The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

altemriel

Or at least ZOS should make all BOP items BOE and sellable and tradable, that would be a fair deal with ZOS!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

potirondb16_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

Trial has been in a really bad state since IC, it's only with Shadow of the Hist that they got back on track and that people start to regain interest for them and it's all thanks to the gear it drops. So... not sure if I should say dungeon are fine because they got monster helmet... but I believe that would only be thrash talk so !

Erock25 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

there is utterly no reward for these groups except a gold loss. Don't you start to think that there is really no point in doing trials?

The reward is the gear. Your complaint could be that potions are too expensive sure, but saying that trials aren't rewarding enough is ludicrous. Some of the best sets come from trials.

That's still a limited view, yes gear is nice but for 1 hardcord runner who gets the set they want there's a 1000 still looking for the missing pieces. So yes gear is the reward but at the end if it's the only reward a lot of people won't feel that good about it for a long time !

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

By that logic though your essentially agreeing with ZoS, the entire structural point of the argument is that these gear sets are locked into trials but then can be sold outside of it. Albeit without the Vet condition.

Well, if it was up to me, the Celestial motif would drop from delve and world bosses in Craglorn or something like that. But ZOS is locking it behind a Trial for some reason... no need to make the situation WORSE by forcing it into Vet Trials only.

I don't think anyone wants it. Not even the raiding communities, all we care usually is raiding and get thing done.

Tonnopesce

Unfortunatly every 10 "pros" that run content there is 10k people, who constantly farm every instance using as much exploits as possible, filling the market with tons of jewels/weapons/armor piece and i dont feel that this is right.

Something that can go in the middle is to make Vet content drops, boe while normal/easymode bop, it will avoid the brainless farming but it will give the trials groups the chance to earn a good gold.

Eweroun

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

hmmm.... raiding at least 4 nights a week ... never paid for potions... oh an yes, i use them..
if you take some time to pick some flowers... it's not that hard...
(yesterday I got my precious needed flowers with a survey report... easy one this week)

wandering the lands of Tamriel is quite relaxing!! takes away the stress of real life... give it a try and spend your precious earned gold on other things

Mojmir

Maybe it's just me but I've been making a fortune selling a lot of stuff in game,buying pots and food is chump change compared to what I make.

Nifty2g

Eweroun wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

hmmm.... raiding at least 4 nights a week ... never paid for potions... oh an yes, i use them..
if you take some time to pick some flowers... it's not that hard...
(yesterday I got my precious needed flowers with a survey report... easy one this week)

wandering the lands of Tamriel is quite relaxing!! takes away the stress of real life... give it a try and spend your precious earned gold on other things

Not everyone likes to farm, some people only have time to log on and raid

Sile

Nifty is 100% correct on the removal of BOE being a bad deal.

Not everyone likes to PVE for gear, indeed some PvPers are really belly aching about it.

It was a good way to get the two facets of the game communities to interact with each other, and it allows everyone to enjoy the game their way. People make coin selling pieces that drop, people don't have to grind dungeons 100 times to get the pvp loadout they want.

ryanborror

I think this change was made a becaus a lot of trial sets like sun and warlock are now in dungeons and overland zones and trials will now only have vicious serpent, aether, yokeda? And these sets have always been bind on pickup. I think, like a lot of what they do, they made a change that causes them to change even more things and in doing so they don't think of its effects. Even if trial sets go back to boe there will be considerably less gold to be made with the majority of the other sets moved to dungeons. Although it will be nice to not get any more dark stride or nikolus pieces. But by doing what they're doing they are destroying the longevity of end game. All the good guilds will get the gear and scores within the first month or so of the patch and then there's not much incentive to continue doing anything, especially if we can't afford it. This needs to be fixed or we will lose our end game guilds

hedna123b14_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

there is utterly no reward for these groups except a gold loss. Don't you start to think that there is really no point in doing trials?

The reward is the gear. Your complaint could be that potions are too expensive sure, but saying that trials aren't rewarding enough is ludicrous. Some of the best sets come from trials.

...you do understand that the whole system of Leaderboards is based on rerunning the same content for a better and better score. What happens when all of the members of my guild have obtained all of the sets they want from a tria? Those OP sets you are talking g about are now in our possession. Now why would we go back into trials? The game encourages players replaying all content even if the actual rewards can't be sold or benefited from. Why not make it really expensive instead.

Cypriot122

Thanks for this Nifty. I heard they were introducing some sets dropping from dungeons, however, only gold rewards from end game content. How am I, as a PvPer, going to get my gold jewellery now? I know sooooooo many DKs wanting silks of the sun jewellery and they can't find them anywhere, after this patch is released they will never get them!!
Also, Master weapons PLEAASEEEEEEE bring them back to pvp rewards! To get a group of PvPers to grind through DSA is a nightmare and can take HOURS. I would much rather wait 30 days for a chance to get the reward then spend 4hours grinding through DSA.

Bisenberger96

The big issue here is that ZOS is doing this so people are forced to run content to get the items they want. However, if raiders are starved of coin, difficult content such as vet trials cannot be run as much. If this system is going to be implemented, there needs to be a way for raiders to make money off of trials. This could be as simple as adding a 10k gold reward at the end of every hard mode completion of a trial, or vastly increasing the amount npc vendors will buy gold jewelry at (right now it's like 52 gold or something ridiculously low).

Nifty2g

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
I updated the OP for an option 3, I like the idea of legendary loot selling for more at vendors

stevepdodson_ESO888

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Endgame players do have this type of money, but the reason we do is because we can sell the loot we acquire...what happens when we can't sell anymore?

you become like the rest of us

stevepdodson_ESO888

there was a lot of posts to read through, so i don't know if someone mentioned it already, but that gold jewellery is going to be on sale at the Cyrodiil vendor (500K AP / 250K gold) and this is probably the reason why it will be BoP so a massive gold sink can be created

Eweroun

Nifty2g wrote: »

Eweroun wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

hmmm.... raiding at least 4 nights a week ... never paid for potions... oh an yes, i use them..
if you take some time to pick some flowers... it's not that hard...
(yesterday I got my precious needed flowers with a survey report... easy one this week)

wandering the lands of Tamriel is quite relaxing!! takes away the stress of real life... give it a try and spend your precious earned gold on other things

Not everyone likes to farm, some people only have time to log on and raid

takes me 10-15 minutes to get necessary stuff for potions... you can hardly call that farming, no?

Destruent

Great Posts @Nifty2g , just want to add, that potion prices on EU/PC are ~2x as high as on NA-server from what i've seen. I really hope this system changes untill it goes live, it's a horrible decission.

Eweroun

Sile wrote: »

Not everyone likes to PVE for gear, indeed some PvPers are really belly aching about it.

Same way around, not everybody likes to PVP as well, yet PVE'ers have to bear all the changes caused by the PVP-crybabies...
so time PVP'ers deal with it once... you can't get everything you want...

@Sile don't take this personal, pls, definitly don't meant to be

Joysheeped

Thanks @Nifty2g for the post, I really hope they can listen to one of the bests raiders like you.

ZoS, please hear us out, this will only do more harm than good to the raiding community (and thus to the whole game).

I live on (potion) cool down (-- @JavaWho). For me the only time I do not use Spell Power/ Weapon Power Potions all the time is when I am doing vMA and just aiming for weapons but not the best scores (sharpened axe never drops) because I only have so much potions to spare so I would rather use it when I am in a raid because I want to give my best to my team since everyone is also giving their best which I believe strongly that this is what a raid meant to be -- everyone giving their best and completing a seemingly impossible content.

By removing BoE drops in dungeons and trials, you are eliminating most of our income which is used to cover our losses in soul gems (and please fix the issue that the Master Restoration Staff eating too many soul gems, this makes our healers suffer so much), repairs and potions. Thus, as many of us already said, it is impossible for us to cover the cost in long term. This forces us to farm gold and materials which will take more than an hour every day (which is definitely still far far from enough as the materials' costs are climbing and it will only get worse in One Tamriel). Since we cannot play this game 24/ 7, the only options are either to stop using potions which makes your performance so much worse or simply raid less. Either way, you are poisoning the raiding community.

Moreover, please don't forget those who have been working so hard in assisting the raiding community to flourish. The leaders in trial training guilds are already in a very tough condition because they have to run in their cores (to get more practices) and show people how a trial is done with the latter being much more expensive and yet very vital to this game. Without @JavaWho and her guild I believe I will never have a chance to taste how fun end-game trials would be and thus definitely not be as good as I am today.

Please, revert this change if necessary but do not let this go into live because I really hate to see this community suffer so much from the need of excessive farming and having no more spare resources for the new raiders.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

code65536

Adding more gold to the pot, while nice, won't solve the fundamental underlying problem: supply is just way out of whack with demand.

We must fix the supply-and-demand problem first. As for the rewards of doing trials, I would like that too (they're not mutually-exclusive solutions), but it's not going to fix the root problem, and injecting more gold into the mix will just inflate prices even higher.

Emma_Overload

Humatiel wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Xrucible wrote: »

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

LOL, that's not "balanced". By making the motifs cost something like 250K per page, all you are doing is offloading the cost of doing Vet Trials onto some OTHER group of players, like crafters for example. Why should I have to grind for days to buy a motif that some guy got in 2 hours?

Celestial motifs are already going to be pricey, so making them cost more is just ridiculous.

By that logic though your essentially agreeing with ZoS, the entire structural point of the argument is that these gear sets are locked into trials but then can be sold outside of it. Albeit without the Vet condition.

Well, if it was up to me, the Celestial motif would drop from delve and world bosses in Craglorn or something like that. But ZOS is locking it behind a Trial for some reason... no need to make the situation WORSE by forcing it into Vet Trials only.

for what it's worth I am in agreement that motif pages shouldn't be locked into trials. That being said I also believe that the various gear coming out of normal trials right now should be vr15 and vet trials should drop vr16

I am curious though, you appear to be more of a "well rounded" player such as it is. How would you provide a way for trials to be profitable (average 20-30k+ per vet run HM) without it disrupting your gameplay to any great extent?

Simple! They should just have a giant gold payout drop from the Vet Trial final boss chest... something like 50K gold. Nobody would complain about that.

AJTC5000

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Well, if it was up to me, the Celestial motif would drop from delve and world bosses in Craglorn or something like that. But ZOS is locking it behind a Trial for some reason... no need to make the situation WORSE by forcing it into Vet Trials only.

They can't do this with Celestial because that's what they're doing with Yokudan.

Sallington

This is just another fantastic example of ZOS fixing what isn't broken.

Who knows how this was made a priority over the countless other things that actually need some improvements.

AJTC5000

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

Sallington

AJTC5000 wrote: »

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

Most people raid to do content with friends. Some do it to make money (which is going away now). Some do it to gear up for PvP.

The problem is that it is very expensive to gear up and have the potions you need for competitive raiding. The solution used to be the sell-able BoE drops you'd get from Trials. This thread was made because that source of income is going away, so now the raiding will be a large net loss as far as gold is concerned.

If I want to farm mats for 3 hours every single day just to raid, I'll go back to 2005 and play WoW.

AmberLaTerra

AJTC5000 wrote: »

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

I raid to help my guild mates realize the content can be completed once learned as I am in mostly social guilds and I will admit I have not been doing Vet raids long myself and am far from a rich player. All the BoP change is going to do to me is make me too poor to afford to do that anymore as at my own current skill level the only reason I am making any money from raiding at all is that I take the time to farm about 50% of the supplies I need and spend most of what I get in drops on the other 50%. This is not counting the cost of supplies I give others if they need them.

In a good week with lucky drops I may make 60k, on a bad week drop wise I am lucky to break even. If I wanted to raid to make money I would join a raid guild, but I am happy in my social guilds and one trading guild and prefer to be able to help other players learn things.

These changes will make me unable to do that so I will just not bother raiding at all, and will probably play the game a lot less over all as a whole as though I PVP time to time the toxic environment of PVP makes it not something I would want to spend the majority of my play time doing, and farming just gets boring after a certain number of hours leaving only end game PVE content worth doing beyond PVP but put out of reach due to cost.

As for the PVP'ers who have commented on this thread I say this. Then remove the Cyro helm seller. Let you pure PvP people have to actually run the content to get the helms and grind out the inpen trait. Let's see just how much rage that idea brings out as it is what you are all supporting PVE having to deal with. You want the items grin the content after all right, you should not be able to just buy them either.

Nifty2g

AJTC5000 wrote: »

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

Same reason you do what you do in the game I suppose, cause you enjoy it, but, I raid to play with friends and get some nice competition. Lately I have been leading raids, leading raids is fun

JavaWho

Nifty2g wrote: »

Eweroun wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

hmmm.... raiding at least 4 nights a week ... never paid for potions... oh an yes, i use them..
if you take some time to pick some flowers... it's not that hard...
(yesterday I got my precious needed flowers with a survey report... easy one this week)

wandering the lands of Tamriel is quite relaxing!! takes away the stress of real life... give it a try and spend your precious earned gold on other things

Not everyone likes to farm, some people only have time to log on and raid

@Nifty2g In my case this is absolutely correct.

I do not have the time to farm. I raid 6 nights a week, 4 of those nights are spent training or assisting others not only from Epic Synergy but from 2 other guilds and friends as well. I do not mind picking flowers if I can find the time, but I see my flower purchases just as good for the economy of the game, giving back to those who enjoy it.

timidobserver

Eweroun wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

hmmm.... raiding at least 4 nights a week ... never paid for potions... oh an yes, i use them..
if you take some time to pick some flowers... it's not that hard...
(yesterday I got my precious needed flowers with a survey report... easy one this week)

wandering the lands of Tamriel is quite relaxing!! takes away the stress of real life... give it a try and spend your precious earned gold on other things

You paid with your time. I'd rather make enough gold from trials/dungeone to supply my pots. That way I spend more time doing what I actually want to do.

JavaWho

AJTC5000 wrote: »

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

I enjoy the challenge of completing the content, playing with friends and helping others to clear it. In game, putting 12 people to play and work together as a team and accomplish the content is very fun and rewarding.

This is very costly as @Joysheeped quoted me earlier "I Live on Cool Down" meaning potion cool down and I hope I can continue to do this. We still have many players who want to clear some of this content.

Vyle_Byte

Lmfao did someone seriously come into thread and say "go pick flowers" to Nifty? Im dyin here haha WHAT?! Dude has been here playin end game content longer than most, shush you!

I don't pve end game but that doesn't mean I cant see how these changes are going to affect the entire community. You cant take a source of income for these guys away from them. If these changes go in as they are right now, I fear for our end game pve'ers. Its like an ecosystem, you cannot have big changes and expect it NOT to affect everything down the line.