What is Magicka DK's greatest weakness?

KenaPKK

Typhoios wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

We all know there's no single answer. This poll oversimplifies multiple complex and interconnected issues with the class.

My perspective comes from discussions with mDK players and from playing against the class. The issues as I see them always distill down to needing more reliable healing and unhinging burst from expensive ults.

Perhaps a larger DBlood heal would be sufficient, but consider that mDK's only heal over time is Rapid Regen/Mutagen. That is a hugely underappreciated weakness.

And they are often forced to ult for resources, leaving them lacking burst when a kill presents itself. An execute is not necessarily required, but it would help. Regardless, increased non-ult burst or a less expensive burst ult would provide a huge benefit to the class.

Sustain is strained for mDK in part because they have to spam wimpy heals and noodle whips to do anything useful. Perhaps they do need some sustain love too, but I'd like to see functional buffs to their healing and kill potential first. They need those changes for sure, and I hesitate to give anyone too many buffs at once.

Right on point. Our sustain would be fine if we had an efficient heal. I'm fine with the lack of mobility, but If I'm always stuck in a fight I need a heal that I don't have to spam at low health to get it to do anything. Give me that and a way to finish off opponets that doesn't include cc + ulti combos and I'm fine with not having any mobility.

Thanks. Lack of mobility was an original design feature, so I try not to suggest too many changes to that. Better tools to be able to cope with fighting outnumbered are what I'm aiming at. Dragonknights shouldn't run, but they can't quite hold their ground right now.

I mentioned in another recent post that some added utility for sticking to opponents would help too. Magicka DKs lack a reliable gap closer and snare.

zyk

Lack of mobility

I'm surprised to see so many votes for sustain. I consider sustain a strength of the DK class. Especially for perma-block builds.

I selected lack of mobility, but I do not consider this to be an issue. I consider this to be a weakness of the class which offsets its strengths.

I don't think the plight of the Magicka DK is very different than that of the Magicka NB or Magicka Sorc. At a class level, Templar is OP and at a resource build level, Stamina is OP compared to Magicka.

IMO, balance Stamina and Magicka first and then look fine tuning resource/class combinations.

Burning_Talons

Lack of healing

Unable to heal out of execute range is just sad and the bane of most of my encounters

Draxys

Lack of sustain

I said sustain, but really, I needed a "the meta" option. DKs have to sacrifice one or more of these to be good at others. Every class, magicka or stamina, should be this way. But in the champion system era, the devs don't seem to have an issue with everyone being superheroes. Other than magicka DK. They can eat dirt.

zyk

Lack of mobility

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Unable to heal out of execute range is just sad and the bane of most of my encounters

Aside from Templars, which Magicka builds are exempt from this without a resto staff? I find it easier to play mDK without a resto staff than mNB, but it depends on the situation.

I consider this to be more a Stamina/Magicka issue as Stamina builds can count on Rally and Vigor for heals.

Perpetuation

It's lack of a reliable self heal.

Devs not even going to date buffing mag dk because they have PTSD from 1.5 mag dk.

On a side note I think Wrobel started playing stam in 1.5 shortly before 1.6

Probably unrelated though.

Burning_Talons

Lack of healing

zyk wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Unable to heal out of execute range is just sad and the bane of most of my encounters

Aside from Templars, which Magicka builds are exempt from this without a resto staff? I find it easier to play mDK without a resto staff than mNB, but it depends on the situation.

I consider this to be more a Stamina/Magicka issue as Stamina builds can count on Rally and Vigor for heals.

Yea all Mag builds except temps can but the thing is. Those other classes work well with staffs while the prefered method for a MDK is double S+B

zyk

Lack of mobility

Burning_Talons wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Unable to heal out of execute range is just sad and the bane of most of my encounters

Aside from Templars, which Magicka builds are exempt from this without a resto staff? I find it easier to play mDK without a resto staff than mNB, but it depends on the situation.

I consider this to be more a Stamina/Magicka issue as Stamina builds can count on Rally and Vigor for heals.

Yea all Mag builds except temps can but the thing is. Those other classes work well with staffs while the prefered method for a MDK is double S+B

Many mSorcs and mNBs would love to play without a resto staff too. Like Magicka DKs, we do, but it comes with the same drawbacks. Personally, I enjoy destro+1hs mNB.

That so many Magicka builds choose to use Stamina based weapon lines is an indicator of how large the gap between Stamina and Magicka is. If 2.6 goes live without significant changes to weapon ults, this will be more widespread.

Rather than buff mDK with a better class heal, let's give all Magicka builds the same luxury all Stamina builds have with Vigor and Rally.

IxskullzxI

zyk wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Unable to heal out of execute range is just sad and the bane of most of my encounters

Aside from Templars, which Magicka builds are exempt from this without a resto staff? I find it easier to play mDK without a resto staff than mNB, but it depends on the situation.

I consider this to be more a Stamina/Magicka issue as Stamina builds can count on Rally and Vigor for heals.

Yea all Mag builds except temps can but the thing is. Those other classes work well with staffs while the prefered method for a MDK is double S+B

Many mSorcs and mNBs would love to play without a resto staff too. Like Magicka DKs, we do, but it comes with the same drawbacks. Personally, I enjoy destro+1hs mNB.

That so many Magicka builds choose to use Stamina based weapon lines is an indicator of how large the gap between Stamina and Magicka is. If 2.6 goes live without significant changes to weapon ults, this will be more widespread.

Rather than buff mDK with a better class heal, let's give all Magicka builds the same luxury all Stamina builds have with Vigor and Rally.

How about the luxury that is 100% damage mitigation unlimited roll dodges?

americansteel

Lack of damage

Damage
healing
sustain
terrible music lay overs on videos.

DocFrost72

Lack of healing

Kinda says something aboot the state of mDK when the five catagories have four nearly equal answers.

zyk

Lack of mobility

IxskullzxI wrote: »

How about the luxury that is 100% damage mitigation unlimited roll dodges?

Yeah, it's a bit crazy that the following are exclusively Stam functions:
- block
- roll dodge
- break-free
- sprint
- stealth

This is a huge advantage because none of those built-in functions require an ability slot.

MisterBigglesworth

Every class should be designed like Magicka DK: build for tankiness OR build for healing OR build for sustain OR build for damage. Choose one!

The other classes (especially Stamina) get to have tankiness AND healing AND sustain AND damage, all at once. This should not be allowed.

KenaPKK

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Every class should be designed like Magicka DK: build for tankiness OR build for healing OR build for sustain OR build for damage. Choose one!

The other classes (especially Stamina) get to have tankiness AND healing AND sustain AND damage, all at once. This should not be allowed.

Would be nice to see the other classes toned down. Well, mainly stam...and beam. Heh

IxskullzxI

zyk wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

How about the luxury that is 100% damage mitigation unlimited roll dodges?

Yeah, it's a bit crazy that the following are exclusively Stam functions:
- block
- roll dodge
- break-free
- sprint
- stealth

This is a huge advantage because none of those built-in functions require an ability slot.

Exactly. It's sad how much the mDK is gimped. As people have already said in here, we have to sacrifice something to be "ok" at another thing. Not good, just ok.

Pallio

Lack of sustain

Couldn't find the all of the above option

leepalmer95

Lack of damage

It's a combination of the fact there damage is most based on dots, combined with a lack of execute + the fact they are the only class that needs to give up so much damage in order to survive + no moblity.

Other classes have there heals scale with their damage, dk's don't.
Other classes have a execute dk's don't.
Other classes have high burst skills, dk's don't.

Recremen

Lack of damage

Do Magicka DK actually have a sustain problem? o_0 It seems so counterintuitive to class design. I haven't played an mDK since 1.5 though so I guess I don't really have any recent experience to go by.

ToRelax

Lack of softcaps.

HoloYoitsu

Very disappointed Jules, I expected more from you. Your poll is clearly biased in favor of covering up the truth:

Poxheart

Isn't there a new armor set with a 5 piece bonus that procs on using an execute ability? Kinda lame that DKs are the only class in the game without an option to take advantage of that bonus using a class skill.

Waylander

Lack of damage

I can live with lack of mobility as a design choice. A lot of DK tools are designed for this. Mistform gets around this.

I think lack of sustain is linked to lack of healing and damage

I would like to see 2 changes:
- Dragons Blood - make it the magica equivalent of vigor (scaling off max magica so useless for stam dk)
- Powerlash deals additional 300% dmg to targets under 20% health note: not to the entire whip, just the powerlash after they are put off balance - if you let yourself get to 20% against a magica dk and get cc'd you deserve to lose.

Overall I think Magica DK is actually quite balanced and very engaging to play. It is just clearly outperformed by all other classes.

Respect to magica DK's, you have to work for your kills.

Imagine if there were flame/magica equivalents to viper and veli!

DKsUnite

Lack of sustain

Waylander wrote: »

Respect to magica DK's, you have to work for your kills.

tbh its not that much work anymore.... SoM is actually broken how strong it is. I can nearly kill people with an inhale talons and a banner drop lol. Battling outnumbered in tight spaces is actually alot easier xD

however building up 250 ulti is kinda hard work lol

DKsUnite

Lack of sustain

BTW, do you guys remember when @Wrobel said in ESO lives before 1.7 dropped that the reason people were perma blocking was because burst was so high and it was needed. So he added 50% reduction and then took away stam regen while blocking. And now i cant block but i can still get *** 2 shot by a stam player..... #balance

HoloYoitsu

DKsUnite wrote: »

BTW, do you guys remember when @Wrobel said in ESO lives before 1.7 dropped that the reason people were perma blocking was because burst was so high and it was needed. So he added 50% reduction and then took away stam regen while blocking. And now i cant block but i can still get *** 2 shot by a stam player..... #balance

"Burst is too high, we're making battle spirit reduction 30% more."

*Meanwhile in stam land*

Waylander

Lack of damage

DKsUnite wrote: »

tbh its not that much work anymore.... SoM is actually broken how strong it is. I can nearly kill people with an inhale talons and a banner drop lol. Battling outnumbered in tight spaces is actually alot easier xD

however building up 250 ulti is kinda hard work lol

I wouldn't know, I always just ride past you! I lol'd last night at the 3 brave souls following you into an alessia bridge cubby after you had built ulti on them for 45 seconds... Welcome to the 1 v X video boyzzzzz.

I might get back on the magica dk for a few weeks and try to BANNER DOWN!

Hektik_V

Lack of damage

mDK damage feels very linear, whereas other classes, stamina especially can put down huge burst on demand. Whip range is also horrible as it's so easy for anyone to easily move 5m away from you to out range the whip.

Healing would be a close second but I don't think just a buff to dragon's blood is the answer to the problem. With the way that damage has increased through the years without health changing as much, it is much easier to quickly chew through a player's health bar. So while a buff to dragon's blood would be good a mDK would probably still have trouble with a high burst sNB as it would still be very easy to get a mDK on the back foot and having to play defensively to the point where you spam dragon's blood till you're OOM.

mDK needs a way to deal damage while also healing itself (whip change to a HoT was bad, inhale damage and heal needs to happen at the same time to give you getting zerged spammable AoE).

Joy_Division

Lack of damage

I only put damage here because the class has zero burst and that has been the only way to kill people in PvP since 1.6

But I think their biggest problem is they do not have a way to combine damage + healing + tankiness the way stam builds ant mag temp can.

They can can get each of these things, but not in a package deal.

DKsUnite

Lack of sustain

Waylander wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

tbh its not that much work anymore.... SoM is actually broken how strong it is. I can nearly kill people with an inhale talons and a banner drop lol. Battling outnumbered in tight spaces is actually alot easier xD

however building up 250 ulti is kinda hard work lol

I wouldn't know, I always just ride past you! I lol'd last night at the 3 brave souls following you into an alessia bridge cubby after you had built ulti on them for 45 seconds... Welcome to the 1 v X video boyzzzzz.

I might get back on the magica dk for a few weeks and try to BANNER DOWN!

sadly thats not the case... 1v3 doesnt cut it anymore xD i have to like 1v6-10 to keep up with the stam people in order to make good vids :P

Roechacca

Lack of healing

It's the healing. Everything else can be managed through gear sets. The nerf to Dragons Blood never got adjusted later. It just took a hit like NB's funnel health and was left that way.