The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

hedna123b14_ESO

Nifty2g wrote: »

I am completely unsure if this is correct right now but judging from the patch notes, gold jewelry from trials such as Silk of the sun, necropotence, warlock and so forth are being removed from gold jewelry and/or only dropping in Bind on Pick up at the end of the hardmode Trial, this is excluding: Vicious Ophidian, Alkosh, Moondancer, Lunar Bastion, Infallible Aether, Twilight Remedy, Eternal Yokeda and so forth.

So during this post, I am going to ask a lot of people to sympathize with the end game community, even ZOS, I know the community is rather small in terms of global population of ESO, but it is also pretty impactful on the community as a whole so it's nice to see where we are coming from when I write about this, and from talking, it seems a lot of us are in the same boat with one another - if you are not then sorry

I have been running content in this game competitively for 2 years now, whether it is Maelstrom, Dragonstar, Trials or even getting some Dungeon achievements doing this content is where myself and others make gold from, and I sell my earnings to other players out there who aren't exactly for this type of content, whether it is someone farming potions and doing dailies with their friends wanting to buy some gear to be up to level, or a PvP players wanting to minmax their build with some of the trial gear because they are unable to get into groups and find it unbearable to do PvE content.

So here is where the issue comes in, as you all probably know, Trials are so heavy costing as it is very demanding on potions for every single role, Tank, Stamina DD or Magicka DD, here is an example of how much these potions are, and just for a basic comparison on how much potions are used, on average for the average end game trial group a clear of Maw of Lorkhaj takes 1 hour, which means most likely 50 minutes of actively using potions in Maw of Lorkhaj, with 1 run, and during a raid night guilds probably run it around 5 times, more or less. I am not even accounting for how many characters people have and how demanding it is to have Legendary gear and the whole cost to upgrading gear too.




So what I am getting at, removing our incentive and way to make gold and supply gear to the community, what do we gain? We are at a loss, we do not run any other content just as many other people probably do not like being forced into running anything else than what they play this game for, Zenimax are removing a large factor in the ways we actually obtain an income in game.

And last, I have two options which I would like to give Zenimax, which I believe are quite nice

1) I like the idea of having Legendary gated behind the difficult content to give some incentives to content, however, I do not like it if it puts a huge problem on ways raiders make gold, and the first option I have, is to leave it how it currently is in live. Let blue and purple gear drop from the open world and world bosses, but let 1 Legendary BoE drop from Hardmode along with 1 BoP (How it currently is) A BoE should not drop in Veteran, only Hardmode. Push players to do the content, so it doesnt overwhelm the community with gold gear like it currently is, which is where you guys most likely see the issue

2) If Zenimax are standing by this change, then something needs to be changed about the 10,000 Gold Reward (every 5 days, really?) 10,000 Gold on a cooldown, with the prices how they currently are, this sum is so small, and this is where I believe Zenimax need to sympathize, because I know for a fact you guys and I am speaking to the combat developers, know how punishing trials are you guys know how much gold is poured into them and the strain that goes into it. I think the 10,000 gold with a 5 day cooldown which will barely cover 100 potions will need to be adjusted if this system is going live.

Remember, I like this system I think it is good, and I personally would like option 2 to be looked in to.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

This covers pretty much the sentiment of the endgame community as a whole.

hedna123b14_ESO

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Endgame players do have this type of money, but the reason we do is because we can sell the loot we acquire...what happens when we can't sell anymore?

hedna123b14_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

4 man dungeons have nothing to do with this...endgame content co.platoons require a lot of reaources...what we are saying is that the rewards should be adequate for the resources requested...

hedna123b14_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

They are changing mob mitigation and adding BoP gear into them, both of what you just asked for in your post, dungeons now have 4 difficulties so it has a learning curve, so in future expect harder veteran modes and difficult hard modes.

As for your post as a whole, I don't see what would change if they made 10,000 gold reward more or let the gold BoP rings/neck from hardmode trials boe?

Well, I guess I just think differently than you do.
When I do content, I usually do it for the challenge, the fun and the gear grind.

Making gold has never been really on my priority list.

Hey doesn't want to make profit....he wants to be able to afford the resources he needs to raid...at the moment that is possible, but with the way the next DLC is structured it won't be...

Dubhliam

Actually, on second thought, I would not mind if they made the Wise Mage, Quick Serpent and Immortal Warrior sets BoE.
After all, those are just dumbed down BoP Aegis/Slayer sets.

So there would be incentive to farm the BoP sets, yet still leave room for profit.

Parafrost

If they make all gear bind on pick up, zos needs to have a means of making gold besides just selling items to other players. Like a solo instance or group instance that rewards gold.

Shadesofkin

Nifty2g wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

If we're not going to be getting loot we can sell, the endgame weekly reward needs to be worth far more than 10k gold. That Serpents Tooth needs to be 50k minimum and the others along with it.

I agree, because this is Hardmode we are talking about, the only *easy* Hardmode is probably Sanctum, every other one is going to take some work and having that amount of gold works up for it, the only viable Hardmode completes are going to be Sanctum and Helra

I was using 50k as a conservative estimate, but the truth is, 100k is a reasonable request for completing hard mode content. My main guild can beat all of the vet trials save maw and can complete Hel Ra and Sanctum on HM at the moment (we're working on AA, shouldn't be long) and we're working on Maw at the moment too. This costs us a ton of gold, now, don't get me wrong I have a guild trader I can rely on, but with materials becoming plentiful and sets becoming easy to farm it's going to be harder and harder to gain gold.

ideally what I'd like to see is Every single Boss drop a gold item that can be sold for 10k and then the final boss drop another for 50k on Hardmode or another 10k for veteran. Normal mode of the trial can learn to do without.

burglar

EDIT::: I just read the patch notes; If they make all bosses, and mini-bosses drop gear, then there is going to be a ridiculous amount of gear available by anyone who runs a dungeon multiple times. So... if they allow people to sell said gear, the market will flood with gear, become dirt cheap, and reduce, if not completely remove the value of that content the dev's created. It's their job to keep content relevant so we remain entertained. We can't encourage the devs to do things that devalues the work that they do.

natch potes wrote:

Trials
• Mobs and bosses in Normal mode will drop blue-quality gear.
• Mobs and bosses in Veteran mode will drop purple-quality gear.
• The last boss on Veteran Hard Mode will drop gold-quality jewelry.
• Hard Modes all contain an item worth 10,000 gold which can only be acquired once every 5 days.

idk

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Endgame players do have this type of money, but the reason we do is because we can sell the loot we acquire...what happens when we can't sell anymore?

And it is typical in MMOs that players clearing the more challenging content receives loot they can sell to help finance their raiding. Sometimes it may be in the form of very rare crafting matts, but it is still there.

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

I am unsure of the intent Zos has with this.

SanTii.92

An npc vendor that would buy all gold rings at 10k each

JavaWho

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

Shadesofkin

JavaWho wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

I have a guild, full of players who are less than good, they're not bad by any stretch, but completing veteran content is a challenge for them still. I can't afford to help them in terms of soul gems and potions and repair kits if I can't count on profit from my 45 minute farm runs of other veteran content.

SanTii.92

JavaWho wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Well, I can barely afford it now, if we no longer can sell dropped gear I won't have it at all and I am a raider that will go in and help others learn and clear this content.

200k is nothing compared to what farmers / market flippers have. Talking about millions and millions. Zos should try to balance gold gains opportunities a bit better. Why skilled in pve or pvp not equally rewarded as this market sharks.

Slakk

I agree on quite a few aspects of the post, I'm not fully convinced the removal of sellables from the PvE loot tables is a terrible thing- the one thing I can agree on is that doing trials drains money quite a bit.

This could wholly encourage more PvE dilemmas that some could look down upon such as using the loot trading system to sell gear for outrageous prices, or selling achievement runs or carries. Some of this has already been happening, but it could get worse.
This is only the pts though, there's no real way to know for sure until it's live for a while and some of us could (hopefully) be wrong.

I don't do trials with the expectation of being rich, but doing trials with newer players can be very draining mentally and financially and I don't see anything wrong with hoping for a little bit of payoff in the end.

Moreso, from the potions perspective I don't really understand why there is still no way to farm any particular herb if you're only looking for particular herbs.
With player housing around the corner, I had my fingers crossed they would give us a gardening or farming system to grow our own herbs of choice on a daily basis as long as we continue to water our plants and such cause if there were more potions in the economy, i don't think it would 'kill' the potions market but rather just make them sell even faster.
I know some players that only play this game to do trials for 'fun' and from my experiences this game has quite a few major unexplained hooks for newer players that want to get into raiding.

VMA weapons are a pain to farm, some people take weeks/months to cap on CP and just beyond that some players don't really know what they're getting into when they pick a class that appeals to them.

A decent chunk of the economy don't really have the patience to help newer players obtain gear they need to be pre-trial ready and there's a ton of pointless stigmas against so many things in this game that I just don't know where this will go in the long run.

I really hope I end up being wrong here, but who knows. Just hope ZoS has thought this one through.

Erock25

Nifty2g wrote: »

there is utterly no reward for these groups except a gold loss. Don't you start to think that there is really no point in doing trials?

The reward is the gear. Your complaint could be that potions are too expensive sure, but saying that trials aren't rewarding enough is ludicrous. Some of the best sets come from trials.

Nifty2g

Erock25 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

there is utterly no reward for these groups except a gold loss. Don't you start to think that there is really no point in doing trials?

The reward is the gear. Your complaint could be that potions are too expensive sure, but saying that trials aren't rewarding enough is ludicrous. Some of the best sets come from trials.

I'm sorry what, you realise with BoP trading and the fact that almost all raid guilds are able to beat veteran trials, gear is not a reward anymore, getting gear is by far the most easiest thing now, maybe for a PUG but this is not about that, this is about the end game guilds running trials weekly, around 3-5 nights a week, there are a lot of guilds that do this, they don't make up a lot of the population, but they are impactful of the community as I had said and ignoring this part of the community and removing this type of thing for them, is in my opinion a bad move. You might have it out for the elitist players or whatever, but in the end you are probably buying gear from them that they are supplying to you as we are buying potions supplied by you. Seems like a good mix I think.

Trials right now as of live are pretty rewarding, but how they will be and saying that they are going to be rewarding is down right absurd.

RoMarQ

If this *** of BoP is going live then each trial on HM should reward 100k every week per account.

IxSTALKERxI

As a pvp'er, I'd happily give someone 200k for some necropotence if it means I don't have to do a trial. I don't have many friends that do pve content so it'd be really hard for me to get a 12man together just to get some gear. I don't even think I have adequate gear to run some of those trials in (people already laugh at me when i turn up to do a pledge with my transmutation set on). I'd have to spend money on gear to do pve to get the gear I need, the whole process is just painful.

AmberLaTerra

lets not forget that with this update all alliances will share zones as well meaning there will be no low population zones to farm Alchemy materials fast and easily. The number of those flowers coming into the game will decrease and as that happens the demand will increase more causing prices on those potions to go up as well.

For those arguing that the cost is not that big a deal, how will that be the case when those potions hit 200k a stack? How will new players be able to learn to run trials from players who are experienced in trials when the experienced players already have all the gear they want and have no reason to throw away mass amounts of money helping other learn?

This change effects far more then just those of us who currently run trials, but is a change that will lead to trials becoming dead content with the cost of running them being no where near justify the reward of bound decon trash since people already have the item.

Would you accept it at your job if they told you you have to train a new employee, and while they are in training their salary would come out of your pay? That is basically what this having everything BoP is telling players who currently run trials about bothering to help players new to trials learn them. You have to pay to teach them and get absolutely nothing in return.

juhasman

I saw cyrodill vendor selling golden ebon jewelery on PTS for 250k gold or 500k AP so who knows what else he'll be able to sell.

silky_soft

Yeop basically *** pvp. Might as well all just roll stam and run br/bs.

Personofsecrets

There could also be changes that make potions not such a tremendous cost. I remember 2k dreugh wax during 1.6. If the price of wax continues to increase at the same rate, then in another year wax will cost 18-20k each.

StevK44_ESO

juhasman wrote: »

I saw cyrodill vendor selling golden ebon jewelery on PTS for 250k gold or 500k AP so who knows what else he'll be able to sell.

If this is part of one Tamriel it's an absolute slap in the face to the endgame PvE community. It looks like ZoS saying that gear currently from trials should be available for gold. But that the people running those trials should not be allowed to sell them for profit. Hell we don't even make much profit. Most of the money earned by endgame PvErs already gets funnel right back into the economy.

Personofsecrets

Essence of Health have gotten to be so expensive that I have started to use ravaging potions.

idk

JavaWho wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

What I find odd, 2 years ago Zos shut out the casual guilds from Trials, made it extremely hard for them only having one real difficulty level (HM on final boss does not count) and only 36 rezes before they had to reform.

Fast forward to today and they have added two versions of all trials to provide a difficulty level to meet the skills of a large number of guilds which I thought was good for the entire community. Now I think they are on the brink of alienating the serious raiders.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

I have a guild, full of players who are less than good, they're not bad by any stretch, but completing veteran content is a challenge for them still. I can't afford to help them in terms of soul gems and potions and repair kits if I can't count on profit from my 45 minute farm runs of other veteran content.

This reply is good to see. It does not matter the level of the guild, the cost is still high and on some even higher if they are having to help members craft gear, upgrade it and maybe even provide good pots for them.

I really feel this change on the PTS is a negative for the entire community.

Emma_Overload

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

Humatiel

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

By that logic though your essentially agreeing with ZoS, the entire structural point of the argument is that these gear sets are locked into trials but then can be sold outside of it. Albeit without the Vet condition.

Emma_Overload

Humatiel wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

By that logic though your essentially agreeing with ZoS, the entire structural point of the argument is that these gear sets are locked into trials but then can be sold outside of it. Albeit without the Vet condition.

Well, if it was up to me, the Celestial motif would drop from delve and world bosses in Craglorn or something like that. But ZOS is locking it behind a Trial for some reason... no need to make the situation WORSE by forcing it into Vet Trials only.

Shadesofkin

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

What I find odd, 2 years ago Zos shut out the casual guilds from Trials, made it extremely hard for them only having one real difficulty level (HM on final boss does not count) and only 36 rezes before they had to reform.

Fast forward to today and they have added two versions of all trials to provide a difficulty level to meet the skills of a large number of guilds which I thought was good for the entire community. Now I think they are on the brink of alienating the serious raiders.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This will have a negative trickle down affect as well. Many players that run the vet trials with raiding guilds also run with more social guilds. This helps more players learn how to run through this content and enjoy more of the game. Granted, they do it because they like the people they run with, however, remove some of the benefit and it will likely happen less.

This is right on the mark, many of my resources go to helping others along with the resources of other raiders. If we can't afford the resources it will indeed trickle down to the remainder of the community.

I have a guild, full of players who are less than good, they're not bad by any stretch, but completing veteran content is a challenge for them still. I can't afford to help them in terms of soul gems and potions and repair kits if I can't count on profit from my 45 minute farm runs of other veteran content.

This reply is good to see. It does not matter the level of the guild, the cost is still high and on some even higher if they are having to help members craft gear, upgrade it and maybe even provide good pots for them.

I really feel this change on the PTS is a negative for the entire community.

And this is why, if we aren't going to have bind on equip sets available for trial runs, then I suggest we have blue and purple versions of the end boss reward on every boss. Serpents tooth that drops from Hardmode but at lesser values for every boss on Veteran content. Blue and Purple trophies that sell for 2500-5000 gold which will offset the cost and give trial runners something that compensates for the cost.

Im all for End Boss Hardmode granted gold items once a week, and I can see a point where I'm comfortable with with only BOP gear in dungeons and trials so long as (all) bosses drop something I can sell to a vendor to recoup my total costs and turn a small profit.

Humatiel

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

By that logic though your essentially agreeing with ZoS, the entire structural point of the argument is that these gear sets are locked into trials but then can be sold outside of it. Albeit without the Vet condition.

Well, if it was up to me, the Celestial motif would drop from delve and world bosses in Craglorn or something like that. But ZOS is locking it behind a Trial for some reason... no need to make the situation WORSE by forcing it into Vet Trials only.

for what it's worth I am in agreement that motif pages shouldn't be locked into trials. That being said I also believe that the various gear coming out of normal trials right now should be vr15 and vet trials should drop vr16

I am curious though, you appear to be more of a "well rounded" player such as it is. How would you provide a way for trials to be profitable (average 20-30k+ per vet run HM) without it disrupting your gameplay to any great extent?