The problem with weapon drops in One Tamriel

jbradley1989b14_ESO

To get back to the logic behind the smart drop system, I'd be more interested in them taking staffs out of sets that are stamina focused and physical weapons out of sets that are Magicka focused, rather than the "absolutely no way to proc" method.

Even if the 5 piece cant be procced at range, you may still want it in a bow, or even if the 5 piece requires a weapon ability doing damage, you may still want it in a resto staff.

Take for example, the sword Dancer set. It gives you an extra 450 weapon damage on your DW abilities. According to how I understand ZOS' logic, this should only drop weapons that can be dual wielded. But what if I'm running 2 swords of this and don't want to lose the 4 piece bonus on my bow back bar?

I don't know how many times I've gotten a Spriggan staff....

Synfaer

Jewelry: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 6 possibilities (3 sets * 2 possible pieces, single trait), for a 1-in-12 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
Weapons/Shields: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 312 possibilities (3 sets * 13 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-624 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.

This is probably why I have 24 purple viper rings and only one viper dagger (training).

ookami007

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Stuff like this drives me crazy. It's like the game is purposely trying to mock me.

They ARE trying to MOCK you. They sit they're laughing while it takes you a month to farm your weapons because they know they just made you pay for another month!

Remember... they are in it for one reason and one reason only... MONEY. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

Gargath

After single day (12 hours) of farming every content on Auridon, I didn't get a single Elegant Sharpened 1H. Of course a tonnes of useless crap and a single drop of Elegant sharpened staff. Long time farming without better effects is boring. Even doing dolmens or world bosses no matter alone or in group doesn't help a bit.

Rune_Relic

ookami007 wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Stuff like this drives me crazy. It's like the game is purposely trying to mock me.

They ARE trying to MOCK you. They sit they're laughing while it takes you a month to farm your weapons because they know they just made you pay for another month!

Remember... they are in it for one reason and one reason only... MONEY. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

And those who don't subscribe ?
How exactly did you get another month out of them ?
And those that chuck the game out the window and don't come back ?
How exactly did you get any further income ever out of them ?

leeux

Consider what's like for people that don't have friends to farm dungeons, or for which even running a pledge dungeon is difficult due to whatever reason (time constraints, dead guilds, bad PuG experiences, etc. etc.)

DurzoBlint13

while farming for Automotan weapons I had 3 resto staffs drop before any other weapons. 3 Automotan RESTO staffs! Of a set that grants bonus damage for PHYSICAL DAMAGE. Does anyone else see a problem here? And even after my first semi-useful weapon drop (infused dagger) I got yet another Resto and then 2 Desto staffs. This need to stop

idk

DurzoBlint13 wrote: »

while farming for Automotan weapons I had 3 resto staffs drop before any other weapons. 3 Automotan RESTO staffs! Of a set that grants bonus damage for PHYSICAL DAMAGE. Does anyone else see a problem here? And even after my first semi-useful weapon drop (infused dagger) I got yet another Resto and then 2 Desto staffs. This need to stop

The OP partially addressed your point however many magika builds do use swords on their execute bar and many use funky builds such as S&B for DPS both magika has stamina. So where does Zos draw the line and still keep "play as you want". Let's not forget truly funky builds such as hybrids.

I think the mathematically low drop of weapons is a bigger part of the problem
And increasing the chance would have be a welcomed change yet not hinder the "play as you want" many cherish (for some reason though I will not judge).

Julianos

code65536 wrote: »

TL;DR: Weapon drop chances are completely out of line with the size of the weapon pool.

Illustrating the problem: Getting weapons vs. getting armor

Let's say, for example, you are farming for a set that drops in a group dungeon.

In One Tamriel's group dungeons, minor bosses drop small pieces (hands, waist, shoulders, and feet), major bosses drop large pieces (chest, legs, and head), while the final boss drops either jewelry or weapons/shields. Although the exact details vary from dungeon to dungeon, a typical group dungeon has 6 bosses: 3 minor bosses, 2 major bosses (not including the final boss), and the final boss. Both armor pieces and weapons can come in all 8 standard traits, and jewelry pieces have fixed traits. Finally, there are 3 different sets that can drop in a dungeon.

This means that in a complete run of a typical dungeon...

• Small armor pieces: 3 chances at drops, out of a pool of 96 possibilities (3 sets * 4 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-32 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Large armor pieces: 2 chances at drops, out of a pool of 72 possibilities (3 sets * 3 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-36 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Jewelry: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 6 possibilities (3 sets * 2 possible pieces, single trait), for a 1-in-12 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Weapons/Shields: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 312 possibilities (3 sets * 13 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-624 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.

One of these is not like the others.

So, my first question for the developers: "Is this intended?" Is it intentional that weapons are about 20x harder to get than armor pieces? Making these set weapons hard to obtain does bolster the value of the special Maelstrom/Master weapons, so maybe this kind of drop rate is what you were deliberately aiming for. If that's the case, then please say so. This way people can set their expectations and plan their builds accordingly.

If this is not intended, then I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions.

Suggestion 1: Increase the drop chances

Instead of having an either/or chance of dropping a weapon on one boss, make weapons drop in addition to armor pieces on all bosses. That way, instead of 0.5 chances to pull from a pool of 312, we'll have 6 chances, for a 1-in-52 chance of getting a specific piece in one typical dungeon run. Even with this change, getting a specific weapon piece would still more difficult than getting a specific armor piece. But at least we're no longer talking about it being more than an order of magnitude more difficult.

Suggestion 2: Make weapons "drop more intelligently"

ZOS has taken a few small, limited steps towards eliminating some of the nonsensical weapon combinations:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sets that grant a bonus to melee damage will now drop more intelligently (i.e. a set with melee damage will no longer drop with a bow or stave).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fixed an issue where the Berserking Warrior item set would drop in Bows, Destruction Staves, and Restoration Staves. Since the set only procs on dealing melee damage, the set will now only drop in Armor, Jewelry, Melee Weapons, and Shields.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The Town Capture box for Hawk's Eye will no longer drop any melee or staff weapons for the set. It will now only drop bows, armor, and jewelry for the set.

ZOS later clarified their position with:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to update everyone, we only remove certain weapons from an item set’s possible drops when it is utterly and absolutely impossible for that set’s five-piece bonus to be triggered with that weapon equipped. For instance, it is impossible to trigger the Coat of the Red Mountain item set’s five-piece bonus with a Restoration Staff; we will be removing Restoration Staves of the Red Mountain from the possible set item drops in Stonefalls in a future patch.

While some of the sets listed in this thread may not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used, so they are considered legitimate item slot/set combinations.

But there is an inconsistency here. If we are to use the stated standard of "utterly and absolutely impossible", then only the following sets would be affected:

• Shadow of the Red Mountain and Way of Fire: 5p bonus calls for damage from a weapon ability, and all resto staff abilities are non-damaging
• Eagle Eye, Hawk's Eye, Kyne's Kiss, Marksman's Crest, Wilderqueen's Arch: 5p bonus (or 3p bonus in the case of Eagle Eye) apply only to bow abilities
• Sword Dancer, Sword Singer, Spider Cultist, Light Speaker, Knight-Errant: 5p bonus applies only to dual-wield, 2-hander, destruction staff, restoration staff, or sword-and-board abilities, respectively
• Destruction Mastery: 5p bonus requires destruction staff to be equipped

The inconsistency is that the initial set of exclusions--removing ranged weapons from sets "with melee damage"--actually don't meet the rather high "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and instead fall under "not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used". I could deal melee damage with class abilities such as Surprise Attack or Biting Jabs, even with a bow or staff equipped.

So what about sets like Burning Spellweave? That set proc off of flame damage, yet it can drop as an ice staff. It doesn't meet the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria since flame damage can come from class and guild abilities, but it does meet a criteria that is very similar to that of the existing melee exclusion.

I would suggest, as a bare minimum of a first step, that "utterly and absolutely impossible" be expanded a bit so that sets like Burning Spellweave or Silks of the Sun don't drop in ice staves and Ysgramor doesn't drop in fire staves, to achieve parity with the melee exclusion that's already in place.

However, given the vast pool of possible weapon drops--104 per set vs. just 56 per set for armor--if you don't vastly expand weapon chances, then you absolutely will need to scrap the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and do much more aggressive culling of the pool: eliminating staves from stamina sets and stamina weapons (with the exception of sword and shield) from magicka sets.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Totally agreed i farmed automaton 1h weapons they simply doesnt drop so i stop farming.

kadar

This thread needs to be looked at by ZOS.

deevoh1991

I'd like a few quests to have a guaranteed drop of something you are looking for.
I hate crafting since the procs are crap on 90% of them but worst scenario, Only way I can get the sharpened effects, but at the cost of underwhelming bonuses

Wizzo91

The_Outsider wrote: »

This thread needs to be looked at by ZOS.

Definitely. This post is more relevant than ever. Weapon farming is literally a pain in the ass (overland, dungeons, DSA, vMA). So many build combinations I will never be able to test.

I consider the current system as broken and my guess is that 90% of the community would agree. We need a fix fast.

VoidBlue

It be nice if a certain boss in a dungeon or zone was purely dedicated to drop weapons only.

I farmed hours upon hours in a public dungeon and 99.9% of the drops were shoulders and gloves, the 00.1% was a weapon.

So many resto staves and bows, I need shields please!

alexkdd99

You are aware that weapons can drop from regular monsters within the dungeon as well, right?

acw37162

Preach brother, finding sharpened automotan, Drgur Hulk, or sword dancer weapons has been a complete pain the ass and quite honestly I have just given up.

Which is actually quite good for me as it conecides with cash crates which I detest.

Asardes

For most sets I've given up on trying to get the weapons. I simply craft around them. For example now I'm using Julianos and Scathing Mage on my sorcerer - uptime is pretty good with my current stats (71% crit) and rotation, procs even from light attack weaving and the first tick of DoTs. I couldn't get Scathing Mage sharpened weapons so I simply made Julianos inferno and lightning staves and use Scathing Mage jewelry and two pieces of armor (shoulders and hands). The potential DPS loss from using a crafted set and a dropped one instead of 2 dropped is not that significant to justify dozens of hours spent farming.

lardvader

Great post OP!

Yes getting the weapons is a pain! I'm all for working for the BiS but getting armor is pure joy compared to some weapons. I've stopped running CoA on a daily basis but still not given all up.

I mostly farm alone so I don't have to bother my friends with this - they sometimes step in or we can do the grind if more than one wants the loot. However of BSW I have now 3 complete sets in divines - could have several sets of every trait but sell most of it. I've kept a full set of impen and in sturdy if I go S&B in PvP.

I've been blessed and have 3 sharpen frost staffs, 2 precise lighting staffs. So far best flame staff is charged and infused.

I have yet to see any 1h swords but I have every other weapon from this set. I don't know how many times I have done the dungeon now but aprox 150 times. I got the achievement for killing 1000 named enemies in dungeons last night and I have mosty run CoA with this character.

I'm starting to understand why ppl who run vMA on a regular basis ask for a token system....

lardvader

Synfaer wrote: »

Jewelry: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 6 possibilities (3 sets * 2 possible pieces, single trait), for a 1-in-12 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
Weapons/Shields: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 312 possibilities (3 sets * 13 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-624 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.

This is probably why I have 24 purple viper rings and only one viper dagger (training).

If you want a sharpen dagger just run Fungal 2 - Knife of Shadows drops easy - I have 4 of this one and even given several away. Drops from the second boss.

http://esoitem.uesp.net/itemLink.php?itemid=32175&summary

Rohaus

I have been farming wayrest sewers 1 for the Sergeant set. I have run it around 50 times so far. There is one weapon I keep receiving.... 6 times I have received the great sword with precise trait of the sergeant set. How's that possible? Because math...

Lord_Etrigan

code65536 wrote: »

TL;DR: Weapon drop chances are completely out of line with the size of the weapon pool.

Illustrating the problem: Getting weapons vs. getting armor

Let's say, for example, you are farming for a set that drops in a group dungeon.

In One Tamriel's group dungeons, minor bosses drop small pieces (hands, waist, shoulders, and feet), major bosses drop large pieces (chest, legs, and head), while the final boss drops either jewelry or weapons/shields. Although the exact details vary from dungeon to dungeon, a typical group dungeon has 6 bosses: 3 minor bosses, 2 major bosses (not including the final boss), and the final boss. Both armor pieces and weapons can come in all 8 standard traits, and jewelry pieces have fixed traits. Finally, there are 3 different sets that can drop in a dungeon.

This means that in a complete run of a typical dungeon...

• Small armor pieces: 3 chances at drops, out of a pool of 96 possibilities (3 sets * 4 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-32 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Large armor pieces: 2 chances at drops, out of a pool of 72 possibilities (3 sets * 3 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-36 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Jewelry: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 6 possibilities (3 sets * 2 possible pieces, single trait), for a 1-in-12 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.
• Weapons/Shields: 0.5 chances at drops, out of a pool of 312 possibilities (3 sets * 13 possible pieces * 8 traits), for a 1-in-624 chance of getting a specific piece in one dungeon run.

One of these is not like the others.

So, my first question for the developers: "Is this intended?" Is it intentional that weapons are about 20x harder to get than armor pieces? Making these set weapons hard to obtain does bolster the value of the special Maelstrom/Master weapons, so maybe this kind of drop rate is what you were deliberately aiming for. If that's the case, then please say so. This way people can set their expectations and plan their builds accordingly.

If this is not intended, then I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions.

Suggestion 1: Increase the drop chances

Instead of having an either/or chance of dropping a weapon on one boss, make weapons drop in addition to armor pieces on all bosses. That way, instead of 0.5 chances to pull from a pool of 312, we'll have 6 chances, for a 1-in-52 chance of getting a specific piece in one typical dungeon run. Even with this change, getting a specific weapon piece would still more difficult than getting a specific armor piece. But at least we're no longer talking about it being more than an order of magnitude more difficult.

Suggestion 2: Make weapons "drop more intelligently"

ZOS has taken a few small, limited steps towards eliminating some of the nonsensical weapon combinations:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sets that grant a bonus to melee damage will now drop more intelligently (i.e. a set with melee damage will no longer drop with a bow or stave).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fixed an issue where the Berserking Warrior item set would drop in Bows, Destruction Staves, and Restoration Staves. Since the set only procs on dealing melee damage, the set will now only drop in Armor, Jewelry, Melee Weapons, and Shields.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The Town Capture box for Hawk's Eye will no longer drop any melee or staff weapons for the set. It will now only drop bows, armor, and jewelry for the set.

ZOS later clarified their position with:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to update everyone, we only remove certain weapons from an item set’s possible drops when it is utterly and absolutely impossible for that set’s five-piece bonus to be triggered with that weapon equipped. For instance, it is impossible to trigger the Coat of the Red Mountain item set’s five-piece bonus with a Restoration Staff; we will be removing Restoration Staves of the Red Mountain from the possible set item drops in Stonefalls in a future patch.

While some of the sets listed in this thread may not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used, so they are considered legitimate item slot/set combinations.

But there is an inconsistency here. If we are to use the stated standard of "utterly and absolutely impossible", then only the following sets would be affected:

• Shadow of the Red Mountain and Way of Fire: 5p bonus calls for damage from a weapon ability, and all resto staff abilities are non-damaging
• Eagle Eye, Hawk's Eye, Kyne's Kiss, Marksman's Crest, Wilderqueen's Arch: 5p bonus (or 3p bonus in the case of Eagle Eye) apply only to bow abilities
• Sword Dancer, Sword Singer, Spider Cultist, Light Speaker, Knight-Errant: 5p bonus applies only to dual-wield, 2-hander, destruction staff, restoration staff, or sword-and-board abilities, respectively
• Destruction Mastery: 5p bonus requires destruction staff to be equipped

The inconsistency is that the initial set of exclusions--removing ranged weapons from sets "with melee damage"--actually don't meet the rather high "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and instead fall under "not be optimal in all situations, they can still potentially be used". I could deal melee damage with class abilities such as Surprise Attack or Biting Jabs, even with a bow or staff equipped.

So what about sets like Burning Spellweave? That set proc off of flame damage, yet it can drop as an ice staff. It doesn't meet the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria since flame damage can come from class and guild abilities, but it does meet a criteria that is very similar to that of the existing melee exclusion.

I would suggest, as a bare minimum of a first step, that "utterly and absolutely impossible" be expanded a bit so that sets like Burning Spellweave or Silks of the Sun don't drop in ice staves and Ysgramor doesn't drop in fire staves, to achieve parity with the melee exclusion that's already in place.

However, given the vast pool of possible weapon drops--104 per set vs. just 56 per set for armor--if you don't vastly expand weapon chances, then you absolutely will need to scrap the "utterly and absolutely impossible" criteria and do much more aggressive culling of the pool: eliminating staves from stamina sets and stamina weapons (with the exception of sword and shield) from magicka sets.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

As much as I appreciate all the hard work you put in to get the above stats, I gotta tell that you that you just sunk my boat before it even left the harbour. Here I was farming away to get my hands on a spellweave sword and board and now you tell me I have a better chance of falling pregrant with a snowball in hell than to get my hands on that sword and board, and even by grace of Hades should I get one of those Items it will probably be in training or some crappy trait.

Excuse me while I go sulk in a corner!

Zyrudin

I agree that this needs attention.
Some set drops make no sense and its pool should be limited, agreed.

Even two days ago one of my runs got two Bows of the Knight-Errant, for instance.

Qbiken

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

As someone who is farming spc and bsw staves now, I totally agree.
The droprate is utter bs, and freaking training traits are everywhere.

Give me a whisper ingame (@Qbiken) and we´ll farm BSW weapons together

ragingruby1991

Zos should really look at some of these weapon possibilities. Yesterday I spent some time farming both spinner and spriggans. Got a sharpened spriggans inferno staff and a sharpened spinners bow...WTF.

Aliyavana

Rise thread from the grave!!! Still a problem

F7sus4

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Stuff like this drives me crazy. It's like the game is purposely trying to mock me.

They ARE trying to MOCK you. They sit they're laughing while it takes you a month to farm your weapons because they know they just made you pay for another month!
Remember... they are in it for one reason and one reason only... MONEY. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

And those who don't subscribe ?
How exactly did you get another month out of them ?

Your gameplay without Crafting Bag alone is miserable enough to make you pay for it.
And if you're casual logging once a month - you weren't a marketing target for cashgrab anyway.

NordSwordnBoard

Ahh. Nostalgia or Necromancy? I remember this thread. I had it starred I guess because it went off at 4:44am. The dead do not sleep.