Please Finish The Justice System

Daemons_Bane

@Dubhliam, a question.. You say

Becoming an Outlaw
Criminals can toggle the Outlaw status by interacting with a Fence. This toggle is available to players without an active bounty and can happen once every 20 hours. Outlaws are "opted-in" for PvP Justice. Pirharri the Smuggler assistant cannot be used to toggle this status.

How does the cooldown/opt out work in that suggestion.?

LaiTash

helediron wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

@LaiTash , i believe next week you will have your justice system with PvP. Just start a duel! Nothing new needs to be implemented!

IC showed that for major PvE content only absolute PvP opt-out is acceptable with no extra rewards for PvP. That means that again 90% will opt out. There is no need to find compromise. Dueling is enough.

Dueling is not enough. And there is always need for compromise.

And here i rest my case, some people will NEVER be happy, and they will NEVER change their opinion.

Why should i be happy with dueling? Do you really think a common feature any mmo has from day one is ENOUGH and we're all should be happy about it and never ask for more? Would you be satisfied if you had a couple of dungeons and PvPers were telling you that you have not one but wow TWO dungeons and that's enough and "some people will never be happy" when you tell them it's certainly not enough for you?

Daemons_Bane

There's no doubt that we need more content for the PvP crowd The question just keeps being how to do it right

AmberLaTerra

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

There's no doubt that we need more content for the PvP crowd The question just keeps being how to do it right

And your compromise is instead of getting new and unique PVP content you instead have to take over PVP content with no opt out? That is not compromise, that is just taking what you want and flipping off any who do not want PVP in it.

Perhaps you need to learn the definition of compromise.

Edit: Apologies half asleep and quoted wrong person

Daemons_Bane

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

There's no doubt that we need more content for the PvP crowd The question just keeps being how to do it right

And your compromise is instead of getting new and unique PVP content you instead have to take over PVP content with no opt out? That is not compromise, that is just taking what you want and flipping off any who do not want PVP in it.

Perhaps you need to learn the definition of compromise.

@AmberLaTerra, Dude you might want to polish your reading skills first of all.. Some attitude adjustment might a good thing too..

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

There's no doubt that we need more content for the PvP crowd The question just keeps being how to do it right

And your compromise is instead of getting new and unique PVP content you instead have to take over PVP content with no opt out? That is not compromise, that is just taking what you want and flipping off any who do not want PVP in it.

Perhaps you need to learn the definition of compromise.

We're actually talking about the opt-out already... Now we're bumping into whether PvP-enabled justice should yield better rewards or no.

Daemons_Bane

Have anyone presented some good ideas as to how better rewards should work.? I would think it weird that the civillians would suddenly have better stuff in their pockets/homes just because we had joined the PvP justice

Dubhliam

LaiTash wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

As for the issues about seeing other players mass murdering and such. What exactly makes your immersion more valuable then their immersion?

Perhaps they are RPing a member of the DB who snapped and has gone rouge killing off contract. That in no way violates the 5 tenants of the brotherhood as a soul to Sithis is a soul to Sithis.

Why should you not liking seeing it ruin their immersion in their RP? What makes you the ONLY ONE who matters in an MMO?

Don't like having to deal with other peoples immersion in the game bothering your immersion in the game, then the answer is simple, go play a single player game where your immersion is the only immersion that matters.

Because it's what people call bad RP. It would take an army to slaughter half of the town.

You do realize you're quoting someone else, while at the same time making it look like it was me saying that?

LaiTash

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Have anyone presented some good ideas as to how better rewards should work.? I would think it weird that the civillians would suddenly have better stuff in their pockets/homes just because we had joined the PvP justice

Weird things are common to any mmo. Like i kill a boss and it's here alive and well a few minutes later. Or everyone and his dog happen to be a hero of Tamriel. Different stuff in NPC pockets depending on a thief is almost nothing compared to this.

Daemons_Bane

No maybe not, but I don't think that it's compareable it's two different categories ..

Dubhliam

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

@Dubhliam, a question.. You say

Becoming an Outlaw
Criminals can toggle the Outlaw status by interacting with a Fence. This toggle is available to players without an active bounty and can happen once every 20 hours. Outlaws are "opted-in" for PvP Justice. Pirharri the Smuggler assistant cannot be used to toggle this status.

How does the cooldown/opt out work in that suggestion.?

It's pretty self explanatory, isn't it?
After "flipping the switch on", you are prevented from flipping the switch back off until tomorrow.
This is a simple measure to prevent possible grief situations.

Daemons_Bane

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

AmberLaTerra

Opps I quoted the wrong person meant to quote you @LaiTash as your idea of compromise throughout this entire thread has pretty much been that everyone has to see things your way and any view other then yours is wrong. 5 AM on an all nighter like not the best time to be trying to quote people here on the forums as it leads to not paying enough attention.

The vast majority of your posts are about how PVP needs everything, but why does that require taking anything away from PVE? Why not ask for new PVP content, or ask for this with a full opt out so those who want to play is as they have can?

Asking for PVP to be added to the justice system now with no full opt out after the release of thieves guild and DB DLCs is as bad as those few who ask for PVP to be removed from IC.

The ability to be able to opt in to simple play it with a PVP aspect and no greater rewards as you are choosing to add PVP on your own is what you should be asking for.

Not for conditions that make PVE content into PVP, more so not when that PVE content is now tied in with 2 DLC's people bought for their PVE aspects.

Dubhliam

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Daemons_Bane

Well, if that's

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Trying to prevent players from bad experiences is a weak argument.? I can live with that, instead of trying to steamroll people.. I like the first part you presented, with the opt in.. But as has come up so many times now, the opt out needs improvement.. What would be wrong with making the timer shorter.? For example, if you want out of Cyrodill, it takes you like 2 minutes to do so, and then it's over.. Why does the justice timer need to be 20 hours then.? I'm not saying it should be instant at all.. But maybe 30 min instead.? That prevents the PvE player from doing a crime and just disabling the system to troll the enforcers.. meanwhile it prevents the enforcers from trolling the thief for a whole day

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

The vast majority of your posts are about how PVP needs everything, but why does that require taking anything away from PVE? Why not ask for new PVP content, or ask for this with a full opt out so those who want to play is as they have can?

You probably didn't read very carefully or i'm having trouble explaining myself. I'm all for full opt out, i just think those who opt-in should get something to balance for the additional risk involved.

The ability to be able to opt in to simple play it with a PVP aspect and no greater rewards as you are choosing to add PVP on your own is what you should be asking for.

Don't tell me what i should be asking for thank you. This one makes no sence as it just won't work. I see no point in mechanics that don't work.

AmberLaTerra

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Well, if that's

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Trying to prevent players from bad experiences is a weak argument.? I can live with that, instead of trying to steamroll people.. I like the first part you presented, with the opt in.. But as has come up so many times now, the opt out needs improvement.. What would be wrong with making the timer shorter.? For example, if you want out of Cyrodill, it takes you like 2 minutes to do so, and then it's over.. Why does the justice timer need to be 20 hours then.? I'm not saying it should be instant at all.. But maybe 30 min instead.? That prevents the PvE player from doing a crime and just disabling the system to troll the enforcers.. meanwhile it prevents the enforcers from trolling the thief for a whole day

even a 30 min timer would work to prevent trolls from opting in then insta opting back out when an enforcer comes near and would work well. My original post on the 24 hours in settings was an idea of a starting point to compromise on details with the ones supporting PVP justice as with a hard unconditional opt out I can support it, but without an unconditional opt out I am 100% against it.

30 mins is actually a much better time as it usually does not take much more then that to max what you can fence to begin with, and if someone is being trolled by the enforcers gives them the option to opt back out without wasting an entire day.

Dubhliam

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Well, if that's

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Trying to prevent players from bad experiences is a weak argument.? I can live with that, instead of trying to steamroll people.. I like the first part you presented, with the opt in.. But as has come up so many times now, the opt out needs improvement.. What would be wrong with making the timer shorter.? For example, if you want out of Cyrodill, it takes you like 2 minutes to do so, and then it's over.. Why does the justice timer need to be 20 hours then.? I'm not saying it should be instant at all.. But maybe 30 min instead.? That prevents the PvE player from doing a crime and just disabling the system to troll the enforcers.. meanwhile it prevents the enforcers from trolling the thief for a whole day

Even when opted in, in my concept, one cannot engage in PvP Justice combat without consent.

If getting accosted counts as being trolled, I guess we are entering the "carebear" realm again.

"I wanted see how it looks, but I can no longer fail at stealing and get away with it easily until tomorrow."
Well BOO - *** - HOO.

Daemons_Bane

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Dubhliam

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Timed opt- outs are also not grief proof.

The only way I see the opt - switch could work is in a confined space where Enforcers don't have access.
Hence Fences.

Heck, it might even work with low cooldowns on opt - switching.
But one day is a compromise.
I think opted in players should get better rewards to match the higher risk, and I can see many players agreeing with that.

The reason those higher rewards should be locked behind a "cooldown" is because with a full opt-out and no cooldowns, players would still be able to reap the rewards by being opted in for a short time, and then simply opt out and resume their careless NPC slaying sprees.
It is a genuine concern for many players.

Killing sprees will still occur, since there will be opted out players.
But at least let's try to constrict the killing sprees to the opted out population.

EDIT: as you like to shoehorn people into PvE and PvP mentalities, then why is it so hard for you to understand that opting in should be a long term commitment?
PvEers will be opted out, PvPerrs will be opted in.
It's not they have menses and change preferences every few minutes.

AmberLaTerra

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Timed opt- outs are also not grief proof.

The only way I see the opt - switch could work is in a confined space where Enforcers don't have access.
Hence Fences.

Heck, it might even work with low cooldowns on opt - switching.
But one day is a compromise.
I think opted in players should get better rewards to match the higher risk, and I can see many players agreeing with that.

The reason those higher rewards should be locked behind a "cooldown" is because with a full opt-out and no cooldowns, players would still be able to reap the rewards by being opted in for a short time, and then simply opt out and resume their careless NPC slaying sprees.
It is a genuine concern for many players.

Killing sprees will still occur, since there will be opted out players.
But at least let's try to constrict the killing sprees to the opted out population.

Giving opted in players better rewards is just an excuse to give enforcers more reward. If people who want PVP justice really just want it for the PVP aspect and not as a get rich quick or easy way then it should have the same rewards.

That is one of the points where all the arguments those who want PVP Justice fall apart. You want to either force it on all PVE players, or if there is an opt out get better rewards to you can make more money killing PVE players who chose to opt in.

Once again you are adding a condition to the PVE player, get less reward or face PVP which again equates back to your idea before you added an opt out of pay bounty and all loot over to guard or face PVP. You do not want justice PVP @Dubhliam, you just want a way to extort PVE players under the guise of Justice PVP.

I may not agree with @LaiTash and how he wants to go about Justice PVP, but at least I he/she wants it for PVP not just to extort PVE players.

I_killed_Vivec

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Well, if that's

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Trying to prevent players from bad experiences is a weak argument.? I can live with that, instead of trying to steamroll people.. I like the first part you presented, with the opt in.. But as has come up so many times now, the opt out needs improvement.. What would be wrong with making the timer shorter.? For example, if you want out of Cyrodill, it takes you like 2 minutes to do so, and then it's over.. Why does the justice timer need to be 20 hours then.? I'm not saying it should be instant at all.. But maybe 30 min instead.? That prevents the PvE player from doing a crime and just disabling the system to troll the enforcers.. meanwhile it prevents the enforcers from trolling the thief for a whole day

Don't worry, there's a simple work around...

Just before leaving the game, opt-in to PvP justice, and immediately opt out. You remain in for 20 hours, but 16 of those hours are spent logged out of the game. Log in for four hours of crime spree, after which you are opted out.

Repeat as required

LaiTash

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Giving opted in players better rewards is just an excuse to give enforcers more reward. If people who want PVP justice really just want it for the PVP aspect and not as a get rich quick or easy way then it should have the same rewards.

More challenging activities should yield better rewards. That's just how it works. It doesn't work any other way around. It's a mmo and people will always choose easier path if rewards are the same, no matter how they want more challenge. That's why people use skyshards/lorebooks addons and complain about lack of exploration. That's why people use their best gear in pve and complain it's not challenging enough. It's just psychology and devs should take it into consideration, that's why the whole risk/reward thing matters.

Once again you are adding a condition to the PVE player, get less reward or face PVP

PVE players don't compete with others, and mere jelausy is a bad excuse for scraping a good mechanics.

Eldorhaan

I don't know why so many people think that if you create a justice system (Player can kill murderer) it will be a bad idea, in the sense of you have to tag to be part of this DLC. If you don't want to be bother by pvp in town, don't tag, but you will lose a lot of rewards and golds and title, otherwise you tag in and have the adrenaline to be caught or to caught player... Simple as that, 2 Factions EVIL vs GOOD, fighting each other for the peace in the world or to put the world at the edge of chaos.... So Simple, and pure pve player can stay out of this...

Dubhliam

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Well, if that's

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Then no.. That's not something that I can geet behind.. Say that a player turns it on, tries for a few hours but has a horrible time, a really bad experience.. Should he then be trapped for another 15-17 hours.?

Such weak arguments.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PvP Justice opposition will NEVER be satisfied, no matter how many hoops you present.

Trying to prevent players from bad experiences is a weak argument.? I can live with that, instead of trying to steamroll people.. I like the first part you presented, with the opt in.. But as has come up so many times now, the opt out needs improvement.. What would be wrong with making the timer shorter.? For example, if you want out of Cyrodill, it takes you like 2 minutes to do so, and then it's over.. Why does the justice timer need to be 20 hours then.? I'm not saying it should be instant at all.. But maybe 30 min instead.? That prevents the PvE player from doing a crime and just disabling the system to troll the enforcers.. meanwhile it prevents the enforcers from trolling the thief for a whole day

Don't worry, there's a simple work around...

Just before leaving the game, opt-in to PvP justice, and immediately opt out. You remain in for 20 hours, but 16 of those hours are spent logged out of the game. Log in for four hours of crime spree, after which you are opted out.

Repeat as required

I never thought I would have to explain this simple concept like a kinder garden teacher.

You start as an opted out player.
You go in a refugee and mark yourself as an Outlaw with the fence (you opt in).
The ability to unmark yourself is disabled for 20 hours.
After 20 hours, you are still an Outlaw, but now you can visit a Fence in a refugee and opt out.
Then you are unable to mark yourself for another 20 hours.

You need to have a clear record (no bounty) in order to change the opt status.

Got it?
Need any more special instruction?

Hell, I don't know why I got dragged into this discussion again, when I know you guys will never be satisfied.
I guess I simply hate the fact that the people keep referencing my concept without having a slightest idea about it.
So I had to defend myself.

Dubhliam

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Timed opt- outs are also not grief proof.

The only way I see the opt - switch could work is in a confined space where Enforcers don't have access.
Hence Fences.

Heck, it might even work with low cooldowns on opt - switching.
But one day is a compromise.
I think opted in players should get better rewards to match the higher risk, and I can see many players agreeing with that.

The reason those higher rewards should be locked behind a "cooldown" is because with a full opt-out and no cooldowns, players would still be able to reap the rewards by being opted in for a short time, and then simply opt out and resume their careless NPC slaying sprees.
It is a genuine concern for many players.

Killing sprees will still occur, since there will be opted out players.
But at least let's try to constrict the killing sprees to the opted out population.

Giving opted in players better rewards is just an excuse to give enforcers more reward. If people who want PVP justice really just want it for the PVP aspect and not as a get rich quick or easy way then it should have the same rewards.

That is one of the points where all the arguments those who want PVP Justice fall apart. You want to either force it on all PVE players, or if there is an opt out get better rewards to you can make more money killing PVE players who chose to opt in.

Once again you are adding a condition to the PVE player, get less reward or face PVP which again equates back to your idea before you added an opt out of pay bounty and all loot over to guard or face PVP. You do not want justice PVP @Dubhliam, you just want a way to extort PVE players under the guise of Justice PVP.

I may not agree with @LaiTash and how he wants to go about Justice PVP, but at least I he/she wants it for PVP not just to extort PVE players.

So you would argue that normal dungeons should also drop Monster masks, just like veteran dungeons?
And how is it fair for veteran trials to drop legendary jewelry?

GIB normal modes everything veteran modes have! NAO!!!

STEVIL

Dubhliam wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

The only way PVP justice would work is with an unconditional opt-in/opt-out.

By unconditional I mean a box in the settings screen you click to opt in what can only be adjusted toggled daily so no switching back and forth to troll. This opt-in toggle should also remain locked until a player is level 10 to avoid both Noobs fooling around with the settings ending up getting themselves slaughtered, or max CP players greifing the enforcers with their high CP having an impact on the PVP when a low level enforcer thinks they have a fair fight. Just like PVP in cyrodiil and IC is not available until level 10.

A being in PVP at "X" bounty is a condition
Being force into PVP by a guard chat if you choose to flee is a condition (Yes @Dubhliam I remember your little fake opt out of pay guard your bounty and all loot or face PVP if caught, that is extortion not option)
Being told just do not do justice content if you do not want to deal with PVP is a massive condition.

The simple fact is a toggle in settings for SHOULD satisfy both sides in this debate, but every time such a simple solution is brought up those for PVP justice are all against it as it will not feed them the easy kills they want but only feed them those who know exactly what they are signing up for and are ready for the PVP aspect.

The very simple fact they are against an unconditional opt-in/opt-out shows the truth of their intentions to grief no matter how vehemently they deny those intentions because only facing people who choose to do PVP justice by toggling it on is not acceptable to them.

It simply comes down to they want a system that is unfairly weighted in their favor to the determent of all others, where those of us who are against the ways they want to implement it would be fine with it being added as content as long as it had a clear unconditional opt-out.

You are quick to call me out.
My proposed concept has an unconditional opt-in:

Dubhliam wrote: »

Becoming an Outlaw

• Criminals can toggle the Outlaw status by interacting with a Fence. This toggle is available to players without an active bounty and can happen once every 20 hours. Outlaws are "opted-in" for PvP Justice. Pirharri the Smuggler assistant cannot be used to toggle this status.

The "pay bounty" dialogue is just an additional hoop that protects even the opted in players from grief.

Dubhliam wrote: »

Heat Levels

• The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals, by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
• Players with the Wanted heat are marked for PvP, making them attackable by Guards and Enforcers.

Once again, I would like all participants in this thread to stop calling out on my concept because clearly none of you are really interested in reading through it.

I will do something possibly unexpected - support @Dubhliam as far as this post is concerned about his opt-out.

his system did not have a fake opt-out extortion - after two threads and pages upon pages. Sure, it started with it, (or got it very early on) but eventually he got to not only the opt-out pre-set (as described but also had a "pay bounty" option for at least some of the enforcer dialogs (though I am not sure its as cut and dried as he describes here - since IIRC if you got heat sufficient to get kill on sight while opt-in i dont think you got dialogs but that particualr bit i am unclear of.)

If you compare that to duelding or to my outlined Consensual Justice Play outline posted a few pages back now, it looks similar in that it has the pre-set absolute as well as the (in some cases" dialog option to decline the encorunter to some extent.

So his eventual system did not have a "fake opt-out" though that was after many iterations in which it had such and others.

See, surprising maybe to some.

Now back to more expected reply.

But it did have what i have described here numerous time as an opt-in-but or "opt-out-but" in that at the same time as it provides you an opt-out it includes massive upticks to the opt-out PVE difficulty without commensurate PVE rewards gains (no reward gains iirc unless you had a dlc and spent skill points but you got all the difficulty upticks regardless.)

This kind of marriage of "make PVE justice less worthwhile" to "provide a more reasonably profitable PVP version with a full opt-out" is the more clever way to accomplish the same net results as a no-opt-in play-in system. fairly quicklly, players will realize the PVE justice play isn't worth the time with the inc diff and so forth and will either move on to the other competing content of the game they find just as enjoyable and where the profits are on par with the rest of the casual play or decide to try the opt-in pvp to try and get play with commensurate rewards.

Marrying "pve justice reduced risk-gain-time below game normal for casual content" to "complete opt-out/opt-in to PVP" is basically just a hair's width away from the kind of takeaway of pve content that you get with the bounty play-in proposals. the only difference is - instead of making some portion of the PVE Justice play you currently have a play-in trap, they just turn the opted-out content itself into un-sustainable.

As a thought exercise, imagine players wanting WRIT JUSTICE.

WRIT JUSTICE: Crooks and scoundrels want to be able to have lotsa fun and make the world more interesting and exciting and challenging for the currently BORING, half-baked, dull, lifeless (add a dozen more derogatory terms) by adding the joy of PVP to for those not too much sccredy carebear to run it.

The joy and wonder that is WRIT POACHER JUSTICE is based on the following:
its just dull to go out with survey maps and pick up those special nodes. Where is the challenge and fun and you succeed so often its ridiculous.
Also, it really is disturbing to some to see characters moving back and forth between invisible nodes picking up stuff, sometimes over and over in one spot if they hoarded surveys. others players shouldn't have to see images where characters gather from invisible nodes. So FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT, lets have an opt-in pvp addition.

if you opt-in, other opted in folks can nodes. they can see the nodes an opted-in player activates when that opted-in player enters the survey target area. The poacher can move to pick them up... but the opted-in character can challenge them tpp PVP and get back any mats they poached.
Anyone can opt-out of the system and concitnue as normal, but opt-out writs get a 50% reduction in yield of what they do now.
:


Now see, Writ Poacher Justice WPJ has a guaranteed opt-out but the gains for playing it opted out are reduced below what they are now. they have taken away the current PVE writ play and replaced it with one much less worthwile but also included an opt-in to a more comparable system,

thats opt-in-but in a nutshell. Dont do the overt confiscation opf content a play-in without opt-in has, instead provide a full opt-in and degrade the opt-out enough that the other casual play is more appealing so folks will have more reason to opt-in if they want to deal with the PVP or to just move to non-injustice play.

it even has some of the same "disturbing images" rhetoric which i will address soon.

Dubhliam

STEVIL wrote: »

... (though I am not sure its as cut and dried as he describes here - since IIRC if you got heat sufficient to get kill on sight while opt-in i dont think you got dialogs but that particualr bit i am unclear of.)
...

Dubhliam wrote: »

Heat Levels

• The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals, by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
• Players with the Wanted heat are marked for PvP, making them attackable by Guards and Enforcers.

The kill-on-sight heat level cannot be accumulated by regular methods.
Only the Flee dialogue triggers kill-on-sight.

Also, I am currently revisiting the concept to revert all changes that impact opt-out gameplay.
Not that it will do any good, since you people will always point fingers about how unfair it is that PvP Justice grants better rewards.

Once again... you would not complain that normal trials should grant legendary drop, would you?
OFC not...
Right...

Daemons_Bane

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Timed opt- outs are also not grief proof.

The only way I see the opt - switch could work is in a confined space where Enforcers don't have access.
Hence Fences.

Heck, it might even work with low cooldowns on opt - switching.
But one day is a compromise.
I think opted in players should get better rewards to match the higher risk, and I can see many players agreeing with that.

The reason those higher rewards should be locked behind a "cooldown" is because with a full opt-out and no cooldowns, players would still be able to reap the rewards by being opted in for a short time, and then simply opt out and resume their careless NPC slaying sprees.
It is a genuine concern for many players.

Killing sprees will still occur, since there will be opted out players.
But at least let's try to constrict the killing sprees to the opted out population.

EDIT: as you like to shoehorn people into PvE and PvP mentalities, then why is it so hard for you to understand that opting in should be a long term commitment?
PvEers will be opted out, PvPerrs will be opted in.
It's not they have menses and change preferences every few minutes.

Letting the opt out be an option that requires a fence would work fine if that's what people want When I say box it's just an example to get the point across..
With regards to your edit.. I use the terms PvE and PvP since, whether we like it or not, people are often in one of the two groups.. It's not hard for me to understand that you want it to be binding, but I don't see why it should be.? PvP is not binding, except for a campaign.. you can leave it whenever you like.. Why should this be kept for 20 hours then.?

Doctordarkspawn

I PVE TO PVE.

I do not step foot in the PVP zone because my opinion on PVP as an activity is it's broken and unfullfilling.

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The thing is, which I guess some people forget to consider, that PvE and PvP players are of different mindsets.. They usually don't enjoy the same things.. And since both of them have paid, they need to be equally respected.. That's why, imo, that we can't trap PvE players in a system if they do not like it.. That's why I'm against using bounties as an opt in, and keeping them there for 20 hours.. I'm not saying they should be able to leave just by clicking a box, as that would create trolls and griefers too.. The way I see it, there is 2 ways out.. Either clicking a box which starts a timer, or by clearing the bounty by dieing.. Simple as that

Timed opt- outs are also not grief proof.

The only way I see the opt - switch could work is in a confined space where Enforcers don't have access.
Hence Fences.

Heck, it might even work with low cooldowns on opt - switching.
But one day is a compromise.
I think opted in players should get better rewards to match the higher risk, and I can see many players agreeing with that.

The reason those higher rewards should be locked behind a "cooldown" is because with a full opt-out and no cooldowns, players would still be able to reap the rewards by being opted in for a short time, and then simply opt out and resume their careless NPC slaying sprees.
It is a genuine concern for many players.

Killing sprees will still occur, since there will be opted out players.
But at least let's try to constrict the killing sprees to the opted out population.

EDIT: as you like to shoehorn people into PvE and PvP mentalities, then why is it so hard for you to understand that opting in should be a long term commitment?
PvEers will be opted out, PvPerrs will be opted in.
It's not they have menses and change preferences every few minutes.

Letting the opt out be an option that requires a fence would work fine if that's what people want When I say box it's just an example to get the point across..
With regards to your edit.. I use the terms PvE and PvP since, whether we like it or not, people are often in one of the two groups.. It's not hard for me to understand that you want it to be binding, but I don't see why it should be.? PvP is not binding, except for a campaign.. you can leave it whenever you like.. Why should this be kept for 20 hours then.?

Because he wants gank fodder.