Is The Player Base Really This Split?

Riejael

Violynne wrote: »

Sadly, I'm one of these people. I desperately want to learn, but remember this is a two-way street: there are more "elitists" out there who simply don't want to take the time to teach. They're on a mission to acquire gear and rewards. Nothing wrong with that, but the gap is atypical of a development method like an MMO.

I'm truly glad you're trying to help, but those who reach the top often forget what it was like when they first stepped into the game, including you.

I'm not bashing your post or your position, but take a moment and try reading it as though you're completely new to the game. It should give you an insight on the bigger issue, not the small scope you've experienced.

I'm currently developing a new character, a sorc with DW secondary. Trying to balance out the style of play I've yearned for since launch hasn't been easy. So far, I've dropped every point into magicka, and quickly learn how poorly my stamina backup is when my magicka runs out (or I'm silenced).

How to change this? I have no clue. I can't truly learn from the game AI, because going after world bosses (now buffed since OT was released) clearly shows I'm no where near ready to take them on solo anymore. Practice only goes so far.

This leaves me only one option left to "get gud" and that's PvP or grouping. Now I find myself a burden, not a teacher. Unless I'm grouped with others who are as clumsy as I am, there's really no easy way to "L2P".

I work 2 jobs, so getting together in a group isn't easy. Nor is it to find those who are willing to sacrifice a few (okay, many) soul gems to run dungeons and learn how to play.

I'd love to learn how to build my sorc DW character. Believe me, any advice will be taken with great appreciation. But a "build" and playing the build are completely different things.

The best I can hope for is having a 561 watching my/our back as we go through a dungeon trying to learn to play.

Instead, I'd be luck if I see a 561 in a low group setting.

Again, this isn't a rant or complaint, it's just the natural "separation" these types of games and situations always create.

For me, it completely sucks to feel like this with no understanding of how to get past it.

Just because someone doesn't take the time to teach you, doesn't make them an elitist. Like you these players have multiple jobs, kids, wives, all those responsibilities. They either have a natural talent, a better grasp, or more experience. But like you, they have a limited time to play, so they make the most of it. That is the majority of players, you're not a minority.

Having a job is an excuse, not a reason for not knowing the game. You've had enough time to buy and download the game. And enough time to understand that there are different builds. That means you've got time to browse the net. There's a multitude of players who have delved into the game's mechanics and posted their results. Hell some of them make a living doing it through stream/youtube monetization.

So search it up. Chances are a build you are trying to obtain has been done before, or at least something close to what you're trying to do. 561 is a crutch. I've came back to the game in November after being gone a while. I had like 40CP when I came back from being a certain VR when I left. One level 50 character and one level 12. I picked up the level 12 and I'm now 200. I've also been working up other characters in the mean time.

So saying you need a CP 561 to teach you isn't even correct. On some of my newer characters I've given advice to players in dungeons on how to defeat some of the bosses. Bosses I just learned how to kill like 2 months ago (or in the situation at the time, the day before).

When players run a dungeon. There are Four of them. Each one brings some set of tools to the group. Each one plays a role. Each one is personally responsible to do their best and not cause a failure to 3 other players. That responsibility is knowing what you're bringing. Knowing what you need to do, and equipping yourself appropriately for the task at hand.

Of course all of that is within reason. If its a normal dungeon I expect players to ask how a boss goes. I've no issue giving a quick run down. I don't even care if someone is in quest greens they're there to upgrade to blues (not everyone has access to crafting or the mats). Though make sure the few greens and such you are using pertain to the role and build you are going for. I mean its pretty simple, and here's some free advice:

Heavy for tanking w/ one hand and shield.
Medium for weapon damage/stamina w/ non-staffweapons
Light for spell damage and healing/magicka w/ staves

That's not a hardset of rules, but its a good basis. Here's a guide that includes what you can do while leveling (as most guides simply include the 'end of leveling build') that stamina based dual wielding sorcerer build you're looking for: http://deltiasgaming.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-dps-build/

Does a decent job explaining where and why to use those skills. Its not perfect and may not be the best out there, but it will get you started.

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. There is a chance you may not simply be able to 'get the game' as I've described earlier in the thread. There's nothing wrong with that. Some have the talent and can pick up this stuff, some can't. If you try a build out and just can't get it to work and then another and another and the problem is simply execution. There might be no amount of practice that can help.

I've got a friend who is like that. They play the game to have fun and RP in. They simply just don't have the ability to do a group dungeon. Isn't gonna happen. They MIGHT be able to Wayrest Sewers or Fungal Grove I, but that's about it and maybe with a few deaths. They know they are a burden. They don't blame the game for it. They don't blame the lack of players helping them. They know their limitation and steer clear of dungeons for that reason. They simply don't wish to be a burden on others.

There's nothing wrong with that. And I can tell you you're not missing alot of the game. There's plenty of easily doable at your skill capability (if this turns out to be the case) content in the game. You've got your monies worth on that alone thankfully.

Ch4mpTW

Violynne wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now I understand the complaint threads I see everywhere about 'casuals' who don't understand the game.

Sadly, I'm one of these people. I desperately want to learn, but remember this is a two-way street: there are more "elitists" out there who simply don't want to take the time to teach. They're on a mission to acquire gear and rewards. Nothing wrong with that, but the gap is atypical of a development method like an MMO.

I'm truly glad you're trying to help, but those who reach the top often forget what it was like when they first stepped into the game, including you.

I'm not bashing your post or your position, but take a moment and try reading it as though you're completely new to the game. It should give you an insight on the bigger issue, not the small scope you've experienced.

I'm currently developing a new character, a sorc with DW secondary. Trying to balance out the style of play I've yearned for since launch hasn't been easy. So far, I've dropped every point into magicka, and quickly learn how poorly my stamina backup is when my magicka runs out (or I'm silenced).

How to change this? I have no clue. I can't truly learn from the game AI, because going after world bosses (now buffed since OT was released) clearly shows I'm no where near ready to take them on solo anymore. Practice only goes so far.

This leaves me only one option left to "get gud" and that's PvP or grouping. Now I find myself a burden, not a teacher. Unless I'm grouped with others who are as clumsy as I am, there's really no easy way to "L2P".

I work 2 jobs, so getting together in a group isn't easy. Nor is it to find those who are willing to sacrifice a few (okay, many) soul gems to run dungeons and learn how to play.

I'd love to learn how to build my sorc DW character. Believe me, any advice will be taken with great appreciation. But a "build" and playing the build are completely different things.

The best I can hope for is having a 561 watching my/our back as we go through a dungeon trying to learn to play.

Instead, I'd be luck if I see a 561 in a low group setting.

Again, this isn't a rant or complaint, it's just the natural "separation" these types of games and situations always create.

For me, it completely sucks to feel like this with no understanding of how to get past it.

I "got gud" by simply using Google, and doing tons upon tons of research of what worked and what didn't. For the longest time, I had no idea about how to distribute champion points and attributes. And the differences in gear trait variations for PvP and PvE. But, I used Google to research. I then tested constantly for myself, and through trial and error learned right from 'wrong'.

For example, I used to run a 2H in PvE regularly with my stamina characters. With my bow on my back bar. However, I learned that isn't the way to go about doing things. At least if I wanted to get the most out of doing damage in a PvE environment. And then I read about the benefits of using DW instead. So, I converted and was amazed at the success I had. Figured the pros outweighed the cons, and stuck with it ever since. It wasn't a matter of doing it, because it was the "meta". It was about doing it, because mathematically it made sense. Plus, my personal experiences with it were overwhelmingly positive.

karma69

Grunim wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

How do you know they are an experienced DD? Perhaps they have only healed or played tanks and maybe this is their very first dungeon in this role on this character?

Having high CP does not make someone experienced in playing a specific class or role. Nor does it mean they necessarily have prior experience in doing that sort of game content.

Having a high CP, such as the CP700+ nightblade that was spamming Assassins Blade on a boss with 100% health, means that you've been in the game long enough to have seen other people do certain things that conform to the way a piece of content should be played. And I'm sorry but it's a case of reading an ability, a CP700+ DD, inexperienced or not, has the ability to read a skill tool tip that says '... Deals 300% more damage to enemies lower than 25% health'.

If you're new to a class you don't just blindly pick and mix skills out of the hat! You actually spend some time reading them and realise which situations an ability is best suited to.

Even so, forgetting my arguments, I told this DD that spamming Assassins Blade on the boss at full health is doing nothing to him and he should use other abilities to which I didn't get any response and the DD carried on using his precious Assassins Blade.

Ch4mpTW

karma69 wrote: »

Grunim wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

How do you know they are an experienced DD? Perhaps they have only healed or played tanks and maybe this is their very first dungeon in this role on this character?

Having high CP does not make someone experienced in playing a specific class or role. Nor does it mean they necessarily have prior experience in doing that sort of game content.

Having a high CP, such as the CP700+ nightblade that was spamming Assassins Blade on a boss with 100% health, means that you've been in the game long enough to have seen other people do certain things that conform to the way a piece of content should be played. And I'm sorry but it's a case of reading an ability, a CP700+ DD, inexperienced or not, has the ability to read a skill tool tip that says '... Deals 300% more damage to enemies lower than 25% health'.

If you're new to a class you don't just blindly pick and mix skills out of the hat! You actually spend some time reading them and realise which situations an ability is best suited to.

Even so, forgetting my arguments, I told this DD that spamming Assassins Blade on the boss at full health is doing nothing to him and he should use other abilities to which I didn't get any response and the DD carried on using his precious Assassins Blade.

Agreed. I agree 110%. There's really no excuse for it.

SolarCat02

starkerealm wrote: »

Grunim wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

How do you know they are an experienced DD? Perhaps they have only healed or played tanks and maybe this is their very first dungeon in this role on this character?

Having high CP does not make someone experienced in playing a specific class or role. Nor does it mean they necessarily have prior experience in doing that sort of game content.

To be fair, DPS is the one role that everyone has experience with. Unless you literally run everything in a group with someone else, you're going to have some basic experience with this as you level. It's possible they did pick up their CR on different character, but for them to be spamming an execute? Eh... I'm going with, "no," something weird's going on here. It's possible that someone handed their controller to their kid, but, that's about the most legitimate option I can think of.

I beg to differ. You get xp for doing almost anything in this game, including turning in writs and discovering new locations. You also get experience when grouped with others, or when getting in at least one hit on an enemy. Dolmens are also a great source of xp, and they are swamped right now. Same with group dungeons and other delves. Add to this, overland fighting is much easier than dungeons.

As a result, in dungeons you meet a great many people who don't really understand what their character is actually capable of accomplishing, and they have some really odd builds. Add in the super high dps builds available in the game right now, and you end up with people unaware that they are being carried, and convinced it is the other dps' fault when things don't go as smoothly.

For example. Today in Veteran Fungal Grotto II a guildmate and I queued as tank and healer and got two dps who were mostly familiar with the mechanics (so had clearly done this dungeon before) but otherwise inept. The one in chat was very proud of his "AoE stamsorc" build, which involved alternating between Endless Hail and Steel Tornado, even during boss fights. "I get so much damage with this, so excited I came up with it!" The dps not in chat was a shield stacking magicka sorcerer who refused to move out of red, and relied on illambris, the storm atronach ultimate, and fire staff heavy attacks. Both were CP561.

I have seen high CP people with double bow "magicka" builds, pet sorcerers centered around using Hircine's, a stamina dragonknight using magicka morphs of AoEs "because stamina is good for single target but magicka has better AoEs", stamina builds in all heavy and magicka builds in medium "because I like to sneak a lot", and all sorts of crazy builds. They are having fun with their character, and enjoying questing, and there is nothing wrong with that! If they want to learn to be effective in dungeons I will happily help them. If they just want to use their Skyrim style RP build for questing, I let them be.

But you can't judge someone's skill by their CP number and assume it's someone else playing if they seem less competent than the number next to their character, any more than you can tell the experience of the person playing that level 10 that just challenged you to a duel. CP just shows time, not skill.

GawdSB

There are two sides to eso. These guys and the *** with inflated egos because they're higher lvl. I dislike both and avoid at all cost.

Ch4mpTW

SolarCat02 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Grunim wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

How do you know they are an experienced DD? Perhaps they have only healed or played tanks and maybe this is their very first dungeon in this role on this character?

Having high CP does not make someone experienced in playing a specific class or role. Nor does it mean they necessarily have prior experience in doing that sort of game content.

To be fair, DPS is the one role that everyone has experience with. Unless you literally run everything in a group with someone else, you're going to have some basic experience with this as you level. It's possible they did pick up their CR on different character, but for them to be spamming an execute? Eh... I'm going with, "no," something weird's going on here. It's possible that someone handed their controller to their kid, but, that's about the most legitimate option I can think of.

I beg to differ. You get xp for doing almost anything in this game, including turning in writs and discovering new locations. You also get experience when grouped with others, or when getting in at least one hit on an enemy. Dolmens are also a great source of xp, and they are swamped right now. Same with group dungeons and other delves. Add to this, overland fighting is much easier than dungeons.

As a result, in dungeons you meet a great many people who don't really understand what their character is actually capable of accomplishing, and they have some really odd builds. Add in the super high dps builds available in the game right now, and you end up with people unaware that they are being carried, and convinced it is the other dps' fault when things don't go as smoothly.

For example. Today in Veteran Fungal Grotto II a guildmate and I queued as tank and healer and got two dps who were mostly familiar with the mechanics (so had clearly done this dungeon before) but otherwise inept. The one in chat was very proud of his "AoE stamsorc" build, which involved alternating between Endless Hail and Steel Tornado, even during boss fights. "I get so much damage with this, so excited I came up with it!" The dps not in chat was a shield stacking magicka sorcerer who refused to move out of red, and relied on illambris, the storm atronach ultimate, and fire staff heavy attacks. Both were CP561.

I have seen high CP people with double bow "magicka" builds, pet sorcerers centered around using Hircine's, a stamina dragonknight using magicka morphs of AoEs "because stamina is good for single target but magicka has better AoEs", stamina builds in all heavy and magicka builds in medium "because I like to sneak a lot", and all sorts of crazy builds. They are having fun with their character, and enjoying questing, and there is nothing wrong with that! If they want to learn to be effective in dungeons I will happily help them. If they just want to use their Skyrim style RP build for questing, I let them be.

But you can't judge someone's skill by their CP number and assume it's someone else playing if they seem less competent than the number next to their character, any more than you can tell the experience of the person playing that level 10 that just challenged you to a duel. CP just shows time, not skill.

I agree with you, based on how you worded things. However, I again have to ask why people refuse to change if they're shown that they're doing things poorly. And especially when provided with a thorough and mathematical explanation why. It's as though people form these obscure builds, or claim that their favorite stream or pro utilizes it. And then swears out that it's bulletproof and can do no wrong.

Horowonnoe

GawdSB wrote: »

There are two sides to eso. These guys and the *** with inflated egos because they're higher lvl. I dislike both and avoid at all cost.

Level has nothing to do with skill or how good the player is. You can get to max cp by just questing, or killing mudcrabs. I hear some people grind up to max lvl in coldharbour starting zone... so...

: /

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO So I'm assuming you know exactly what I'm talking about, and have seen the bs that I described in my story for yourself. It's really starting to trip me out, as I've been paying closer attention to things occurring more often. And what I'm observing is very strange, and often times than not false information being spread.

In spite of reading your original post several times, I'm afraid no, I don't really know what you're talking about. You seem to be surprised that people listen to false information and think it's true, but on the other hand, you require that they listen to correct information and learn from it. How are people supposed to differentiate between true and false info ?

I read in this thread many requirements that people should "do their homework", i.e. read tutorials, watch videos, etc. Aren't those people the ones who'll also complain about "cookie cutter builds" or about people who copy/paste something from the internet without giving it further thought ?

On one hand you seem very judgemental at people who don't "play well", who don't "know the game" and who "haven't studied the internet about the game", but on the other hand, you also judge people for believing and following what they hear or read. That sounds contradictory to me.

In my opinion there are 4 major issues here :

- The game's abilities and attributes/CP/set combos are far too complicated.
- The removal of soft caps in 1.6 make the playerbase split between 4K DPS up to 50K+ DPS, making it impossible for players to randomly play together and have fun
- The competitive and judgemental state of mind of too many players, lacking general sympathy, tolerance and adaptation to others.
- The players' general focus on builds and individual performance instead of group play and dungeon mechanics and strategies.

Digiman

Don't blame the players blame the game?

I am sorry but you said this is just one group you have encountered and you don't group with other people? Your not experienced enough to judge the entire playerbase on an obvious rare outlier?

Anyway the point is that ESO really sucks at making tier progression and scaling the difficulty to an appropriate level. They need to address the fact that PuGs aren't that organized and build from there and not for premade groups as a base.

Cronopoly

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So I'm in Auridon, and heading toward the stable to do my mount upgrade for the day. And I get invited to join a group from a random. I accept, and get asked if I'll help with Veteran Imperial City Prison. I say that I'll help, but this was prior to looking at the group composition (mind you I'm on my StamDK). And then the dialogue occurs that is just flat-out disturbing.

Snipped rest of True story we've all lived lol. . .

We know exactly why this is occurring daily. And it's in Zos best interest $ wise to have it setup this way and let god figure it out upon death of the pug groups. "1Tamriel and Battle levelling everyones" so that level 10 - 115's think they have what it takes to do Vet content...Psst no one told them otherwise, and they trust ZOS.

AFAIK there's no dialogue in the game for all the new players to tell them about the problems of having low CP, IE low Hardy, Elemental Defender, No resource mgmt regens to speak of, and absolutely no Spell or Physical Penetration dooming any hope of decent DPS making the one 561cp have to carry the group in Trash very painfully.

I did the same on my 561cp Templar healer. In some random dungeon, one of the sub 50cp guys (Bow main) ran forward on the 1st trash pull and hit Endless Hail before the tank moved forward, and he got gibbed before I could cast the first BoL heal.

He went from 100% to 0 in an instant. I ROFL, before I started crying. The tank was over 160+cp but must have been dyslexic and read the optimal spec wrong. I think he was 5L, 1M, 1H. He was taking 85% - 90% damage every second on trash. I halted the group and told them this would not work. I was doing constant BOL to keep the entire group alive every second and that was before we got to the 1st boss. That's when I checked to see they had it set on Vet ><.

I didn't give up on them. they wanted to see how far we "I" could go. It was of courtse painful and of course me being masochistic, I explained all boss mechanics to them and basically brute force healed 100% BOL, and Resto Ulti our way to the final boss. I then told them under no circumstance was anyone to read any scroll after a certain point....Next thing you know the screen went white...#$^!

/press on my brothers.

Loc2262

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It's as though ESO is split into those who what to do, and those who are clueless and refuse to accept knowledge on what is correct. Basically intentional ignorance and incompetence.

You're not alone with this experience.

The other day I was healing Elden Hollow 2 (normal). I noticed one DD's health going down rapidly a few times, checked, he had 12.5k health. I did what I usually do and ask them (CP 140ish) if they forgot their buff food. They said no, and linked their "buff food" in group chat. Turned out to be white single-stat "magicka regen" drink.

I thought, okay, with 140 CP he should have some better idea about what he's doing, but still politely suggested that for the next dungeon he get blue max health+max magicka food. He said, no, magicka regen is better.

I figured, okay, this is just an easy normal dungeon, let's complete it and not make a fuss about it. After the end boss, I tried to explain that he should get max magicka food to increase his damage output, and max health to have at least 16k to avoid those 12-14k hits that bosses do even in normal dungeons.

He then replied that I'm wrong, that he has skills that reduce the boss' damage, and that he's been doing vet dungeons with 10k health.

At that point, I withdrew from the discussion and figured he'll have to make his own experience if he doesn't want to listen to advice.

Draxys

Zenimax's mantra of "play the way you want" and their need to look out for the casual gamer population (the large majority of their paying customers) has created these scenarios. The casual single player gamer has gotten so used to playing in any they wish, that in order to be effective at end game, they would have to lock themselves into a certain setup/playstyle. And many of those players don't understand the need to do so, and thus don't understand basic efficiency in roles, even less actually being good. It's entirely on ZOS, and I don't expect anything to change.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Draxys wrote: »

And many of those players don't understand the need to do so, and thus don't understand basic efficiency in roles, even less actually being good. It's entirely on ZOS, and I don't expect anything to change.

What I don't understand is the need for players to be good (or better said : the expectation of players that other players should be good) when 95% of the game doesn't require the players or the groups to actually be good.
Of course for extra requirements like "4 DDs no tank no healer" you actually need a good group, but you don't need to be good nor your group to be good to complete most dungeons, even on vet. This constant assessment of other players' capacity is very tiresome.

Knowledge of dungeons mechanics seems far more important to me - and good players are actually responsible for those mechanics to be widely unknown, because of their ability to bypass them by burning the mobs.

Example : the daedroth boss in vCoA2. Most groups think it requires very high DPS because if you don't burn it quick enough you'll be overwhelmed by adds. Whereas in reality, if you cannot burn it fast, the thing to do is to damage it slowly in a controlled manner, because the waves of adds don't spawn on a timer, but according to the daedroth's health bar. In my experience, very few players know this and therefore needlessly put high expectations on group members, and even kick them for what they think is insufficient DPS.

Draxys

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

And many of those players don't understand the need to do so, and thus don't understand basic efficiency in roles, even less actually being good. It's entirely on ZOS, and I don't expect anything to change.

What I don't understand is the need for players to be good (or better said : the expectation of players that other players should be good) when 95% of the game doesn't require the players or the groups to actually be good.
Of course for extra requirements like "4 DDs no tank no healer" you actually need a good group, but you don't need to be good nor your group to be good to complete most dungeons, even on vet. This constant assessment of other players' capacity is very tiresome.

Knowledge of dungeons mechanics seems far more important to me - and good players are actually responsible for those mechanics to be widely unknown, because of their ability to bypass them by burning the mobs.

Example : the daedroth boss in vCoA2. Most groups think it requires very high DPS because if you don't burn it quick enough you'll be overwhelmed by adds. Whereas in reality, if you cannot burn it fast, the thing to do is to damage it slowly in a controlled manner, because the waves of adds don't spawn on a timer, but according to the daedroth's health bar. In my experience, very few players know this and therefore needlessly put high expectations on group members, and even kick them for what they think is insufficient DPS.

I completely agree with the fact that understanding how to play a role well is not needed for the majority of the game. But I was under the impression that this thread was aimed at what would be considered "end-game", so I do think the scenario calls for players to at least be competent.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Draxys wrote: »

I completely agree with the fact that understanding how to play a role well is not needed for the majority of the game. But I was under the impression that this thread was aimed at what would be considered "end-game", so I do think the scenario calls for players to at least be competent.

Sure, but how do you get competent ? By playing !
I understand that OP is surprised by what he saw and heard in the group he mentioned. What I understand less is the need to make a judgemental forum thread about it. Obviously those players were newbies who believed a couple of false rumours. So what ? Let them try their "4 DD's VICP with inefficient builds" and they'll soon enough learn that it doesn't work. Let them play, let them try, let them experience, let them wipe. Let them learn !!

It reminds me of the first time I went skiing - I was probably 7 or 8 years old. I was so excited about it that I didn't listen to anything anyone told me and ended up rushing (then falling) down the hill at the speed of light, totally scared, without knowing how to turn or to slow down. I had learned my lesson !

Also (back to ESO) I believe it's not right to expect from people to "study" tutorials and videos on the internet. I don't want to play a game where I have to do homework outside the game. Learning while playing is fun, learning outside the game isn't. I agree though that the game doesn't provide enough learning content and tools.

Isellskooma

DigitalShibby wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

healers aren't really needed nowadays for any content.

Lol

You literally just need them for trials, anyone good enough can 2 man dungeons with out a healer.

Theosis

Tandor wrote: »

There's a reason people don't do PUGs any more, and there's a reason people solo. Too much hassle to do otherwise these days - as well of course as there being a lot less tolerance for those who don't fully understand what they are doing.

no need to say more

Zvorgin

Theosis wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

There's a reason people don't do PUGs any more, and there's a reason people solo. Too much hassle to do otherwise these days - as well of course as there being a lot less tolerance for those who don't fully understand what they are doing.

no need to say more

This is true. On PS4 with text chat being so cumbersome, most PuGs have 0 communications going on (most people refuse to use their mic if they have it). I'll just stick to solo'ing dungeons on normal, offers a challenge and going slower is worthwhile to avoid the headaches of a PuG.

Kas

Totally agree with you, vCoA2 has been solo'd ages ago (and ofc still is at 160Cp scaling). vICP has been solo'd as well (though that's a lot harder imho, and quite an achievment. Imbomez is not exactly solo friendly.)

I don't really understand where players like this come from since I meet them a lot less in other games (probably open world vs matchmaking mechanics is key). I don't mean that there are no noob / fresh starters, etc. But due to twitch, youtube and several forums it seems that at least everyone is super-informed of what's possible / done by experienced players (most of the time some people watched popular streamers even before buying/installing a game.... except in ESO, that is.

Biro123

Really, they just need to add some kind of difficulty rating/guide for dungeons - and ways to easily queue for specific 'sets' dungeons - also with 'popup warnings' when queueing for something that could be a bit tricky...

Certainly when I started doing dungeons (which was after 1T), I had no idea at all that some were a LOT easier than others - and apart from a handful, still couldn't tell you which are the easier/harder ones - nor rank them in order of difficulty... I mean, I'd rank some vet dungeons as being easier than some normal - that's gotta be really confusing for newer players.

So really, instead of queuing for simply normal or vet, perhaps they should give each dung. a difficulty ranking from 1-10 (so perhaps a normal version of fungal1 may be difficulty 1, vet may be difficuly 4. Normal WGT, may be diff 5 etc..) and let people queue based on a difficulty range. They should also perhaps have guidance as to what kind of groups it would be the 'right' level of difficulty for. (eg, 1-2 = any old group, 2-3 = balanced group, 4-5 = balanced cp160 group, 6-7 = balanced cp300... etc. up to optimised 561+)
Perhaps is may mean that people will start only queing for the easy ones - and once they've been successful start queuing for higher difficulty's till they either find their limit or adapt their builds etc. to move on up. you'd also see less people dropping as soon as they see its WGT, for example.

kylewwefan

It's split because so much bad information is put out there by very skilled players.

You know how many people I know in game that solo Vet dungeons. Like none.

There's some guy that beat Vet Maelstrom on a StamBlade in 30 minutes got a score of 600k+ Should that mean anyone can? On PS4 trophys it shows only 3% of all players have even beaten vet maelstrom....

Because skilled and competent groups can complete hard content with 4 DPS doesn't mean every group will.

I just helped a CP 300+ pet sorc find out how to bar swap by equipping another staff. Yes you know what that means.

Also a lot comes down to gear. Legendary gear. Especially weapons. theres a huge jump in damage from legendary weapons that very few players have.

Kodrac

I try to help people in guild chat before they get to a dungeon or even after they've run one and had a bad experience, but it's an uphill battle. There are those that ask questions and want to learn, but for every one that asks there's tens or hundreds that don't. And then there's the ones that think they're pros and give awful, awful advice. For the most part I like to respect other's playstyle, but in some cases it's hard to keep my mouth shut. I don't want to be an elitist but gtfo with that stuff.

I always tell people to learn the meta. It's then up to you what you want to do with it. You don't have to be a pro, you just have to know how stuff works. When I'm on my own I could care less, but I know the meta and follow it so that when I'm in group content with others I'm not a total *** up. I can't always do it because of time or gold restraints so I understand when people aren't on top of their game, so to speak, but when it's out of sheer ignorance... ugh, here we go... Do I bother to explain things (again) or just quit while I'm ahead?

Jamini

Victoria_Marquis wrote: »

We miss the fellowship of the Holy Trinity, tank, healer, dps ......

...support, debuffer, controller, pet master, off-tank, and threat-manager.


I miss the days of 6-man leveling parties. Nowadays everyone is a DD and it's so boring...

AlwaysOnFire

I always play with one other partner and sometime we'd really love to do more vet stuff, do WGT, ICP etc. but every time the risk of weird demands on us becomes way more daunting than the actual dungeons. (maybe the Undaunted should drink to that.)

We mostly run duo together and have planned our bars/buffs/debuffs to compliment each others and those around us, but we still worry that others won't see it as "enough."

i can't help but feel at least some of the people dismissed as "casuals" often really are people who've devoted significant time and thought to their own builds but merely aren't there to compliment a louder, more pushy player's style and that kind of player will get angry that others aren't plugins to their own player character rather than teammates that they too have to coordinate with.

(and like, yeah of course there will always be scrubby people who aren't prepared, but why complain about an inevitability? The minor inconvenience of a few minutes of wasted time isnt really worth it.)

Hawco10

Similar experience last night. Took a break from Cyordil and made myself available as a healer in a random group for blessed crucible. Straight after joining, the two dps left due to the tank being level 57. Talk about helping people out, that was shameful. So I rounded up a couple of guildies from Cyrodil and we whisked the 57 guy right through it.
Is this the new normal? So what if the player is low level. That's like kicking all the low level players from pvp groups and leaving them to flounder on their own. Dissaponting to see that behavior from the dungeon community tbh.

Doctordarkspawn

Hawco10 wrote: »

Similar experience last night. Took a break from Cyordil and made myself available as a healer in a random group for blessed crucible. Straight after joining, the two dps left due to the tank being level 57. Talk about helping people out, that was shameful. So I rounded up a couple of guildies from Cyrodil and we whisked the 57 guy right through it.
Is this the new normal? So what if the player is low level. That's like kicking all the low level players from pvp groups and leaving them to flounder on their own. Dissaponting to see that behavior from the dungeon community tbh.

And it's everywhere.

And yet the forum warriors want this game to be HARDER HARDER HARDER.

Ugh, playerbase is this games worse enemy.

Rickter

I havent cleared VMA.

But I've only attempted one time. got to absolute final boss, round 9, 5 hours.. . . . playing as a magicka DK WITHOUT healing ward.

so im sure i can smash it if i gave a more concerted effort.

with that being said - im getting really sick and tired of hearing about this "just dps it" mentality about dungeons. Im pretty sure newcomers are coming into the game feeling this way because they watch too much twitch or youtube.

Ive 2 manned City of Ash 2. i was a magicka DK tank with magma shell and warhorn, the other was a stam templar. But im going to say right now, that was a one off thing and that other player was in the top 1% of dps players in the game. In other words - it should by no means be any kind of benchmark or expectation of the typical player base. The dude just wanted to kill time.

ICP takes team work and coordination. The final boss is ALL mechanics. its an annoying fight for pros, and down right near impossible for novices.

Ive played with people in top end PVE end game guilds and never once have i heard someone say "oh yeah vICP is so easy, man lets just go in there for fun!" - not one.

Jeremy

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So I'm in Auridon, and heading toward the stable to do my mount upgrade for the day. And I get invited to join a group from a random. I accept, and get asked if I'll help with Veteran Imperial City Prison. I say that I'll help, but this was prior to looking at the group composition (mind you I'm on my StamDK). And then the dialogue occurs that is just flat-out disturbing.

The host then says how he needed a group of people to help him beat it, as a month-old pledge he had which he wanted completion for. And how he was thankful that the 3 of us agreed to help. 1 of the other damage dealers then proceeded to ask why the host wanted to do VICP, as that was the second hardest content in ESO to date. With Veteran City of Ash 2 being the absolute hardest dungeon in the game. I thought they were joking, and asked them to quit trolling. And was immediately snapped on by the DPS who made this claim stating how only a handful of people have beaten it. Confused, I go and check the levels and see that I'm the highest CP person in the group (561), with the others having: 77, 112, and 12...

I then ask them why they were aware of the group composition, and was then told how the pros do dungeons with all damage dealers and how healers aren't really needed nowadays for any content. Nor tanks. And how VICP and VCoA2 were DPS races. After hearing that, I say that I'm going to drop group and proceeded with telling the people in that group, "Good luck."

WTF? Why? Just... Why? Where are these players coming from that think like this? I don't understand. I really don't. Granted I hardly group-up with people I don't know to begin with, but figured since it's a Saturday afternoon I'd be polite. And try to help some random get some stuff done, being as I'm a max-CP rank StamDK DPS in BIS gear. But, no way was going to even try to be bothered with that. All 4 of us were damage dealers (I used DW and bow), 2 of the damage dealers used double bows, and the last DPS had DW swords and greatsword.

Now I understand the complaint threads I see everywhere about 'casuals' who don't understand the game. I'm far from an elitist, and have tons of posts of defending the casual player-base, but no. Just... No. It's as though ESO is split into those who what to do, and those who are clueless and refuse to accept knowledge on what is correct. Basically intentional ignorance and incompetence. I'm all for helping those who make an effort to get better and learn new things, but those who refuse and spew out incorrect information as though it's fact? And refuse to overlook their logic, with solid data and information? No way.

And thus, it makes sense as to why there are so little Maelstrom clears on normal difficult. And why there's even less an amount of people who've beaten veteran Maelstrom, even though the content has been out for months. . .

I was with you up until that last paragraph.

You play as a DPS - so maybe that is why you don't fully appreciate what makes Veteran Maelstrom Arena difficult for so many players. It is (despite what people may say on this forums) a gimmicky and solo DPS race and requires healers and possibly tanks (I can only speak for healers out of experience) to fundamentally alter their character in ways that would negatively affect their abilities to effectively heal in PvE group content. In other words - this is content that does not accommodate healers in any way. It's content made almost exclusively for DPS classes - which is B.S. in my humble opinion. But it is what it is.

So to use VMA as a guide as it relates to players ability to perofrm in group PvE content is a very bad idea as the two are nothing alike. Because I have successfully healed Veteran City of Ash II (to use your example) more times than I can count yet I can't even beat the first boss of VMA unless I completely overhaul my character and use different abilities, gear and strategies. In other words - it's comparing apples and oranges. Many players (myself included) just don't find it worthwhile to create an entirely different character build - especially considering I"m happy with my current one in all other content - just to spam this solo content that I don't find particularly enjoyable anyway.

Ch4mpTW

Jeremy wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So I'm in Auridon, and heading toward the stable to do my mount upgrade for the day. And I get invited to join a group from a random. I accept, and get asked if I'll help with Veteran Imperial City Prison. I say that I'll help, but this was prior to looking at the group composition (mind you I'm on my StamDK). And then the dialogue occurs that is just flat-out disturbing.

The host then says how he needed a group of people to help him beat it, as a month-old pledge he had which he wanted completion for. And how he was thankful that the 3 of us agreed to help. 1 of the other damage dealers then proceeded to ask why the host wanted to do VICP, as that was the second hardest content in ESO to date. With Veteran City of Ash 2 being the absolute hardest dungeon in the game. I thought they were joking, and asked them to quit trolling. And was immediately snapped on by the DPS who made this claim stating how only a handful of people have beaten it. Confused, I go and check the levels and see that I'm the highest CP person in the group (561), with the others having: 77, 112, and 12...

I then ask them why they were aware of the group composition, and was then told how the pros do dungeons with all damage dealers and how healers aren't really needed nowadays for any content. Nor tanks. And how VICP and VCoA2 were DPS races. After hearing that, I say that I'm going to drop group and proceeded with telling the people in that group, "Good luck."

WTF? Why? Just... Why? Where are these players coming from that think like this? I don't understand. I really don't. Granted I hardly group-up with people I don't know to begin with, but figured since it's a Saturday afternoon I'd be polite. And try to help some random get some stuff done, being as I'm a max-CP rank StamDK DPS in BIS gear. But, no way was going to even try to be bothered with that. All 4 of us were damage dealers (I used DW and bow), 2 of the damage dealers used double bows, and the last DPS had DW swords and greatsword.

Now I understand the complaint threads I see everywhere about 'casuals' who don't understand the game. I'm far from an elitist, and have tons of posts of defending the casual player-base, but no. Just... No. It's as though ESO is split into those who what to do, and those who are clueless and refuse to accept knowledge on what is correct. Basically intentional ignorance and incompetence. I'm all for helping those who make an effort to get better and learn new things, but those who refuse and spew out incorrect information as though it's fact? And refuse to overlook their logic, with solid data and information? No way.

And thus, it makes sense as to why there are so little Maelstrom clears on normal difficult. And why there's even less an amount of people who've beaten veteran Maelstrom, even though the content has been out for months. . .

I was with you up until that last paragraph.

You play as a DPS - so maybe that is why you don't fully appreciate what makes Veteran Maelstrom Arena difficult for so many players. It is (despite what people may say on this forums) a gimmicky and solo DPS race and requires healers and possibly tanks (I can only speak for healers out of experience) to fundamentally alter their character in ways that would negatively affect their abilities to effectively heal in PvE group content. In other words - this is content that does not accommodate healers in any way. It's content made almost exclusively for DPS classes - which is B.S. in my humble opinion. But it is what it is.

So to use VMA as a guide as it relates to players ability to perofrm in group PvE content is a very bad idea as the two are nothing alike. Because I have successfully healed Veteran City of Ash II (to use your example) more times than I can count yet I can't even beat the first boss of VMA unless I completely overhaul my character and use different abilities, gear and strategies. In other words - it's comparing apples and oranges. Many players (myself included) just don't find it worthwhile to create an entirely different character build - especially considering I"m happy with my current one in all other content - just to spam this solo content that I don't find particularly enjoyable anyway.

While I agree where you're coming from, I have a different view of VMA (to a degree). Completing VMA, and doing so hundreds of times has in a sense made me a better player I feel. Being in VMA taught me: Resource management, threat management, polished situational awareness, when to supply burst damage, etc. It was like a very rigorous training course. And obtaining Flawless was like pushing all my knowledge of: The arena, enemy types, my build, etc. to the max.

However! I do agree that it's very gimmicky, and more shifted toward a DPS race. But, it honestly does make you a better player in the end. And will by force teach you what you have no idea about in regards to your class, and what it is you may be attempting to build for.