When Will ZOS Start Listening to the Rest of Us?

Earthewen

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ackwalan

Unsub and don't buy any crowns. Speaks volumes.

Elsonso

Ackwalan wrote: »

Unsub and don't buy any crowns. Speaks volumes.

What is your definition of "volumes"?

CyrusArya

I have made in my entire forums career 3 discussion posts regarding changes I would like to see happen or not happen. Literally all 3 of them were administered, sooner rather than later. Can't say I share your frustrations.

As a matter of fact, I'd say I prefer that ZOS ignore the vast majority of input that the community makes. In my time on these boards I have noticed that for every 1 post that is reasonable, well supported, and has merits there's at least 20 posts by people with a half baked understanding of mechanics and extremely narrow/biased perspectives screaming for changes to compensate for their inability to perform.

I do not want to play the game that is developed by these arm chair devs and balance 'gurus'. I have been very pleased with the decisions and direction ZOS has been making in recent times, and I express this appreciation with my wallet as well. I want to see them stick to their guns rather than cave to whining baddies with awful suggestions.

Ackwalan

lordrichter wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Unsub and don't buy any crowns. Speaks volumes.

What is your definition of "volumes"?

Getting devs attention on problems doesn't do much. When marketing execs take notice, things change.

Elsonso

Ackwalan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Unsub and don't buy any crowns. Speaks volumes.

What is your definition of "volumes"?

Getting devs attention on problems doesn't do much. When marketing execs take notice, things change.

Well, depending on what you want done, I would argue that it is pretty much the opposite. If you cannot convince the devs to care, you have almost no chance of getting marketing to care. Sure, marketing might be able to make things change, but that does not mean they heard you. You might be unsubscribing because we are not getting fixes and marketing might decide to change things by adding a new type of Crown Crate.

Now, if what you want is a new type of Crown Crate, then I stand corrected.

Earthewen

The reason I'm saying and asking this is because the current business model that these MMO companies are using are terrible. I have been watching LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) slowly dwindle to almost nothing. They literally were killing that game and it hadn't even reached Mordor yet. My question is this: If LOTRO all but dies with the same business model that ZOS is using, and they had the luxury of JRR Tolkien and Middle-Earth, the movies, and books, etc., plus the huge, global fan base for everything Hobbit and Elf and Numenor, why would ZOS, not having those luxuries, think they can survive this business model of money grabbing, kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and run to the next game mentality?

Turelus

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

Earthewen

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

That is what's happening already, though. There are brilliant people playing this game that don't own a Twitch channel. When are those people going to be heard? I'm not saying I'm on of them, but I know some who are. I know I have some things I would like to see. Sometimes, I learn from other people's opinions, too. Like the removal of champion points test thing. I was so against it, but heard some good ideas here on the forums. it made me change my mind about the test. However, I feel as those ZOS is listening already to the forum warriors who are more trolls than anything else, who feel their way of play is the ONLY way to play and ZOS should change everything to just fit that way. I feel as though they care more about those marketing ploys than they do about actually FIXING those things that NEED TO BE FIXED SINCE LAUNCH. They are determined to release Morrowind KNOWING that there are huge issues with it already. They are determined that EVERYONE INCLUDING SUBSCRIBERS buy the game by putting armor sets that can ONLY BE PICKED UP IN Morrowind. Are you kidding me?!! All of this after the huge intake of cash with the housing and people purchasing these homes through the crown store. All of this after the huge intake of cash through the winning the lawsuit against Facebook. Where does the greed stop and the caring about the average joe player begin?

So I ask again, if LOTRO is going under with this business model, why does ZOS think their game will survive with the random disconnects, bugged trial runs, lag out in PVE AND PVP, server closures, and cheats and hacks available to anyone who is able to use them?

Elsonso

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

That is what's happening already, though. There are brilliant people playing this game that don't own a Twitch channel. When are those people going to be heard? I'm not saying I'm on of them, but I know some who are. I know I have some things I would like to see. Sometimes, I learn from other people's opinions, too. Like the removal of champion points test thing. I was so against it, but heard some good ideas here on the forums. it made me change my mind about the test. However, I feel as those ZOS is listening already to the forum warriors who are more trolls than anything else, who feel their way of play is the ONLY way to play and ZOS should change everything to just fit that way. I feel as though they care more about those marketing ploys than they do about actually FIXING those things that NEED TO BE FIXED SINCE LAUNCH. They are determined to release Morrowind KNOWING that there are huge issues with it already. They are determined that EVERYONE INCLUDING SUBSCRIBERS buy the game by putting armor sets that can ONLY BE PICKED UP IN Morrowind. Are you kidding me?!! All of this after the huge intake of cash with the housing and people purchasing these homes through the crown store. All of this after the huge intake of cash through the winning the lawsuit against Facebook. Where does the greed stop and the caring about the average joe player begin?

So I ask again, if LOTRO is going under with this business model, why does ZOS think their game will survive with the random disconnects, bugged trial runs, lag out in PVE AND PVP, server closures, and cheats and hacks available to anyone who is able to use them?

I think you missed the most important part of what was said.


"You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more."

A lot of brilliant people have a lot of brilliant ideas. The most brilliant of them realize their ideas aren't that brilliant.

Turelus

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

That is what's happening already, though. There are brilliant people playing this game that don't own a Twitch channel. When are those people going to be heard?

Some of them are, they are also the ones who give good valid feedback, some even got invited to ZOS but didn't disclose their names. Not everyone who went to ZOS the other month was a big name streamer.

They also don't always pander to the crowd on the forums, they make a lot of choices people don't like because they want to take the game in their chosen direction, that's why there are so many rage threads.

There are ways to give good feedback and ways to contract the Devs on a more one to one basis if you want to (whilst respecting their privacy and keeping it professional) however a lot of the people who have great ideas seem more offended someone else was invited for a private tour or had a Dev on TS than upset their ideas were not used.

Earthewen

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

That is what's happening already, though. There are brilliant people playing this game that don't own a Twitch channel. When are those people going to be heard?

Some of them are, they are also the ones who give good valid feedback, some even got invited to ZOS but didn't disclose their names. Not everyone who went to ZOS the other month was a big name streamer.

They also don't always pander to the crowd on the forums, they make a lot of choices people don't like because they want to take the game in their chosen direction, that's why there are so many rage threads.

There are ways to give good feedback and ways to contract the Devs on a more one to one basis if you want to (whilst respecting their privacy and keeping it professional) however a lot of the people who have great ideas seem more offended someone else was invited for a private tour or had a Dev on TS than upset their ideas were not used.

A valid point, but to be honest, I still maintain that there seems to be a lot of money grabbing lately in the game. Morrowind is a DLC and an expansion. It's crazy to charge the subscribers for that. We pay enough to support this game on a monthly basis with nothing being different between us and the nonsubscriber. Okay, I take that back. We get a crafting bag, WHAHOO.

I'm no butt hurt nor am I wanting to rage. I am very disappointed that ZOS is following the same business model that I was equally disappointed that LOTRO used. I watched a fun game go down the tubes when the money grabbing began. I watched the players leave as it changed in the same way that ESO is changing. The entire FEEL and atmosphere is changing. LOTRO began centered around the game, the lore, the Tolkien. ESO began centered similarly. Then the money grabbing started, and things changed. The entire feel of the game changed and people left. This is a failed business model and no one is talking about it. At least not that I have seen.

RinaldoGandolphi

I will say, I have gotten quite a few things changed. The Devs here do listen as much flak as they do take.

the change to Bombard for example, was mostly spearheaded by yours truly(the Bombard root spam meta was disgusting, hopefully Encase gets the same treatment shortly)

Right now though, The classes are not close to balanced BUT this is because of Itemization issues, not class balance issues

The Best example of this is you can simply wear 5 Heavy, 2 Jewelry and Sword and Board on any kind of Templar and be a champion.(Reactive, Lich, and Monster set) In the majority of Cyrodiil PVP encounters(face it fights are rarely 1v1 even if your purposely looking for them,( you got better chances of finding 2v3, 2v2, or 3v4) if your doing 1-2 man pvp your simply can not deal with those guys, you can't deal with them. If you get two of covering each other(with guard) in say a 2v4 forget about it, theres no chance.

If you just took class balance by itself, i'd say they are about as close as they will ever get while the game is still fun.

Even Champion Points on its own would be ok.

Its ITEMIZATION that is the issue, and One Tamriel just completely borked it...you shouldn't be able to get every armor and every set in all items types and jewels. it just allows for some of these truly ridiclious setups.

Saying what ZOS should and shouldn't listen to is soley subjective, just as if someone thinks all the decisions ZOS has done is good or bad...again subjective.

I tend to focus more on broken things like being rooted over and over again without cooldown. It was broken with Bombard(i got that one fixed), and its currently broken with Encase(it needs to be fixed).....there are very few left playing that were around when there was no CC immunity...you could be stunned and knock backed over and over again...it was fun for no one.

The game is really close. If they could get some root immunity in, and tack down some of the itemization issues they brought to the game with One Tamriel(toning down some of the hardcore sustain and damage sets) and leaving CP largely intact they would be about as close as they will get and it would something folks could live with. Nothing will ever be perfect, but nothing ever is.

The streamers tend to bring some good changes to the game too. Im glad they are listening to someone. I have no doubt guys like @FENGRUSH and @Sypher gave them some very good feedback. I share most of those guys views, so i was glad they atleast got to go and voice their opinions.

Publius_Scipio

Taking into account our opinions and then deciding whether or not to act on them are two entirely different things. I do believe the devs read and discuss (if it's not completely ridiculous) much of what we as players say. And there have been things that players wanted and the devs did implement. And other things that the devs decided they did not want to implement.

I forget whether it was mentioned in the ESO Live episode with Fengrush and Sypher or if i read it somewhere from one of the players that was invited to ZOS HQ last month; But a player did mention that it was enlightening to have the devs right there in person because as players presented ideas the devs were there to explain why it could or couldn't be implemented in the game. And dialogue like that is not something that is a common thing here on the forums.

Also where is the line drawn where a game retains the overall developer vision or where the games essentially becomes totally shaped by the players and the devs just implement everything players want?

Winnamine

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Sometime between the next patch and never, probably.

Zinaroth

lordrichter wrote: »

A lot of brilliant people have a lot of brilliant ideas. The most brilliant of them realize their ideas aren't that brilliant.

Probably the most relevant comment we will ever get on these kind of posts. If ZOS isn't paying attention to what you have to say it's probably not that brilliant and good for the game.

95 % of the ideas I see on these forum would either break balance, shift the game into a different direction, be downright impossible or simply ruin the game for a majority. People get a sudden idea, think it over for an afternoon, write it down on forums and think they are more original than an entire team of professional developers. Don't get me wrong; sometimes the players knows better or get better ideas - but only in maybe 5 % of the cases.

Soul_Demon

Zinaroth wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

A lot of brilliant people have a lot of brilliant ideas. The most brilliant of them realize their ideas aren't that brilliant.

Probably the most relevant comment we will ever get on these kind of posts. If ZOS isn't paying attention to what you have to say it's probably not that brilliant and good for the game.

95 % of the ideas I see on these forum would either break balance, shift the game into a different direction, be downright impossible or simply ruin the game for a majority. People get a sudden idea, think it over for an afternoon, write it down on forums and think they are more original than an entire team of professional developers. Don't get me wrong; sometimes the players knows better or get better ideas - but only in maybe 5 % of the cases.

I think the real question is, exactly how do the developers get that input for the 5%? Forums, in game, social media platforms?

Turelus

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Ask yourself this, do you WANT them to listen to everyone/the rest of us.

You're aware that most of what people want would probably kill this game or break balance even more.

That is what's happening already, though. There are brilliant people playing this game that don't own a Twitch channel. When are those people going to be heard?

Some of them are, they are also the ones who give good valid feedback, some even got invited to ZOS but didn't disclose their names. Not everyone who went to ZOS the other month was a big name streamer.

They also don't always pander to the crowd on the forums, they make a lot of choices people don't like because they want to take the game in their chosen direction, that's why there are so many rage threads.

There are ways to give good feedback and ways to contract the Devs on a more one to one basis if you want to (whilst respecting their privacy and keeping it professional) however a lot of the people who have great ideas seem more offended someone else was invited for a private tour or had a Dev on TS than upset their ideas were not used.

A valid point, but to be honest, I still maintain that there seems to be a lot of money grabbing lately in the game. Morrowind is a DLC and an expansion. It's crazy to charge the subscribers for that. We pay enough to support this game on a monthly basis with nothing being different between us and the nonsubscriber. Okay, I take that back. We get a crafting bag, WHAHOO.

I'm no butt hurt nor am I wanting to rage. I am very disappointed that ZOS is following the same business model that I was equally disappointed that LOTRO used. I watched a fun game go down the tubes when the money grabbing began. I watched the players leave as it changed in the same way that ESO is changing. The entire FEEL and atmosphere is changing. LOTRO began centered around the game, the lore, the Tolkien. ESO began centered similarly. Then the money grabbing started, and things changed. The entire feel of the game changed and people left. This is a failed business model and no one is talking about it. At least not that I have seen.

Don't blame ZOS for money grabbing, blame Zenimax Media who sipped the Skyrim/Fallout 4 cash flow cool aid.

That's my cynical conspiracy theory any way, and I will stick to it darn you!

Also this isn't a failed business model, if it was, every game like LOTRO would be dead, but they're still kicking. It's a scummy and not consumer friendly business model, but it's a valid one for the business making the money.

PandaIsAPotato

Never, just like they always have been doing. The developers have a very small presence on the forums and whoever passes on information has been doing a mediocre job of it for the last two years, they listen to whoever whines the most, not who's stating what's wrong and reporting bugs and such. It took almost a year and a half for the Magicka DKs of the community to get themselves buffs after they were hammered into nothing, and the "buffs" were arguably a joke, sure it's a start but that's it.

The main problem with ESO is how they do patches, you can't just overhaul the game every six months when you're feeling froggy with balance and content. You need to adopt the policy of patching bug fixes and minor balance tweaks every week, or every other week. Otherwise you just end up breaking the game after a major patch for 2-3 months.

With this Morrowind coming I can see the game being milked out a few more years, especially if they keep this policy of calling new content "expansions" instead of DLC so the subscribers have to pay. That right there should be a blatant violation of everything you agreed to as a subscriber and I'm surprised people haven't actually threatened to class action them, considering there are grounds for it to be false advertising among other things.

kevlarto_ESO

Earthewen wrote: »

The reason I'm saying and asking this is because the current business model that these MMO companies are using are terrible. I have been watching LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) slowly dwindle to almost nothing. They literally were killing that game and it hadn't even reached Mordor yet. My question is this: If LOTRO all but dies with the same business model that ZOS is using, and they had the luxury of JRR Tolkien and Middle-Earth, the movies, and books, etc., plus the huge, global fan base for everything Hobbit and Elf and Numenor, why would ZOS, not having those luxuries, think they can survive this business model of money grabbing, kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and run to the next game mentality?

I Alpha tested LOTRO and then beta and then played it until it went free to play, in the start and up until it sold Turbine was awesome I played a lot on the test server, got to know the dev's got to meet some of them at pax east, great group a lot of hands on, when they sold to Warner Bothers things started to go south, the decline WB wants turbine to make app games now and they are in the process if not already of moving the game to another publisher, I wonder if they will ever make it to Mordor, and like you say they are pretty much killing the brand at this point, with a shifting business model, and new priorities shame really that was a fun game for a few years.

Zinaroth

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

A lot of brilliant people have a lot of brilliant ideas. The most brilliant of them realize their ideas aren't that brilliant.

Probably the most relevant comment we will ever get on these kind of posts. If ZOS isn't paying attention to what you have to say it's probably not that brilliant and good for the game.

95 % of the ideas I see on these forum would either break balance, shift the game into a different direction, be downright impossible or simply ruin the game for a majority. People get a sudden idea, think it over for an afternoon, write it down on forums and think they are more original than an entire team of professional developers. Don't get me wrong; sometimes the players knows better or get better ideas - but only in maybe 5 % of the cases.

I think the real question is, exactly how do the developers get that input for the 5%? Forums, in game, social media platforms?

I think these forums and the ESO Reddit is your best bet. I know they reference both places a lot on ESO Live and that the people they contacted directly for input or additional data has been approached on these forums.

Takllin

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

A lot of brilliant people have a lot of brilliant ideas. The most brilliant of them realize their ideas aren't that brilliant.

Probably the most relevant comment we will ever get on these kind of posts. If ZOS isn't paying attention to what you have to say it's probably not that brilliant and good for the game.

95 % of the ideas I see on these forum would either break balance, shift the game into a different direction, be downright impossible or simply ruin the game for a majority. People get a sudden idea, think it over for an afternoon, write it down on forums and think they are more original than an entire team of professional developers. Don't get me wrong; sometimes the players knows better or get better ideas - but only in maybe 5 % of the cases.

I think the real question is, exactly how do the developers get that input for the 5%? Forums, in game, social media platforms?

I've been in ZOS guild meetings for over a year. Mostly with one guild and then a few others. When you have that kind of direct contact with the Devs over a long period of time you start to realize a few things:

1. They take a lot of feedback from the forums/reddit
2. They take a lot of your own feedback/feedback from other guilds/players in the game directly
3. They have an overall design direction they will go in regardless of feedback (though they may take the feedback into consideration and change a thing here or there in regard to it)

Thinking that your voice on the forums isn't being heard just isn't true. However, if we're to take the feedback from everyone on the forums/game/wherever we might as well start a new game from scratch.

Katahdin

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

What exactly do you want that you feel the devs aren't listening to?

Morrowind will never be free for ESO+. Call it DLC or not, that ship sailed already. Literally every mandatory sub game makes you pay for expacs, it's not included in the sub.

Tons of people love the crown crates (I personally dislike them). Just look at how many storm and wild hunt mounts are around to see that.

Lots of people have preordered Morrowind. Lots of people bought houses and crown crates and costumes and mounts and pets. They are making tons of money so apparently lots of people dont mind the current business model. Why the hell would they change that?

IxSTALKERxI

The devs are listening. They read every hot topic on the forums. Heck, some might be wasting their time skimming through this thread as we speak haha. If something doesn't get changed it's because they either don't agree with the idea or are unable to implement them. They also could have your idea on a to-do-list (some ideas have a low priority compared to other things such as polishing morrowind or fixing the streak bug) or a 'plan b' for the future, you never know.

Soris

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Your*

Turelus

Something people also need to realise.

When ZOS get feedback from players they're not sitting down and saying "what do you want us to do in the game?" they're going to be saying "hey, we're doing this and we need your critique on it".

This is generally how round tables and dev/customer theory crafting works, ZOS will do as ZOS wants because it's their game, they will just ask players they trust to understand and give fair balanced feedback what they think.

We all get to give our thoughts come PTS, but screaming "WAHHH CHANGE BAD ZOS YOU NO LISTEN FFS!!!" just because we don't like a change doesn't mean they're not listening, they're just doing as they want (as all developers do) and taking critique which makes sense on board.

Rickter

I was once told by a player in my guild who is now a developer at ZOS that ZOS reads every single post on the forums. Every one. and they said that the best way to be heard was to post on the forums.

Idk if that was 100% true or whatever but they landed a job with zos so they knew something i didnt.

as to the OP, i think the big name streamers do in fact know a lot about ESO, whether that be game mechanics, system behavior, attunement to the overall direction the game is going however, i am wary of zos listening to them at all because at the end of the day they are being paid for streaming these games and I think alot of their perspective is geared towards garnering subscribers and views and donations. Thats a conflict of interest and i just cant trust the opinions of someone with that conflict of interest shaping the future of this game.

Turelus

Rickter, not all were streamers though and from what ZOS and those who have spoken about it said they were very critical and open about issues.

FENGRUSH

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

caeliusstarbreaker

No eta

AhPook_Is_Here

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Not now, not later, not ever.