Cyrodiil Performance Test and Double AP Event

FlaviusPK

As a player I am glad that there's at last some steps for improving pvp experience. But also as a player I am:

A. Not really glad about whole week without cp while having a build which is not really viable without enough magicka regen for example.
B. Not really interested in all those calculations etc. Seriously guys, I am witnessing this Stockholm syndrome for all the time since I have registered a forum account. It's NOT our problem how many calculations server and client need to do. And removing proc suits (read somewhere in this thread) and similar methods is the worst way to fix the game. What's the point of optimization if you won't have a content to play with after, lol.

GrimJaw

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

"As someone who pvps a lot and also has a ton of CP, I must say, whatever is good for the game man."

-Methuselah

Holy **** OG baller status.

Derra

Torbschka wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

Holy crap, I really never write such things, but this nonsense..

Im.currently writing a doctor thesis and if they change 1 variable it is scientific. All you do is assuming that there are 2, but there arent. Changing the CP is 1 change, the less skill spam is a result of that, non a variable.

Furthermore there will still be 1 min big zerg spam fights, if theres better performance u even have the answer. People could even play with more regen - so no change in playstyle. Variables are controllable and playstyle ist none holy ***.

So stop this *** just cuz ur build wont work that 1 week and your "game without CP is no fünf" term. Maxybe it isnt for you, but maybe it is for others, u thought about that ? Lawl PLZ stop that.

Ofc player behavior is a variable in this case (as it changes with no CP because players will be unable to play the same way they would if there were cp).
Their problem is that one variable is dependant on the other in their system.

If they can not distinguish between:
a) less lag because of different player behavior
b) less lag because of no cp calculations

Their only solution is to permanently disable CP. Or change CP calculations and hope that fixes lag (with the real risk of player behavior being the deciding factor for lag and wasting work on a change with no effect - thiswould not be a risk if it wasn´t a variable - but it is).

To draw relevant conclusions they´d have to find a way for people to play the same way they do currently (ie same costs and dmg/reductions) without cp enabled. That would yield results.

I don´t have high hopes for your doctor thesis - unless it´s in gender studies but than why bring it up as it´s obviously irrelevant.

Of course its not, u arent a dumb guy derra , come on.

How u wanna controller how I am playing? Ur asdumption is -> less sustain - less spam. Fine. What if -> less sustain -> stack more regen -> same spam.

Variables are on ur side, u can controll them. U just cant controll how much the players will spam or not, u can try to put them into one field, but there are (eapecially in this game) always ways to compensate that.

Data like CP are variables, u just put them off or on. This is a variable. How u wanna put game style off or on? Okay got me, habe 10h maintenance

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Still not convinced. I guarentee that I will be able to create a setup with WAY more sustain than my current on the CP campaign and Im pretty sure both of u can do. The sacrifice in DMG is obvious, but thats about.

I dont give trash on derra, i like him, i just dont think hes (and you) are on the right track. I dont See how u wanna create the same playing field in this game, ur solution wont work either derra and its very simple.

E.g. I use atronach + regen drinks, u are mage + max food. U can do what u want, but as long as I am as a player has the choice to choose betweem different setups/styles u can not controll me - thats my whole point. There is no way u can controll me unless u have 5 skills, 1 set, 1 mundus and 1 drink/food and we obvious dont have that.

The problem is: Most people won´t go through the effort of adapting their build for one week.
That means those people (most likely the large silent majority) will skew your results.

When that´s a real possibility you have a test that can yield no conclusive result apart from a total failure. That is not a good test.

Also you´re having your whole argument backwards. You can´t control what the player does. True.
But that´s exactly why you have to present them with a test where they don´t have to change anything.
If the players in the first place have to change something to receive comparable results on their end (ie same sustain) your test is bad.
I have no idea how you can´t understand that.

You can´t control the player directly. Thats why you have to controll the environment so the player does not notice a change he might be inclined to react on.
That´s an absolutely basic approach to problem solving tbh.

Derra

Basically what is happening is:

There is a company where employees are missing working hours because they all have bowelproblems and spent atleast one hour on the restrooms per day. Also all employees are coffee addicts.

The company has a mexican cantina that also provides free coffee.

To test if the mexican food causes the problems the cantina gets closed down for a week.

Now the company won´t be able to tell if it´s the coffee, the mexican food or a combination of both creating the bowel problems.
The only usable result would be all employees still having bowel problems because maybe the tap water is unhealthy.

spudblack

If this test improves cyrodil performance massively I hope they make it a permanent change!
I have over 700 cp but could care less, if this leads to easier deaths less ability spamming and overall improved performance then this change should stay permanent. Champion points leads to ridiculous play styles that ruin this game!

Glamdring

Use some regen glyphs on jewelry instead and u are good to go, dont take much to make a CP build work decent in non CP.

Chapmaaaan

the fact the non CP campaigns run smoother is because there is less players in it.. the lag is due to many people being in one spot..spamming all their abilities. It's sad to think you're blaming CP for your server issues.. Xbox EU is even laggier than NA and there's less people

Etaniel

Glamdring wrote: »

Use some regen glyphs on jewelry instead and u are good to go, dont take much to make a CP build work decent in non CP.

yeaaaaah what if you are using 2 cost reduction glyphs, 1 regen and atro mundus?
Put on a sustain set?

For some it requires an entirely new build to switch to Non cp, switching glyphs isn't enough.

andy_s

@ZOS_BrianWheeler awesome news! Can you also double the xp gains in cyrodiil?

Clarkieson

To all in thread

Some interesting debates going on here and some very split opinions

one thing that has stood out for me is people asking for the removal of the champion point system altogether from the game. An interesting suggestion.

Surely then the Champion points earned to date would become useless, unless the gear level cap was raised. this would ensure that as you earned more champion points you would be entitled to better gear and that would be reflected in both PVP and PVE.

this bothers me slightly as i can see more mats to farm and more dropped sets to farm. farming is long and RNG is bs.
maybe a better loot reward system would be an idea too. i dont mind farming nodes for mats, but farming dropped sets in traits over and over again will get old fast.

any thoughts appreciated

rockmot

Id like to start out by saying I bought ESO for the sole purpose of playing in cyrodil against hundreds of players and have done so for the past 2 years. Now as far as the Azura star thing goes...... I play PS4 NA and back when azura star was a CP campaign it was the main battle server and the only time it functioned smoothly was when it was not primetime. Now that it's no longer a CP campaign very few players play there and it's primarily used by people who want a quick easy EMP flip. All of the die hard pvp players play in CP campaigns that's your core. Long story short you take CP away from all campaigns indefinitely upon conclusion of your "test" then there will be a mass exodus from ESO, especially with the lack of a steady flow of new and exciting PvE content .The people who play in non CP camps may like it because they feel CP camps are unbalanced but at the end of the day if you play a game and grind up experience to not even be able to use it then what why play at all. I'm definitely against the idea of testing server load without CP and just blatantly ignoring the fact that maybe the servers are just plain out ***. The only servers that function smoothly on a regular basis are the ones that aren't filled to capacity , and they all get laggy once you get over 30 players in one place at the same time. But don't mind me I'm just a guy whos played your game since day one kept an active subscription and played through all the glitches unending load screens and constant blue screens and unfixed bugs plz continue ignoring people like me.

kevlarto_ESO

I like it, this will expose cheaters since there will be no non CP build that will have infinite resources, I hope you find CP is bad and never bring them back in pvp, I would take good game play and better performance any day over CP.

Have you guys thought of changing the CP system to something that adds a little more utility make CP give you fun stuff for your character, things like feather fall, or watered down version of like leap or a bolt escape, just not as powerful as the core class, other little things. I think you are going find a lot of people been hiding the cheat engine under the CP system.

Looking forward to seeing how this plays out glad your planning on adjusting the AP at the resources, but you guys should have known that would happen.

Derra

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I like it, this will expose cheaters since there will be no non CP build that will have infinite resources

I loose because of CP but if i should loose without CP people obviously cheat - is that what you´re saying?

SlayerTheDragon

Now if they could just add non-set bonus rules to the no cp campaigns...

Masterfire

*** of test, i'm spending more times for farm CP for play better pvp...now ZOS will remove for 1 week te CP for all campaing.

If they were ever one day remove the CP from all campaigns do I do with the CP? PvE I do not do, and then? They represent the CP? All a waste of time and resources invested to create me to build with CP !!

leepalmer95

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I like it, this will expose cheaters since there will be no non CP build that will have infinite resources, I hope you find CP is bad and never bring them back in pvp, I would take good game play and better performance any day over CP.

Have you guys thought of changing the CP system to something that adds a little more utility make CP give you fun stuff for your character, things like feather fall, or watered down version of like leap or a bolt escape, just not as powerful as the core class, other little things. I think you are going find a lot of people been hiding the cheat engine under the CP system.

Looking forward to seeing how this plays out glad your planning on adjusting the AP at the resources, but you guys should have known that would happen.

What does cp have to do with cheating?

Are you serious?

'If they kill me it's because they have more cp and therefore are cheating'

Niaver

Good stuff, devs.
*salt* Glad to hear you care about Cyrodiil (even though it is in horrible spot right now, probably in two years or so you'll have a plan what to do with it).

INHUMANENATION

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Simply put, Azura’s Star (the non-Champion Point campaign) runs much better, more efficiently, and is overall a much better PvP experience than the standard campaigns such as Trueflame or Haderus. Now that we’ve had a significant population density in Azura’s Star, we strongly suspect what has been theorized for a long time: Champion Rank passives and abilities are causing too much server load, especially in situations like Keep battles where there are tons of players in one place.

-Wheeler

I've played alot on Ps4 NA. The campaigns that lag are the ones that have ppl in them. Azures is dead = no lag. Skull is dead mostly = no lag. When it gets lit we lag. Scourge is laggy but it's always lit.

Population + should show latency +. Theories based on innaccurate premises like Azures being populated concerns those of us that know it isn't. The only reason ppl go there is to get a quik Emp or town quests. CP already takes less time to lvl than a mount so get rid of it if it can fix something. I wonder y it was put in. . .

Xsorus

While I have no problem with testing, I do believe this will be pointless as lag existed before CP.

I've also noticed lag on AS when i played a bit on it as well...

however if it is CP and it goes away, Every build on TF is going to have to completely redo their builds for it...You simply run out of resources super quick...

XoxHANNIBALxoX

Sorry but I've not read all 11 pages but can someone tell me if this is on console also??

bowmanz607

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

Holy crap, I really never write such things, but this nonsense..

Im.currently writing a doctor thesis and if they change 1 variable it is scientific. All you do is assuming that there are 2, but there arent. Changing the CP is 1 change, the less skill spam is a result of that, non a variable.

Furthermore there will still be 1 min big zerg spam fights, if theres better performance u even have the answer. People could even play with more regen - so no change in playstyle. Variables are controllable and playstyle ist none holy ***.

So stop this *** just cuz ur build wont work that 1 week and your "game without CP is no fünf" term. Maxybe it isnt for you, but maybe it is for others, u thought about that ? Lawl PLZ stop that.

Ofc player behavior is a variable in this case (as it changes with no CP because players will be unable to play the same way they would if there were cp).
Their problem is that one variable is dependant on the other in their system.

If they can not distinguish between:
a) less lag because of different player behavior
b) less lag because of no cp calculations

Their only solution is to permanently disable CP. Or change CP calculations and hope that fixes lag (with the real risk of player behavior being the deciding factor for lag and wasting work on a change with no effect - thiswould not be a risk if it wasn´t a variable - but it is).

To draw relevant conclusions they´d have to find a way for people to play the same way they do currently (ie same costs and dmg/reductions) without cp enabled. That would yield results.

I don´t have high hopes for your doctor thesis - unless it´s in gender studies but than why bring it up as it´s obviously irrelevant.

Of course its not, u arent a dumb guy derra , come on.

How u wanna controller how I am playing? Ur asdumption is -> less sustain - less spam. Fine. What if -> less sustain -> stack more regen -> same spam.

Variables are on ur side, u can controll them. U just cant controll how much the players will spam or not, u can try to put them into one field, but there are (eapecially in this game) always ways to compensate that.

Data like CP are variables, u just put them off or on. This is a variable. How u wanna put game style off or on? Okay got me, habe 10h maintenance

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Still not convinced. I guarentee that I will be able to create a setup with WAY more sustain than my current on the CP campaign and Im pretty sure both of u can do. The sacrifice in DMG is obvious, but thats about.

I dont give trash on derra, i like him, i just dont think hes (and you) are on the right track. I dont See how u wanna create the same playing field in this game, ur solution wont work either derra and its very simple.

E.g. I use atronach + regen drinks, u are mage + max food. U can do what u want, but as long as I am as a player has the choice to choose betweem different setups/styles u can not controll me - thats my whole point. There is no way u can controll me unless u have 5 skills, 1 set, 1 mundus and 1 drink/food and we obvious dont have that.

The problem is: Most people won´t go through the effort of adapting their build for one week.
That means those people (most likely the large silent majority) will skew your results.

When that´s a real possibility you have a test that can yield no conclusive result apart from a total failure. That is not a good test.

Also you´re having your whole argument backwards. You can´t control what the player does. True.
But that´s exactly why you have to present them with a test where they don´t have to change anything.
If the players in the first place have to change something to receive comparable results on their end (ie same sustain) your test is bad.
I have no idea how you can´t understand that.

You can´t control the player directly. Thats why you have to controll the environment so the player does not notice a change he might be inclined to react on.
That´s an absolutely basic approach to problem solving tbh.

You don't know what people will and won't do first of all. It is pure speculation on your part. I can turn and say I believe that many people will adapt for the time. For one they will earn more ap during double ap. It is also a chance to try something new and less current meta. Point is both sides is a imply speculation. Bottom line is people will want to pvp more so now then before if for nothing more than ap. This stress tests the servers.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Gear and builds is not what is being tested here. It is the CP system that is being tested. It is all of those passive and perks from the CP tree that cause all the extra calculation that are being tested. So yes taking them out to see performance is a solid way to go. The fact that people don't want to adapt to the change for whatever reason is irrelevant for purposes of this test.

That said, it is not hard to make some tweaks to your build for the week. Changing glyphs and mundus stone to sustain goes a long way. Crafted gear such as seduced and eternal hunt are easy to get and viable options that will take no time at all. People will also realize how much more balanced heavy armor is without cp.

Skinzz

I rather play in conplete lag like how it is now than play in a no cp campaign. CP just makes different builds more interesting.

pema

So all those nerfs, slowly killing stamina pve play, were no good and had no base. Please stop linking chnages from pve and pvp.

Ron_Burgundy_79

@ZOS_RichLambert Will this change affect dueling?

Chrlynsch

bubbygink wrote: »

Glad they are doing some testing to improve performance, I can always get behind that. But man, 14.4k AP for taking keeps (assuming you're using the 20% blessing of war passive and it still works during this period) is some crazy overkill. 3.6k AP for resources. That would mean PvDooring a keep and taking its resources would be over 25k AP alone. Over 25k AP for flipping a single keep and its resources without having to do a shred of PvP. Yikes.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Perhaps consider only doubling AP for kills and not for keep/resource capture.

Only issue is a lot of other people will see this, and be looking to get the sexy 50k dtick from wiping said pvdoorers.

Take example the double tel var event in IC population grew massive, zergs cleared the streets, bombers snatched hordes of ap/tv. Flags were massive spots.

I can see hordes of pvers out in mass leveling alts Alliance War for vigor and proxy. I may be wrong, there could be no pvdoor during peak time, this could be a good thing.

Etaniel

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

Holy crap, I really never write such things, but this nonsense..

Im.currently writing a doctor thesis and if they change 1 variable it is scientific. All you do is assuming that there are 2, but there arent. Changing the CP is 1 change, the less skill spam is a result of that, non a variable.

Furthermore there will still be 1 min big zerg spam fights, if theres better performance u even have the answer. People could even play with more regen - so no change in playstyle. Variables are controllable and playstyle ist none holy ***.

So stop this *** just cuz ur build wont work that 1 week and your "game without CP is no fünf" term. Maxybe it isnt for you, but maybe it is for others, u thought about that ? Lawl PLZ stop that.

Ofc player behavior is a variable in this case (as it changes with no CP because players will be unable to play the same way they would if there were cp).
Their problem is that one variable is dependant on the other in their system.

If they can not distinguish between:
a) less lag because of different player behavior
b) less lag because of no cp calculations

Their only solution is to permanently disable CP. Or change CP calculations and hope that fixes lag (with the real risk of player behavior being the deciding factor for lag and wasting work on a change with no effect - thiswould not be a risk if it wasn´t a variable - but it is).

To draw relevant conclusions they´d have to find a way for people to play the same way they do currently (ie same costs and dmg/reductions) without cp enabled. That would yield results.

I don´t have high hopes for your doctor thesis - unless it´s in gender studies but than why bring it up as it´s obviously irrelevant.

Of course its not, u arent a dumb guy derra , come on.

How u wanna controller how I am playing? Ur asdumption is -> less sustain - less spam. Fine. What if -> less sustain -> stack more regen -> same spam.

Variables are on ur side, u can controll them. U just cant controll how much the players will spam or not, u can try to put them into one field, but there are (eapecially in this game) always ways to compensate that.

Data like CP are variables, u just put them off or on. This is a variable. How u wanna put game style off or on? Okay got me, habe 10h maintenance

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Still not convinced. I guarentee that I will be able to create a setup with WAY more sustain than my current on the CP campaign and Im pretty sure both of u can do. The sacrifice in DMG is obvious, but thats about.

I dont give trash on derra, i like him, i just dont think hes (and you) are on the right track. I dont See how u wanna create the same playing field in this game, ur solution wont work either derra and its very simple.

E.g. I use atronach + regen drinks, u are mage + max food. U can do what u want, but as long as I am as a player has the choice to choose betweem different setups/styles u can not controll me - thats my whole point. There is no way u can controll me unless u have 5 skills, 1 set, 1 mundus and 1 drink/food and we obvious dont have that.

The problem is: Most people won´t go through the effort of adapting their build for one week.
That means those people (most likely the large silent majority) will skew your results.

When that´s a real possibility you have a test that can yield no conclusive result apart from a total failure. That is not a good test.

Also you´re having your whole argument backwards. You can´t control what the player does. True.
But that´s exactly why you have to present them with a test where they don´t have to change anything.
If the players in the first place have to change something to receive comparable results on their end (ie same sustain) your test is bad.
I have no idea how you can´t understand that.

You can´t control the player directly. Thats why you have to controll the environment so the player does not notice a change he might be inclined to react on.
That´s an absolutely basic approach to problem solving tbh.

You don't know what people will and won't do first of all. It is pure speculation on your part. I can turn and say I believe that many people will adapt for the time. For one they will earn more ap during double ap. It is also a chance to try something new and less current meta. Point is both sides is a imply speculation. Bottom line is people will want to pvp more so now then before if for nothing more than ap. This stress tests the servers.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Gear and builds is not what is being tested here. It is the CP system that is being tested. It is all of those passive and perks from the CP tree that cause all the extra calculation that are being tested. So yes taking them out to see performance is a solid way to go. The fact that people don't want to adapt to the change for whatever reason is irrelevant for purposes of this test.

That said, it is not hard to make some tweaks to your build for the week. Changing glyphs and mundus stone to sustain goes a long way. Crafted gear such as seduced and eternal hunt are easy to get and viable options that will take no time at all. People will also realize how much more balanced heavy armor is without cp.

You read nothing that Derra wrote did you?
You can't control players, is the exact reason why this test is bound to fail from the start.
When you remove CP, you force players to change their playstyles, so there will be no way to know if there is less lag because of different player behaviour, or because of less CP calculations.

The only way to truly test the effect of CP calculations is to make sure players have the same stats so that they play the same way they usually do.

Ishammael

Etaniel wrote: »

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Derra is 100% correct to point out that aggregate player behavior will likely change. I don't particularly care about his "my build will have to change" argument mainly because builds change with every patch.

However, I don't agree with his assumption that, upon "positive" test results (aka less lag at primetime), ZOS will simply remove CP without any other changes. Here's the deal: if removal of CP can dramatically improve server performance, regardless of whether causality is player behavior or calculations (I suspect both), then we need to do it and fully support ZOS in that decision -- the game will be better for it.

Of course, removal of CP would need to be accompanied with DRAMATIC skill, passive, class, and mechanic re-balancing. CP removal in a vacuum would be horrible.

bowmanz607

Etaniel wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

Holy crap, I really never write such things, but this nonsense..

Im.currently writing a doctor thesis and if they change 1 variable it is scientific. All you do is assuming that there are 2, but there arent. Changing the CP is 1 change, the less skill spam is a result of that, non a variable.

Furthermore there will still be 1 min big zerg spam fights, if theres better performance u even have the answer. People could even play with more regen - so no change in playstyle. Variables are controllable and playstyle ist none holy ***.

So stop this *** just cuz ur build wont work that 1 week and your "game without CP is no fünf" term. Maxybe it isnt for you, but maybe it is for others, u thought about that ? Lawl PLZ stop that.

Ofc player behavior is a variable in this case (as it changes with no CP because players will be unable to play the same way they would if there were cp).
Their problem is that one variable is dependant on the other in their system.

If they can not distinguish between:
a) less lag because of different player behavior
b) less lag because of no cp calculations

Their only solution is to permanently disable CP. Or change CP calculations and hope that fixes lag (with the real risk of player behavior being the deciding factor for lag and wasting work on a change with no effect - thiswould not be a risk if it wasn´t a variable - but it is).

To draw relevant conclusions they´d have to find a way for people to play the same way they do currently (ie same costs and dmg/reductions) without cp enabled. That would yield results.

I don´t have high hopes for your doctor thesis - unless it´s in gender studies but than why bring it up as it´s obviously irrelevant.

Of course its not, u arent a dumb guy derra , come on.

How u wanna controller how I am playing? Ur asdumption is -> less sustain - less spam. Fine. What if -> less sustain -> stack more regen -> same spam.

Variables are on ur side, u can controll them. U just cant controll how much the players will spam or not, u can try to put them into one field, but there are (eapecially in this game) always ways to compensate that.

Data like CP are variables, u just put them off or on. This is a variable. How u wanna put game style off or on? Okay got me, habe 10h maintenance

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Still not convinced. I guarentee that I will be able to create a setup with WAY more sustain than my current on the CP campaign and Im pretty sure both of u can do. The sacrifice in DMG is obvious, but thats about.

I dont give trash on derra, i like him, i just dont think hes (and you) are on the right track. I dont See how u wanna create the same playing field in this game, ur solution wont work either derra and its very simple.

E.g. I use atronach + regen drinks, u are mage + max food. U can do what u want, but as long as I am as a player has the choice to choose betweem different setups/styles u can not controll me - thats my whole point. There is no way u can controll me unless u have 5 skills, 1 set, 1 mundus and 1 drink/food and we obvious dont have that.

The problem is: Most people won´t go through the effort of adapting their build for one week.
That means those people (most likely the large silent majority) will skew your results.

When that´s a real possibility you have a test that can yield no conclusive result apart from a total failure. That is not a good test.

Also you´re having your whole argument backwards. You can´t control what the player does. True.
But that´s exactly why you have to present them with a test where they don´t have to change anything.
If the players in the first place have to change something to receive comparable results on their end (ie same sustain) your test is bad.
I have no idea how you can´t understand that.

You can´t control the player directly. Thats why you have to controll the environment so the player does not notice a change he might be inclined to react on.
That´s an absolutely basic approach to problem solving tbh.

You don't know what people will and won't do first of all. It is pure speculation on your part. I can turn and say I believe that many people will adapt for the time. For one they will earn more ap during double ap. It is also a chance to try something new and less current meta. Point is both sides is a imply speculation. Bottom line is people will want to pvp more so now then before if for nothing more than ap. This stress tests the servers.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Gear and builds is not what is being tested here. It is the CP system that is being tested. It is all of those passive and perks from the CP tree that cause all the extra calculation that are being tested. So yes taking them out to see performance is a solid way to go. The fact that people don't want to adapt to the change for whatever reason is irrelevant for purposes of this test.

That said, it is not hard to make some tweaks to your build for the week. Changing glyphs and mundus stone to sustain goes a long way. Crafted gear such as seduced and eternal hunt are easy to get and viable options that will take no time at all. People will also realize how much more balanced heavy armor is without cp.

You read nothing that Derra wrote did you?
You can't control players, is the exact reason why this test is bound to fail from the start.
When you remove CP, you force players to change their playstyles, so there will be no way to know if there is less lag because of different player behaviour, or because of less CP calculations.

The only way to truly test the effect of CP calculations is to make sure players have the same stats so that they play the same way they usually do.

Wrong. You change playstyle sure. But theven focus is not on playstyle is it. The focus is on the calculations the server needs to make from cp. No matter your playstyle you utilize cp and calculations are made on server. With no cp people still are free to change playstyle, but their are no cp calculations to be made.

We ar3 not testing players here. We are testing how a system works when it has to make all of these extra calculations and how it works when it does not have to make all those extra calculations.

leepalmer95

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

Holy crap, I really never write such things, but this nonsense..

Im.currently writing a doctor thesis and if they change 1 variable it is scientific. All you do is assuming that there are 2, but there arent. Changing the CP is 1 change, the less skill spam is a result of that, non a variable.

Furthermore there will still be 1 min big zerg spam fights, if theres better performance u even have the answer. People could even play with more regen - so no change in playstyle. Variables are controllable and playstyle ist none holy ***.

So stop this *** just cuz ur build wont work that 1 week and your "game without CP is no fünf" term. Maxybe it isnt for you, but maybe it is for others, u thought about that ? Lawl PLZ stop that.

Ofc player behavior is a variable in this case (as it changes with no CP because players will be unable to play the same way they would if there were cp).
Their problem is that one variable is dependant on the other in their system.

If they can not distinguish between:
a) less lag because of different player behavior
b) less lag because of no cp calculations

Their only solution is to permanently disable CP. Or change CP calculations and hope that fixes lag (with the real risk of player behavior being the deciding factor for lag and wasting work on a change with no effect - thiswould not be a risk if it wasn´t a variable - but it is).

To draw relevant conclusions they´d have to find a way for people to play the same way they do currently (ie same costs and dmg/reductions) without cp enabled. That would yield results.

I don´t have high hopes for your doctor thesis - unless it´s in gender studies but than why bring it up as it´s obviously irrelevant.

Of course its not, u arent a dumb guy derra , come on.

How u wanna controller how I am playing? Ur asdumption is -> less sustain - less spam. Fine. What if -> less sustain -> stack more regen -> same spam.

Variables are on ur side, u can controll them. U just cant controll how much the players will spam or not, u can try to put them into one field, but there are (eapecially in this game) always ways to compensate that.

Data like CP are variables, u just put them off or on. This is a variable. How u wanna put game style off or on? Okay got me, habe 10h maintenance

You can't achieve CP sustain on non CP campaigns.
I don't understand why people are giving Derra so much sh** when he points out the huge gapping flaw of this test.

As other people have proposed, they should change battle spirit to make up for the removal of CP, just for that week. That way we indeed get to test the change of ONE variable, CP calculations, while keeping the same player behaviour.

Still not convinced. I guarentee that I will be able to create a setup with WAY more sustain than my current on the CP campaign and Im pretty sure both of u can do. The sacrifice in DMG is obvious, but thats about.

I dont give trash on derra, i like him, i just dont think hes (and you) are on the right track. I dont See how u wanna create the same playing field in this game, ur solution wont work either derra and its very simple.

E.g. I use atronach + regen drinks, u are mage + max food. U can do what u want, but as long as I am as a player has the choice to choose betweem different setups/styles u can not controll me - thats my whole point. There is no way u can controll me unless u have 5 skills, 1 set, 1 mundus and 1 drink/food and we obvious dont have that.

The problem is: Most people won´t go through the effort of adapting their build for one week.
That means those people (most likely the large silent majority) will skew your results.

When that´s a real possibility you have a test that can yield no conclusive result apart from a total failure. That is not a good test.

Also you´re having your whole argument backwards. You can´t control what the player does. True.
But that´s exactly why you have to present them with a test where they don´t have to change anything.
If the players in the first place have to change something to receive comparable results on their end (ie same sustain) your test is bad.
I have no idea how you can´t understand that.

You can´t control the player directly. Thats why you have to controll the environment so the player does not notice a change he might be inclined to react on.
That´s an absolutely basic approach to problem solving tbh.

You don't know what people will and won't do first of all. It is pure speculation on your part. I can turn and say I believe that many people will adapt for the time. For one they will earn more ap during double ap. It is also a chance to try something new and less current meta. Point is both sides is a imply speculation. Bottom line is people will want to pvp more so now then before if for nothing more than ap. This stress tests the servers.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Gear and builds is not what is being tested here. It is the CP system that is being tested. It is all of those passive and perks from the CP tree that cause all the extra calculation that are being tested. So yes taking them out to see performance is a solid way to go. The fact that people don't want to adapt to the change for whatever reason is irrelevant for purposes of this test.

That said, it is not hard to make some tweaks to your build for the week. Changing glyphs and mundus stone to sustain goes a long way. Crafted gear such as seduced and eternal hunt are easy to get and viable options that will take no time at all. People will also realize how much more balanced heavy armor is without cp.

You read nothing that Derra wrote did you?
You can't control players, is the exact reason why this test is bound to fail from the start.
When you remove CP, you force players to change their playstyles, so there will be no way to know if there is less lag because of different player behaviour, or because of less CP calculations.

The only way to truly test the effect of CP calculations is to make sure players have the same stats so that they play the same way they usually do.

Wrong. You change playstyle sure. But theven focus is not on playstyle is it. The focus is on the calculations the server needs to make from cp. No matter your playstyle you utilize cp and calculations are made on server. With no cp people still are free to change playstyle, but their are no cp calculations to be made.

We ar3 not testing players here. We are testing how a system works when it has to make all of these extra calculations and how it works when it does not have to make all those extra calculations.

Cp = more sustain = higher dmg setups that spam big skills more.

Non cp = less sustain = less spam.

Kobiwan_shinobi

Just get rid of CP or cap it to 160 nobody likes it anyway. The only people who actualy like CP are the ones at Max.

Az all the way