind of thing that exactly DOES favor the small groups in many ways. The advantage of being in a group is the strength of the pack. Why should we nerf someone because he's standing next to six people? It's those kinds of comments that make me think that the larger group style of play is not being represented. Since you never answered my question about whether or not you lead a larger group or a small group, I can only guess.

I do thank you for apologizing. Sometimes, it is difficult to discern someone's tone in text alone.

Players shouldnt punch through 'healing' because 'they have a lot of healers'. Having a lot of healers means its easy to heal everyone. Generally, everyone will stay alive. If they all stand in one place and the other group coordinates offensive damage - they shouldnt die because.. they had a lot of healers? LOL. All theyd have to do is not stand on top of each other.

However, AOE caps was giving damage reduction, so it had an incentive to stand on top of each other.

lolworthy quotes:

"Why should we nerf someone because he's standing next to six people?"

They are not nerfed standing next to each other. Unless you refer to changing AOE caps as a nerf to a poor mechanic.


"The advantage of being in a group is the strength of the pack."

What does this even mean? The strength of the pack ??? The strength of the pack is the numerical advantage, which is a rightful advantage to have. The strength of the pack doesnt include having damage reduction because you outnumbered your enemy. All this does is encourage people to win through outnumbering people. If you dont see the folly in this logic, youre a lost cause for anyone to converse with.

This is how zergs end up being what they are. This is how Cyrodiil becomes what it is. This is why numbers begin to trump absolutely everything else. Not because they brought more numbers, but the game put in mechanics to make numbers even stronger against people who have fewer. This isnt even a linear advantage, it becomes exponential. I think your group is spoken and accounted for. Its how we ended up with a fraction of the amount of people left PvPing in Cyrodiil today.

FENGRUSH

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I also didn't mean any disrespect towards @Earthewen either. I know this person has just as much passion for the game as all of us do. I will never engage I'd disrespectful behavior towards ya. I was stating my opinion in that post, and I hope I didn't come off as talking down towards you because that was not my intent, and if I did, I apologize.

If they are indeed removing AOE caps completely, that would be good for the game..it would change a lot of things...it would def be interesting

Given the guy linked a thread from over a year ago which was spearheaded by me (lol) I dont think he really knows whats going on. Im not trying to be mean, and its fine to ask questions and all, but stupid to make posts like the one I just had to respond to.

Im not sure how I would have missed the news on AOE caps being removed completely. If its something theyre 'working on' - thats nice, theyre working on a lot of things.

AOE caps were adjusted in the current patch, thats about it for now. And its honestly not even the biggest deal now. The bigger deal is abusive mechanics like root spam, gap closer root spam, and poisons absolutely massacring smaller players. Beyond stupid mechanics issues like that, you have bugs. But ultimately, the environment of Cyrodiil is what needs the most attention. Its not a great place to just go. You have to be well prepared or youll get walked over by groups that know how to push all the pressure points on the above noted issues with whatever ultmeta is working.