Balance direction in Update 13

crusnik91

@ZOS_RichLambert
I STRONGLY disagree on simplifying blazing from it original form
FULL in depth argument (edited post!)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/311783/please-do-not-remove-the-stun-from-blazing-spear-skill-pvp-pve-point-of-view/p1?new=1

Adenoma

@ZOS_RichLambert , thanks for taking the time to explain a couple of the change she. We would love more! This is a great chance for dialogue between player and developer.

A couple questions I have:
-why the cost increase on strife?
-why the frost staff changes?
-what is the intent on cDB?

Jaronking

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
  -rich

Thank you for posting your reasoning @ZOS_RichLambert but when it comes to proc sets this change doesn't fix the issue people have with proc sets and just cause a divide in your community.Adding a GCD and allowing them to crit will solve PVP players issue with proc sets.You said I want to reduce their overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain but if your using proc sets you don't have to worry about sustain.When I can wear viper Veli and heavy attack you and now I did 12k instance damage to you I can run no sustain and still kill people easy.Your change did not fix how broken proc sets are just made your community hate and blame each other.

Dracane

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable in pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Sandman929

I'm confused about lowering the damage ceiling when Eye of the Storm is still a giant life sucking vacuum in PvP.

Betheny

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

This is not something we've been asking for.

riVALry9

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

PVP players REALLY need to be able to land 3 unblockable curses in 12 seconds this patch, especially with the ice staff changes and incoming Magicka Templar ice staff block/purge/heal tanks.

We know that burst is really important in PVP - having the 3 extra globals helps with that, but we'll re-evaluate the change.

Thank you @ZOS_RichLambert

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable and pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Armor doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers. People will figure this out then everyone will make very tank characters. Which is what people are doing more and more already.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further.

You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit.

Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling.

What about defensive proc sets? Light armor proc sets which are defensive in nature need some buffs in order to offer both greater survivability and incentive to use light armor. Heavy armor defensive proc sets are fine.

Offensive proc sets currently are a main source of both burst and DPS. They should compliment your DPS not become the major source of it.

For example. There is a heavy armor set called "The Way of Fire" which drops in Craglorn/Skyreach Catacombs. It has a 20% chance to proc for 4000 flame damage. That set is actually a good set and would be about the ideal benchmark for how high the damage of a proc set can be. Compare that to things like Velidreths and Selenes hitting for over 12k without a crit. That's the core issue. The ceiling of the really high DPS proc sets needs a drastic reduction in order to more closely equalize the proc sets to the more average ones. Do that then add a cool down to prevent proc stacking, and you're golden.

dantator

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable and pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Armor doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further.

You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit.

Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling.

I disagree. Its not only the procs that makes it hard for light armor in open world pvp.

Dracane

dantator wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable and pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Armor doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further.

You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit.

Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling.

I disagree. Its not only the procs that makes it hard for light armor in open world pvp.

it's because light armor has the worst passives and heavy armor the best.
Light armor is naked in pvp, but does not deal enough damage or enough sustain to justify this.

You get more regen (both, magicka and stamina +50% more effect on heavy attacks) and still good damage from Wrath.
People choose heavy, because light and medium are completely unattractive. You are squishy, but don't get enough to compensate. Buff these and people might finally consider them again.

dantator

Dracane wrote: »

dantator wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable and pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Armor doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further.

You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit.

Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling.

I disagree. Its not only the procs that makes it hard for light armor in open world pvp.

it's because light armor has the worst passives and heavy armor the best.
Light armor is naked in pvp, but does not deal enough damage or enough sustain to justify this.

You get more regen (both, magicka and stamina +50% more effect on heavy attacks) and still good damage from Wrath.
People choose heavy, because light and medium are completely unattractive. You are squishy, but don't get enough to compensate. Buff these and people might finally consider them again.

Yeah, I agree. For example, I like to risk it for the biscuit in pvp. If light armor had more damage or utility to compensate for the lack of tankiness I would use it. I was optimistic, faithful, and determined to make my magdk work in light armor and double sword and board in open world but I learned my lesson. Lets just say it was a suicide from the start.

pretzl

Rich, I respect you as a person and I respect the team behind this game, but this is kindof atrocious.
You say you want to bring things more in line in terms of overall damage output, yet you buff one of the strongest PvE classes (magDK) and actually somewhat nerf (albeit kinda stupidly) one of the worst ones (magblade). You do nothing to help stamina templars and nothing to help magicka nightblades. How is this balance?
Yes, you've nerfed the 2nd strongest PvE class and made the rotation more clunky (magplar), but you've done literally nothing to buff magblades or stamplars, which are EASILY the worst classes to play in terms of PvE. Both of them are relatively *** as far as PvP goes aswell.
I just don't see the logic there, but I do really appreciate you taking the time to write this out. Please give us more insight like this into how you think when doing this kind of balance.

I just hope you listen to the community as far as feedback goes (which I know you do). Especially when it comes to things like Major/Minor Force nerf and the lack of buffs for nightblades and stamplars...

STEVIL

@ZOS_RichLambert

thank you again.

i have an observation on pets changes i would like you to consider before finalizing the change.

Comment on Volatile Clanfear Change

Summon Volatile Familiar (Summon Unstable Familiar morph):
Increased the duration of this pet’s special ability to 8 seconds from 4 seconds, causing it to pulse for two extra ticks of damage.

While this could be seen as a sustain boost due to one click lasting longer and more damage, the bigger impact IMO is the stun now takes 8 second to proc. instead of 4 which really cuts down on its impact in combat.

i would strongly suggest that you rewrite thew tooltip to read that every third pulse causes stun or add some effect at the halfway point otherwise the appeal of this pet (which is usually less taken than the clanfear now) will likely drop.

The stun is a vital element of that pet's appeal and halving its frequency for a little more sustain is not a good idea.

As it is now in PTS i would strongly consider switching my pets from twimat/volfam to clanfear/twimean.

Second topic

As far as VC changes - i think the 12s two hits is not enough but i would suggest taking the AOE damage off that morph entirely and adding an ongoing small DOT to the two bug whammies or a minor debuff for the duration. That makes it a more potent single target skill than the variant now and leaves the two morphs pretty solidly divided as to purpose.

a question tho - Are the staff 8% aoe/single damage boosts supposed to work only on staff damage or all damamge by the wielder?

Dracane

dantator wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

dantator wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable and pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Armor doesn't need adjusted in terms of their mitigation. The reason heavy armor is the meta in PVP is because of the proc sets. The heavy armor meta is a symptom of the cause. Not the cause itself. People do the heavy armor meta as a means of adjusting to the overwhelming proc sets

@ZOS_RichLambert These proc set changes need definitely re-evaluated. Right now in PVP, heavy armor is the meta as an effort on behalf of the players to reduce the proc sets strength. Your changes by removing crits doesn't prevent the heavy armor meta. It actually will make it even worst, because people will figure out that you can survive even better. Tanks will be absolutely unkillable without overwhelming numbers.

You're better off going through each set and adjusting them individually (again) than trying to blanket nerf them all. This isn't as convenient for you as developers but it is necessary to do it this way. Blanket nerfs are counter productive and will force even more people to use the already most popular proc sets. Why? A blanket critical nerf makes the lesser desirable sets even less desirable. Thus, the complaints will continue to intensify as gear variety declines even further.

You're going to have to go through all the really popular proc sets and reduce some numbers, add some cool downs to prevent the proc sets from being able to stack or proc at the same time, and still allow them to crit.

Selenes, Velidreths, Red Mountain, Viper, and a few other sets are really common. Lower their ceiling.

I disagree. Its not only the procs that makes it hard for light armor in open world pvp.

it's because light armor has the worst passives and heavy armor the best.
Light armor is naked in pvp, but does not deal enough damage or enough sustain to justify this.

You get more regen (both, magicka and stamina +50% more effect on heavy attacks) and still good damage from Wrath.
People choose heavy, because light and medium are completely unattractive. You are squishy, but don't get enough to compensate. Buff these and people might finally consider them again.

Yeah, I agree. For example, I like to risk it for the biscuit in pvp. If light armor had more damage or utility to compensate for the lack of tankiness I would use it. I was optimistic, faithful, and determined to make my magdk work in light armor and double sword and board in open world but I learned my lesson. Lets just say it was a suicide from the start.

I feel you. In my opinion, everyone in light armor is free Ap in pvp. 1 mistake and they are gone.
Light armor needs to buff the strenght or duration of damage shields, because these are the only defense of light armor. Not heals or spell resistance. Technically, heavy armor is the best for healing, not only because of the healing received, but because wrath actually increases the strenght of heals and spell penetration does not.

So Light armor needs a small spell damage buff in addition to the penetration.
I have no problem with light armor being squishy and requiring flawless gameplay, but make it worth it ! Give light armor the damage and sustain it deserves.

ZOS_RichLambert

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

bebynnag

@ZOS_RichLambert
I apriciate some people like their sorc pets and this is why you are improving them... but for those of us who HATE them, is there a way you could help us out too? allow us to place them in our homes as DPS dummies so we can exact our revenge!

Betheny

[

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

All the older gamers I've encountered who have difficulties playing for whatever reason realise they're not going to be playing at the high end of competitive gaming. They'll just play for fun. And taking away some of their choices by "simplifying" is removing some of their fun.

psychotic13

@ZOS_RichLambert appreciate the feedback, if you don't mind would you shed some light on the following?

What's your intended idea with the new coagulating dragon blood?, and secondly do you have any immediate/future plans to look at the armour passives? Light armour in paticular. Thanks.

KisoValley

I honestly think Jagex know more about balancing/keeping some sort of skill in a game and that's saying something. The curse and proc set "justifications" so to speak just make you (you being Zos) look worse than you already look.

Elsonso

psychotic13 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert appreciate the feedback, if you don't mind would you shed some light on the following?

What's your intended idea with the new coagulating dragon blood?, and secondly do you have any immediate/future plans to look at the armour passives? Light armour in paticular. Thanks.

Yes. I can usually dream up a reason, even if it includes aliens and lost continents, but the coagulating blood change baffles me.

Ragnaroek93

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable in pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

You should better not try out medium armor if you think that you are squishy with a shield on a 50-60k max magicka build...
I know that you are a very, very good player and probably the best petsorc (or maybe even the best sorc) in the world but all I see from your posts is that you want your build to be buffed more and more and more. I've played all classes (mag and stam) on PTS and petsorc is one of the most broken builds that I have ever played so far. AoE is insane (destro ult + pets), you are extremely tanky because 50k+ max magicka boosts your shield into oblivion and you can now block with a frost staff on top that and you are very lethal in duels too. My medium armor nb is completely *** compared to that and so are many other (mag and stam) builds. I know that it can be frustrating to fight against heavy armor Redguards but it's the same on almost every medium armor build for example.
I don't believe that it is in your interest that petsorc becomes fotm (they are actually on the best way to become fotm) and that everyone starts playing one (I do actually hate when my class becomes fotm).

dantator

lordrichter wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert appreciate the feedback, if you don't mind would you shed some light on the following?

What's your intended idea with the new coagulating dragon blood?, and secondly do you have any immediate/future plans to look at the armour passives? Light armour in paticular. Thanks.

Yes. I can usually dream up a reason, even if it includes aliens and lost continents, but the coagulating blood change baffles me.

Did you have a chance to test coagulating blood? I've tested it a bit and, honestly, I was more impressed than disappointed. I am aware that it was in a duel and open world is different. Besides magdks usually have low magicka sustain. I had around 28k health and at low health and low magicka all it took was one coagulating blood to bring me back to full or near full health.

Snit

(deleted)

Marto

Betheny wrote: »

[

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

All the older gamers I've encountered who have difficulties playing for whatever reason realise they're not going to be playing at the high end of competitive gaming. They'll just play for fun. And taking away some of their choices by "simplifying" is removing some of their fun.

That's why you design videogames using concepts like "Skill Floor" and "Skill Ceiling"

The skill floor is the amount of skill required to reach a "decent" in terms of competitiveness
The skill ceiling is the amount of skill required to be one of the best in terms of competitiveness.

"Simplifying" doesn't make games casual or hardcore. What determines that is a proper balance of Skill Floor and Ceiling. And currently in ESO, that balance is off. The game is, on many aspects, way too difficult to get into. And that is not good, on this situation.

Mojmir

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

It's ok, I doubt the young people would get far with the NY times crossword puzzle.

Wizzo91

@ZOS_RichLambert

Thanks Rich for the clarifications and communication towards the player-base. Regardless if I agree or disagree, I am happy that we finally see some communication between you devs and us gamers. I hope you continue this trend between DLC/Patch cycles and update us regularly between releases!

Back to the balance (PVP perspective):

In my opinion the armor weights (heavy, medium; light) need some adjustment. Currently heavy is the way to go in most cases (except shieldstacking sorcs or stamina nightblades) because it gives you high sustain, high survivability and high resistances and minimally reduces the amount of damage you can dish out (even without proc sets). Medium and light armor need to be aligned with the strength of heavy armor. This means we need a heavy armor nerf or buff the other two weights.

I would be grateful if could evaluate this!

JinmeiRobeitsu

Make an off/ on option for the crosshairs, other hud elements on Xbox One LOL, that's all I care about.

Ankael07

I suppose being able to stack multiple proc sets is also in simplified category for ''old gamers'' so that they can inflict high damage with less effort.

Mojmir

Mojmir wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

It's ok, I doubt the young people would get far with the NY times crossword puzzle.

On a serious note, I do appreciate the"whys".

Rohamad_Ali

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Yes Mr Rich , you should be at the penny arcade not here :P

On a serious note , please think more on nightblade . We have a Majic side suffering from inconsistency with the stamina side . Gutting abilities like Strife just makes no sense to many of Us as we were never hitting big numbers with strife . There's no nerf strife threads anywhere on the forums . Please , Wrobel said he wanted to make abilities fun . Well there's not any Magblades in PVP having fun I'm aware of . They're working the butts of to create dps and stay alive barely .