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Potential Guild Trader Exploit! Please Investigate and Fix ASAP!

PathwayM
PathwayM
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I noticed something funky that happened in Rawl'kha during the trader flip on 1/22/2017.

The guild 'Guild for Testing' won the bid for the guild trader 'Ronuril'. Moments later the guild trader was owned by an entirely different guild.

Here are some screen shots showing the initial guild's ownership of the said guild trader:

115746cb470f209b1946aafac7142c59.jpg

9ad9c24b7933d36f045f1b5a9a28cb29.png

It looks like the initial guild might have disbanded and the second guild hired the spot. This brings up some immediate concern for this behavior to be abused. If a large trade guild bids on one location, loses their bid, and makes a bid on a second location with a 'throw away guild' it seems as though the throw away guild could be disbanded and immediately hired by the primary guild. I cannot say whether or not this was the case in this scenario and I'm not going to name the guild that took over the spot, but this needs to be addressed.
Edited by PathwayM on January 23, 2017 1:41AM
  • dustinoverfield
    It seems what happened is a guild has found a way to exploit the system and by using this method they essentially got themselves 2 bids. I think ZoS should quickly make an example of that guild before this becomes a regular practice for many trade guilds. Such a shame to see a trade guild sink to this level :(
  • Kivisild
    Kivisild
    Soul Shriven
    Being an avid trader and using top Guild Traders this should be fixed ASAP. Having people use such an exploit like this should not exist and ruins the trading community.
  • redspecter23
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    Probably more of a loophole than an exploit. The people in question didn't do anything against the rules but are working the system. ZOS should probably find a way to patch up that loophole before it escalates past one testing guild and into something much larger and more sketchy.
  • PathwayM
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    One solution to fix the issue of a guild being disbanded to give up the trader to another guild could be to keep that trader owned by the disbanded guild for the remainder of the week. (Effectively rendering the trader useless for the week...)
    Probably more of a loophole than an exploit. The people in question didn't do anything against the rules but are working the system. ZOS should probably find a way to patch up that loophole before it escalates past one testing guild and into something much larger and more sketchy.

    Well I can't entirely agree since the trader system was designed for a single guild to be able to bid on only one trader. This "loophole" as you call it, I see more of as an exploit because it directly affects intended in game mechanics by allowing a single guild to potentially bid on an unlimited number of traders.
    Edited by PathwayM on January 23, 2017 2:11AM
  • redmoonga
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    This was an intentional creation of an exploit to get around having only one bid. If this was allowed to continue without punishment, every guild would be doing it next week and the whole trader game would go to crap over night.

    ZOS, please let these people know what happens when you try to ruin the game by using an exploit! I'm in TS with many GM's of many guilds right now and I haven't seen this kind of rage over cheaters in quite a while.

    @Redmoonga, GM of Black Dragon Apothecary (@BlackDragonGM)
    Edited by redmoonga on January 23, 2017 5:37AM
  • Runs
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    I can't remember the system or server but I think this has been mentioned before where the empty guild was trying to sell the spot back(disband) for real cash.
    Runs| Orc NightbladeChim-el Adabal| Dunmer TemplarM'air the Honest| Khajiit Templar
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  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Runs wrote: »
    I can't remember the system or server but I think this has been mentioned before where the empty guild was trying to sell the spot back(disband) for real cash.

    That's a good point and that's an even bigger issue than the one that I was initially shedding light on...
  • ElfFromSpace
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    This just makes the trading game even more broken. Other guilds have been aware of this potential exploit for a long time but have not put it into practice. If this is considered acceptable behavior, then soon every large trade guild will feel the need to create a fake second bid guild to hedge their bets. Smaller guilds will find themselves outbid by the backup bids of large guilds and if the large guild doesn't need the spot that week, then the fake guilds with no items for sale will likely just sit there, locking guilds with lower budgets out completely.
    Former GM Elder Scrolls Exchange
  • Mojmir
    Mojmir
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    All zos will do is close the thread for naming and shaming, sad
  • ElfFromSpace
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    Mojmir wrote: »
    All zos will do is close the thread for naming and shaming, sad

    There is no naming of anything except a guild that doesn't exist.
    Former GM Elder Scrolls Exchange
  • ArchMikem
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    If tomorrow, say, a person finds an exploit in gameplay or PvE, even when more people join in, nobody panics. But when someone finds a way to cheat other Trading Guilds out of their gold income monopolies, well then everyone loses their minds!

    /Joker
    CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Haulinash
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    The time spent trying this sneaky crap boggles the mind...
    Thank the stars! I wasn't sure I'd find anyone else out here. Please, I ne- STAB! STAB! STABSTABSTABSTABSTAB!
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    This just makes the trading game even more broken. Other guilds have been aware of this potential exploit for a long time but have not put it into practice. If this is considered acceptable behavior, then soon every large trade guild will feel the need to create a fake second bid guild to hedge their bets. Smaller guilds will find themselves outbid by the backup bids of large guilds and if the large guild doesn't need the spot that week, then the fake guilds with no items for sale will likely just sit there, locking guilds with lower budgets out completely.

    Yeah, I didn't think that far ahead of what could potentially happen... sadface :(
    Mojmir wrote: »
    All zos will do is close the thread for naming and shaming, sad

    As I mentioned in my original post, this is merely something I noticed going on and made a request for it to be investigated further.
  • Mojmir
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    Mojmir wrote: »
    All zos will do is close the thread for naming and shaming, sad

    There is no naming of anything except a guild that doesn't exist.

    Okay so then they won't do anything at all.
  • Tabbycat
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    Assuming this is what happened, who's to say they made only one "fake" guild? If you have enough gold, how many fake guilds placing bets could one guild create?
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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  • driosketch
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    That's a lot of risk to pull off. Player counter is clear, next time you spot an empty store with a spot, alert everyone to park someone with hire privilege there, try to snipe the trader during the change over.
    Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
    ●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Tabbycat wrote: »
    Assuming this is what happened, who's to say they made only one "fake" guild? If you have enough gold, how many fake guilds placing bets could one guild create?

    In theory an unlimited number.
    driosketch wrote: »
    That's a lot of risk to pull off. Player counter is clear, next time you spot an empty store with a spot, alert everyone to park someone with hire privilege there, try to snipe the trader during the change over.

    Yeah, but if two people are coordinating it, it would be much harder for anyone to intervene. It's unfortunately not something that we can easily prevent as a community.
    Edited by PathwayM on January 23, 2017 2:25AM
  • rosendoichinoveb17_ESO
    rosendoichinoveb17_ESO
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    Could this be related in any way to the phenomenon that we've seen some weeks: random empty guilds occupying popular spots (rendering this guild trader useless cause no one is selling anything through it)?
    Edited by rosendoichinoveb17_ESO on January 23, 2017 2:27AM
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Could this be related in any way to the phenomenon that we've seen some weeks of random empty guilds occupying popular spots (rendering this guild trader useless cause no one is selling anything through it)?

    Maybe? 0.o?
  • Tabbycat
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    Could this be related in any way to the phenomenon that we've seen some weeks: random empty guilds occupying popular spots (rendering this guild trader useless cause no one is selling anything through it)?

    Perhaps guild trader stores that remain empty should be reported for ZOS to investigate?
    Edited by Tabbycat on January 23, 2017 2:32AM
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
    0.016%
  • Scaena
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    This is disturbing to hear but I admit after reading his I couldn't help but think how this would help with my own guilds bids. We lost our bid two weeks ago so if this is acceptable practice then I'll have to do the same and create alt guilds to bid on other spots.

    When we lost our bid it was hard and I don't want it to happen again. I don't want to ruin the game for other guilds but if I can bid on two or even three spots to ensure my guild has a trader each week then I will unless I'm told it's not acceptable by ZOS.

    I'm sorry to the other guilds but if I hire multiple trader spots with our gold then it's fair play right? Even if I'm taking multiple spots I'm still paying. It's not like it's my fault if all the other small guilds die out because wealthier guilds are now buying up all the spots as backups.

    I could even maybe SELL spots I won bids on? Maybe create a cartel of sorts where we win multiple spots each week then sell those spots to guilds who lost. I could probably make a ton of gold by winning traders and selling them.. Hmm...

    A lot of possibilities open up if this is allowed. I could make trader spots even more rare and valuable by bidding on all the cheap spots with alt guilds shutting out the new trader guilds then demand whatever I want to allow new guilds a place in my new cartel. Maybe start charging a "protection tax" so I don't bid on your trader spot with my alt guild.

    Hmm... I wonder what else I could do with this...
    FUTURE KINGPIN OF TAMRIEL
  • Sheezabeast
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    oh that is just bull****


    i hate people sometimes
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • ElfFromSpace
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    Could this be related in any way to the phenomenon that we've seen some weeks: random empty guilds occupying popular spots (rendering this guild trader useless cause no one is selling anything through it)?

    Very likely. if it hasn't already happened then it likely will. What if the guild in question wins with their main guild and with their backup guild? In that case would they leave the fake guild in the secondary spot? Or would they perhaps sell that spot to the highest bidder? Either way it's a clear way to circumvent the intended system.
    Former GM Elder Scrolls Exchange
  • calia1120
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    Mojmir wrote: »
    All zos will do is close the thread for naming and shaming, sad

    The guild mentioned in the original post has been disbanded and no longer exists. This is a concerning issue as it presents new problems with an already difficult system mechanic.

    Leaders of trade guilds work extremely hard to ensure consistency for their members, and this kind of behavior will do nothing but hurt the trading community, especially the smaller guilds, if larger trade guilds start to bid elsewhere.
    GM, Iron Bank of Bravos | The Psijic Order | Mara's Tester/Mara's Moxie | Dominion Imperial Guard
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  • kargen27
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    This just makes the trading game even more broken. Other guilds have been aware of this potential exploit for a long time but have not put it into practice. If this is considered acceptable behavior, then soon every large trade guild will feel the need to create a fake second bid guild to hedge their bets. Smaller guilds will find themselves outbid by the backup bids of large guilds and if the large guild doesn't need the spot that week, then the fake guilds with no items for sale will likely just sit there, locking guilds with lower budgets out completely.

    Trading guilds for a long time now have had back-up bids on traders that they can usually get for cheap. That way if they do lose their preferred spot they still at least have something available. That is why you see so many traders that have one green recipe in them or something like that.

    When they get the spot they want they just leave the other one empty for the week. Just part of the cost of doing business. And being able to deny potential competition a spot is just an added bonus.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Scaena wrote: »
    This is disturbing to hear but I admit after reading his I couldn't help but think how this would help with my own guilds bids. We lost our bid two weeks ago so if this is acceptable practice then I'll have to do the same and create alt guilds to bid on other spots.

    When we lost our bid it was hard and I don't want it to happen again. I don't want to ruin the game for other guilds but if I can bid on two or even three spots to ensure my guild has a trader each week then I will unless I'm told it's not acceptable by ZOS.

    I'm sorry to the other guilds but if I hire multiple trader spots with our gold then it's fair play right? Even if I'm taking multiple spots I'm still paying. It's not like it's my fault if all the other small guilds die out because wealthier guilds are now buying up all the spots as backups.

    I could even maybe SELL spots I won bids on? Maybe create a cartel of sorts where we win multiple spots each week then sell those spots to guilds who lost. I could probably make a ton of gold by winning traders and selling them.. Hmm...

    A lot of possibilities open up if this is allowed. I could make trader spots even more rare and valuable by bidding on all the cheap spots with alt guilds shutting out the new trader guilds then demand whatever I want to allow new guilds a place in my new cartel. Maybe start charging a "protection tax" so I don't bid on your trader spot with my alt guild.

    Hmm... I wonder what else I could do with this...

    Please keep in mind that my original post was not in any way intended to promote cheating in anyway and I would discourage you from using this exploit. My sole intentions are to make the issue known and nothing else.
    kargen27 wrote: »
    This just makes the trading game even more broken. Other guilds have been aware of this potential exploit for a long time but have not put it into practice. If this is considered acceptable behavior, then soon every large trade guild will feel the need to create a fake second bid guild to hedge their bets. Smaller guilds will find themselves outbid by the backup bids of large guilds and if the large guild doesn't need the spot that week, then the fake guilds with no items for sale will likely just sit there, locking guilds with lower budgets out completely.

    Trading guilds for a long time now have had back-up bids on traders that they can usually get for cheap. That way if they do lose their preferred spot they still at least have something available. That is why you see so many traders that have one green recipe in them or something like that.

    When they get the spot they want they just leave the other one empty for the week. Just part of the cost of doing business. And being able to deny potential competition a spot is just an added bonus.

    The fact that it exists doesn't in any way make it acceptable in my opinion.
    Edited by PathwayM on January 23, 2017 2:40AM
  • Tabbycat
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    I thought the entire point of using Traders was to prevent one guild from gaining a monopoly over others. If this is happening and continues to happen, ZOS might as well just pull the whole thing and change to a global Auction House system instead.
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
    0.016%
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Tabbycat wrote: »
    I thought the entire point of using Traders was to prevent one guild from gaining a monopoly over others. If this is happening and continues to happen, ZOS might as well just pull the whole thing and change to a global Auction House system instead.

    I would hate to see that happen, I like the uniqueness of the current system compared to other games.
  • Scaena
    Scaena
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    PathwayM wrote: »
    Scaena wrote: »
    This is disturbing to hear but I admit after reading his I couldn't help but think how this would help with my own guilds bids. We lost our bid two weeks ago so if this is acceptable practice then I'll have to do the same and create alt guilds to bid on other spots.

    When we lost our bid it was hard and I don't want it to happen again. I don't want to ruin the game for other guilds but if I can bid on two or even three spots to ensure my guild has a trader each week then I will unless I'm told it's not acceptable by ZOS.

    I'm sorry to the other guilds but if I hire multiple trader spots with our gold then it's fair play right? Even if I'm taking multiple spots I'm still paying. It's not like it's my fault if all the other small guilds die out because wealthier guilds are now buying up all the spots as backups.

    I could even maybe SELL spots I won bids on? Maybe create a cartel of sorts where we win multiple spots each week then sell those spots to guilds who lost. I could probably make a ton of gold by winning traders and selling them.. Hmm...

    A lot of possibilities open up if this is allowed. I could make trader spots even more rare and valuable by bidding on all the cheap spots with alt guilds shutting out the new trader guilds then demand whatever I want to allow new guilds a place in my new cartel. Maybe start charging a "protection tax" so I don't bid on your trader spot with my alt guild.

    Hmm... I wonder what else I could do with this...

    Please keep in mind that my original post was not in any way intended to promote cheating in anyway and I would discourage you from using this exploit. My sole intentions are to make the issue known and nothing else.

    That's up to Zenimax to decide right? If they say it's allowed then who am I to disagree? If they want to allow my guild to dominate why should I say no? If I want to bid on multiple guild traders and sell them and zenimax says ok then why shouldn't I? If I want to create my own little empire of trader spots why not?

    It's up to Zenimax to say whether it's fair or an exploit. Who knows... maybe in a couple of months guilds will have to come to my guild for permission to bid on spots. Everyone will be a part of my cartel all those who disagree will be forced out by my alt guilds.

    Zenimax will have to let us know if they want guild monopolies and half or more traders filled with now worthless guilds just taking up room to shut out the competition and make them come to the big guilds to plead for a spot.

    In PVP they have the Emperor achievement right? Maybe Trade should have the King Pin Achievement for when you thoroughly destroy all competition and take all the trader spots with alt guilds.
    Edited by Scaena on January 23, 2017 2:55AM
    FUTURE KINGPIN OF TAMRIEL
  • Tabbycat
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    It sounds like an exploit to me.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you clarify on whether or not this is allowed?
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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