When Will ZOS Start Listening to the Rest of Us?

Derra

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also would you mind answering my question from above?

The fact that Battlegrounds are being introduced is in direct response to the small scale pvp elite. Seriously you think this was in any kind of original layout of the game? What impact do you think this will have on Cyro over-world? its not going to make it more healthy thats for sure! ZOS signed Cyro's death warrant to cater to the 1vX "small Scale" snobs

The various changes to help "break up zergs" such as increasing siege dmg, lifting aoe caps (at least in its current form) are to accommodate smaller groups and break zergs.

Destro Ulti.

Derra wrote: »

Is there any high profile pvp player who actually thinks the open world pvp playerbase isn´t declining?

What kind of question is this? What "high profile" pvp player isnt preaching 1vX or "small scale" of course theyd share the same opinion because thats the agenda.

I´m for one not preaching that. I have always taken the stand that an ideal open world pvp game tries to accomodate every possible playstyle (except for stackoncrown blobgrps because they create a meta where only this type of play is relevant - which is precisely what i think makes bad pvp). The problem of eso and cyrodiil is that they´re doing the opposite.

Battlegrounds - i´m not a fan of those either. But realisticly with how the game is being patched balance wise it´s the only thing that will keep me playing.
Why is that? Because the game is getting dumbed down in numerous ways - mostly with the goal to make it easier to kill opponents when outnumbering them (on any scale).

So in my opinion they did not sign cyros death sentence by providing battlegrounds in an attempt to cater to smallscale players.
They signed cyros death sentence when they brought in the beforementioned mechanics reinforcing numbers/outnumbering while removing counters - specifically talking about in no special order: Poisons, streakcostincrease, sprint/majorexpeditionspeed, static/dynamic ult, dodgecostincrease, doublereflect, undodgeable/unreflectable unwhateverable, proccsets, bowspeed, etc pp

ZOS has gone long was to remove/alter the tools people used to outplay an opposition with a numerical advantage. This has reached a point where smallgroups and fun in cyrodiil don´t go very well alongside each other in the same sentence without "".
They´ve patched away the ability for smaller groups to provide relevant contribution and find fun in cyrodiil - and are now trying to bandaid fix this mistakes in providing battlegrounds.
So in my opinion your argument isn´t really one - because in my view battlegrounds are not going to draw players from cyro that would have otherwise stayed there.
I and the people i play with aswell as most people i talk to would simply leave the game. Either way you won´t see us in cyrodiil and that is due to zos balancing decisions.

As far as aoe caps go: That´s targetted at stack on crown blobgroups - not zergs (idk if those are interchangeable for you).

Siegedmg: do you remember launch? Siege is nowhere close to as threatening as it once was prior to 1.6 even with the "buffs". Though i agree 8s leftmouseclicking should not be able to produce kills at all.

Destro ulti: Are you for real? Do you realize who gets the most out of destro ult? You´re right. The force that can stack the most of them on top of each other. How did destro ult help smallscale... It´s horrible because it gets utilized against you. I don´t know many smallscalers who actually thing destro ult is a good thing.

Satiar

If ZoS has actually been listening to streamers and certain guilds, then my main question is what the actual *** have you guys been telling them?

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also would you mind answering my question from above?

The fact that Battlegrounds are being introduced is in direct response to the small scale pvp elite. Seriously you think this was in any kind of original layout of the game? What impact do you think this will have on Cyro over-world? its not going to make it more healthy thats for sure! ZOS signed Cyro's death warrant to cater to the 1vX "small Scale" snobs

The various changes to help "break up zergs" such as increasing siege dmg, lifting aoe caps (at least in its current form) are to accommodate smaller groups and break zergs.

Destro Ulti.

Derra wrote: »

Is there any high profile pvp player who actually thinks the open world pvp playerbase isn´t declining?

What kind of question is this? What "high profile" pvp player isnt preaching 1vX or "small scale" of course theyd share the same opinion because thats the agenda.

I´m for one not preaching that. I have always taken the stand that an ideal open world pvp game tries to accomodate every possible playstyle. The problem of eso and cyrodiil is that they´re doing precisely the opposite.

Battlegrounds - i´m not a fan of those either. But realisticly with how the game is being patched balance wise it´s the only thing that will keep me playing.
Why is that? Because the game is getting dumbed down in numerous ways - mostly with the goal to make it easier to kill opponents when outnumbering them (on any scale).

So in my opinion they did not sign cyros death sentence by providing battlegrounds in an attempt to cater to smallscale players.
They signed cyros death sentence when they brought in the beforementioned mechanics reinforcing numbers/outnumbering while removing counters - specifically talking about in no special order: Poisons, streakcostincrease, sprint/majorexpeditionspeed, static/dynamic ult, dodgecostincrease, doublereflect, undodgeable/unreflectable unwhateverable, proccsets, bowspeed, etc pp

ZOS has gone long was to remove/alter the tools people used to outplay an opposition with a numerical advantage. This has reached a point where smallgroups and fun in cyrodiil don´t go very well alongside each other in the same sentence without "".
They´ve patched away the ability for smaller groups to provide relevant contribution and find fun in cyrodiil - and are now trying to bandaid fix this mistakes in providing battlegrounds.
So in my opinion your argument isn´t really one - because in my view battlegrounds are not going to draw players from cyro that would have otherwise stayed there.
I and the people i play with aswell as most people i talk to would simply leave the game. Either way you won´t see us in cyrodiil and that is due to zos balancing decisions.

As far as aoe caps go: That´s targetted at stack on crown blobgroups - not zergs (idk if those are interchangeable for you).

Siegedmg: do you remember launch? Siege is nowhere close to as threatening as it once was prior to 1.6 even with the "buffs". Though i agree 8s leftmouseclicking should not be able to produce kills at all.

Destro ulti: Are you for real? Do you realize who gets the most out of destro ult? You´re right. The force that can stack the most of them on top of each other. How did destro ult help smallscale... It´s horrible because it gets utilized against you. I don´t know many smallscalers who actually thing destro ult is a good thing.

Well said on all points - speaks for a large portion of players. I prefer open world Cyro, its just brutal...

Earthewen

NBrookus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

The fact that Battlegrounds are being introduced is in direct response to the small scale pvp elite. Seriously you think this was in any kind of original layout of the game?

June 2014 ESO Battlegrounds demo, 2 months after the game's release:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/06/eso-e3-3v3-demo/

Speaking of pvp ghost town, have you seen Haderus this week? This is not a healthy, vibrant campaign right now. When a map can be painted a solid color on a Friday afternoon, or have 4 emps in a single day yesterday, it's got issues no matter how you slice it.

Hey, @NBrookus. Did anyone complain last campaign when it was all yellow? Or when it was all blue? Was that healthy?

No, that wasn't healthy either. Nor was the emp swapping AD and EP -- and later on DC -- were doing. (And I did a fair amount of complaining about it.) This isn't a faction thing. You said yourself earlier that a big DC group was zerging the map for grins. That fact one group can do that at all is a symptom of sickness.

Brooks, I agree with you on this. The answer to the problem is a complicated one for sure, but in the analysis of solutions, I think the human tendency for the easy button might be getting left out. There are advantage players, to borrow a term from the casino gaming world. That will never change until steps are taken to do so. I'm not talking about the normal advantages of running with a group or having good gear. I'm talking about the "stacking of the deck", or so to speak. If you know before you "place your bet" what the outcome is going to be, then it isn't a game anymore, and that just isn't fun for the majority of players who want an honest good time just playing.

Earthewen

Satiar wrote: »

If ZoS has actually been listening to streamers and certain guilds, then my main question is what the actual *** have you guys been telling them?

HAHAH @Satiar that was a gem of a question. You made me giggle. :-)

IxSTALKERxI

Satiar wrote: »

If ZoS has actually been listening to streamers and certain guilds, then my main question is what the actual *** have you guys been telling them?

You can listen to the community and disagree with what they are saying.

Derra

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

If ZoS has actually been listening to streamers and certain guilds, then my main question is what the actual *** have you guys been telling them?

You can listen to the community and disagree with what they are saying.

Large grp players aren´t happy.
Smallgroup players aren´t happy.
Soloplayers aren´t happy.

Who exactly is zos making the game for one might ask themselves?

IxSTALKERxI

Derra wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

If ZoS has actually been listening to streamers and certain guilds, then my main question is what the actual *** have you guys been telling them?

You can listen to the community and disagree with what they are saying.

Large grp players aren´t happy.
Smallgroup players aren´t happy.
Soloplayers aren´t happy.

Who exactly is zos making the game for one might ask themselves?

Casuals and people fresh out of skyrim who light attack in first person. :P

Rylana

hahahahahhahahahahahahaa

ahhhh

hhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

they didnt listen for 3 years, what makes any of you think they ever will

VincentBlanquin

Tribunal Lambert-Wrobel-Wheeler is unbeatable. only thing that can help is Red Mountain .....

Rickter

did i invoked the wrath of @FENGRUSH ? lol

look man, you went full keyboard commando just now. you realize that? you bullied your way to a baseless post about stuff you know nothing about.

Lets be very clear: you have absolutely ZERO data into any of the "reality check" topics you spoke of. Do you understand? ZERO factual basis for anything youve said. You've noted some observations. OBSERVATIONS on when you THINK the servers pop lock and the population bars. Like seriously? that was your platform to shut me down? You dont sit on the game staring at population bars in cyro - and if you do, it just confirms everything i think about streamers.

You classically came in here with your insulting attitude because you feel entitled. Entitled that you are the final say when it comes to ESO pvp when really youre just like anyone else.

as far as the

FENGRUSH wrote: »

posting in the no CP thread and getting completely blown out of the water on dumb comments about noCP from me and a lot of other players that would wipe you and your guilds group out because they are better players and have a better understanding of PvP?

1) i didnt respond because i honestly didnt even go back to the thread to check. lol. I get no notifications when someone quotes me either so idk if i have the setting turned off but in any case, I dont sit around waiting to hear back from you.

2) did you really say:

FENGRUSH wrote: »

me and a lot of other players that would wipe you and your guilds group out because they are better players

??? Did this pompous B.S. really come out of your mouth? hmmm #streamerlife right? man i should just bow down to you right now shouldnt i? You'd love that wouldnt you "Lord Fengrush"? life goals right here.

You sir have displayed over and over why so many people hate the streaming pvp elite circle jerk. thank you.

ESO pvp is not dying - the population has stabilized. for every big pvp name thats quit the game out of shameful failure to adapt because the game doesnt cater to their precious small scale - a new guild or name or whatever appears. There are guilds pvping now that i havent seen before. No matter where you go around East Coast prime time, youre going to find fights. BIG fights. I mean do i need to start posting screen shots? I go into IC on a wednesday - an AD AND EP large group - I pvp topside, AD AND EP large group - on a wednesday! You want to talk about observations - this is what I see.

And who exactly are you to say otherwise honestly? who are you man? youve pvp'd for a long time. cool. People pay to hear your opinions, you are blessed indeed. But dont B.S. your gifts by coing in here entitled and bullying others into conforming to your OPINIONS. Thats your streamer persona talking. You let that crap get to your head.

I used to think you knew what you were talking about. once. then i watched you preach that "Zos doesnt care about you" and you quit the game to play Paragon (lol how'd that work out) only to make a glorious come back after they BUFFED STAM SORC and here you go raiding in PvE and wearing ESO t-shirts drinking the kool aid again. Thats when you lost credibility. Youre a fairweather eso player and you dont deserve anything that was given to you.

Darnathian

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that I wanted to ask some hard questions that people were talking about in their TS and guild chats, but wasn't being asked in open forum. The large scale players wonder if they are being represented, and the fact that not one person here could say that they had even been tapped on the shoulder except for small scale players spoke volumes to me, which is a shame.

This statement right here is the main reason for my animosity (when manifested) on the forums. Its why i go on a rant about the "small pvp elite dictating the game for the rest of us".

I appreciate you starting this thread. See you in Haderus!

Can you give an example where the game got changed to accomodate the small elite playerbase though?

Because the way i see it - almost every change to skills and mechanics in regard to pvp happened because it was used by the pvp "elite" (small and largegrp).

Thats easy. Stam Sorc cough cough. Lol

Takllin

Darnathian wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that I wanted to ask some hard questions that people were talking about in their TS and guild chats, but wasn't being asked in open forum. The large scale players wonder if they are being represented, and the fact that not one person here could say that they had even been tapped on the shoulder except for small scale players spoke volumes to me, which is a shame.

This statement right here is the main reason for my animosity (when manifested) on the forums. Its why i go on a rant about the "small pvp elite dictating the game for the rest of us".

I appreciate you starting this thread. See you in Haderus!

Can you give an example where the game got changed to accomodate the small elite playerbase though?

Because the way i see it - almost every change to skills and mechanics in regard to pvp happened because it was used by the pvp "elite" (small and largegrp).

Thats easy. Stam Sorc cough cough. Lol

What change specifically? Because I can only think of changes that affected how well regarded stam sorcs became for both solo, small, and large group play.

Valencer

Rickter wrote: »

ESO pvp is not dying - the population has stabilized. for every big pvp name thats quit the game out of shameful failure to adapt because the game doesnt cater to their precious small scale - a new guild or name or whatever appears. There are guilds pvping now that i havent seen before. No matter where you go around East Coast prime time, youre going to find fights. BIG fights. I mean do i need to start posting screen shots? I go into IC on a wednesday - an AD AND EP large group - I pvp topside, AD AND EP large group - on a wednesday! You want to talk about observations - this is what I see.

So you saw a big group of puglings somewhere and somehow that means PvP is in a good/stable state?
At least on PC EU the competitive (read: not zerg surfers or free AP) guild scene is on life support. Really doubt PC NA is wildly different...

It's hard to adapt when there's nothing appealing to adapt to. Some people want more out of their game than stacking at that one keep/outpost with their whole alliance and pretending it's an engaging PvP experience.

Takllin

Valencer wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

ESO pvp is not dying - the population has stabilized. for every big pvp name thats quit the game out of shameful failure to adapt because the game doesnt cater to their precious small scale - a new guild or name or whatever appears. There are guilds pvping now that i havent seen before. No matter where you go around East Coast prime time, youre going to find fights. BIG fights. I mean do i need to start posting screen shots? I go into IC on a wednesday - an AD AND EP large group - I pvp topside, AD AND EP large group - on a wednesday! You want to talk about observations - this is what I see.

So you saw a big group of puglings somewhere and somehow that means PvP is in a good/stable state?

At least on PC EU the competitive (read: not zerg surfers or free AP) guild scene is on life support. Really doubt PC NA is wildly different...

This. Anyone that has played since the game came out would have to be blind to not say the game is dying as far as PvP is concerned. There used to be more pop capped campaigns than we have actual campaigns today. There used to be guilds you didn't know about because you hadn't run into them yet, but now there are guilds you didn't know about simply because they just formed recently. Otherwise you know everyone in PvP.

Regarding new guilds forming... 1) they're not forming at a rate to replace every guild that leaves. That's why we have less guilds today. 2) They form purely out of necessity because people need guilds and there's a vacuum that needs to be filled. This is unhealthy.

New guilds forming need to be because there's already other guilds and people not part of those other guilds want their own guild.

Minalan

Takllin wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that I wanted to ask some hard questions that people were talking about in their TS and guild chats, but wasn't being asked in open forum. The large scale players wonder if they are being represented, and the fact that not one person here could say that they had even been tapped on the shoulder except for small scale players spoke volumes to me, which is a shame.

This statement right here is the main reason for my animosity (when manifested) on the forums. Its why i go on a rant about the "small pvp elite dictating the game for the rest of us".

I appreciate you starting this thread. See you in Haderus!

Can you give an example where the game got changed to accomodate the small elite playerbase though?

Because the way i see it - almost every change to skills and mechanics in regard to pvp happened because it was used by the pvp "elite" (small and largegrp).

Thats easy. Stam Sorc cough cough. Lol

What change specifically? Because I can only think of changes that affected how well regarded stam sorcs became for both solo, small, and large group play.

Dark deal. What do I win?

StackonClown

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also would you mind answering my question from above?

The fact that Battlegrounds are being introduced is in direct response to the small scale pvp elite. Seriously you think this was in any kind of original layout of the game? What impact do you think this will have on Cyro over-world? its not going to make it more healthy thats for sure! ZOS signed Cyro's death warrant to cater to the 1vX "small Scale" snobs

The various changes to help "break up zergs" such as increasing siege dmg, lifting aoe caps (at least in its current form) are to accommodate smaller groups and break zergs.

Destro Ulti.

Derra wrote: »

Is there any high profile pvp player who actually thinks the open world pvp playerbase isn´t declining?

What kind of question is this? What "high profile" pvp player isnt preaching 1vX or "small scale" of course theyd share the same opinion because thats the agenda.

I´m for one not preaching that. I have always taken the stand that an ideal open world pvp game tries to accomodate every possible playstyle (except for stackoncrown blobgrps because they create a meta where only this type of play is relevant - which is precisely what i think makes bad pvp). The problem of eso and cyrodiil is that they´re doing the opposite.

Battlegrounds - i´m not a fan of those either. But realisticly with how the game is being patched balance wise it´s the only thing that will keep me playing.
Why is that? Because the game is getting dumbed down in numerous ways - mostly with the goal to make it easier to kill opponents when outnumbering them (on any scale).

So in my opinion they did not sign cyros death sentence by providing battlegrounds in an attempt to cater to smallscale players.
They signed cyros death sentence when they brought in the beforementioned mechanics reinforcing numbers/outnumbering while removing counters - specifically talking about in no special order: Poisons, streakcostincrease, sprint/majorexpeditionspeed, static/dynamic ult, dodgecostincrease, doublereflect, undodgeable/unreflectable unwhateverable, proccsets, bowspeed, etc pp

ZOS has gone long was to remove/alter the tools people used to outplay an opposition with a numerical advantage. This has reached a point where smallgroups and fun in cyrodiil don´t go very well alongside each other in the same sentence without "".
They´ve patched away the ability for smaller groups to provide relevant contribution and find fun in cyrodiil - and are now trying to bandaid fix this mistakes in providing battlegrounds.
So in my opinion your argument isn´t really one - because in my view battlegrounds are not going to draw players from cyro that would have otherwise stayed there.
I and the people i play with aswell as most people i talk to would simply leave the game. Either way you won´t see us in cyrodiil and that is due to zos balancing decisions.

As far as aoe caps go: That´s targetted at stack on crown blobgroups - not zergs (idk if those are interchangeable for you).

Siegedmg: do you remember launch? Siege is nowhere close to as threatening as it once was prior to 1.6 even with the "buffs". Though i agree 8s leftmouseclicking should not be able to produce kills at all.

Destro ulti: Are you for real? Do you realize who gets the most out of destro ult? You´re right. The force that can stack the most of them on top of each other. How did destro ult help smallscale... It´s horrible because it gets utilized against you. I don´t know many smallscalers who actually thing destro ult is a good thing.

Rather than give prominence to:

- self obsessed streamers
- small time operators charging for lessons
- 'im a professor' theory-krafters
- general elitist wannabees

how about giving some credit and reward to:

- the geniuses who are making some of the awseome PC addons that we all cant live without
- some really helpful and knowledgeable guild masters who run huge guilds, guild stores, run events, you name it

??

Rickter

StackonClown wrote: »

Rather than give prominence to:

- self obsessed streamers
- small time operators charging for lessons
- 'im a professor' theory-krafters
- general elitist wannabees

how about giving some credit and reward to:

- the geniuses who are making some of the awseome PC addons that we all cant live without
- some really helpful and knowledgeable guild masters who run huge guilds, guild stores, run events, you name it

??

This

ToRelax

StackonClown wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also would you mind answering my question from above?

The fact that Battlegrounds are being introduced is in direct response to the small scale pvp elite. Seriously you think this was in any kind of original layout of the game? What impact do you think this will have on Cyro over-world? its not going to make it more healthy thats for sure! ZOS signed Cyro's death warrant to cater to the 1vX "small Scale" snobs

The various changes to help "break up zergs" such as increasing siege dmg, lifting aoe caps (at least in its current form) are to accommodate smaller groups and break zergs.

Destro Ulti.

Derra wrote: »

Is there any high profile pvp player who actually thinks the open world pvp playerbase isn´t declining?

What kind of question is this? What "high profile" pvp player isnt preaching 1vX or "small scale" of course theyd share the same opinion because thats the agenda.

I´m for one not preaching that. I have always taken the stand that an ideal open world pvp game tries to accomodate every possible playstyle (except for stackoncrown blobgrps because they create a meta where only this type of play is relevant - which is precisely what i think makes bad pvp). The problem of eso and cyrodiil is that they´re doing the opposite.

Battlegrounds - i´m not a fan of those either. But realisticly with how the game is being patched balance wise it´s the only thing that will keep me playing.
Why is that? Because the game is getting dumbed down in numerous ways - mostly with the goal to make it easier to kill opponents when outnumbering them (on any scale).

So in my opinion they did not sign cyros death sentence by providing battlegrounds in an attempt to cater to smallscale players.
They signed cyros death sentence when they brought in the beforementioned mechanics reinforcing numbers/outnumbering while removing counters - specifically talking about in no special order: Poisons, streakcostincrease, sprint/majorexpeditionspeed, static/dynamic ult, dodgecostincrease, doublereflect, undodgeable/unreflectable unwhateverable, proccsets, bowspeed, etc pp

ZOS has gone long was to remove/alter the tools people used to outplay an opposition with a numerical advantage. This has reached a point where smallgroups and fun in cyrodiil don´t go very well alongside each other in the same sentence without "".
They´ve patched away the ability for smaller groups to provide relevant contribution and find fun in cyrodiil - and are now trying to bandaid fix this mistakes in providing battlegrounds.
So in my opinion your argument isn´t really one - because in my view battlegrounds are not going to draw players from cyro that would have otherwise stayed there.
I and the people i play with aswell as most people i talk to would simply leave the game. Either way you won´t see us in cyrodiil and that is due to zos balancing decisions.

As far as aoe caps go: That´s targetted at stack on crown blobgroups - not zergs (idk if those are interchangeable for you).

Siegedmg: do you remember launch? Siege is nowhere close to as threatening as it once was prior to 1.6 even with the "buffs". Though i agree 8s leftmouseclicking should not be able to produce kills at all.

Destro ulti: Are you for real? Do you realize who gets the most out of destro ult? You´re right. The force that can stack the most of them on top of each other. How did destro ult help smallscale... It´s horrible because it gets utilized against you. I don´t know many smallscalers who actually thing destro ult is a good thing.

Rather than give prominence to:

- self obsessed streamers
- small time operators charging for lessons
- 'im a professor' theory-krafters
- general elitist wannabees

how about giving some credit and reward to:

- the geniuses who are making some of the awseome PC addons that we all cant live without
- some really helpful and knowledgeable guild masters who run huge guilds, guild stores, run events, you name it

??

Idk about addons authors, but I know they had invited "some really helpful and knowledgeable guild masters who run huge guilds, guild stores, run events, you name it" to their studio...

QuebraRegra

Earthewen wrote: »

The reason I'm saying and asking this is because the current business model that these MMO companies are using are terrible. I have been watching LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) slowly dwindle to almost nothing. They literally were killing that game and it hadn't even reached Mordor yet. My question is this: If LOTRO all but dies with the same business model that ZOS is using, and they had the luxury of JRR Tolkien and Middle-Earth, the movies, and books, etc., plus the huge, global fan base for everything Hobbit and Elf and Numenor, why would ZOS, not having those luxuries, think they can survive this business model of money grabbing, kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and run to the next game mentality?

There's a damn honest thread somewhere about one of the LOTRO devs talking about what happened with LOTRO... very insightful...

Rickter

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

The reason I'm saying and asking this is because the current business model that these MMO companies are using are terrible. I have been watching LOTRO (Lord of the Rings Online) slowly dwindle to almost nothing. They literally were killing that game and it hadn't even reached Mordor yet. My question is this: If LOTRO all but dies with the same business model that ZOS is using, and they had the luxury of JRR Tolkien and Middle-Earth, the movies, and books, etc., plus the huge, global fan base for everything Hobbit and Elf and Numenor, why would ZOS, not having those luxuries, think they can survive this business model of money grabbing, kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and run to the next game mentality?

There's a damn honest thread somewhere about one of the LOTRO devs talking about what happened with LOTRO... very insightful...

link, please? @QuebraRegra