The problem with weapon drops in One Tamriel

code65536 · October 2016

TL;DR: Weapon drop chances are completely out of line with the size of the weapon pool.

Illustrating the problem: Getting weapons vs. getting armor

Let's say, for example, you are farming for a set that drops in a group dungeon.

In One Tamriel's group dungeons, minor bosses drop small pieces (hands, waist, shoulders, and feet), major bosses drop large pieces (chest, legs, and head), while the final boss drops either jewelry or weapons/shields. Although the exact details vary from dungeon to dungeon, a typical group dungeon has 6 bosses: 3 minor bosses, 2 major bosses (not including the final boss), and the final boss. Both armor pieces and weapons can come in all 8 standard traits, and jewelry pieces have fixed traits. Finally, there are 3 different sets that can drop in a dungeon.

This means that in a complete run of a typical dungeon...

Small armor pieces: 3 chances at drops, out of a pool of 96 possibilities (3 sets * 4 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-32 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
Large armor pieces: 2 chances at drops, out of a pool of 72 possibilities (3 sets * 3 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-36 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
Jewelry: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 6 possibilities (3 sets * 2 possible pieces, single trait), for a 1-in-12 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
Weapons/Shields: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 312 possibilities (3 sets * 13 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-624 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.

One of these is not like the others.

So, my first question for the developers: "Is this intended?" Is it intentional that weapons are about 20x harder to get than armor pieces? Making these set weapons hard to obtain does bolster the value of the special Maelstrom/Master weapons, so maybe this kind of drop rate is what you were deliberately aiming for. If that's the case, then please say so. This way people can set their expectations and plan their builds accordingly.

If this is not intended, then I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions.

Suggestion 1: Increase the drop chances

Instead of having an either/or chance of dropping a weapon on one boss, make weapons drop in addition to armor pieces on all bosses. That way, instead of 0.5 chances to pull from a pool of 312, we'll have 6 chances, for a 1-in-52 chance of getting a specific piece in one typical dungeon run. Even with this change, getting a specific weapon piece would still more difficult than getting a specific armor piece. But at least we're no longer talking about it being more than an order of magnitude more difficult.

Suggestion 2: Make weapons "drop more intelligently"

ZOS has taken a few small, limited steps towards eliminating some of the nonsensical weapon combinations:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sets that grant a bonus to melee damage will now drop more intelligently (i.e. a set with melee damage will no longer drop with a bow or stave).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fixed an issue where the Berserking Warrior item set would drop in Bows, Destruction Staves, and Restoration Staves. Since the set only procs on dealing melee damage, the set will now only drop in Armor, Jewelry, Melee Weapons, and Shields.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The Town Capture box for Hawk's Eye will no longer drop any melee or staff weapons for the set. It will now only drop bows, armor, and jewelry for the set.

ZOS later clarified their position with:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to update everyone, we only remove certain weapons from an item set’s possible drops when it is utterly and absolutely impossible for that set’s five-piece bonus to be triggered with that weapon equipped. For instance, it is impossible to trigger the Coat of the Red Mountain item set’s five-piece bonus with a Restoration Staff; we will be removing Restoration Staves of the Red Mountain from the possible set item drops in Stonefalls in a future patch.

While some of the sets listed in this thread may not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used, so they are considered legitimate item slot/set combinations.

But there is an inconsistency here. If we are to use the stated standard of "utterly and absolutely impossible", then only the following sets would be affected:

Shadow of the Red Mountain and Way of Fire: 5p bonus calls for damage from a weapon ability, and all resto staff abilities are non-damaging
Eagle Eye, Hawk's Eye, Kyne's Kiss, Marksman's Crest, Wilderqueen's Arch: 5p bonus (or 3p bonus in the case of Eagle Eye) apply only to bow abilities
Sword Dancer, Sword Singer, Spider Cultist, Light Speaker, Knight-Errant: 5p bonus applies only to dual-wield, 2-hander, destruction staff, restoration staff, or sword-and-board abilities, respectively
Destruction Mastery: 5p bonus requires destruction staff to be equipped

The inconsistency is that the initial set of exclusions--removing ranged weapons from sets "with melee damage"--actually don't meet the rather high "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and instead fall under "not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used". I could deal melee damage with class abilities such as Surprise Attack or Biting Jabs, even with a bow or staff equipped.

So what about sets like Burning Spellweave? That set proc off of flame damage, yet it can drop as an ice staff. It doesn't meet the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria since flame damage can come from class and guild abilities, but it does meet a criteria that is very similar to that of the existing melee exclusion.

I would suggest, as a bare minimum of a first step, that "utterly and absolutely impossible" be expanded a bit so that sets like Burning Spellweave or Silks of the Sun don't drop in ice staves and Ysgramor doesn't drop in fire staves, to achieve parity with the melee exclusion that's already in place.

However, given the vast pool of possible weapon drops--104 per set vs. just 56 per set for armor--if you don't vastly expand weapon chances, then you absolutely will need to scrap the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and do much more aggressive culling of the pool: eliminating staves from stamina sets and stamina weapons (with the exception of sword and shield) from magicka sets.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Nestor · October 2016

Wow, I have not started farming weapons yet, mostly because I can get the 5+5 without them, but this would be most frustrating if I was looking for a weapon for a set. And, I am fairly trait agnostic, but even then, how long would it take me to get a weapon of any usefulness under this current scheme?

I under stand the Intelligent Drops might take a while to get straightened out, given there are so many dropped sets now, so at least in the mean time make it so we get both an armor and weapon from the final boss at least, if not all the major bosses.

SolarCat02 · October 2016

Sets with a 5pc that boosts weapon damage or weapon critical shouldn't drop staves, but those are the only weapons I have ever received from those sets.

Stuff like this drives me crazy. It's like the game is purposely trying to mock me.

At least I got a single purple upgrade mat from deconstructing all three of those useless restoration staves.

Peekachu99 · October 2016

I've been noticing that each set seems to have a "fixed" weapon with stats most beneficial to that set, such as the Undaunted Gavel (defending, as it's a tank set). You're better off farming those, than praying for random traits. I only wish we had a master list or data base to consult.

MaKTaiL · October 2016

I also suggested another solution in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/300670/daily-delves-and-world-bosses-on-the-original-zones#latest

Take a look and see if you like it. Feel free to add it to your post if you want

code65536 · October 2016

Peekachu99 wrote: »

I've been noticing that each set seems to have a "fixed" weapon with stats most beneficial to that set, such as the Undaunted Gavel (defending, as it's a tank set). You're better off farming those, than praying for random traits. I only wish we had a master list or data base to consult.

Yes, for some sets, there are named drops--non-random item type with a fixed, non-random trait. I had compiled a list of all the named drops in an earlier thread.

And in some cases, the named drops do help. The most notable example of that is Soulshine, which has a named 1H sword in the sharpened trait. But in most cases, the named drops don't help. In the case of Burning Spellweave, for example, the only named staff of that set is an infused restoration staff.

LadyNalcarya · October 2016

As someone who is farming spc and bsw staves now, I totally agree.
The droprate is utter bs, and freaking training traits are everywhere.

Armitas · October 2016

Please fix this crap, I'm just so tired of it and borderline quiting. I went from farming VMA 24/7 to farming spellweave 24/7 with absurd odds in each. I just want a freaking SW shield and VMA inferno staff so I can go do the things I actually want to do. I have 2.5mil gold and can't beat the rat race RNG grind you have turned this entire game into. I dread logging into this game now because it just isn't fun doing this crap over and over and over again.

Curragraigue · October 2016

Making weapons in dungeons BoE would be a way to increase the pool available for everyone.

Yes I agree though it is hard to get the weapons in the trait required. Same thing with the Cyrodiil sets but they are BoE which does make it easier to buy from guild stores.

Joysheeped · October 2016

Well written; traits and types of weapons really make the grind got out of hand. It is absolutely horrifying considering there are 312 possible weapons/ shields with only a single chance in an entire dungeon run. Please review the possible drops as soon as possible. Please make a game with a suitable grind as excessive grinding is definitely not fun and a weapon with entirely rubbish trait is especially insulting in places like vMA.

idk · October 2016

OMG, had not considered all that. Thx for putting it into perspective, even if the math is not in our favor.

thankyourat · October 2016

Even farming outside of dungeons is bad. I've been farming for a spinners sword sharpened for about two weeks now. I've only seen one spinners weapon in that time. I can't even find them in guild traders

danno8 · October 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Even farming outside of dungeons is bad. I've been farming for a spinners sword sharpened for about two weeks now. I've only seen one spinners weapon in that time. I can't even find them in guild traders

lol, I caved and just bought a couple sharpened axe/dagger combo, so I can get on with my life. Maybe one day I will bump into the swords I want, but the grinding is just too much for me. The sharpened part was the most important part anyhow.

Triipzzz · October 2016

Totally agree. Trying to farm any set with jewlery and weapons as a 5 piece is practically impossible for an individual not to mention an entire group. If this drop rate is aiming to keep the game and PVE alive, I assure you it is only doing the opposite. People are done grinding weeks for one sword, only to get killed by a proc build in 2 hits.

And not to mention when you do finally get a good trait it will be an "intelligent" bow or greatsword drop on a magicka set. (Litch)

LadyNalcarya · October 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Even farming outside of dungeons is bad. I've been farming for a spinners sword sharpened for about two weeks now. I've only seen one spinners weapon in that time. I can't even find them in guild traders

At least you can buy spinner's set...

TankHealz2015 · October 2016

Excellent explanation. This definitely will affect my thoughts on running dungeons over and over to get the final weapon I need... not so sure, it's worth ....

Personally, I prefer the way GW2 does dungeon rewards.
In that game, each dungeon has its own special token that drops and a corresponding vendor. You earn your tokens and save up to go to the vendor and buy each piece. No RNG at all. The more valuable pieces of armor and weapons, etc.. cost more tokens, but you know that before you start. Also, the tokens go into the "virtual wallet" and not your bank inventory.

My two cents.

Thanks for your write up!

code65536 · October 2016

TankHealz2015 wrote: »

Excellent explanation. This definitely will affect my thoughts on running dungeons over and over to get the final weapon I need... not so sure, it's worth ....

Personally, I prefer the way GW2 does dungeon rewards.
In that game, each dungeon has its own special token that drops and a corresponding vendor. You earn your tokens and save up to go to the vendor and buy each piece. No RNG at all. The more valuable pieces of armor and weapons, etc.. cost more tokens, but you know that before you start. Also, the tokens go into the "virtual wallet" and not your bank inventory.

My two cents.

Thanks for your write up!

Unfortunately, people have been calling for tokens since... forever. I would've suggested tokens in my original post if it weren't for ZOS's long history of not budging on the repeated requests for a token system to replace RNG drops. The best I could reasonably hope for at this point is them playing with drop rates and/or pool sizes.

code65536 · October 2016

Any chance we could get an official comment on this? Please, at least tell us if this is intended or not...
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · October 2016

ZOS has taken a few small, limited steps towards eliminating some of the nonsensical weapon combinations:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sets that grant a bonus to melee damage will now drop more intelligently (i.e. a set with melee damage will no longer drop with a bow or stave).

I was soooo happy when I got my first Spriggan weapon in sharpened last night. That resto staff is gonna help so much with that 4k physical penetration!

Asardes · October 2016

I realized a long time ago that farming is a waste of time in this game. Running the same dungeons 3 times in a row feels like going to my job. In one of the more boring days that is

Takes-No-Prisoner · October 2016

I noticed really fast that weapons are harder to come by. I sold off my Spriggian Sharpend weapons pretty quickly, though I got lucky I found them on my first try grinding for them.

Alpheu5 · October 2016

Wow, talk about putting things into perspective. I doubt that even if you accounted for the additional chance from all the chests spawning at master difficulty that the numbers would change that much.

N2woR · October 2016

Started farming today to get the red mountain dagger and 1 handed axe, started at 845 in the morning and came off at 555 in the afternoon. Had a few breaks between but pretty much straight through

I still don't have either in any trait, not 1 drop. 3 hours in I would have taken training or pros, funny thing was I never got annoyed once. I can see why a red mountain dagger with infuse is selling for 325k in one of the trade stalls on eu ps4

ForsakenSin · October 2016

I can agree with that ..

ive spend 90 plus runs doing DS DS1 DS2 VEt ds sooooo many times and NOT EVEN 1 .. even 1 HANDED WEAPON OF ATOMATONS HAS DROOPED!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf

what is going on ... sooo many runs nobody got !!!!! now that is 80 plus runs can you imagine getting sword sharp ?

i took a 3 days rage quit lol i will be back but this is just pissing me off

there is also another guy here khajit who made a thread with each run he dose who is after DKS dagger and he done over 206 runs not even one drop

dagonbeer · October 2016

Not to mention that right now, with the current weapon traits sharpened is the only viable trait. The gulf between sharpened and the next contender (precise) in terms of damage is generally greater than the benefit of most 5 piece bonuses -- you're probably better off running a crafted 2 piece sharpened than a 5 piece precise set weapon.The third dps option -- nirn, is even worse and doesn't drop except in weekly rewards.

The armor grind isn't that bad, because even if you have a bad trait on a piece, you're losing max ~.8% crit chance and .9% crit damage. That's substantial enough for people to work towards, but not enough to invalidate a build.

Sharpened contributes ~11% damage, which is far greater than any other single gear choice in the game.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

NordSwordnBoard · November 2016

The current set up for weapons is like making a person run an obstacle course just to get in line to buy a lottery ticket.

I would gladly smelt down a full 5 piece lich set to trade for just one rng box as long as that box had a sword. A categorized trade-in system could keep the trait rng. Players get what they've been looking for with improved rng; ZOS still gets multiple grind hours to power their soul-shriveling machines.

@code65536 Thank You, those odds are staggering for what I'm doing not doing anymore.

Even Han Solo would steer clear of that hemorrhoid field. It's not a challenge, it's a waste of time.

Asardes · November 2016

RNG is in the game so people keep playing it. Every MMO has it. If everything just dropped the game would be dead overnight.

Koolio · November 2016

Asardes wrote: »

RNG is in the game so people keep playing it. Every MMO has it. If everything just dropped the game would be dead overnight.

Even if you have 4 friends running the dungeon with you it's a 1:156 ratio it'll drop the right trait if they all agree to give it to you if they get it. Do you know if any of your friends would mind running a dungeon 156 times to help. Mine would do maybe twice a day just to help. Maybe 1:200 wouldn't be to bad. Still grind. Still RNG but at least you'll Probably get it in 50 runs with friends.

Kartalin · November 2016

Asardes wrote: »

RNG is in the game so people keep playing it. Every MMO has it. If everything just dropped the game would be dead overnight.

If everything just dropped I'd be able to gear out my characters and actually play the game like I want.

Some degree of RNG is fine, but ESO's is much more punishing than one would want.
.

ForsakenSin · November 2016

Still no wp drop in automatons NOT EVEN ONE SWORD OR DAGGER OR AXE MACE NOT 1 ONE HANDED WP HAS BEEN DROOPED WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!

bt its ok i can just go and buy it instead of wasting my #$%&^# time farming it.. OH WAIT they are all BOP silly me what was i thinking.. back to wasting my time farming for one weapon and hope i get it the right trait

code65536 · November 2016

Asardes wrote: »

RNG is in the game so people keep playing it. Every MMO has it. If everything just dropped the game would be dead overnight.

Then you have failed to understand the point of this thread.

Getting armor pieces in the right traits still requires a good amount of farming. I've run dozens of CoA farms (something that most of the player base would not even bother doing) for Burning Spellweave and am still missing 2 pieces in the trait that I want. That's a level of grind that I'm okay with, though, because it's not out of reach, yet is still enough of a grind that it would take most of the player base quite some time.

Now contrast that armor grind with the weapons grind--1/32 or 1/36 drop chance per piece, vs. a 1/624 drop chance per piece. The problem in this thread about the weapon drop rate isn't that it's a RNG grind--the problem is a matter of degree, involving a drop rate that is wildly unrealistic for the vast majority of the player base.

This level RNG doesn't make me want to say, "I'll run that dungeon several hundred times!" Instead, it makes me want to say, "I'm not going to use weapons of that set in my build because it's just not worth it." Nobody likes a RNG grind, and any "longevity" achieved through one is artificial and comes with a lot of collateral damage in the form of people deciding to not even bother with the content--or even the game.