"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" topic

Milvan

I loved these scrolls! Nice that I'll be able to level up faster! TY ZOS!

DocFrost72

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DocFrost72
ok right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie

from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp

so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours

if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days


with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob

its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours

7 days


7 days < 11 days

PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

Except that;

1) the scroll you used only gives that bonus for .25% of the time you get from a crown store scroll. For crafted pots, less than 16%.

2) you have to gamble away larger sums of money, and the scroll isn't assured. Pots are not only assured, but for sale with gold (meaning not a dollar out of pocket spent)

3) "pay to progress" is grossly oversimplified, since you can very clearly (as you so eloquently demonstrated above) do the exact same thing without said scroll.

4) There is no physical or even perceived barrier to XP gained, so what this item is is a convenience item.

A convenience item that isn't a straight purchase (unless I am mistaken, of course) with a small fraction of the uptime that is given by crafted items (30 minutes instead of 200, assuming passives crafters would have) is not in any way, sense, shape, color, smell, or form pay to win.

It's "let's make lazy people pay to speed things up." Which has been there since day one...

MissBizz

In my eyes it's not a matter of Pay 2 Win or not, it's showcasing that Zos is willing and able to go against the standards they set for themselves.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

WILL CONSUMABLES BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME AND MOVED TO THE CROWN STORE?
Updated 03/16/2015 11:24 AM Published 01/23/2015 05:22 PM
Consumables will remain in the game, and crafters will still be able to create them. In fact, crafters will be able create the best versions of consumable items.

Emphasis by me.

They need to change the scrolls, give crafters a better version, or fix this support article.

Lumbermill_Emperor

@DocFrost72

1) doesnt matter for people who can pay for the game

2) doesnt matter for people who can pay for the game

3) you can, as you can see from my math, but you will spent almost twice more time

@MissBizz - completely agreed

DocFrost72

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DocFrost72

1) doesnt matter for people who can pay for the game

2) doesnt matter for people who can pay for the game

3) you can, as you can see from my math, but you will spent almost twice more time

@MissBizz - completely agreed

So you started off saying it was pay to win, now you're not? And my math is wrong? 7/11 is not half.

I don't think you're trolling, but I'm done continuing a circle argument.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

Well as you can see the scroll is called Grand Crown Crate Experience Scroll meaning it is going to be a crown crate exclusive. This means it is not going to be purchasable by itself and will most likely be a rare drop from the crates. I opened 13 of the crates on PTS and didn't get a single one of these. So 30 min of 150% xp every now and again is not the end of the world especially when the only way to obtain one is a rare drop in crown crates that nobody is going to want to willing buy just to farm for these xp scrolls. The arguments about P2W can stop now.

Cazzy

MissBizz wrote: »

In my eyes it's not a matter of Pay 2 Win or not, it's showcasing that Zos is willing and able to go against the standards they set for themselves.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

WILL CONSUMABLES BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME AND MOVED TO THE CROWN STORE?
Updated 03/16/2015 11:24 AM Published 01/23/2015 05:22 PM
Consumables will remain in the game, and crafters will still be able to create them. In fact, crafters will be able create the best versions of consumable items.

Emphasis by me.

They need to change the scrolls, give crafters a better version, or fix this support article.

All my agrees!

Lumbermill_Emperor

ofc its not the end

all big things usually starteing from smaller ones

ZOS will look at our reaction
and then the will inject more and more P2W things

Gilvoth

seebra wrote: »

this is stupid

i dont agree because what if we do get new races and new classes added to eso.
i want to be able to hit level 50 as fast as possible and this makes it easier.

UltimaJoe777

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

seebra wrote: »

this is stupid

i dont agree because what if we do get new races and new classes added to eso.
i want to be able to hit level 50 as fast as possible and this makes it easier.

New races will never happen. New classes is being pondered.

Cazzy

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

seebra wrote: »

this is stupid

i dont agree because what if we do get new races and new classes added to eso.
i want to be able to hit level 50 as fast as possible and this makes it easier.

I would put a lot of money down to bet they would be Crown Store buys. If either ever happen, of course.

MissBizz

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Well as you can see the scroll is called Grand Crown Crate Experience Scroll meaning it is going to be a crown crate exclusive. This means it is not going to be purchasable by itself and will most likely be a rare drop from the crates. I opened 13 of the crates on PTS and didn't get a single one of these. So 30 min of 150% xp every now and again is not the end of the world especially when the only way to obtain one is a rare drop in crown crates that nobody is going to want to willing buy just to farm for these xp scrolls. The arguments about P2W can stop now.

@FLuFFyxMuFFiN Do not take this the wrong way, as I'm pretty obviously only trying to prove a point and realize the difference.

By the new standard of "it's okay IF it's rare" is set, this opens up a whole world of *actual pay to win* items... as long as they are rare to get. We would be moving the line for what is "ethical" by Zos' standards to put into the crown crates - one that could be way too far.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Thank you @MissBizz for the link and the quote!

MissBizz

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Thank you @MissBizz for the link and the quote!

No problem @WhiteCoatSyndrome I actually started down the road of trying to find them saying it otherwise (as we all know they have) but that proved difficult, so I decided to check the support section.

Slurg

MissBizz wrote: »

In my eyes it's not a matter of Pay 2 Win or not, it's showcasing that Zos is willing and able to go against the standards they set for themselves.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

WILL CONSUMABLES BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME AND MOVED TO THE CROWN STORE?
Updated 03/16/2015 11:24 AM Published 01/23/2015 05:22 PM
Consumables will remain in the game, and crafters will still be able to create them. In fact, crafters will be able create the best versions of consumable items.

Emphasis by me.

They need to change the scrolls, give crafters a better version, or fix this support article.

Yes, this is the real issue. People can argue all day long against progressing not being equal to winning. But the mere existence of these new items directly contradicts a basic assumption of the game.

Gilvoth

"It will always be items worse than what you can craft"
to me means Armor and Weapons creation. and right now that is not true, the drops are better then what can be created, especially coming in update 12 with better armor dropping then what can be made.

Cazzy

My biggest grievance is things are fast becoming a "ZoS vs Them" situation with their consumers. This is a dramatic turnaround from their morals and principles they preached not so long ago.

It also tarnishes the ESO brand and the dedicated fans of the series.

Cazzy

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

"It will always be items worse than what you can craft"
to me means Armor and Weapons creation. and right now that is not true, the drops are better then what can be created, especially coming in update 12 with better armor dropping then what can be made.

This isn't the case with consumables though. Noone can create a consumable that gives that much bonus XP.

exeeter702

elvenmad wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Educate yourself on what pay to win actually is please.

This is objectively not pay to win. Sorry.

in this case you can pay for something that will increase your progress faster than anything you can obtain in the game, so irrelevant of your specific definition of pay to win this is 100% pay to progress faster for sure.

Doesn't matter. It's still not pay 2 win. Circumventing a grind is not pay 2 win. Like it or not the definition is actually very clear and straight forward. Over time younger generation players twisted the meaning. Started to happen around the time free 2 play games started to become popular in the west, which was LONG after p2w was an established, unambiguous concept.

As scummy as it is and why most devs generally tread careful now days with it, granting shortcuts or expediting a grind is not pay 2 win. Plain and simple, if the cash shop provides a power increase to the player that places them above players that chose not to spend cash and in addition to having no in game alternative to obtain the same power increase is pay 2 win.

If it takes player A 1 week to obtain the sword of epicness by spending cash to speed up the grind, and player B takes 1 month due to not buying the same perk, and the sword in question is best in slot, that is shifty but it is not pay to win.

If the sword of epicness can only be obtained in the cash shop and there is no equivalent via in game (non cash shop) that is pay to win by the very definition. The term was given birth by the many f2p titles from over sees before the time of LoL and the like, and the mobile platform blowing up, that were designed around the principal of getting the most money out of players in pc bang's (lan centers) in many parts of asia, South Korea and China mainly.

There is no discussion here. The term doesn't change over time simply because younger generation of gamers decide to change what it means to be pay to win to them.

Hence the comment "educate yourself". This is industry - genre history.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DocFrost72
ok right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie

from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp

so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours

if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days


with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob

its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours

7 days


7 days < 11 days

PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

If you are grinding 3 hours per day that would be 6 Grand Crown Crate XP Scrolls. How much money would you be willing to spend on crown crates just to get 6 XP scrolls a day? The person using the ambrosia is still going to come out on top because they don't have to rely on RNG and spending all their money on crown crates just to gain a better XP boost that lasts just as long.

Cazzy

exeeter702 wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Educate yourself on what pay to win actually is please.

This is objectively not pay to win. Sorry.

in this case you can pay for something that will increase your progress faster than anything you can obtain in the game, so irrelevant of your specific definition of pay to win this is 100% pay to progress faster for sure.

Doesn't matter. It's still not pay 2 win. Circumventing a grind is not pay 2 win. Like it or not the definition is actually very clear and straight forward. Over time younger generation players twisted the meaning. Started to happen around the time free 2 play games started to become popular in the west, which was LONG after p2w was an established, unambiguous concept.

As scummy as it is and why most devs generally tread careful now days with it, granting shortcuts or expediting a grind is not pay 2 win. Plain and simple, if the cash shop provides a power increase to the player that places them above players that chose not to spend cash and in addition to having no in game alternative to obtain the same power increase is pay 2 win.

If it takes player A 1 week to obtain the sword of epicness by spending cash to speed up the grind, and player B takes 1 month due to not buying the same perk, and the sword in question is best in slot, that is shifty but it is not pay to win.

If the sword of epicness can only be obtained in the cash shop and there is no equivalent via in game (non cash shop) that is pay to win by the very definition. The term was given birth by the many f2p titles from over sees before time of LoL and thell like, and the mobile platform blowing up, that were designed around the principal of getting the most money out of players in pc bang's (pan centers) in many parts of asia, South Korea and China mainly.

There is no discussion here. The term doesn't change over time simply because younger generation of gamers decide to change what it means to be pay to win to them.

Hence the comment "educate yourself". This industry - genre history.

A lot of words change meanings over the years. That's just how vocabulary progresses.

Gilvoth

pay money to get the best weapon or armor = pay to win

Cazzy

Tbh whatever anyone's interpretation of "P2W" this simple matter is they have been making promises they can't keep and introducing new features that they said they'd never add.

To me It's less about this little scroll and more about what this means for the future of ESO.

It's clear to me that after Update 12 the game will be an entirely different game to the one they envisioned and created.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

MissBizz wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Well as you can see the scroll is called Grand Crown Crate Experience Scroll meaning it is going to be a crown crate exclusive. This means it is not going to be purchasable by itself and will most likely be a rare drop from the crates. I opened 13 of the crates on PTS and didn't get a single one of these. So 30 min of 150% xp every now and again is not the end of the world especially when the only way to obtain one is a rare drop in crown crates that nobody is going to want to willing buy just to farm for these xp scrolls. The arguments about P2W can stop now.

@FLuFFyxMuFFiN Do not take this the wrong way, as I'm pretty obviously only trying to prove a point and realize the difference.

By the new standard of "it's okay IF it's rare" is set, this opens up a whole world of *actual pay to win* items... as long as they are rare to get. We would be moving the line for what is "ethical" by Zos' standards to put into the crown crates - one that could be way too far.

@MissBizz

I can see your point. I understand that making something rare doesn't take away from the fact that it would be P2W but I personally do not believe the scroll will give someone a distinct advantage over others. Now if the scroll is purchasable on its own then I can see how people are upset. Now if they added end game gear to these crates I would be very upset even if the drop rate was .00001% because that would no doubt be P2W regardless of drop rate.

exeeter702

Cazzy wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

elvenmad wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Educate yourself on what pay to win actually is please.

This is objectively not pay to win. Sorry.

in this case you can pay for something that will increase your progress faster than anything you can obtain in the game, so irrelevant of your specific definition of pay to win this is 100% pay to progress faster for sure.

Doesn't matter. It's still not pay 2 win. Circumventing a grind is not pay 2 win. Like it or not the definition is actually very clear and straight forward. Over time younger generation players twisted the meaning. Started to happen around the time free 2 play games started to become popular in the west, which was LONG after p2w was an established, unambiguous concept.

As scummy as it is and why most devs generally tread careful now days with it, granting shortcuts or expediting a grind is not pay 2 win. Plain and simple, if the cash shop provides a power increase to the player that places them above players that chose not to spend cash and in addition to having no in game alternative to obtain the same power increase is pay 2 win.

If it takes player A 1 week to obtain the sword of epicness by spending cash to speed up the grind, and player B takes 1 month due to not buying the same perk, and the sword in question is best in slot, that is shifty but it is not pay to win.

If the sword of epicness can only be obtained in the cash shop and there is no equivalent via in game (non cash shop) that is pay to win by the very definition. The term was given birth by the many f2p titles from over sees before time of LoL and thell like, and the mobile platform blowing up, that were designed around the principal of getting the most money out of players in pc bang's (pan centers) in many parts of asia, South Korea and China mainly.

There is no discussion here. The term doesn't change over time simply because younger generation of gamers decide to change what it means to be pay to win to them.

Hence the comment "educate yourself". This industry - genre history.

A lot of words change meanings over the years. That's just how vocabulary progresses.

Ok..

Sallington

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DocFrost72
ok right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie

from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp

so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours

if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days


with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob

its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours

7 days


7 days < 11 days

PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

If you are grinding 3 hours per day that would be 6 Grand Crown Crate XP Scrolls. How much money would you be willing to spend on crown crates just to get 6 XP scrolls a day? The person using the ambrosia is still going to come out on top because they don't have to rely on RNG and spending all their money on crown crates just to gain a better XP boost that lasts just as long.

You underestimate how much money whales spend on crap like these crates.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

Sallington wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DocFrost72
ok right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie

from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp

so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours

if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days


with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob

its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours

7 days


7 days < 11 days

PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

If you are grinding 3 hours per day that would be 6 Grand Crown Crate XP Scrolls. How much money would you be willing to spend on crown crates just to get 6 XP scrolls a day? The person using the ambrosia is still going to come out on top because they don't have to rely on RNG and spending all their money on crown crates just to gain a better XP boost that lasts just as long.

You underestimate how much money whales spend on crap like these crates.

Oh I know there will be some people who spend ridiculous amounts of money on these crates but the I can't see the average player spending a lot on them.

Carbonised

You're kidding youselves if you don't think this is just the beginning.

There is already a motif, the Frostcaster/stalhrim, which for some odd reason is called 'crown motif' on the PTS, hinting that it will only be available through crown shop, or crown crates.

Crown crates already have these exp scrolls that are better than ambrosia, they also have seveal unique mounts (albeit for an insanely large price due to random chance), and you can bet your sweet behinds that they will put everything of value or interest into these crates in the future.

Say bye bye to large content DLCs like Orsinium, say bye bye to new stuff being added into the base game, and say hi hi to a slippery slope of more and more valuable stuff put into these coin grabbing crown crates - albeit at a very low chance to obtain.

Better get yourselves and your wallets out of this game while you can.

smacx250

If you bought 300 crates, you would get on average, one "grand" scroll, one "major" scroll, and 5 "regular" scrolls (at least that is what current testing on PTS seems to indicate). That's 14 hours of XP boost, and only 4 of those hours are better than Ambrosia. At half off crowns I think that is over $400. It certainly isn't "economical" to buy crates for XP scrolls.

But I think the idea is that ZOS crossed the line on what they previously stated about crown store consumables, and once the line has been crossed who knows how far it will go?

Sallington

Carbonised wrote: »

You're kidding youselves if you don't think this is just the beginning.

There is already a motif, the Frostcaster/stalhrim, which for some odd reason is called 'crown motif' on the PTS, hinting that it will only be available through crown shop, or crown crates.

Crown crates already have these exp scrolls that are better than ambrosia, they also have seveal unique mounts (albeit for an insanely large price due to random chance), and you can bet your sweet behinds that they will put everything of value or interest into these crates in the future.

Say bye bye to large content DLCs like Orsinium, say bye bye to new stuff being added into the base game, and say hi hi to a slippery slope of more and more valuable stuff put into these coin grabbing crown crates - albeit at a very low chance to obtain.

Better get yourselves and your wallets out of this game while you can.

110% this. It's the gradual, slippery slope that was clear as day the second they announced "Tamriel Unlimited" (still the cheesiest freaking name for anything by the way).