When Will ZOS Start Listening to the Rest of Us?

Esgameplaya1

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

I can see why; who in there right mind would want to watch the same BS after three years on twitch.

Soul_Demon

Rickter wrote: »

I was once told by a player in my guild who is now a developer at ZOS that ZOS reads every single post on the forums. Every one. and they said that the best way to be heard was to post on the forums.

Idk if that was 100% true or whatever but they landed a job with zos so they knew something i didnt.

as to the OP, i think the big name streamers do in fact know a lot about ESO, whether that be game mechanics, system behavior, attunement to the overall direction the game is going however, i am wary of zos listening to them at all because at the end of the day they are being paid for streaming these games and I think alot of their perspective is geared towards garnering subscribers and views and donations. Thats a conflict of interest and i just cant trust the opinions of someone with that conflict of interest shaping the future of this game.

Could be that the game just feels like it has gone in the direction of the streaming community- Early on many of them were the vocal ones regarding reduction of group size to accommodate the server lag issues if memory serves me. Most of the information I remember being spoken about revolved around something like if the game cant handle what they sold it as, you as the player should change and not worry about the game itself.

I always thought that was just to get ZOS to allow the channels to be advertised for free on the forums, kind of a way to ingratiate with the powers that be and make a few bucks. Might be just that where we are today feels more like it has gone the direction of the solo 1vx play style and it isn't related to that at all but a combination of those things and limitations in the code. Personally I have always wondered if there is a guy in advertising up at ZOS arguing "do you know how much streamers save us in advertising? Give them what they want and shhh"

Turelus

As I have this on the clipboard from posting it in another thread I will here as well (honestly this should be required reading for anyone wanting to give games feedback).

This is a forums post by a CCP Developer a few years back about how to best give feedback on the forums, what he does and doesn't like etc.

1. Here's the general guide, in approximate order of importance from my personal perspective

• Be calm and reasonable. Angry posts are harder to process, both because the actually worthwhile bits tend to be broken up by the angry bits, and just because it takes additional effort to filter out the negative vibes while you're trying to extract the useful information.
• "Show your working". The single most useful thing you can do in a post is to explain, in as much detail as possible, why. Simply stating things you believe to be true is somewhat unhelpful, as it's incumbent upon us as developers to be able to explain why we are making changes, and also to filter out things that players are saying because they are true from things that players are saying that they mistakenly believe to be true from things that players are saying that they know are false but hope will sway development decisions anyway. For both of these reasons, an explanation of why you are saying what you are saying is the biggest thing you can do (in combination with the previous point) to get a developer to make changes based on what you're saying. A lot of people seem to be under the misapprehension that simply stating their opinion should be enough for developers to change their mind; this isn't viable for a number of reasons, but the most obvious one is that any given thread will generally have multiple players stating mutually contradictory opinions. We have to be able to pick between them somehow, right?
• Be specific. I love players who actually present numbers rather than just saying "that is too big", because it makes it very clear what they're actually hoping to see, and gives context for what they find reasonable.
• Consider the whole picture. It's very easy to express an opinion about things that affect you directly. It's much rarer for people to consider how the changes they're suggesting affect other players, particularly those of different playstyles or levels of experience. As developers, we have to consider everyone, and that often involves tradeoffs. Your common-or-garden post says "this is what *I* want", and we have to then synthesize all those different points and figure out how to balance competing interests. Showing at least an awareness of this, and better still actually accounting for it in your working, is a good way to make a post more useful to a developer.
• Have a good, short opening paragraph. If your post starts off badly, I will jump through it quickly looking for anything that sticks out, because I have lots of posts to read and other work to do. If you catch my attention with your opening, I will read it carefully. Note here that I'm not saying it has to make an effort to be catching or provocative, just that a clear, well-written paragraph which meets all the other points in this list suggests that it's a post that's probably worth reading slowly.
• Be novel. Posts bringing up things that haven't previously been mentioned in the thread are generally more useful than posts repeating the same thing that's been mentioned twenty times. I want to properly clarify this: I'm *not* saying not to repeat points, or even that doing so isn't useful. Seeing the same thing brought up multiple times is a good indicator that there is a broad concern about a particular thing. It's not as powerful as a single post laying out succinctly and convincingly why a particular thing is problematic, but it's still useful information!
• Be nice to read. If you can be gently witty, or format and punctuate your post so it's easy to read, that will always score bonus points.

2. Nothing in this thread has been outright ignored. With fifty pages I'm happy to hold up my hand and say that some posts I skim-read because, as above, I have other work to do too, but I have read every post for some definition of "read". I have not replied to every post raising an important point, for a variety of reasons:

• In many cases a reply doesn't really add anything to the discussion
• In some cases that you are considering important posts, I probably simply didn't find the points they were making particularly compelling. YMMV, obviously
• I can't reply to everything, both because it would take forever and because it would destroy the rhythm of the thread.
• What a developer does and doesn't reply to tends to, over time, influence the character of the forum. I am less likely to respond to a post which makes good points in a bad way, because while good points are good, bad presentation is bad. Conversely, people making really good posts I will go out of my way to reply to, because I would like to see more posts like that.

3. This is kind of repeating the first question, at least in the case where I take it seriously rather than snarkily. I'm going to use this opportunity then to say why I replied to Shoogie's post:

• He starts off by giving a suggested rank for Titans. I am immediately reading this post carefully. There have been a lot of posts saying "caps take too long to research". Here is somebody actually proposing a solution. Excellent. (Yes, I note that he said the same thing earlier, I guess I didn't catch it the first time round? Sloppy reading on my part, sorry.)
• Good paragraph length, well written, clear, not angry. Good.
• Shows his working for what factors he's taking into account, and covers some edge cases (Hyasyoda lab). Lovely.
• Considers that his suggested number might be too low. I love posts which consider the possibility that they might be wrong, it shows great awareness of how balance actually works and suggests that the author is carefully considering their suggestion.
• Frames things in terms of typical player reactions, this is both a sign that the author is thinking about things from a good perspective, and also allows us to figure out where they're coming from and what other assumptions are being made.
• Thinks about new players in a way that's not transparently just about advancing their own interests. Rare as hens' teeth.
• Writes out a *** table, I love this, saves me doing math
• Thinking about interesting decisions, which suggests a decent understanding of game design principles.
• Considers the impact of other changes happening at the same time, which has been surprisingly uncommon in in the discussion of industry changes as a whole. (Also doubles down on this in the post about job costs a few posts further down.)
• Wraps up with some other suggestions for changes, and also mentions things he thinks seem reasonable as-is.

You'll note in my response that I don't agree with everything suggested, specifically with regard to T1 ammo. But the post as a whole is an excellent post that hits a whole lot of "good post" checkboxes at once, and as a result is really damn useful to me as a developer. In the absence of anyone else's input, and given that such things are within certain bounds largely arbitrary anyway (ie, there's no obvious compelling reason to home in on any specific number from a balance perspective), I may just end up kicking Titan rank to 600 simply because Shoogie suggested it and his reasoning looks sane.

FENGRUSH

Esgameplaya1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

I can see why; who in there right mind would want to watch the same BS after three years on twitch.

Its a fair consideration - but not the issue at all. In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I was once told by a player in my guild who is now a developer at ZOS that ZOS reads every single post on the forums. Every one. and they said that the best way to be heard was to post on the forums.

Idk if that was 100% true or whatever but they landed a job with zos so they knew something i didnt.

as to the OP, i think the big name streamers do in fact know a lot about ESO, whether that be game mechanics, system behavior, attunement to the overall direction the game is going however, i am wary of zos listening to them at all because at the end of the day they are being paid for streaming these games and I think alot of their perspective is geared towards garnering subscribers and views and donations. Thats a conflict of interest and i just cant trust the opinions of someone with that conflict of interest shaping the future of this game.

Might be just that where we are today feels more like it has gone the direction of the solo 1vx play style

Like.. what game are some people playing? Did streamers ask for poisons that can be applied by multiple people so when were outnumbered we get absolutely crushed on resources while giving a static ult gen regardless of the amount of people were fighting to ensure simply being outnumbered will result in eventual death? This game is in a terrible place for 1vX experience. The success you have is due to your opponent either not coming to the fight with the right build or enough CP. These didnt use to be the heavily deciding factors.

Wicked_Wolf

Lotro is not dead. If anything there has been a recent re surge with a new Mordor expansion coming. Also their business model is completely different so I'm not sure why you keep comparing them to ESO.

As far as communication; I am not a streamer. No one knows who I am and I've communicated with devs multiple times. Some ideas they liked, others they didn't so much and some were just plain "NOPE" lol.

I don't agree that they ignore us. They can't address every single thing brought up here. For one; it's just too much and two; in the end it's their game to develop, not ours. Plus there's a ton of things they put in games that streamers totally disagreed with so I don't know why you think they are the end all be all.

Also; given the way some people here express their "criticism", with insults and utter disrespect, I'd say ignoring it is being kind. I'd respond with a big GFY to those types of comments.

vamp_emily

I honestly hope they don't listen to most players in this game. Just go back and read all the threads and you will see why I feel like this. This is my first game, and one thing I've learned is almost everyone cries about everything. And in most cases it is just a L2P issue.

It amazes me every time the game has an update people start acting like:



I think the developers are doing a great job. Just give them your feed back and let them do their jobs.

out51d3r

I feel like my issues have been listened to. They haven't necessarily addressed the issues in the way I personally would, but they've addressed them.

DHale

I think ZOS does listen greatly to the players... the bad ones. Honestly! You are just mad they don't listen to you. If it was up to me CP would be what you have earned and battle spirit and aoe caps would be didtant memories. It would be survival of the fittest. Also there would be no way to group up in groups more than 8.

out51d3r

FENGRUSH wrote: »

In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

It does feel like alot of outplay-enabling mechanics have been nerfed. It also feels like mechanics(eg hugely damaging random procs) have been added specifically to narrow the gap between low skill players and high skill players.

Pallio

Despite all the nonsense on this forum, maybe it you are a YouTube personality they will consider your comments/complaints.

The more people who unsub and stop buying crowns, will absolutely get them to fix their broken game before it is too late to save.

Publius_Scipio

Lol at all the people saying unsub and stop buying crowns. The forums are such a microcosm and many forget that. The ESO population has grown. Probably saw a good size boost when One Tamriel came out, and I expect Morrowind to sell well and for the population to grow yet again.

There was a crusade against crown crates on the forums.... Last I knew crown crates are still around, still being updated, and I see people flying all over all the zones with crown crate mounts and what not. Not to mention all the elk mounts I see (weren't they something like $40 USD when first released?)

You have players returning to ESO. Come to think of it, for all the "hate" ESO receives you have a lot of the (perma?) banned chumps purchasing the game again, creating new account, and coming back. Of course Scipio still makes fun of them lolscipiolol.

NBrookus

out51d3r wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

It does feel like alot of outplay-enabling mechanics have been nerfed. It also feels like mechanics(eg hugely damaging random procs) have been added specifically to narrow the gap between low skill players and high skill players.

Well they specifically said that that's exactly what they wanted to do -- narrow the gap. And I actually agree with that goal, for better fights overall. But the methods they have used -- poisons, procs sets, destro ult -- have buffed zergs, not individuals. Those lower skilled players aren't branching out testing their limits, they are blobbing up even more. It's hard to argue with the effectiveness of that strategy, but it's brain dead play.

Earthewen

Here's the thing though. Who are they accommodating? Are they ONLY listening to people who have one play style? Let's face it. There is no right or wrong play style especially for PVP. There is a group play and a smaller, ganker style. I feel as though the group play style is woefully under represented in the grand scheme of things. I'm certainly not the one to ask about what to do for an MMO. I just play the game as it stands now. I have some ideas, but usually it has to do with getting a guild banner on my house. LOL

However, there are some really good raid leads out there that could give some great ideas on ways to improve group play especially in PVP. Why aren't those guys being heard? I feel as though the ganker types are so loud, they just want to drown out anyone whose play style is different from theirs. Who, in this forum right now, is a large group raid lead and knows for a fact that they are being heard and their suggestions put into action?

This game was marketed as a guild versus guild PVP in the beginning. However, it has changed due to the crying of the ganker who couldn't kill the massive groups they encountered on the field. That's like a person getting on the forums and crying and screaming because the couldn't 1v1 the boss of VMOL and ZOS saying, "Awwww, that's okay. We'll change it so you can."

out51d3r

Earthewen wrote: »

I feel as though the group play style is woefully under represented in the grand scheme of things.

Huh. You feel that there needs to be -more- large group focus in Cyrodiil?

Turelus

Earthewen wrote: »

Here's the thing though. Who are they accommodating? Are they ONLY listening to people who have one play style?

How do you know this, do you have the entire list of players or guilds they've spoken with?
The invites recently were to test specific content (small arena PvP) and Morrowind.

From the names we know they invited PvP and PvE players who have a solid grasp and understanding of the games current mechanics as this was their focus point.

If they're looking to make changes on Cyrodiil they would be asking the Cyrodiil community or checking forums. Brian is actually one of the better developers for posting changes and ideas on the forums to get player feedback.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Earthewen

Here is the deal though, Large groups get all the benefits.

Back in 1.x Solo, small group, and large group PVP ALL co-existed in Cyrodiil. There were fights all over the map. in 1.6 this all changed.

this is when they started nerfing all the mobility and defense mechanics in the game.

1st they nerfed Bolt Escape for the 8th time
2nd they nerfed shield value by 15%
3rd they nerfed shield value by 50%
4th they nerfed damage by 50%
5th they nerfed Major Expedition from 40% to 30%
6th they nerfed Dodge roll giving it the Bolt Escape treatment
7th they instituted an AOE cap that no one wanted.
8th due to AOE caps you take reduced damage just because your next to someone
9th they began removing skillfull counterplay from the game.
10th They added a root/snare and mini slience to gap closers to make it easier to be zerged down.
11th decreased shield duration by 70%
12th not being able to double reflect
13th Not able to reflect Meteor
14th Not able to Purge/Cloak Soul Assault
15th no cooldown on roots
16th adding a stupidly OP unblockable Destro Staff ult to favor zergs

It just never ends...its like ZOS is telling everyone:

"Here's your zerg PVP, oh don't like that? here is the door"

Many of those guys, took the door...Ezareth, Leper Si, Araxleaon, Vita Belial, King of Thieves, Murdo, Vanus, I could go on....this game has bleed sooooo many skilled PVPer its not even funny....for what?

Combat in this game is as dumbed down as its ever been. It has made the games overall environment WORSE not better. Sage, Konkle, and Aliprando repeatably said they wanted "skillful and meaningful combat with attacks and counters" what we have now is a button mashing fest.

As broken as root spam is, its the last thing left to combine with Negate to fight outnumbered, i fully expect Negate to be changed (Root untouched)so numbers always win, outplaying 3 times your number of potatoes will no longer be an option to win, and when a game goes down that route(ESO largely has) its only a matter of time before the game dies out.

Alot of these changes they have made they need to revert....they need to bring back the survivability and defense mechanics the game used to have to encourage people to play the whole map. When your always rooted/snared, penalized for defending yourself(Bolt Escape/Dodge roll), and one shot gank builds are off the charts, all it does is promote everyone to be tanky and everyone to zerg.

ESO has literately become the game now where "Everyone is a house". when everyone is a house, it just comes down to numbers. This means everyone just holds block and waits for reinforcements There is a reason ESO streaming is at an all time low right now.

Most folks are holding out for Battlegrounds, If Battlegrounds is not a big success, Cyrodiil will look like it did in July and August of 2014 where everyone quit and Cyrodiil was largely a ghost town(With maybe 3 bars at primetime) until the B2P announcement.

A lot of these changes need to be reverted, and siege needs to be as powerful on CP campaigns as it is on non-cp. Keep fights now just come down to who brings the most people....read the "Remember the Chalmo" in Chalman keep, it wasn't always that way....thats how far the game has fallen....they should just take that book out of the game, because with the changes they made, thats a pipe dream...wouldn't happen in todays game....not with the way things are and all the skillful counterplay and nerfs to defense mechanics.

Earthewen

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Lol at all the people saying unsub and stop buying crowns. The forums are such a microcosm and many forget that. The ESO population has grown. Probably saw a good size boost when One Tamriel came out, and I expect Morrowind to sell well and for the population to grow yet again.

There was a crusade against crown crates on the forums.... Last I knew crown crates are still around, still being updated, and I see people flying all over all the zones with crown crate mounts and what not. Not to mention all the elk mounts I see (weren't they something like $40 USD when first released?)

You have players returning to ESO. Come to think of it, for all the "hate" ESO receives you have a lot of the (perma?) banned chumps purchasing the game again, creating new account, and coming back. Of course Scipio still makes fun of them lolscipiolol.

Wait, so you're telling me that the banned people are coming into the game and creating new account, etc.? Could it be because they know it will take months before they get caught doing the same things that got them banned in the first place? I literally had a guy who was macroing or scripting in PVP. We sent a whisper and his answer was, "So?" When told he would be reported, he replied, "So what?! ZOS won't do anything. Good luck!"

Sorry, I think you missed the boat on that one. Just because a cheater comes back to a game that he got away with cheating on for a year or so, doesn't necessarily mean that the game was so much fun that he couldn't leave to do something else. I think it's more of a case of someone saying, "I'm so awesome man! I melt whole raids by myself!!! Who cares if I did it with cheats! I did it. Oops, I got caught this time. I'll just come back and do it again for another year. it'll take ZOS that long to take action. heeheee."

Also, I don't believe at all that the ESO pop has grown. I would need to see facts on that. All I see is that One Tamriel was a veiled closing down of servers in order to boost the appearance of a larger pop. I would definitely have to see the spreadsheets on that before I believed it.

As far as the Crown Crates, you supported my belief exactly that they are raking in the money for a few pixels. So, why on earth would we have to make a separate purchase for Morrowind when we are subscribers? At least let us spend Crowns on it.

I don't hate ESO or any other person I don't know. I am getting tired of the group players being told how wrong, skill-less, and sucky they are if they have a group or a raid. I'm tired of so many things being changed in this game as if there is only ONE STYLE OF PLAY! There ISN'T only one style of play here, so why not recognize that the diversity is a GOOD THING.

Soul_Demon

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Esgameplaya1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

I can see why; who in there right mind would want to watch the same BS after three years on twitch.

Its a fair consideration - but not the issue at all. In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I was once told by a player in my guild who is now a developer at ZOS that ZOS reads every single post on the forums. Every one. and they said that the best way to be heard was to post on the forums.

Idk if that was 100% true or whatever but they landed a job with zos so they knew something i didnt.

as to the OP, i think the big name streamers do in fact know a lot about ESO, whether that be game mechanics, system behavior, attunement to the overall direction the game is going however, i am wary of zos listening to them at all because at the end of the day they are being paid for streaming these games and I think alot of their perspective is geared towards garnering subscribers and views and donations. Thats a conflict of interest and i just cant trust the opinions of someone with that conflict of interest shaping the future of this game.

Might be just that where we are today feels more like it has gone the direction of the solo 1vx play style

Like.. what game are some people playing? Did streamers ask for poisons that can be applied by multiple people so when were outnumbered we get absolutely crushed on resources while giving a static ult gen regardless of the amount of people were fighting to ensure simply being outnumbered will result in eventual death? This game is in a terrible place for 1vX experience. The success you have is due to your opponent either not coming to the fight with the right build or enough CP. These didnt use to be the heavily deciding factors.

The things I notice may be the result of other outside influence's or just ZOS making decisions and not sharing exactly why. Things like Rapids caps, Barrier, Prox Det, Purge ect have been changed for whatever reason- but from PvP perspective it can easily feel like those were viable and reduced from complaints they favored larger groups due to the number of players who could be hit with them.

Most of the complaints I saw on forums seemed to be along the lines of "we are just four guys, why should a group of 16 players be able to have five people available to constantly use those skills when we only have four of us total. Those skills need caps to help small man groups" So, streamers may not have asked for poisons- but to me it sounds familiar as those statements about Purge, Rapids, Prox Det and Barrier are OP (insert Eye of the Storm next)- large groups can afford to cast more of them, four man groups don't have that ability because of our size so we need to look at them more closely and find a way to drop down effectiveness with caps to help the small groups.

The bugs we have had for ages seem to still be ever present and lag still an issue to this day.....but we have battlefields coming out with our next game installment. This could be seen as another catering to specific playstyle, especially when you consider the man hours into this when we could already do this in game if we choose to in cyro.....something the streamers have spoken about for a very long time. The changes without knowing why can easily feel like the directions are funneled into a small man or 1vx playstyle. Maybe someone knows why and can say for sure that it was not that at all.

Earthewen

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Here's the thing though. Who are they accommodating? Are they ONLY listening to people who have one play style?

How do you know this, do you have the entire list of players or guilds they've spoken with?
The invites recently were to test specific content (small arena PvP) and Morrowind.

From the names we know they invited PvP and PvE players who have a solid grasp and understanding of the games current mechanics as this was their focus point.

If they're looking to make changes on Cyrodiil they would be asking the Cyrodiil community or checking forums. Brian is actually one of the better developers for posting changes and ideas on the forums to get player feedback.

I'm ASKING for information here. NOT making a declaration!!!! I'm still looking for an answer.

Earthewen

Okay, guys. I'm asking for answers here. Who here, who is participating in this discussion right now, is a raid lead of a larger group who has made suggestions and it has been either responded, listened to, etc.?

FENGRUSH

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Here's the thing though. Who are they accommodating? Are they ONLY listening to people who have one play style?

How do you know this, do you have the entire list of players or guilds they've spoken with?
The invites recently were to test specific content (small arena PvP) and Morrowind.

From the names we know they invited PvP and PvE players who have a solid grasp and understanding of the games current mechanics as this was their focus point.

If they're looking to make changes on Cyrodiil they would be asking the Cyrodiil community or checking forums. Brian is actually one of the better developers for posting changes and ideas on the forums to get player feedback.

I'm ASKING for information here. NOT making a declaration!!!! I'm still looking for an answer.

Devs used to hold meetings a lot online at different intervals to discuss PvP/balance issues and other issues outside of PvP. Large PvP guilds and trade guilds were invited, not the small scaler PvPers. Some of them eventually got included once they knew about it - but issues from a PvP perspective were generally shared, even if they were disagreed upon (example, rapids changes, and how many people should be hit with barrier).

Earthewen wrote: »

Here's the thing though. Who are they accommodating? Are they ONLY listening to people who have one play style? Let's face it. There is no right or wrong play style especially for PVP. There is a group play and a smaller, ganker style. I feel as though the group play style is woefully under represented in the grand scheme of things. I'm certainly not the one to ask about what to do for an MMO. I just play the game as it stands now. I have some ideas, but usually it has to do with getting a guild banner on my house. LOL

However, there are some really good raid leads out there that could give some great ideas on ways to improve group play especially in PVP. Why aren't those guys being heard? I feel as though the ganker types are so loud, they just want to drown out anyone whose play style is different from theirs. Who, in this forum right now, is a large group raid lead and knows for a fact that they are being heard and their suggestions put into action?

This game was marketed as a guild versus guild PVP in the beginning. However, it has changed due to the crying of the ganker who couldn't kill the massive groups they encountered on the field. That's like a person getting on the forums and crying and screaming because the couldn't 1v1 the boss of VMOL and ZOS saying, "Awwww, that's okay. We'll change it so you can."

I dont think anything in the game has been changed to accomodate a crying ganker. Are you referring to people who solo or play in small groups? I wouldnt consider them gankers. Most of these people have played or do play inside small or mid sized parties and also solo from time to time as well. A ganker is someone who bursts from stealth.

Ultimately youre so terribly off in who the accommodations have been made from starting from where this game was to where it is today. This post really shows you dont know what is going on anywhere at all - which is allright. But everything in your post is pretty much wrong. @RinaldoGandolphi posted lots of great points so Ill just leave it there.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Esgameplaya1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Why does it feel like if you aren't screaming at the top of your lungs about what your opinion is, ZOS doesn't seem to listen? Why does it feel like until you have a TWITCH channel that people subscribe to, you're opinions don't matter at all? When is ZOS going to take into account the opinions of the rest of us?

Theres plenty of changes that have happened to the game that most every big twitch streamer has opposed. One would assume from your post that the game has been shaped by the twitch streamers. If that were the case, the twitch community wouldnt be at such a dramatic low right now for ESO.

I believe you need to rethink the entire post.

I can see why; who in there right mind would want to watch the same BS after three years on twitch.

Its a fair consideration - but not the issue at all. In my opinion - actual skill through the fight and gameplay has been stripped through patches. CP, equipment, and mechanics (such as root/snare abuse) to broadly and shortly cover the difference of now vs before is a huge difference.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I was once told by a player in my guild who is now a developer at ZOS that ZOS reads every single post on the forums. Every one. and they said that the best way to be heard was to post on the forums.

Idk if that was 100% true or whatever but they landed a job with zos so they knew something i didnt.

as to the OP, i think the big name streamers do in fact know a lot about ESO, whether that be game mechanics, system behavior, attunement to the overall direction the game is going however, i am wary of zos listening to them at all because at the end of the day they are being paid for streaming these games and I think alot of their perspective is geared towards garnering subscribers and views and donations. Thats a conflict of interest and i just cant trust the opinions of someone with that conflict of interest shaping the future of this game.

Might be just that where we are today feels more like it has gone the direction of the solo 1vx play style

Like.. what game are some people playing? Did streamers ask for poisons that can be applied by multiple people so when were outnumbered we get absolutely crushed on resources while giving a static ult gen regardless of the amount of people were fighting to ensure simply being outnumbered will result in eventual death? This game is in a terrible place for 1vX experience. The success you have is due to your opponent either not coming to the fight with the right build or enough CP. These didnt use to be the heavily deciding factors.

The things I notice may be the result of other outside influence's or just ZOS making decisions and not sharing exactly why. Things like Rapids caps, Barrier, Prox Det, Purge ect have been changed for whatever reason- but from PvP perspective it can easily feel like those were viable and reduced from complaints they favored larger groups due to the number of players who could be hit with them.

Most of the complaints I saw on forums seemed to be along the lines of "we are just four guys, why should a group of 16 players be able to have five people available to constantly use those skills when we only have four of us total. Those skills need caps to help small man groups" So, streamers may not have asked for poisons- but to me it sounds familiar as those statements about Purge, Rapids, Prox Det and Barrier are OP (insert Eye of the Storm next)- large groups can afford to cast more of them, four man groups don't have that ability because of our size so we need to look at them more closely and find a way to drop down effectiveness with caps to help the small groups.

The bugs we have had for ages seem to still be ever present and lag still an issue to this day.....but we have battlefields coming out with our next game installment. This could be seen as another catering to specific playstyle, especially when you consider the man hours into this when we could already do this in game if we choose to in cyro.....something the streamers have spoken about for a very long time. The changes without knowing why can easily feel like the directions are funneled into a small man or 1vx playstyle. Maybe someone knows why and can say for sure that it was not that at all.

BGs were worked on before people ever complained or asked for them. It was also their intention to put these in. The PvP team worked on IC before that and had to deliver that post launch of the game.

I think everyone agrees wed like to see less bugs and less lag. The solutions required for those are heavily debated, but to put it simply - the game doesnt handle what it used to at launch and what it advertised. The kind of massive fights where 100-200 people could fight inside a courtyard of a keep and not experience both performance (client lag), and server (latency+performance) issues. This is due to everything added to the game. If the game changes, the rules need to adjust to help these issues. At this time, they have not. This lends partially to peoples disdain for large 'zerg' forces.

The other issue is zerging didnt always have all the benefits. Dynamic ult gen existed at the release for a very specific reason, and its design was good. The issue was the numbers were off and players used to play to its strength to take advantage of it while fighting greater numbers. So smaller forces to abuse dynamic ult gen to wipe out larger groups of less knowledgeable players with ease. This isnt essentially wrong (though its a matter of opinion) - the numbers were too good for dynamic ult gen. Rather than adjust the numbers, they removed the mechanic altogether. Additionally, they put in AOE caps. They also had group skills that applied to the raids and ultimately an environment was created that scaled so heavily in favor of numbers that strategy, skill, and planning had no effect when outnumbered. That is how we got to where we are today.

So some of these complaints you mention are perfectly valid. But anyone who disagrees with the above paragraph might as well hold a viewpoint that numbers should trump everything else. If I have 19 other players with me of my skill level against 4 others of my skill level, we will kill those 4 every time with ease even with the strongest dynamic ult gen, because we understand the game and can coordinate our damage. If 20 players with much lower skill, planning, or coordination can do the same thing, its poor design really. They will absolutely have the advantage, and in many situations, could simply win the fight just by firing off a few ults on a target. But if players have no chance to fight, why would they. This is why a lot of players stopped bothering to login and when they see a campaign pop locked and their faction is at 1-2 bar, they decide to fight elsewhere rather than jump in that fight. There is no hope for them, the game has been shaped to reinforce that concept.

If the game environment in Cyro is to improve, it needs to break up the monotony that is present. This has nothing to do with small group players giving feedback or larger group - it has to do with making a functional environment that is enjoyable for small/large new/old players. Today, it is not. And that is an issue. Breaking up large zergs (multiple groups all pushing the same front) is pretty essential to it. This is not achieved solely through giving players effective and interesting tools to combat those zergs (which they dont have) - it also includes changing the map structure.

Cyro does need help. Id rather see Cyro be a better place than have BGs, and BGs are very fun. But I prefer a healthy open world environment where there are solo, small group, and large group players present. This used to exist in a much better harmony. There had always been problems - but players are pushed into a corner with no options in a lot of environments that dont include running with the horde. Who should ZOS be listening to? People that get this concept. Anyone throwing out BS against small group players and even some posters calling them 'gankers' is as bad as players writing off anyone in large groups. Large groups are good and awesome parts of the gameplay. Ive done them myself. My issue with them is they literally require little to no skill in 95% of your combat in Cyro (20+ people). This is equally as boring to me as a player as solo play is frustrating. Groups shouldnt really need to go above 12 people at this point in the game. But that is just my opinion. There are players that have been around as long as I have and play at a very high skill level in large groups too, that is their preference. Ultimately, if ZOS does fix Cyro - they will need to listen to these type of players to get it done, and they need to make dramatic changes to group play and how things work in PvP. It is not a good place right now, hasnt been for awhile, and they have babied small bandaid fixes to address issues rather than take dramatic change needed to not rock the boat too much.

out51d3r

Large scale pvp does have problems, but the idea that ZOS has been making changes in favor of small group pvp to the detriment of large scale pvp is completely unfounded.

Soul_Demon

Great points to be sure, but a few things I don't either completely understand or just don't remember developing in quite that way. Not entirely out the realm of possibility that I simply have faults in my timeline. You mentioned that early on we used to have meetings with the player base for feed back, was that just acknowledging that we no longer do this or was it pointing to that those were guilds that left early on as the game continued to develop without that influence? You mentioned also the battle grounds being something they were speaking of before the community began to ask for them....you might be in a position to know for sure, but it seems like the first time this was revealed was after it had been spoken about in forums and on Streaming channels.

One thing seems apparent to me while reading, that is its less about one particular play style and more about input on current and future direction of the game from the players perspective. The current methods are wrapped in mystery or simply spoken of so infrequently that they give the feeling the community isn't involved as much as it should be. If the new players can not get plugged in right away in PvP with small groups or guilds, the learning curve must feel so steep that it seems the only way to go is mass up and mindlessly hit buttons. I don't think its really wise to have the new player experience on how to play the game learned in forums or simply running out into Cyro solo to get scooped up into a mob for survival.

The population that is here now should be tapped in a more productive way to provide that input, after all.....we all benefit from a constant flow of new players coming into Cyro as much as we benefit from improved feedback methods to protect the current populations. Changes to the game will be made with or without the players involved, but I think the best way to do that would be to take a hard look at how we do that now and what might improve it. Specifically if we don't have a reasonable amount of the community posting they have been involved in the process (even if just heard) then maybe therein lies the problem.

out51d3r

I think the problem is that people assume that the group that is complaining loudest(in pvp right now that's small scalers) is actually getting listened to. That's not the case. ZOS quite clearly intends Cyrodiil to be focused on large scale pvp. The complaints are either ignored or addressed in ways that don't actively harm large scale pvp.

I suspect ZOS intends for small scalers to move to battlegrounds. It's probably not a coincidence that small scale pvper input was solicited specifically when battlegrounds are getting close to release.

Joy_Division

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

Elsonso

Joy_Division wrote: »

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

Yeah, to a certain extent, those who hold an opinion probably feel that way. To me, this means that ZOS is doing their thing, and not following a particular group.

FENGRUSH

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think @Earthewen raises a legitimate question.

But the thing is nobody feels they are being represented and everybody thinks the game has been balanced toward the style the don't play.

People say ZoS has been catering to "zerg guilds" and I just have to laugh. Because the changes to impulse, rapid maneuvers, barrier, steel tornado, the AoE cap damage increase, purge, AP adjustment for smaller groups, breath of life/LOS healing, increase to siege damage, proximity det, and numerous others have all been implemented because of loud forum backlash against "zergs," "ball-groups," "stack on Crown guilds," or whatever you want to call them. In the nearly two years I have been a member of one of the more visible of these guilds on the NA server, we have never once had a guild meeting with a developer. Not once.

This doesn't mean I don't think the game has been dumbed down or that I don't think it generally more disadvantageous to those who are outnumbered. It is But it is *not* because they are listening to Zergers. It is because ZoS does not have a clear articulated vision and lack coherence in picking the issues they do address (as well as coming up with random "fixes" to things that are not raised on these forums). They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective. As far as the source of who they listen to, it comes from everyone ... but "everyone" means say 4 playstyles you don't care about/detest in additional to your own. So only 1 out of 5 changes you are going to be happy about. In the end, ZoS winds up alienating everyone and nobody feels they are represented.

PvErs are convinced PvP whining ruins their end-game.
PvPers are convinced PvE "carebears" are dumbing the game down.
Non-streamers are convinced "1vXers" have a disproportionate influence because of their visibility and the ridiculously powerful builds that are possible.
Small-Scale players convinced every patch ZoS intentionally chips away at 1vX feasibility.
Etc., etc.

I think this is a really good post. And I agree, I dont think they are actively designing Cyro changes from one point to another. Balance changes happen - certain targeted ones for loud concerns - and they are real concerns that do require very specific solutions. But they will always have impact on the grand scheme, along with everything else that comes patch to patch.

Ive always said there is a lack of vision, and a lack of understanding on whats going on in Cyro, where its at, and one can allow all these playstyles to exist in a reasonable way. At this point, even large groups/full raids fall victim to hoardes in ways they wouldnt have in previous patches when their coordination was extremely dominant as well.

The game is in a state where its less about ball groups and its just where the server is going (multiple raids). Otherwise, the server is dead - and there arent many servers left. So if you dont find a place in one of these and are entertained by pushing between bleakers and chalman every night for example.. you might find yourself taking a break from the game.

Thelon

Joy_Division wrote: »

They are a rudderless ship, from patch to patch they have a goal, but these goals are not consistent nor lead the game to a desired objective.

leaders who don't listen will eventually be surrounded by people who have nothing to say

NBrookus

Soul_Demon wrote: »

If the new players can not get plugged in right away in PvP with small groups or guilds, the learning curve must feel so steep that it seems the only way to go is mass up and mindlessly hit buttons. I don't think its really wise to have the new player experience on how to play the game learned in forums or simply running out into Cyro solo to get scooped up into a mob for survival.

This is very similar to the complaints people had about normal dungeons versus vet dungeons versus trial content. I think ZOS has done a pretty good job of creating bridge content that allows players to progress to harder dungeons, they just need to better communicate difficultly levels.

When a new chum comes into Cyro, they are AP fodder for a while. They can group up with randoms or, better, one of the PUGherder guilds, and actually get to play a bit. But the path of progress from walking AOE cap to being effective in PvP is really rough. The dumification of skills and proc sets does not help the learning process at all.

Battlegrounds might be a partial solution. Players can get a chance to learn to function as individuals in a more controlled environment. New chums will still get lit up like a pinball machine, but there will no doubt be videos galore of layouts and tactics and strategies to give them some pointers. Then they can take those skills and new confidence out into the open world of Cyrodiil, if they choose to.

Rickter

I think the fact that duels and battlegrounds in eso means the devs are listening to the playerbase. granted, duels shouldve been a launch feature. i dont hear many things outside of "cyrodiil needs a massive overhaul" but those suggestions are being thrown around with no insight into how things would actually translate on the development level, they just want want want.

as far as the server performance, i blame the players. players are bottlenecking themselves in trueflame and then compaining about server performance. this is an open world pvp game, name any other where there is no server lag when strained the way trueflame is.