Please Finish The Justice System

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

This dead horse is dug up and beaten over and over and it all comes down to one thing. Mostly poor PVPers who cannot hold their own in Cyro wanting easy kills of PVE players.

Lol. Me, personally, i'm reeeeally bad at pvp no matter what the game is. And actually i'd prefer the dark side of justice system. It's challenge and diversity what people want, not "easy kills of PVE players".

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Lol @AmberLaTerra right so my actual lived experience is obviously rose tinted, didn't happen, obviously I can't be remembering my best PvP, open world sandbox moments correctly. Obviously only your lived experience matters, got it, just making sure we're on the same page.

Fact is both experiences were common and the exodus after changes showed just how many people actually liked the systems that were in place. There isn't anything rose colored about that.

Dubhliam

Just going to post this here.
https://youtu.be/ymXlmwY8Nw0
https://youtu.be/UC22ZF21Llk

I am currently just over 800k in the Black Market Morgul achievement, and I can only say:
The current ESO Justice System is exceptionally dull.

There is no fun involved in completing this achievement.

AmberLaTerra

The exodos was far more due to the game becoming more a WOW clone then the change to the Bounty hunter system, as is well known.

To try to blame the exodus on only the change to the jedi/bounty hunter interaction is a pure red herring as it lead to maybe 1% of those who left leaving all polls and private server feed back can show that to be the case.

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Edit: If anything the ONLY lesson from SWG's rise and fall to be taken seriously is how bad an idea trying to become what another game is for what a few players want and ticking off the majority of your player base by doing so. A lesson sadly it seems most game producers have not managed to learn.

STEVIL

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

f you're going to participate in something that

a) doesn't require pve gear
b) can end up with pvp

you'll probably want to wear pvp gear. "But this is a pve area!" isn't an excuse here. It's not like an obligation to wear pve gear in pve areas. Especially when most pve content doesn't need you to wear anything at all except your underwear because you can't take it off.

And so, first off, thanks for adding into the turning justice INTO PVP content admissions. Its actually rather rare for us to see the straight out admission. usually its disguised as "its pve but can have pvp elements optional" kind of stuff.

Secondly, As one who enjoys the PVE content of injustice activities, who has both Tg and DB DLCs with their tons of injustice pve content, i for one would hate to see all that forced into PVP content. I enjoy the current casual PVE injustice content as well, considering it as a nice companion to delving, questing, grinding, etc etc as casual pve activities. i dont think it helps the game to start taking chunks of the PVE content and letting it be turned into PVP content and taken out of PVE content.

Thirdly, you spotlight the inherent issue with having non-consensual pvp takeover intermingled with PVE areas. if i am running PVE content now, say questing in a city and its immediate environs, i can do it all on the fly mixing and matching between - stealing some things on the way to get a quest or killing some beggar asking for relief for the hundreth time on my way to turn in some dogfood or stopping to grab some flowers or stopping to slaughter some wolves or a vampire clutch on my way to a delve... etc.

once some of that content gets a PVP TAKEOVER and makes it so that my participation means opening myself up for PVP then i have to consider carefully whether i want to even try that content in my gear setup for the other content or if i want to swap back and forth etc.

The forcing of one into the other makes it likely that some will just not engage in the content.

Changing existing content in a way as to drive people out of it is not sensible unless you know there are sufficient people who will join in.

I believe thats one reason why, for dueling they:
did NO

1. T have it insert into or takeover any existing PVE content - casual or questing.
2. did NOT make it non-consensual in any way (even allowing a setting based opt-out)
3. did NOT make it an unlimited kind of thing and instead put in quite a few restrictions on its to limit overall side effect impact into those not wanting to be involved
4. did NOT make it triggered by any existing content but its own thing.

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

being popular among beta testers or popular among forum goers just isnt the same as being popular among the mass market... but choosing to "never listen to" any significant population is just not good business practice. That doesn't mean they get what they want of course but listen at least, even if you consider them worthy or perjoratives.

AmberLaTerra

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Sadly for you this is not the days of dealing with gamers who are not knowledgeable and can have the wool pulled over their eyes by red herrings and straw man arguments. At least not on these forums where so many of us are vastly experienced in the games we play and knowing why they have become what they have. Maybe your arguments could work on games with gamers who are younger and have less experience, but here every one just stands out for what it really is as a grasp at a straw to try to fool people to your side.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice and just lead to greifing of noobs. It will lead to new players who are trying to steal things to get to their first horse to just quitting the game from being constantly greifed by max levels who have nothing better to do they get their jollies by crushing people who have no chance against them.

It will quite simply be a game killer.

Zamrod_beta

I'm rather in between on this one. I have had bad experiences with PvP and am primarily a PvE player. However, I don't think there needs to be a huge line drawn in the sand that says that the two can never meet for any reason.

When I heard the announcement that the Justice System would allow you to get caught and have people hunt you down I was pretty excited while being very wary at the same time depending on how it was implemented. I don't keep very up to date on ESO news so I had never heard that feature was cancelled until now. I just assumed that the second half of the Justice System would show up eventually. It does feel rather incomplete without that part of it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing Injustice activities being a high risk, high reward prospect. Of course, it would be difficult to implement now that it wasn't put in at the beginning.

I think it would be perfectly fine to say "Hey, you can do these activities and you'll get some good rewards from them but you risk the real possibility of entering PvP if you do so." and allow players to choose to take that risk. That way players who didn't mind PvP but didn't want to do it constantly could decide that they wanted to risk PvP without guaranteeing it. That if they were skilled enough at killing or stealing where they couldn't be seen then they wouldn't have to worry about PvP.

I have to admit that the current implementation does feel a little dull. It's fairly obvious that they had to balance the system around the idea that nothing bad was going to happen to you if you get caught. So because of that, you can't steal anything especially valuable or get ahead using it. There's a limit on how much you can fence each day to avoid the system being too profitable. But those restrictions only need to be put in because there's no real penalty for stealing. So instead, it becomes another perfectly balanced PvE activity.

Without any real risk, they can't put in any real reward. Which just makes the whole thing seem a little bland. And as much as I hate forced PvP, I don't see anything wrong with labeling Injustice activities as "partially PvP".

STEVIL

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Sadly for you this is not the days of dealing with gamers who are not knowledgeable and can have the wool pulled over their eyes by red herrings and straw man arguments. At least not on these forums where so many of us are vastly experienced in the games we play and knowing why they have become what they have. Maybe your arguments could work on games with gamers who are younger and have less experience, but here every one just stands out for what it really is as a grasp at a straw to try to fool people to your side.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice and just lead to greifing of noobs. It will lead to new players who are trying to steal things to get to their first horse to just quitting the game from being constantly greifed by max levels who have nothing better to do they get their jollies by crushing people who have no chance against them.

It will quite simply be a game killer.

the bold *may* be true but in my mind it would definitely be a certain justice content participation killer.

i can imagine the legit outrage over someone finding that DLC full of PVE contentthey paid money for now is entirely PVP enabling content if the admitted choosing to play justice content enables pvp crowd gets their way.

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Every mmo in korea is p2w. But only a few end up with such a failure.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

STEVIL

Zamrod_beta wrote: »

I'm rather in between on this one. I have had bad experiences with PvP and am primarily a PvE player. However, I don't think there needs to be a huge line drawn in the sand that says that the two can never meet for any reason.

When I heard the announcement that the Justice System would allow you to get caught and have people hunt you down I was pretty excited while being very wary at the same time depending on how it was implemented. I don't keep very up to date on ESO news so I had never heard that feature was cancelled until now. I just assumed that the second half of the Justice System would show up eventually. It does feel rather incomplete without that part of it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing Injustice activities being a high risk, high reward prospect. Of course, it would be difficult to implement now that it wasn't put in at the beginning.

I think it would be perfectly fine to say "Hey, you can do these activities and you'll get some good rewards from them but you risk the real possibility of entering PvP if you do so." and allow players to choose to take that risk. That way players who didn't mind PvP but didn't want to do it constantly could decide that they wanted to risk PvP without guaranteeing it. That if they were skilled enough at killing or stealing where they couldn't be seen then they wouldn't have to worry about PvP.

I have to admit that the current implementation does feel a little dull. It's fairly obvious that they had to balance the system around the idea that nothing bad was going to happen to you if you get caught. So because of that, you can't steal anything especially valuable or get ahead using it. There's a limit on how much you can fence each day to avoid the system being too profitable. But those restrictions only need to be put in because there's no real penalty for stealing. So instead, it becomes another perfectly balanced PvE activity.

Without any real risk, they can't put in any real reward. Which just makes the whole thing seem a little bland. And as much as I hate forced PvP, I don't see anything wrong with labeling Injustice activities as "partially PvP".

i do.

i have two DLCs - TG and DB. They are exclusively PVE content, questlines etc. people PAY MONEY for those. Some already have.

Were ZOS to decide to take that content and make it all PVP enabling to participate in it, for me that would be a serious breach of trust.

Imagine if tomorrow they removed the dungeons from shadows of the hist and replaced them with delves?

MMO are living games that grow and change but IMO moving wholesale skill lines and purchased content from PVE to PVP is a bait-n-switch too far.

AmberLaTerra

STEVIL wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Sadly for you this is not the days of dealing with gamers who are not knowledgeable and can have the wool pulled over their eyes by red herrings and straw man arguments. At least not on these forums where so many of us are vastly experienced in the games we play and knowing why they have become what they have. Maybe your arguments could work on games with gamers who are younger and have less experience, but here every one just stands out for what it really is as a grasp at a straw to try to fool people to your side.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice and just lead to greifing of noobs. It will lead to new players who are trying to steal things to get to their first horse to just quitting the game from being constantly greifed by max levels who have nothing better to do they get their jollies by crushing people who have no chance against them.

It will quite simply be a game killer.

the bold *may* be true but in my mind it would definitely be a certain justice content participation killer.

i can imagine the legit outrage over someone finding that DLC full of PVE contentthey paid money for now is entirely PVP enabling content if the admitted choosing to play justice content enables pvp crowd gets their way.

I can imagine the brand new player working in stonefalls, Daggerfall, or Vhulkul Guard on theiving to buy their first horse with barely any money stealing getting seen and caught by a guard and running away now with max bounty due to running thinking they are safe once away from the guard.

Then BAM! a max level justice player slaughters them what little gold they had gone for the bounty and all their stolen items gone as well. They see it as the game completely being against letting noobs make progress and log out never to play again.

This is what PVP justice brings to the table and just the kind of greifing and kills those supporting it want to be able to get. It is also why is should never be brought into the game.

All that without even getting started on how it destroys PVE DLCs people pay for as you have stated @STEVIL That just adds and entire additional group of players who will be ticked off and feel they threw their money away on that content.

STEVIL

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Sadly for you this is not the days of dealing with gamers who are not knowledgeable and can have the wool pulled over their eyes by red herrings and straw man arguments. At least not on these forums where so many of us are vastly experienced in the games we play and knowing why they have become what they have. Maybe your arguments could work on games with gamers who are younger and have less experience, but here every one just stands out for what it really is as a grasp at a straw to try to fool people to your side.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice and just lead to greifing of noobs. It will lead to new players who are trying to steal things to get to their first horse to just quitting the game from being constantly greifed by max levels who have nothing better to do they get their jollies by crushing people who have no chance against them.

It will quite simply be a game killer.

the bold *may* be true but in my mind it would definitely be a certain justice content participation killer.

i can imagine the legit outrage over someone finding that DLC full of PVE contentthey paid money for now is entirely PVP enabling content if the admitted choosing to play justice content enables pvp crowd gets their way.

I can imagine the brand new player working in stonefalls, Daggerfall, or Vhulkul Guard on theiving to buy their first horse with barely any money stealing getting seen and caught by a guard and running away now with max bounty due to running thinking they are safe once away from the guard.

Then BAM! a max level justice player slaughters them what little gold they had gone for the bounty and all their stolen items gone as well. They see it as the game completely being against letting noobs make progress and log out never to play again.

This is what PVP justice brings to the table and just the kind of greifing and kills those supporting it want to be able to get. It is also why is should never be brought into the game.

All that without even getting started on how it destroys PVE DLCs people pay for as you have stated @STEVIL That just adds and entire additional group of players who will be ticked off and feel they threw their money away on that content.

i dont disagree.

Experienced players will know to avoid the pvp injustice trap. Experienced characters already have skills to avoid the gettting caught (tho of course some of the pvp suggestions basically throw that out the window by adding in lotsa new catches and stuff or even pc spotters camping out quest spots) but the new folks just learning the rope fijding out there is pvp around every corner... yeah i get that.

heck, imagine if they got the enforcer first strike rule put in as well i have seen in some proposals that prevents criminals from hitting the guard.

Integral1900

This is why it just wont work, it would kill the enthusiasm of new players even faster than npcs

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Every mmo in korea is p2w. But only a few end up with such a failure.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

Actually on this thread we have seen folks comment on how offensive they find the idea of killing innocents so my guess is some people are driven off by the content currently being that of stealing and killing. So your statement is not true of the current game.

But of course, were they to change it with a PVP takeover of the injustice pove content, there would be a new thing to drive people away.

However, as i have said many times, i would love to see an expansion of the injustice content to add in a justice element with a dlc, full quests, dailies, delves, world-boss or trial, new skill lines etc etc etc etc to add some more variety to it as part of an actual PVE justice content (separate from the vast majority of the PVE content that really is sort of "justice centric" anyway. i mean, most of the time you are questing its about saving innocents and doing good things.)

Tandor

Can't you guys at least wait a couple of weeks until you're bored with dueling before clamoring for another PvP seven day wonder?

LaiTash

So the game should be protected from any changes just because we've all paid for it? Even if some things are just bad and stupid as they are and most certainly need to be improved, devs can't do it because there will always be some "But i Paid For It!" guy who objects?

AmberLaTerra

LaiTash wrote: »

So the game should be protected from any changes just because we've all paid for it? Even if some things are just bad and stupid as they are and most certainly need to be improved, devs can't do it because there will always be some "But i Paid For It!" guy who objects?

When someone pays for PVE content they have every right to expect to play that PVE content without being griefed by PVPers. Bait and switch is an illegal business practice for a reason.


Or if you went out to a Ferrari Dealership and bought a Ferrari, but they gave you a Kia to drive off the lot in would you be fine with that too? Because that is basically the same thing you are asking of all the PVE players who bought their PVE content to have it switched out for PVP content they did not buy.

There is a reason IC is the poorest selling DLC, because people who want to PVE do not want to gave to deal with gankers and greifers while doing it.

Daemons_Bane

LaiTash wrote: »

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

You have got to be kidding........ If this is what you truly believe, you're way lost

bellanca6561n

STEVIL wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Every mmo in korea is p2w. But only a few end up with such a failure.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

Actually on this thread we have seen folks comment on how offensive they find the idea of killing innocents so my guess is some people are driven off by the content currently being that of stealing and killing. So your statement is not true of the current game.

But of course, were they to change it with a PVP takeover of the injustice pove content, there would be a new thing to drive people away.

However, as i have said many times, i would love to see an expansion of the injustice content to add in a justice element with a dlc, full quests, dailies, delves, world-boss or trial, new skill lines etc etc etc etc to add some more variety to it as part of an actual PVE justice content (separate from the vast majority of the PVE content that really is sort of "justice centric" anyway. i mean, most of the time you are questing its about saving innocents and doing good things.)

Yes. The problem now is that it's just hanging there like a severed limb.

So much about it feels...awkward and unfinished.

STEVIL

bellanca6561n wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Every mmo in korea is p2w. But only a few end up with such a failure.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

Actually on this thread we have seen folks comment on how offensive they find the idea of killing innocents so my guess is some people are driven off by the content currently being that of stealing and killing. So your statement is not true of the current game.

But of course, were they to change it with a PVP takeover of the injustice pove content, there would be a new thing to drive people away.

However, as i have said many times, i would love to see an expansion of the injustice content to add in a justice element with a dlc, full quests, dailies, delves, world-boss or trial, new skill lines etc etc etc etc to add some more variety to it as part of an actual PVE justice content (separate from the vast majority of the PVE content that really is sort of "justice centric" anyway. i mean, most of the time you are questing its about saving innocents and doing good things.)

Yes. The problem now is that it's just hanging there like a severed limb.

So much about it feels...awkward and unfinished.

Not imo.
Currently it seems fine.
That doesnt mean there isnt room for a lot more growth and addition.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

So the game should be protected from any changes just because we've all paid for it? Even if some things are just bad and stupid as they are and most certainly need to be improved, devs can't do it because there will always be some "But i Paid For It!" guy who objects?

No... not even close to what was said.

There is no one saying anything on the scope of any change.

But switches between major divisions of gameplay such as pve/pvp and group/solo are on a different scope than say changing a set bonus or replacing a skill.

Taking an entire type of casual, questing and even some endgamr type content making up two entire paid dlc from one of those major gameplay to another isnt just "any change."

But thats what taking some of the steps suggested here, most specifically the play-justice-means-pvp, does.

JKorr

Personally, my opinion only, I would love to see a open world pvp server started.

So everyone who wants to kill people everywhere all the time can go there and have their fun. The pve people could enjoy the content of Cyrodiil and the IC as well, since there wouldn't be any pvp in those areas. Its been pointed out that when pve players group up to go after pve content and shards they are contributing to the total number of players for a faction in Cyrodiil, but doing *nothing* to support the war. Pvp would actually benefit from allowing a pve instance of Cyrodiil and IC.

Strangely enough, in one of the multiple threads about allowing a open world pvp and/or a pve instance of CyrodiilI/IC, the loudest complaint from a poster was that there wouldn't be any pvp players left in the pvp instance. It seems that poster didn't really believe that there would be any pvp players left. They would desert the pvp server/instance to go to the pve only instance. Or that pvp player who was so upset about the idea was simply upset because they would no longer be able to gank pve players attempting to gather shards, books, and pve quests who weren't geared or built for pvp.

The pve carebears could enjoy the quests and game play, and the psychopathic ganking griefers could have their thrills attempting to gank other gankers.[which would get old really fast for them. Not fun when other players are expecting it and want it to happen.]

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

There is a reason IC is the poorest selling DLC, because people who want to PVE do not want to gave to deal with gankers and greifers while doing it.

I wonder why do you keep calling players who just do a completely legal and intended thing griefers. When someone destroys your house in minecraft it's griefing. When someone opens a moongate to lure a newbie into a deathtrap in UO is griefing. When you enter pvp-enabled zone and get killed by another player is by no means a griefing.

LaiTash

STEVIL wrote: »

But thats what taking some of the steps suggested here, most specifically the play-justice-means-pvp, does.

If you've read the dev's notes when the system was still planning you'd knew that playing justice wouldn't necessary mean pvp.

Osteos

STEVIL wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Once again you use a red herring and forget to mention how black desert went pay to win just before the mass exodus. It seems you like to cherry pick the minor causes of these occurrences and ignore the larger contributing factors in order to try to bolster your argument and hope no one see through them.

Every mmo in korea is p2w. But only a few end up with such a failure.

Justice PVP quite simple will drive more people away from doing anything justice

The only thing that drives people away from justice is it's being extremely easy and boring as hell.

Actually on this thread we have seen folks comment on how offensive they find the idea of killing innocents so my guess is some people are driven off by the content currently being that of stealing and killing. So your statement is not true of the current game.

But of course, were they to change it with a PVP takeover of the injustice pove content, there would be a new thing to drive people away.

However, as i have said many times, i would love to see an expansion of the injustice content to add in a justice element with a dlc, full quests, dailies, delves, world-boss or trial, new skill lines etc etc etc etc to add some more variety to it as part of an actual PVE justice content (separate from the vast majority of the PVE content that really is sort of "justice centric" anyway. i mean, most of the time you are questing its about saving innocents and doing good things.)

Yes. The problem now is that it's just hanging there like a severed limb.

So much about it feels...awkward and unfinished.

Not imo.
Currently it seems fine.
That doesnt mean there isnt room for a lot more growth and addition.

The fact that these threads keep appearing is a clear indication that the current system is not fine for everyone.

Nestor

Osteos wrote: »

The fact that these threads keep appearing is a clear indication that the current system is not fine for everyone.

@Osteos

And if you look at those threads you will see the overwhelming majority do not want Player Enforcers/PvP in PvE Zones. Most of the posts in favor are done so by just a few people repeating themselves. Kind of like this thread.

Korah_Eaglecry

LaiTash wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So basically what you are supporting coming to this game is what 1% of players who were not greifers actually liked. How exactly is inflicting massive amounts of greifing into the game to make 1% of people happy a good thing?

Hmm. This reminds me a story of black desert in korea. Back in the beta the game was rather popular, but there was an unrestricted open world pvp. The majority of players began whining on forums and Daum games increased PK penalties to the point when it made pvp outside guilds virtually non-existent. Then in just a few weeks the game left korean top 100 for good. The moral here is: never listen to carebears, even if they seem to be a majority.

Funny how you seem to think the moral of that story is to listen to you when youre the carebear in that story.

bellanca6561n

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Yes. The problem now is that it's just hanging there like a severed limb.

So much about it feels...awkward and unfinished.

STEVIL wrote: »

Not imo.
Currently it seems fine.
That doesnt mean there isnt room for a lot more growth and addition.

That's where we differ but it's hardly a shouting match difference of opinion.

Much of my reaction to it has been what I've seen. Yes...more screen shots because this feature stands out so starkly....the turd in the bowl of milk. Terrible verbal image. But that's how these moments felt to me

It feels like an effort left unfinished when its original design was abandoned....an artifact, like a paragraph that no longer made sense when a sentence was cut.

These scenes make no sense to me.

What would? I've some ideas but many worthy ideas are advanced on this forum. Alas, however, Community does not seem to share the same offices at ZOS that Development does. That's the way Origin was organized, by the way, during the first years of Ultima Online.

But I digress