Let's clear the air on why people are angry

sadownik · February 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nefaras wrote: »

The World of Warcraft arguement is so weak.

WoW Addons Legion Expansion :
- new max lvl 110
- new class demon hunter
- new feature artifact weapon
- 5 new areas ! (new continent)
- order hall (personal story for all classes)
- 9 new dungeon !

And than blizz release content fast as hell, 1 month after release harder dungeon modes (mythic + ) first raid tier 2 month after release , 2nd raid tier was last month. + Balance fast.

For 45 Bucks....for all additional content after this 45 bucks no more paying needed.

What does ZOS do?

Morrowind Expansion:
-New Continent (30hrs story)
-PvP Battlegrounds (4vs4vs4)
-New class (Warden)
-New Trial

They charge 40 Bucks ...and all that will happen after will cost additional because its DLC ..... Battlegrounds should be in the base game and nothing else.

Uhm, correct me if im wrong but arent wow expasion once a year with little to nothing in between them?

If so the comparison wouldnt hold at all without mentioning ofc the small detail of the p2p model..

You are wrong.

Nefaras · February 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nefaras wrote: »

The World of Warcraft arguement is so weak.

WoW Addons Legion Expansion :
- new max lvl 110
- new class demon hunter
- new feature artifact weapon
- 5 new areas ! (new continent)
- order hall (personal story for all classes)
- 9 new dungeon !

And than blizz release content fast as hell, 1 month after release harder dungeon modes (mythic + ) first raid tier 2 month after release , 2nd raid tier was last month. + Balance fast.

For 45 Bucks....for all additional content after this 45 bucks no more paying needed.

What does ZOS do?

Morrowind Expansion:
-New Continent (30hrs story)
-PvP Battlegrounds (4vs4vs4)
-New class (Warden)
-New Trial

They charge 40 Bucks ...and all that will happen after will cost additional because its DLC ..... Battlegrounds should be in the base game and nothing else.

Uhm, correct me if im wrong but arent wow expasion once a year with little to nothing in between them?

If so the comparison wouldnt hold at all without mentioning ofc the difference of bussines models..

Yeah you are wrong in the warlords of draenor time (last expannsion) they have clearly done some *** with content taking to much time. But other than that with every expansion you will for sure get new dungeons, raids , gear , lvl increase (with ne talents etc.) , sometime new class.

the difference of bussines model is the next thing. A full price expansion is not a thing for a free 2 play game like eso. If they would split morrowind in a story dlc, pvp dlc and the new class and would charge extra (eso+ geht the content for free) the people would not hate as much even if the whole price at the end was more lets say 15 bucks for pvp , 15 for the class and 25 for the story. But it would be more accurate to their bussines model. Cause bigger content than patches cost money for free 2 play players

Evergnar · February 2017

I'll be dropping my sub this month since this is how Zos wants to play this game. I did however actually preorder Morrowind. At this point I don't care wtf they do just so long as I know how they want to play this little game of theirs. I can play right along with it.

I've lost a lot of interest in ESO not just because of their business model (if you can call it that) but the lack of focus on the actual gameplay itself. Hopefully Morrowind will bring some worthwhile content to a game that is desperate need of it but that is still 6 months away. In the meantime they can pull whatever shenanigans they want....and they will.

Draqone · February 2017

Osteos wrote: »

Or... most forum posters aren't happy unless they are miserable. Or as my dad who served in the Navy would say bitching sailors are happy sailors.

As long as they care enough to *** they care enough to not quit. It's when no one cares and the forums are dead that the game starts to die as well.

esotoon wrote: »

Other MMOs have Expansion Packs for sure, but they seem to offer changes that affect the whole of the game, and add playable content far more in excess than what is being offered here.

Probably new best in slot gear, a new region and a new class. Seems like a definition of a standard MMO expansion to me.

tunepunk · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

Unfurnished Manor = 10.000 crowns approx 70€
Morrowind expansion = 40€

They must have spent a lot more development time and manpower on that manor than the new expansion? right?

EgyptRaider · February 2017

As someone who comes from GW2 and would never consider getting ESO+, I still express all the support for eso+ payers who feel cheated!

For one, the expansion of Morrowind isn't that much more than a DLC twice the size of a normal DLC. Even Heart of Thorns (the first GW2 expansion) had much, much more to offer than this.

Second, the idea of new expansions DLC is a very good and understandable model. GW2 has nailed it in my opinion and ESO's model is getting close to it (don't get me started on some of the overpriced stuff like the new houses or the 6000C motif). However, there is one big difference between GW2 and ESO handling these models. GW2 does not have a VIP arrangement. ESO does. And we all can be honest here. People who subscribe are -barely- getting their money's worth. If you want to play this game as economically efficient as possible no-one would subscribe. The bonuses simply don't add up to $15 a month, especially considering the content draught ESO has suffered the last half a year (One Tamriel and Homestead are free updates, not new gated content).

I think that everyone can agree that ESO+ members are partly doing this out of love for the game and loyalty to the developers. I respect them, for keeping up an MMO isn't easy and loyal members like that certainly keep it possible. That a company wants to earn money is a given. No-one should blame them for it. However, to do it over the backs of their most loyal costumers isn't only an act of greed. It will turn out counterproductive for sure. Every ESO+ member gives more money to this game than B2P folks like me. If you want to keep attracting them (or at the least letting them stay) actions like this are destructive.

Think of this; Morrowind will certainly add content that will keep us occupied for at least a month or 3/4 plus add a lot of replayable content. I, as a simple B2P player, will only pay once for it. $40 dollars. After 2,5 of playing the game I have almost already outlived the subscription costs, yet I still have permanent access. ESO+, for every month Morrowind is able to occupy them, will give you another $15.

I sincerely hope ZOS will reconsider. You can't expect costumers to stay purely for the crowns when the crown store is inflating so much by the day.

DragonBound · February 2017

runagate wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Its just how human nature works, its easier to be hateful than lover-boy.

Watch this and tell me that ain't easier than being hateful.

https://youtu.be/zL8G5pBZ5CI?t=139

This is the human problem, they always want to take the easy way when the easy way is not always the correct way to make change, you do not need to be hateful but that does not mean things should not be immune to criticism or pointed out for wrong doing.

Anyways personally I do not have an issue with this mmorpgs in my experience have always charged for expansions and not for dlc, its quite a ways from now.

Jitterbug · February 2017

I would pay the full amount of IRL money for the access to PvP arenas alone :-P

letsdothedungeonslow · February 2017

Interestingly, clicking on either the Amazon or Bestbuy buttons in the official preorder page produces NO results that give you the ability to preorder. They couldn't even get their rip off attempt right!

jedtb16_ESO · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

i am not angry.

i do not feel cheated or disappointed or, indeed, any other pejorative adjective you care to use.

i have pre-ordered the digital ce upgrade.

i will continue to sub and to enjoy this great game and, come june 6th, there will be even more of it for me to enjoy.

Kalante · February 2017

i am glad ive only given them 15 dollars the past 8 months. The only way you can get me to drop those benjamins is if you actually fix the game.

Abeille · February 2017

After asking and reading some answers, now I understand why the outrage.

I understand, but I do not feel that way. I do not use the terms interchangeably, I actually was part of a discussion on the differences I perceive between DLC and EP a while ago in these forums. And I certainly never expected an EP to be included with the subscription, perhaps because almost all MMOs I played had paid Expansion Packs during the time I was playing them, sub or no sub. But I understand that having your expectations crushed and feeling betrayed is pretty bad (it is how the Crown Crates make me feel, after all).

My subscription never lapsed since release and I will continue to subscribe, though, since access to DLC is not the only reason I sub for and I didn't have the same expectations you had. I am absolutely ecstatic after yesterday's reveals and I am happily waiting for today's article.

Egonieser · February 2017

Well I knew this was coming and kind of prepared to fork out extra, as I believe (personally) it is worth it.

What does bug me though is that ZoS said that game will receive DLC's rather than expansions (I don't have anything against expansions, I love them, but it's about what ZoS SAID) and they will always be included with the subscription. Sure, they didn't explicitly say there won't be any expansions either, but they sure as hell emphasized DLC's and DLC model ever since the BoP change. Now the ball drops and we have moved to expansions, something they never mentioned, never said, contradicts to everything they said about their DLC approach.

I know nothing ZoS says can be taken at face value, but a little bit of extra information beforehand would go a long long way.
They should have stated before in clear and understandable terms that the game will consist of smaller DLC's which are included with Subs and Expansions which are seperate purchases - common and normal practice for MMO industry, nothing wrong with that, but the lack of communication IS a major problem. But up until now it's been "The game will receive smaller incremental DLC's in bite size chunks" Who was it that said that, Lambert or Firor, can't remember at this point...

pattyLtd · February 2017

I'm very confused to be honest.
It sounds like a big update (like orsinium size maybe) but this one comes on a new disc?

Is it like a different game to install?
Probably extremely stupid questions but i'll deal with it lol

Loc2262 · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They are interchangeable in the gaming industry, as a whole (which is why I linked an article from one of the largest mainstream gaming journals). You cannot assume that everyone who plays ESO is an MMO vet.

This.

ESO is my first and only MMO. I'm only playing it 'cause I love the Elder Scrolls series, not 'cause I love online gaming. So I trusted that the developer of a game from that series that I love is willing to do honest business with me.

Seems that trust was unwarranted.

essi2 · February 2017

To everyone in their Ivory Towers going "Ohohohohoh, I would never interchange the terms DLC and Expansion because I'VE played MMOs before"

1. Those other MMOs you played were(In the case of WoW still are) partying like it's 1999
2. ZOS never said anything about doing expansions, they said they would do 4 DLC per year(Actual number may vary)
3. The Video Games industry DOES use the terms interchangeably because the old Expansion Pack model does not make a single lick of sense in an all digital world!

esotoon · February 2017

pattyLtd wrote: »

I'm very confused to be honest.
It sounds like a big update (like orsinium size maybe) but this one comes on a new disc?

Is it like a different game to install?
Probably extremely stupid questions but i'll deal with it lol

It comes in two main ways. You can either buy it in a store, and it will come with the base game ("Elder Scrolls Unlimited") plus the new content called "Elder Scrolls Online: Morrowind".

Or, if you already own the base game, you can just by the digital upgrade version, that will give you access to the new content.

You can compare the different versions here:

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/preorder

(Scroll to botom of page)

pattyLtd · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

I'm very confused to be honest.
It sounds like a big update (like orsinium size maybe) but this one comes on a new disc?

Is it like a different game to install?
Probably extremely stupid questions but i'll deal with it lol

It comes in two main ways. You can either buy it in a store, and it will come with the base game ("Elder Scrolls Unlimited") plus the new content called "Elder Scrolls Online: Morrowind".

Or, if you already own the base game, you can just by the digital upgrade version, that will give you access to the new content.

You can compare the different versions here:

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/preorder

(Scroll to botom of page)

Thank you!

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

sevomd69 wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from, but.... I am a subscriber... and I have never interchanged the terms DLC and expansion... but that may be biased by the fact that I have previously played many MMO's...

^ This.

I understand the difference between a DLC and an Expansion.
An Expansion usually adds a large content area to the game, usually also adding a new class, new faction or some form a new mechanic.
A DLC is "filler" that happens between Expansions to extend their life and give Devs a chance to refine the next Expansion.

Expansions are nearly always paid for content, and DLC are "patches" that come free with the purchase price of the Expansion in question.

I understand that ESO+ includes access to future DLC.

I fully expected Morrowind to be a paid-for Expansion and NOT a DLC.

I am currently an ESO+ Member, I fully intend to remain so until Morrowind; I don't feel cheated or in anyway salty, and I am happy to pay for either the Upgrade or Collector's Upgrade.

All The Best

Khaos_Bane · February 2017

Very well said by the OP. Developers deserve money for the development, but this was done in a very sneaky way by ZoS. I will buy the DLC but it sure does change my opinion of their company.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2017

"Let's clear the air on why people are angry"

People are angry mostly on 2 things:

1 Eso + that don't give them access to new DLC (because ZOS cleverly called it expansion which btw. when downloaded digitally is the same thing as DLC).

2 Warden class being "cut out" from the game launch - many people would probably pick this class for their main characters (even if it would be underperforming - but still picked from purely play style and RPG reasons)

^ thus if they will want to pick this class for main character , with no class change token being in game they will have to unlock every achievement, skill point skyshard, skill line motive, title (and the list goes on) again (to be honest it will take 1 year to do so) - create a second main character

Overall I am happy to see the new content finally appear and I almost can't wait to revisit old places form TES III Morrowind

Peekachu99 · February 2017

With any and every subscription MMORPG, Expansion packs have rarely if ever been included in the price of the base service.

I'm assuming ESO is baby's first MMORPG for some of you; for the rest of us we're familiar with online subscriptive services. FFXIV is getting Stormblood, for example, and that's extra $ on top of a sub. Likewise WoW's Legion wasn't free, though you could still play all the other expacs you'd bought. Now, the amount of content ZoS will be offering in this "expansion" is certainly up for debate and scrutiny. But the amount remains to be seen.

Riejael · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

ESO Plus Member Here.

If these people are getting fussy, they can get over it or quit. I didn't hear them fuss in 2004 in EQ2 which had BOTH DLCs and Expansions. DLCs went free with All Access just like here. But you had to BUY the expansions, regardless of membership status.

Expansions are NOT simple DLCs. This is basically an addition to the game (or should be, we have yet to see the actual scope) that equals the base game. That would mean a continent sized area with multiple zones. We also get a new class, another hallmark of MMO expansions.

$180 a year pales in comparison to the $4,000 an Everquest player may have spent over 18 years (of pretty much required sub to do current content) and 23 expansions.

esotoon · February 2017

Riejael wrote: »

Expansions are NOT simple DLCs. This is basically an addition to the game (or should be, we have yet to see the actual scope) that equals the base game. That would mean a continent sized area with multiple zones. We also get a new class, another hallmark of MMO expansions.

It has content equivalent to about 3 or 4 previous DLCs, no where near equal to the base game.

Cronopoly · February 2017

We all can have our own opinions but not our own facts.

DLC = "Down Loadable Content" in the case of all MMO's has always included the main reference to a NEW AREA to explore that's provided to the base game expecially when the goto method for users was to download it from the Internet.

That Zos decided to play loose and free with the terminology in their pledge for Subscribers money and change the rules after it has suited them very well for the last 2 years, when it supported their lifestyle, houses and Beemers. They are not confused, and this is simply a cash grab.

Who has been paying for their continued upkeep of the game, paying for Crown store B.S. but a large contingent of 2+ year Subscribers.

Thieves Guild, Orsinium, Dark Brotherhood, were all "Expansion's" to the main game and as well DLC's to get them to your computer. By ZOS new rules they would have not been considered DLC as well.

Ultimately this was a calculated decision knowing that most are addicted to the game and will comply regardless of this shady tactic as there are not alot of choices out there MMO wise. So the boot will be stronger on your neck.

Good luck with your choices. Forget everyone else's opinion. Do what you care to.

Khaos_Bane · February 2017

IS ZoS going to call everything an expansion now ?

UrbanMonk · February 2017

I'm not longer giving any more sub money if i've to buy the future |DLC| er.. Expansions. Cancelled sub on both on my acc.

AdamBourke · February 2017

For those who are arguing the definition of "Downloadable Content" and "Expansion Pack", wikipedia basically defines them as the same thing - although Expansion Pack can cover board games as well.

Still not satisfied? Lets consider some other Zenimax Games.

Oblivion had the "Knights of the Nine" and "Shivering Isles" expansions.
Skyrim had the Dawnguard, Hearthfire and Dragonborn DLCs.

What is the difference? Dragonborn was the same size/amount of content as Shivering Isles. Dawnguard was bigger than Knights of the Nine.

But it's an mmorpg...

Really? because Zenimax keeps trying to tell us that it's not a traditional MMO - it's more like an RPG that's online...

sadownik · February 2017

Peekachu99 wrote: »

With any and every subscription MMORPG, Expansion packs have rarely if ever been included in the price of the base service.

I'm assuming ESO is baby's first MMORPG for some of you; for the rest of us we're familiar with online subscriptive services. FFXIV is getting Stormblood, for example, and that's extra $ on top of a sub. Likewise WoW's Legion wasn't free, though you could still play all the other expacs you'd bought. Now, the amount of content ZoS will be offering in this "expansion" is certainly up for debate and scrutiny. But the amount remains to be seen.

You very conviniently forgot not only the scope of those expansions but also the fact that those games are p2p. Both of those games developers were very clear from the launch how expansion releases will work.

The above was also pretty clear to anyone i knew from beta. But since then the model changed. Game went b2p sub was optional and to lure players into paying for sub the main incentive was -you will get all downloadable content packs for free.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2015/01/21/your-guide-to-eso-plus-premium-membership

And since all expansions in MMOs are dlcs it most certainly also suggests that all future content will be available to players as long as they sub.

Furthermore since its second rebranding and as with previous one I and(and i dont think im alone here) see it as a very scummy maneuver misleading players the conclusion might be only one - ZOS is never to be trusted.

zaria · February 2017

Sigtric wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to by this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

I understand where you're coming from, but.... I am a subscriber... and I have never interchanged the terms DLC and expansion... but that may be biased by the fact that I have previously played many MMO's...

The terms are interchangeable in the gaming industry. Here is an article from Gamespot, announcing the Orsinium DLC as a new expansion (and calling it both terms in the actual article).

No that is an article by Gamespot... not the whole gaming industry... I have been playing MMO's for a long time now and I think if you ask people with extensive MMO experience, a good majority would not interchange the terms DLC and Expansion...

They are interchangeable in the gaming industry, as a whole. You cannot assume that everyone who plays ESO is an MMO vet.

Says who? All I saw was one article...

It seems pretty common to me, among most games, smaller content drops are DLC and larger ones are expansions.

Since they are similar in nature it is easy to spin things to help validate the entitlement

Think standard is Expansion= physical disc, dlc is download only.
It has been an move from expansion to dlc as physical discs are more expensive to make and sell. Releasing many smaller updates also keep an game alive more than an huge update after over a year.