Cadbury wrote: »

My point is that in the eyes of many modern game devs, it is better to tone down trouble areas and homogenize content. All in the name of "accessibility" to a wider audience.

I've noticed that Blizzard, after the first content patch of Legion decided to halt, very abruptly the 'accessibility' stance they started in modern MMOs. Their reasoning was pretty sound.. they wanted to make the game they believe they'd like to play. As you'd expect, a vocal portion of the community, and maybe not even a sizable section, had an adverse reaction.

Fortunately it appeared that they were not going to budge and continue to release harder content. At least that's what it seemed like in November. I haven't played since then so I can't comment if they've since caved to a vocal minority or not.

But it does set a nice precedent. If WoW can go 'hard', everyone can. A few months previously to that, Everquest did something similar. With their progression servers people wanted raids to be instanced (they are open world bosses that only one group, who scores the most damage, gets the loot when the boss dies), and the producer came out and said something along the lines of "We're not going to instance raids even if casuals want to, casuals shouldn't even be fighting raids."

You can imagine the backlash from that statement. Unfortunately they did cave with the next progression server and did instance the raid.. well.. sort of caved. They 10x the HP and doubled the damage and gave those bosses new harder mechanics. Which wasn't well received except by guilds who could do such content.

Anyway.. back to the original discussion..

I've been playing quite a few MMOs in the last ten years (prior to that it was just EQ and WoW), and I've noticed there are really only two types of players. Those who 'get it' and those who just don't have a clue. Granted those who do get how these games fundamentally work vary in skill and ability widly.. they are still heads and tails over those who simply don't grasp it.

In other games you'd have your keyboard turners and ability clickers. ESO prevents that, so you see peeps light attack or heavy attack spamming instead. And then they throw some abomination build together to cover what they think needs to be covered.

You'll get someone who gets wrecked in questing content so they throw on heavy armor. They do a little better and get wrecked again, so they offhand a resto staff. They're not a tank, and not a healer, but they've got plate, and they've got a resto staff.. and if they think they're clever... they've queued up for all three roles.

Yeah... They don't help my argument very much when I say lowbies are fine in any normal dungeon.

And you don't really want to kick them. I mean if its a I dungeon on normal, you can carry them. Maybe even in some DLC and II dungeons. But damn there comes a time and a place that they need tough love and need a kick in the pants.

But we all know unfortunately that unless someone builds their build for them. They're not going to change. I have a friend of mine that.. doesn't get it. They keyboard turned and mouse clicked abilities in EQ and WoW. They play ESO (god help us). But fortunately they will NOT step in a group dungeon. They'll RP, they'll do quests, and maybe a delve with a friend or two. They know that they're a liability, they know. They've known that for a while (though they weren't... too terrible in Kharazhan a few years ago, but I digress), and they steer clear from that stuff.

Not everyone who 'doesn't get it' does that however. I wish they would. But many are arrogant and thing they know what they are doing. And god damn.. a CP 700+ as someone said earlier? They've been playing this crap longer than I have. But like I said, some of us get it, some don't.

There's really nothing that can be done about it. If you use group finder, you're gonna get a chance of getting one. If you premade, there's a good chance you won't. But damn if you're recruiting PUGs.. you gotta watch it.

Its not just ESO though. I've seen it in WoW (not as much as you might think), EQ, EQ2, PS2 (MMOFPS), SWOTOR (way too common there), and FFXIV (though it cuts off after a certain point as they cannot progress that far). Its just games in general. The sad part is I've seen a RL friend fail at ESO (on the PS4 version). Apparently quest mobs kick the crap out of him. Now this doesn't make a lick of sense. He does well in other games. But apparently MMOs are a weakness for him. I've been steering him clear of PC... (sorry consolers.. he's your problem =P).

But to answer the title. Yes. The playerbase is split. I dunno how the percentage goes. I don't think its 50/50. From what I've seen just using group finder, its less than 20% that 'don't get it'. Not very much less, though. I'll get one every 2-3 dungeons. Sometimes I get unlucky and its 2 in the group. That's usually only once a week though.

As for what was said about zone chat. I don't understand that. I see it too. I usually don't talk there since it will likely get stupid. Between noobs and trolls, you're just going to get the wrong impression to go out to true newbies who need help. But take heart in the fact that those 'who get it' aren't going to listen to zone/general chat trolls. They'll go on the net and search for info and vids like the rest of us.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

When I tried to force myself to play DPS I got told repeatedly when trying to find support rolls that I didn't need them, to the point of people going out of their way to prevent me to group with tanks, insult me, and rally Zone against me because 'tanks aren't needed'

Hah, yeah Tanks are DEFINITELY needed, they're the ones that make the Dungeons go so much more smoothly, when they're actually drawing Aggro that is. Tanks and Healers both are necessary. Healer keeps the Tank alive, Tank keeps the Boss busy, which leaves the DPS free and dandy to wail on the Boss without worry.

If I knew how to build and play a Tank effectively I'd become one for Undaunted runs. The Game needs a lot more of them in the Finder so the DPS don't have to wait so long for groups.

For four man content? I think aside from DLC dungeons, they go much faster with 3 DPS and one healer.

*provided you're running with competent teamates. If the group is bad, then having a tank just makes the run more forgiving, but I don't think it optimizes it.

I'd say for a boss fight, yes it's great to have a tank to focus while everyone else burns, but it's really not necessary imo and the extra DPS player really speeds up the run as a whole.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »

I am sorry this confused me ...

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Just had another moment of some BS occurring not too long after writing this. Was informed how a MagDK DPS isn't supposed to use a restoration staff on their backbar, and how it automatically equates to horrible overall group DPS. This time from a guild member. WTF? Keep in mind that I did this, due to healers not keeping Elemental Drain up as they should. As well as MagDK's having issues with sustain. So now it's either double Destro/Destro or you're auto-noob and completely wrong in your setup. What?

You have a restoration staff set to your back bar to support yourself based on your experiences and needs for your build understandable and good that you did something positive to make it work in group then you did a 180 and said that healers should have elemental drain up...why is it ok for you to decide what abilities a player should have and get upset when someone tells you what weapons you should use?

Hm? You're mistaken. I slotted the restoration staff, after I noticed that there was no Elemental Drains being applied. And after multiple people complained about their resource issues (myself included). What made it right per say what I did? It made it right as a healer has FAR MORE on the line than a DPS. A tank and a healer are the stars of any group content. Trial or dungeon. More so the healer, because they make sure you stay in peak performance. If your healer dies, then things tend to get sloppy. Unless you can somehow pull off a recovery in an organized and timely fashion. Make sense?

So in knowing that as a healer what your job is, and how crucial you are to the group — you should know that something as critical as Elemental Drain should be active at all times. Right or wrong? Therefore adjustments like what I did would never even have to take place, let alone be up for a topic of debate.

But even then, where did it become bad per say for a DPS to run Destro/Resto if magicka-oriented? WHY is it mandatory to run Destro/Destro or DW/Destro, considering the amount of strain it puts on resources? It goes back to another topic and thread of how people have rings twisted in believing that as a DPS, you shouldn't use a restoration staff (if magicka-based).

Why do you need Resto for Elemental Drain, it's a Destro skill? You talking about Siphon Spirit?

I didn't use the resto for Elemental Drain. Lol. I used the resto, because of the amount of magicka I get back with heavy attacks from it and also the passive ability from it being a precise Maelstrom's Restoration Staff (Regeneration restores 481 Magicka to you when it critically heals a target. Can occur once every 4 seconds. Adds 688 Spell Critical).

Running Destro/Resto is easier on resources as a magicka DPS, than Destro/Destro, or DW/Destro. Even more so if Elemental Drain (a Destruction Staff skill) is applied in targets.

Sounds rather selfish. You could simply use Ele Drain in the slot you put Regen and did something for whole team. Who you said were all having sustain ussues. Without SPC which I wager you didn't swap to, Regen does little in the scheme of things for anyone but you. Using pots, even the cheap-o looted ones, Ele Drain and weaving in HA into your rotation would have done a better job.

If you wonder why people don't like Destro/Resto on Magicka DPS it's because they know the run-around nature of it. Time spent on Resto HA is a noticeable DPS lost, as is weaving with Resto. So while you might gain sustain, you've traded DPS for it which results in longer fights, and that creates more sustain issues.

... It's rather selfish of me? It's not my job to apply Elemental Drain. It's the healer's job. It would be my job if I were solo'ing, but was I solo'ing? No.

Rule #1 of magdk, run ele drain on your backbar, you have space for it and you need it, if the healer runs it awesome then you can drop it for FoO or something else

Metafae wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »

I am sorry this confused me ...

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Just had another moment of some BS occurring not too long after writing this. Was informed how a MagDK DPS isn't supposed to use a restoration staff on their backbar, and how it automatically equates to horrible overall group DPS. This time from a guild member. WTF? Keep in mind that I did this, due to healers not keeping Elemental Drain up as they should. As well as MagDK's having issues with sustain. So now it's either double Destro/Destro or you're auto-noob and completely wrong in your setup. What?

You have a restoration staff set to your back bar to support yourself based on your experiences and needs for your build understandable and good that you did something positive to make it work in group then you did a 180 and said that healers should have elemental drain up...why is it ok for you to decide what abilities a player should have and get upset when someone tells you what weapons you should use?

Hm? You're mistaken. I slotted the restoration staff, after I noticed that there was no Elemental Drains being applied. And after multiple people complained about their resource issues (myself included). What made it right per say what I did? It made it right as a healer has FAR MORE on the line than a DPS. A tank and a healer are the stars of any group content. Trial or dungeon. More so the healer, because they make sure you stay in peak performance. If your healer dies, then things tend to get sloppy. Unless you can somehow pull off a recovery in an organized and timely fashion. Make sense?

So in knowing that as a healer what your job is, and how crucial you are to the group — you should know that something as critical as Elemental Drain should be active at all times. Right or wrong? Therefore adjustments like what I did would never even have to take place, let alone be up for a topic of debate.

But even then, where did it become bad per say for a DPS to run Destro/Resto if magicka-oriented? WHY is it mandatory to run Destro/Destro or DW/Destro, considering the amount of strain it puts on resources? It goes back to another topic and thread of how people have rings twisted in believing that as a DPS, you shouldn't use a restoration staff (if magicka-based).

Why do you need Resto for Elemental Drain, it's a Destro skill? You talking about Siphon Spirit?

I didn't use the resto for Elemental Drain. Lol. I used the resto, because of the amount of magicka I get back with heavy attacks from it and also the passive ability from it being a precise Maelstrom's Restoration Staff (Regeneration restores 481 Magicka to you when it critically heals a target. Can occur once every 4 seconds. Adds 688 Spell Critical).

Running Destro/Resto is easier on resources as a magicka DPS, than Destro/Destro, or DW/Destro. Even more so if Elemental Drain (a Destruction Staff skill) is applied in targets.

Sounds rather selfish. You could simply use Ele Drain in the slot you put Regen and did something for whole team. Who you said were all having sustain ussues. Without SPC which I wager you didn't swap to, Regen does little in the scheme of things for anyone but you. Using pots, even the cheap-o looted ones, Ele Drain and weaving in HA into your rotation would have done a better job.

If you wonder why people don't like Destro/Resto on Magicka DPS it's because they know the run-around nature of it. Time spent on Resto HA is a noticeable DPS lost, as is weaving with Resto. So while you might gain sustain, you've traded DPS for it which results in longer fights, and that creates more sustain issues.

... It's rather selfish of me? It's not my job to apply Elemental Drain. It's the healer's job. It would be my job if I were solo'ing, but was I solo'ing? No.

M8, when I'm on my mDK and the healer says they haven't even morphed that skill (Yes, it happens a lot with pugs) I'll make sure to slot it myself on the back bar. Yes, I expect a healer to be able to run it for me, but when dealing with pugs you have to be realistic about this. Using a resto just doesn't make any sense. You've got some nerve to complain about ignorant people not willing to learn to play right and then do exactly what your complaining about in the same thread.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

i am all for teaching people how to beat dungeons, but more often then not, its usually a power differential that prevents dungeons from being done. i been farming lately for sword-dancer casue well i wanna try it out see how it compares with my other toons and thier dps. probably 40% of the final boss fights i have just given up trying to rez people because they are getting 1 shotted by boss mechanics. now i dont blame them, the tell is much too short for it to be dodged or block. but i also dont expect them to be able to drop 40 cp into the cp defensive either like i do. this means they would have to move some 20 or so attribute points into health which then significantly will lower thier dps. this is on top of the fact they need more regen then a max lvl toon, still will not have the sustainment of a max lvl toon. so sadly i think you will find most lowbies will not have means to reliably stay alive and those who can, will do at least 1/3rd less dps and i probably highballing thier dps.

ive had the same problems with sorcs saying the aoe frag morph is the best morph that it hits X hard.
also seeing stam sorcs using destro staff.
magicka builds using vigor.

(insert sarcastic voice hear) but don't worry guys next update we get frost tanks to help with all the people who group with randoms who don't listen when you try to help them and says its good it hits x hard .(make stupid face when ever they say its really good)

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now I understand the complaint threads I see everywhere about 'casuals' who don't understand the game.

Sadly, I'm one of these people. I desperately want to learn, but remember this is a two-way street: there are more "elitists" out there who simply don't want to take the time to teach. They're on a mission to acquire gear and rewards. Nothing wrong with that, but the gap is atypical of a development method like an MMO.

I'm truly glad you're trying to help, but those who reach the top often forget what it was like when they first stepped into the game, including you.

I'm not bashing your post or your position, but take a moment and try reading it as though you're completely new to the game. It should give you an insight on the bigger issue, not the small scope you've experienced.

I'm currently developing a new character, a sorc with DW secondary. Trying to balance out the style of play I've yearned for since launch hasn't been easy. So far, I've dropped every point into magicka, and quickly learn how poorly my stamina backup is when my magicka runs out (or I'm silenced).

How to change this? I have no clue. I can't truly learn from the game AI, because going after world bosses (now buffed since OT was released) clearly shows I'm no where near ready to take them on solo anymore. Practice only goes so far.

This leaves me only one option left to "get gud" and that's PvP or grouping. Now I find myself a burden, not a teacher. Unless I'm grouped with others who are as clumsy as I am, there's really no easy way to "L2P".

I work 2 jobs, so getting together in a group isn't easy. Nor is it to find those who are willing to sacrifice a few (okay, many) soul gems to run dungeons and learn how to play.

I'd love to learn how to build my sorc DW character. Believe me, any advice will be taken with great appreciation. But a "build" and playing the build are completely different things.

The best I can hope for is having a 561 watching my/our back as we go through a dungeon trying to learn to play.

Instead, I'd be luck if I see a 561 in a low group setting.

Again, this isn't a rant or complaint, it's just the natural "separation" these types of games and situations always create.

For me, it completely sucks to feel like this with no understanding of how to get past it.

Violynne wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now I understand the complaint threads I see everywhere about 'casuals' who don't understand the game.

Sadly, I'm one of these people. I desperately want to learn, but remember this is a two-way street: there are more "elitists" out there who simply don't want to take the time to teach. They're on a mission to acquire gear and rewards. Nothing wrong with that, but the gap is atypical of a development method like an MMO.

I'm truly glad you're trying to help, but those who reach the top often forget what it was like when they first stepped into the game, including you.

I'm not bashing your post or your position, but take a moment and try reading it as though you're completely new to the game. It should give you an insight on the bigger issue, not the small scope you've experienced.

I'm currently developing a new character, a sorc with DW secondary. Trying to balance out the style of play I've yearned for since launch hasn't been easy. So far, I've dropped every point into magicka, and quickly learn how poorly my stamina backup is when my magicka runs out (or I'm silenced).

How to change this? I have no clue. I can't truly learn from the game AI, because going after world bosses (now buffed since OT was released) clearly shows I'm no where near ready to take them on solo anymore. Practice only goes so far.

This leaves me only one option left to "get gud" and that's PvP or grouping. Now I find myself a burden, not a teacher. Unless I'm grouped with others who are as clumsy as I am, there's really no easy way to "L2P".

I work 2 jobs, so getting together in a group isn't easy. Nor is it to find those who are willing to sacrifice a few (okay, many) soul gems to run dungeons and learn how to play.

I'd love to learn how to build my sorc DW character. Believe me, any advice will be taken with great appreciation. But a "build" and playing the build are completely different things.

The best I can hope for is having a 561 watching my/our back as we go through a dungeon trying to learn to play.

Instead, I'd be luck if I see a 561 in a low group setting.

Again, this isn't a rant or complaint, it's just the natural "separation" these types of games and situations always create.

For me, it completely sucks to feel like this with no understanding of how to get past it.

Its simple go and watch a little youtube. Make a DPS build watch some videos on mechanics of dungeon your doing. some where around 300 cp the game just gets stupid easy. this is byfar the mosst solo centric DPS meta MMO ive ever played. about 90 days from now youll be asking yourself is this really it?. wear a helmet your gonna hit your head when you dive into the max CP end game.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

@karma69 It's wild, right? I've seen MagPlars use Radiant on enemies at full health in both PvE and PvP, and just shake my head. When I approach these people, and ask them where they got the logic of using an execute against a target at full health the responses are truly bizarre. Or the people in PvE running around with a 2H, and Uppercut spamming a boss in a dungeon or world-boss nonstop. I've seen that as well. Lol. They're not even self-buffing, throwing down DOT's, or any of that. Just Critical Charge, and proceed with letting the Uppercuts rip. It's crazy.

And to those who don't believe my claims, or any of the claims in this thread? Simply agree to help a random low-level out in a dungeon, or just que for dungeon. Or better yet, just wander about clearing dolmens and world-bosses. You will see exactly what we're talking about. People with double bow builds, and spamming light attacks. Using strange rotations and morphs. All that. And then questioned, will give you the most odd stories about why it is that they do what they do.

Yep definitely. I mean, I was the same back when I returned to the game from a long break (about a year ago). I was trying to grind my second nightblade character to VR16 in Old Orsinium. I was using two handed abilities to pull large mobs with a magicka nightblade (stupid I know, but I didn't know any better back then) and then I see some guys pulling countless amounts of mobs on their own and being able to two shot them while never dying and always made me think 'wtf, how did do they do that?'. I'd then proceed to get some advice from these people and from there on learn what works and what doesn't. Today's players just aren't willing to accept advice or help, and more importantly once you 'offend' someone for using builds/skills that don't work in PvE, communication from that player is non-existent anymore.

Where as I've noticed that today's pug groups I feel like just get offended when you tell them they are doing something wrong. I'm sorry but using two handed in PvE dungeons, trials etc and spamming Assassins Blade or Radiant on a boss that is 100% health is just wrong. Scrubby players must see these players that are able to take large groups of mobs and melt them down yet when these players offer advice to noobs the noobs just seem to either get offended or get hard headed and are determined to prove the player offering advice wrong just for their ego. It's a really bad trait and something a lot of newer/high CP players have been doing recently from what I've noticed that is just a huge annoyance and pure stupidity.

Tank whacks at enemies with two hander, does not taunt.
"Tank you need to taunt more of the trash mobs; they're focused way too much on me."
"Don't tell me how to tank!"
"Mate, we've all died multiple times because healer can't keep up with the damage dealt to me and the other dps. Your lack of taunt is killing us on trash mobs; I'm already using Vigor much more than I should."
"Haha *** dps QQ on trash mobs."

He was cp 100; I'm at cp 561 and in my end-game gear.

Defend casuals all you want; that person is one of the many reasons why I don't pug that much. If I'm offering constructive criticism, you don't just throw it back in my face. Git gud.

Grunim wrote: »

karma69 wrote: »

Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.

How do you know they are an experienced DD? Perhaps they have only healed or played tanks and maybe this is their very first dungeon in this role on this character?

Having high CP does not make someone experienced in playing a specific class or role. Nor does it mean they necessarily have prior experience in doing that sort of game content.

To be fair, DPS is the one role that everyone has experience with. Unless you literally run everything in a group with someone else, you're going to have some basic experience with this as you level. It's possible they did pick up their CR on different character, but for them to be spamming an execute? Eh... I'm going with, "no," something weird's going on here. It's possible that someone handed their controller to their kid, but, that's about the most legitimate option I can think of.

Something to consider:

There are different kinds of expectations players have in MMORPGs based on how much time they can commit to a game, what gear level they are at, how well they know the instanced group content of a game, how well they know their class/job/role, and how intense they are when it comes to completing content. Those with different expectations, who has a result approach the game differently, are regularly thrown together by an MMORPG group finder.

Those who have spent huge amounts of time in a game, have great gear, know every grouped instance by heart, and who are really intense about playing fast and efficient bemoan every mistake and non-optimal choice made by the random players they are thrown in with. Yet tweak one variable, to someone who is very relaxed in how they approach the game, and the player might chuckle and offer some friendly advice.

Similarly, a player who isn't as well informed but who makes a genuine effort will respond differently than someone who just wants to be carried. A particularly weird mix is the inept player who is very intense, the player who insults players who are better at the game while boasting of their own efforts.

The point is that there are many variables, so the trope of "elite vs scrub" is not just inaccurate but lazy and problematic. A player who doesn't respond or change something right away when criticized or corrected isn't necessarily lazy or stupid. That player may be shy, nervous, or confused. It can also be hard for some people to accept unsolicited criticism from a stranger.

At the same time, not everyone who offers suggestions or directions is a smug, condescending min-maxer. In some cases, they simply have a perspective another player may lack due to greater experience. That experienced player may sound impatient or demanding, but it doesn't mean they aren't telling you something important about a mechanic or a skill.

the first trash mob is a great indicator of what's to come

I joined a group today in the group finder for vet crypt of hearts II pledge and left shortly after.

I'm 398cp and the other two were lower than 160. no tank.

I asked if they're going to queue for a tank, but one replied "no we can do it without we're not even at a boss"

So my thoughts were what's gonna happen when we do get to a boss. queue then? it had bad vibes from the start, seeing how I'd joined half way through the dungeon and 2 people had already quit the group.

If there's a 561 in my group I make dam sure I follow his lead. I know not all 561 are "pros" but until I'm at their level they have a lot more knowledge than me and most probably more skill.