Balance direction in Update 13

silky_soft

Nifty2g wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
[/list]


-rich

You what mate? You want to take skill away so that bad people can artificially improve their dps? You do know handing out participation awards is more damaging then doing nothing? Some of us spend hours perfecting rotations for pve and pvp. Buffing and nerfing skills is part of the mmo, but if your actual goal is to reduce skill required to pull off complex combos. You guys are heading the wrong direction.

You still can, they're just wanting to give options to the average player that don't put hours into testing. It's not as if a top 1% player will suddenly be on the same level as some fresh CP player. The patch reduced a very little amount of complex combos, mainly the curse 3.5second combo and what not.

That said though, from this they are asking for help from players, and want to buff/nerf some stuff or make changes, maybe we should get them videos instead of just typing not many people are streaming this pts

It's not about how little the change was this patch. It'a bout the direction it's taking. We go from sub>b2p>crownstore>predatory gambling crates>housing>???>super casual easy mode?

Not many are streaming it because they think it's a trash update. You got to be brutally honest. When IC came out, my whole pvp guild stopped pvp on live for nearly a month. It was like Chalamo 24/7 in memorial. We stay testing and reporting bugs the whole time. Then VMA people come to test. Every PTS since we have had less and less people test because no one is interested in the changes or we reported things from live and they still don't get fixed. You know how many this PTS? 3, 3 people bothered to test anything.

OT patch was good heaps of people came on to test new sets, try new builds that was for the first week only. This patch, eh, house editor that is terrible to use and looks like a crownsink. No new sets, no set balance, no real skill balance, no perma block/heavy armor resource balance. Spent an hour or so opening some TVS boxes, playing with IC accessories. Nothing to render a full scale invasion to test.

silky_soft

Neoauspex wrote: »

Could some of the PTS testers comment on whether the crit changes to proc sets have accomplished these goals?

Crit change has done nothing. You can still stack 3 sets all on seperate cooldowns.

Thornen

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

• Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

-rich

Magsorc already had the simplest rotation of all the magicka classes as it was, all you have done is dumpster the pvp rotation while making pve force pulse spam even more boring. It's a terrible change that is unanimously disliked. Please listen to the community for once and revert this change.

Hexys

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

This one also falls in the PvE category, a nice graphic from @Alpheu5 shows exactly the difference for PvE. You as Zenimax CAN'T take this as a point of view, I mean is there no Cyrodiil anymore or what? As many request changing deadric pray to the way haunting curse works as it will give 'lazy' players their way to play their PvE/PvP and also buffs pet-sorcs, that's what you are aiming for so. Velicious curse is necessary to be 3.5 seconds in so many situations, there is no reason to simplifiy PvP. YOU PLAY PVP, COME ON!

DragonBound

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ArtOfShred wrote: »

Thanks for the update Rich! I think a lot of players were expecting a more significant balance overhaul with this patch and are disappointed due to the relatively minor changes in the span of things.

I can see you guys have had your hands full with Housing though, and its absolutely excellent!

I do however think it may be beneficial to consider a few suggestions players are putting out currently such as adding a counterplay option to destro staff in blocking it. In addition if you are looking to bring up the lower end, Stamplar Templars are falling behind their other stamina counterparts in pve pretty significantly right now. Their sustain is hurting compared to other stamina classes outside of conditional repentance situations. A few more minor buffs to the underdogs might help in the meantime while we wait for more comprehensive changes!

Like I said in my original post... we have more coming. Hopefully they make PTS3.

Nice, now if people would stop being so rude, to everyone who is try to express the concerns in a calm and adult way please this is getting us no where.

Inferno3

I can understand why you would want to try and make the game more inclusive from a business point of view. I would assume the majority of the income form the crown store comes from people who wouldn't be considered to be 'the best' or even care about end game content and you need to cater to those who provide the paycheck. I get it, it makes sense if that's the case. But if the trend is tending towards making the game too easy... well you're going to lose those of us that actually work on improving ourselves. Those of us that have spent hours/days/weeks/months grinding the best gear for our builds, learning rotations and theory-crafting new builds after we've finished with those. And i get that this may not be an issue for you as long as the bank is happy. But if no one ever completed vMoL HM then were does that leave the trial? Left to those who spent weeks learning the mechanics? But they're gone as all they have to do is push a few buttons every few seconds instead of actually doing something that requires skill.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there always needs to be a skill gap between those who picked up the game for Christmas and those who have been here since beta/launch, and getting rid of this is only going to *** people off, not to mention make the game stale and boring.

I don't want to end this on a negative, so ill say the work you guys do is excellent and i cannot complain about the vast world that you have created.

WaTeR-aBuSeR

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)
[*] Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.

These changes will make vma much harder for temps. I am already using the healing morph which is less dmg and now its way less. I wish the more dmg morph was changed to add a slow or allow the player to move at full speed instead of just nerfing overall damage. The change affects both morphs when the healing one is already 10k per tick less dmg while executing.

Kadoozy

This doesn't address Stamplar though, you did nothing to raise the floor for them. It only made it worse with your changes to rearming trap and I am sure other skills that i am forgetting. So we still are going to do the least amount of damage of any class, just even less now.

riVALry9

Thank you for the explanation, it is sincerely appreciated.

I have to say, however, that you are causing me to have flashbacks to a few other MMOs I have played (that are, for all intents and purposes, dead). Power creep is real and it cannot be left unchecked, but nerfing (or boosting) individual class skills is not going to accomplish what you seem to want (although some were/are in obvious need of tweaking) You are not creating diversity, you are taking it away. Giving casual players a means to compete is all well and good (I personally think they have just about everything they need at their disposal, but I digress) but if you continue to remove skill from the game and alienate your "constants", the competitive players that are always around and pour substantial time and money into this game every month, I can assure you that this game will die...so I really hope you have a game plan in place on that front.

And please, for the love of all that is holy, please learn to seperate PVE and PVP. You're going to have to do it whether you want to or not. We know what Impenetrable does, it doesn't change the fact this proposed change to proc sets is only going to hurt PvE players and is not fixing the problem in PvP one iota. Listen to your customers on this.

Please understand, we wouldn't complain about the game if we didn't care about it.

P.S: Please revert the changes to Velocious Curse. It may be a boon for PvEers but it is crippling magSorcs in PvP and completely abolishes an entire play style (DW) If you still think the skill needs the 12 second timer, at least take a look at some of the alternatives that we have given you; there has been several well thought out adjustments to Haunting Curse that would benefit everyone without being OP.

Minalan

Hexys wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

This one also falls in the PvE category, a nice graphic from @Alpheu5 shows exactly the difference for PvE. You as Zenimax CAN'T take this as a point of view, I mean is there no Cyrodiil anymore or what? As many request changing deadric pray to the way haunting curse works as it will give 'lazy' players their way to play their PvE/PvP and also buffs pet-sorcs, that's what you are aiming for so. Velicious curse is necessary to be 3.5 seconds in so many situations, there is no reason to simplifiy PvP. YOU PLAY PVP, COME ON!

I agree. The curse change is dividing the sorc community into PVE and PVE players. PVE players want the superior efficiency and smoother DPS rotation of 'haunting curse'

PVP players REALLY need to be able to land 3 unblockable curses in 12 seconds this patch, especially with the ice staff changes and incoming Magicka Templar ice staff block/purge/heal tanks.

The only way to fix this is to make the pet morph into a "haunting" curse, and let us keep the original Velicious Curse. Both sides get what they want, you don't lose anyone over this, everyone's happy and paying more cash for crown store swag.

PS: Speaking of curse: Curse YOU ZOS for adding more mounts that I want. The data mined spriggan mounts look amazing. Kudos to the art team.

React

All the balance updates and stamplar still can't compete/ is the lowest part of the lowest part of the floor.

PLEASE work on balancing stamplar with the NUMEROUS excellent selections made on these forums!

smacx250

Drop a bomb and split for the weekend - I know that move well!
But seriously - thanks for the insight!

Lucky28

@ZOS_RichLambert

thanks you for taking the time to respond. A couple things i'm not clear on.

1. Proc sets: the change doesn't really address the issue. Proc sets weren't really a problem until the ability to stack multiple proc sets came into the picture (Viper+Velidreth, Viper+Velidreth+Widow etc) making proc sets unable to crit is more damaging to players who use only one proc set (magicka users specifically) while the people who run 2-3 proc sets are still using 2-3 proc sets. this disparity is still very much there.

this change is simply gonna hit the wrong group of people.

2. Haunting curse: that change is painful as it hits an entire playstyle. getting rid of daedric pray (or whatever the name of the other morph of Velocious curse that i never see is called) and replacing it with haunting curse might be preferable.

3. Magicka Nightblade: that class needs no nerfs it's already the hardest class to play. upping the cost of Strife simplifies nothing. if you're not gonna buff the class fine, but for the love of god don't nerf it.

anyways. thanks again for the response.

Snit

Narrowing the overall gap between ceiling and floor is a reasonable direction. Many will dislike it, but more will approve. I'm in the 'approve' category.

However, it appears that these balance changes address only the devs' concerns, and not those of the players. There have been hundreds (thousands?) of posts on issues such as the imbalance between heavy armor and light, yet neither that nor many similar issues appear in the current build. Instead, we see random, unasked-for oddities such as the nerf to Strife.

We understand that more is coming. Please have someone outline, if only generally, what else is in the pipeline. Please let us know that the stuff we're concerned about is at least being considered.

Wollust

Idk you guys have gotten us all hyped up for months for the mythical balance patch just to tell us then that a lot of stuff didn't make it into the first PTS round? And the stuff that we got consists of tons of things no one ever even asked for? For the sake of making the game more simple? Sounds more like dumbing it down once more.

I, and I guess everyone else here, appreciate the communication a lot! But the whole situation right now just downright sucks. And it doesn't make it better with you trying to hype us up into the third PTS. Especially not if we consider how past PTS rounds have been regarding listening to feedback and stuff.

But oh well, I hope you'll surprise us. Positively, that is.

smee_z

@ZOS_RichLambert

Thank you for keeping us in the loop.

From the responses in this thread, you know the ones who thinks ONLY for themselves rather than the general population.

Izaki

@ZOS_RichLambert Hey thanks for clearing this up! So far I undetstand most changes and can see why it was done in the way it was done.

However, I'm still wondering about the severe nerf of stamina maximum damage. I can understand the Hurricane change and the Standard of Might change (which also affects magicka DKs obviously). But wasn't the Rearming Trap damage reduction a little too much? I definitely see why it needed it, but I don't know if a decrease of damage by almost a third is a healthy change. After all, in PvE magicka builds have much more AoE potential than stamina. However, since Dark Brotherhood stamina excelled in single target damage. Now as it currently is on PTS, magicka builds are more than capable of pulling higher numbers than stamina, even in single target. In fact, they mostly outperform stamina. The destruction staff buffs are great! But will there be a benefit in bringing a stamina build into a Hard Mode trial? Now that they don't even provide a higher "burn", there really isn't, as magicka has more AoE, more survivability and doesn't require "babysitting" with shards, repentance or support sets.

So I'm asking why did you guys take it out on stamina so much?

arkansas_ESO

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

The issue isn't with proc sets critting, it's with proc sets stacking. Though the change to making proc sets unable to crit is going to increase the time to kill, it still doesn't solve the core issue of sets doing more damage than actual skills. I can do more damage with sword&shield than I can with 2H, because of sets like Viper and Tremorscale. I've won so many fights that I was about to lose because I got lucky with a Velidreth proc. Proc sets make it feel like I'm not the one winning my fights, but lucky RNG and overpowered gear is.

Also, it's kind of concerning that seemingly all of your changes were done with PVE in mind first, with PVP as an afterthought. I'm sure the change to Curse will increase magic sorc's DPS in trials, but it's a nerf to PVP, and it doesn't seem like you guys even considered PVP when you made these changes. The removal of the stun from Blazing Spear is the same way-I'm sure the longer duration of the DOT will make it more appealing to Templars in PVE, but for PVP it's just a nerf, and, again, it doesn't seem like you guys even thought about PVP. Even the nerf to proc sets, which PVPers have been calling for, seemed like you approached it from the angle of "How can we reduce DPS in trials" instead of "How can we make PVP more than rapid button smashing while you wait for your procs to fire."

s7732425ub17_ESO

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert Hey thanks for clearing this up! So far I undetstand most changes and can see why it was done in the way it was done.

However, I'm still wondering about the severe nerf of stamina maximum damage. I can understand the Hurricane change and the Standard of Might change (which also affects magicka DKs obviously). But wasn't the Rearming Trap damage reduction a little too much? I definitely see why it needed it, but I don't know if a decrease of damage by almost a third is a healthy change. After all, in PvE magicka builds have much more AoE potential than stamina. However, since Dark Brotherhood stamina excelled in single target damage. Now as it currently is on PTS, magicka builds are more than capable of pulling higher numbers than stamina, even in single target. In fact, they mostly outperform stamina. The destruction staff buffs are great! But will there be a benefit in bringing a stamina build into a Hard Mode trial? Now that they don't even provide a higher "burn", there really isn't, as magicka has more AoE, more survivability and doesn't require "babysitting" with shards, repentance or support sets.

So I'm asking why did you guys take it out on stamina so much?

What? Stamina builds have more aoe potential than magicka builds. The difference was so great that they had to introduce the Destro ulti to bring magicka AOE back in line with stamina AOE.

ZOS_RichLambert

Grunim wrote: »

And from Rich's wording I wonder if additional balance changes will bypass PTS altogether and be part of Update 13 when it goes live.

Ideally we always want changes to get some kind of testing on PTS before they get to Live. Things don't always work out that way unfortunately. (it bugs us just as much as you all)

smacx250 wrote: »

Drop a bomb and split for the weekend - I know that move well!

Who says I left for the weekend? I'm still here... there's lots to do still!

Liam12548 wrote: »

All the balance updates and stamplar still can't compete/ is the lowest part of the lowest part of the floor.

I did say there's more changes planned (across all classes btw). I just won't comment on them until I know for sure they will make it.

Minalan wrote: »

PVP players REALLY need to be able to land 3 unblockable curses in 12 seconds this patch, especially with the ice staff changes and incoming Magicka Templar ice staff block/purge/heal tanks.

We know that burst is really important in PVP - having the 3 extra globals helps with that, but we'll re-evaluate the change.

Wollust wrote: »

But the whole situation right now just downright sucks. And it doesn't make it better with you trying to hype us up into the third PTS.

We're not trying to hype things up. It sucks for us too that we can't do everything all at once.

dantator

Thank you Rich for opening up more communications with us and considering our input. One of my main concerns is if you guys have any plans to buff medium and light armor to compete with heavy armor in pvp? As a magicka DK I'm forced into running heavy armor in open world pvp. The only magdk build that can somewhat perform well is if you run restro staff and use healing ward. I've tried double sword and board in light armor and its completely trash (don't get me wrong the damage is nice but the survivability is ***). I'm aware with the changes to dragonblood (Divine Cross and I tested dragonblood in pts) in the next update which will definitely help but I still feel like light armor is too squishy and won't be the pick in the next update. I really want to be able to survive in light armor as a magdk in pvp. Maybe some utility survivability instead of just flate resistance and healing buff (the bug in ultimate reduction made sense)? Or maybe uping the damage since heavy got a spell damage buff? But I can imagine the consequences of just buffing light armor with just flat damage increase in pve. I'd like to hear from you.

Also, I strongly disagree with making it easier to play the game. Competitive game play is what keeps the long term players playing the game.

Minalan

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Grunim wrote: »

And from Rich's wording I wonder if additional balance changes will bypass PTS altogether and be part of Update 13 when it goes live.

Ideally we always want changes to get some kind of testing on PTS before they get to Live. Things don't always work out that way unfortunately. (it bugs us just as much as you all)

smacx250 wrote: »

Drop a bomb and split for the weekend - I know that move well!

Who says I left for the weekend? I'm still here... there's lots to do still!

Liam12548 wrote: »

All the balance updates and stamplar still can't compete/ is the lowest part of the lowest part of the floor.

I did say there's more changes planned (across all classes btw). I just won't comment on them until I know for sure they will make it.

Minalan wrote: »

PVP players REALLY need to be able to land 3 unblockable curses in 12 seconds this patch, especially with the ice staff changes and incoming Magicka Templar ice staff block/purge/heal tanks.

We know that burst is really important in PVP - having the 3 extra globals helps with that, but we'll re-evaluate the change.

Wollust wrote: »

But the whole situation right now just downright sucks. And it doesn't make it better with you trying to hype us up into the third PTS.

We're not trying to hype things up. It sucks for us too that we can't do everything all at once.

Re-evaluate? Good God thank you Rich! Nothing beats three unblockable curses in PVP when fighting tanks. With the old velocious morph we can at least pick and choose which skills to use best.

PVP is not a battle of rotations and global, but reacting and planning in a fight against a real human being.

Also. Because you know after the patch every Templar is going to run around with an ice staff.

Have a good weekend! Relax, you guys have earned it.

Curragraigue

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)

@ZOS_RichLambert
Thanks for the explanations of this one. I disagree with some of the other changes, but this is the only one that actually bothers me.

I think that you should consider multiple factors in the future before nerfing something. You are correct that simplifying this ability by having one damage morph and one utility morph makes sense in a vacuum. However, you also need to consider that Templar are already light on stuns/cc in general, so removing one for the sake of simplicity might not be a good idea.

My suggestion, make the CC on Luminous shards a double CC like Encase, Fossilize, or Bombard and/or make the Disorient AoE.

^This, changes can have more than one effect. Removing the only real stun Temps have is not a balance when the other classes keep their stuns.

NBrookus

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ArtOfShred wrote: »

Thanks for the update Rich! I think a lot of players were expecting a more significant balance overhaul with this patch and are disappointed due to the relatively minor changes in the span of things.

I can see you guys have had your hands full with Housing though, and its absolutely excellent!

I do however think it may be beneficial to consider a few suggestions players are putting out currently such as adding a counterplay option to destro staff in blocking it. In addition if you are looking to bring up the lower end, Stamplar Templars are falling behind their other stamina counterparts in pve pretty significantly right now. Their sustain is hurting compared to other stamina classes outside of conditional repentance situations. A few more minor buffs to the underdogs might help in the meantime while we wait for more comprehensive changes!

Like I said in my original post... we have more coming. Hopefully they make PTS3.

@ZOS_RichLambert Thank you for the explanation. it seems like you guys are going the long way around to bring soft caps back tho.

When you say you have more coming, I think I speak for all magicka DKs when I ask, "was that it for us?" Because at the moment, if feels like the buffs we were promised were not delivered. And if the intention was to simplify, CDB went in very much the opposite direction. Now you not only have to manage resources, you have to manage them at a specific level in order to get a heal. If you tell us you aren't done with revealing the mDK changes, it will probably alleviate a good bit of the angst.

However, if this was the full set up mDK updates, can you please address what you expect the mDK playstyle to be? If Templars have their house, what do mDKs have?

Reorx_Holybeard

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Compensation only if you have base critical damage modifier

@Nifty2g can you clarify what you mean by that?

I was specifically noting NBs and Templars since they have class critical damage passives.

If you have the base 50% Critical Damage then before and after update 13 you have the same effect from Major Force:

• Before: 50% * 1.30 = 65%
• After: 50% + 15% = 65%

However, you will lose Critical Damage if you have more than the base. For example, if you look at a Templar/NB with ~25 points in CPs, Shadow Mundus, and with Minor Force:

• Before: 98% * 1.30 = 127%
• After: 96% + 15% = 111% (16% loss)

I guess you could consider this a reduction of the "ceiling DPS" that Rich talks about as most beginners would be at the base 50% modifier.

pieratsos

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We're not trying to hype things up. It sucks for us too that we can't do everything all at once.

Then how about u stop trying to balance the game every 4 months and do some small changes in between. It will make ur life easier.

Ishammael

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.

It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.

-rich

@ZOS_RichLambert
Thanks very much for the note!

Definitely will be looking forward to the next round of balance updates on PTS3.

PS. Consider some (small) changes on Coagulating Blood to make it less situational.

MopeyHat

Glad to hear actual dev thoughts.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

I don't understand this response. Yes, it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you. I doubt many were trying to say differently. We're trying to say this impacts PVE way, way more than PVP.

Can you say whether you are going to address proc stacking? E.g. moving more sets to DOTs or adding cooldowns?

Are any buffs coming for the older proc sets that have been sitting in the dust for a while?

Minalan

pieratsos wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We're not trying to hype things up. It sucks for us too that we can't do everything all at once.

Then how about u stop trying to balance the game every 4 months and do some small changes in between. It will make ur life easier.

Kindly don't scare ZOS off. We haven't had this kind of open dialogue with them in the two years since I started.

LiquidPony

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I guess you could consider this a reduction of the "ceiling DPS" that Rich talks about as most beginners would be at the base 50% modifier.

I understand how Major Force works as it relates to base CHD and buffed CHD. I didn't understand what Nifty2g meant by "compensation."

I'm just looking for someone from ZOS to clarify that contradictory patch note.

I don't really care about the nerf, it's just that it nerfs the three least-used raid builds (stamplar, stamblade, magblade) harder than anyone else ... and none of those builds were buffed. Doesn't make sense to me.

I would also guess that at least half of the "beginner" population is likely to have buffed CHD (via Nightblade and Templar class passives) long before they've unlocked Aggressive Warhorn.