The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

Nifty2g

I am completely unsure if this is correct right now but judging from the patch notes, gold jewelry from trials such as Silk of the sun, necropotence, warlock and so forth are being removed from gold jewelry and/or only dropping in Bind on Pick up at the end of the hardmode Trial, this is excluding: Vicious Ophidian, Alkosh, Moondancer, Lunar Bastion, Infallible Aether, Twilight Remedy, Eternal Yokeda and so forth.

So during this post, I am going to ask a lot of people to sympathize with the end game community, even ZOS, I know the community is rather small in terms of global population of ESO, but it is also pretty impactful on the community as a whole so it's nice to see where we are coming from when I write about this, and from talking, it seems a lot of us are in the same boat with one another - if you are not then sorry

I have been running content in this game competitively for 2 years now, whether it is Maelstrom, Dragonstar, Trials or even getting some Dungeon achievements doing this content is where myself and others make gold from, and I sell my earnings to other players out there who aren't exactly for this type of content, whether it is someone farming potions and doing dailies with their friends wanting to buy some gear to be up to level, or a PvP players wanting to minmax their build with some of the trial gear because they are unable to get into groups and find it unbearable to do PvE content.

So here is where the issue comes in, as you all probably know, Trials are so heavy costing as it is very demanding on potions for every single role, Tank, Stamina DD or Magicka DD, here is an example of how much these potions are, and just for a basic comparison on how much potions are used, on average for the average end game trial group a clear of Maw of Lorkhaj takes 1 hour, which means most likely 50 minutes of actively using potions in Maw of Lorkhaj, with 1 run, and during a raid night guilds probably run it around 5 times, more or less. I am not even accounting for how many characters people have and how demanding it is to have Legendary gear and the whole cost to upgrading gear too.




So what I am getting at, removing our incentive and way to make gold and supply gear to the community, what do we gain? We are at a loss, we do not run any other content just as many other people probably do not like being forced into running anything else than what they play this game for, Zenimax are removing a large factor in the ways we actually obtain an income in game.

And last, I have two options which I would like to give Zenimax, which I believe are quite nice

1) I like the idea of having Legendary gated behind the difficult content to give some incentives to content, however, I do not like it if it puts a huge problem on ways raiders make gold, and the first option I have, is to leave it how it currently is in live. Let blue and purple gear drop from the open world and world bosses, but let 1 Legendary BoE drop from Hardmode along with 1 BoP (How it currently is) A BoE should not drop in Veteran, only Hardmode. Push players to do the content, so it doesnt overwhelm the community with gold gear like it currently is, which is where you guys most likely see the issue

2) If Zenimax are standing by this change, then something needs to be changed about the 10,000 Gold Reward (every 5 days, really?) 10,000 Gold on a cooldown, with the prices how they currently are, this sum is so small, and this is where I believe Zenimax need to sympathize, because I know for a fact you guys and I am speaking to the combat developers, know how punishing trials are you guys know how much gold is poured into them and the strain that goes into it. I think the 10,000 gold with a 5 day cooldown which will barely cover 100 potions will need to be adjusted if this system is going live.

3) We could also keep the BoP system, and slightly increase the reward of the weekly trial, but not by much and we could also have our BoP legendary loot sell to vendors a lot more than they do

Remember, I like this system I think it is good, and I personally would like option 2 to be looked in to.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Humatiel

bookmarked.

Asmael

Zenimax luvz flower picking, and think you should as well.

I'm personally running a budget build for all but the bosses in vet trials, I seriously don't want to spend 2h/day making potions.

BNOC

Nifty has put things into perspective from a PC point of view and I don't think there's anyone who thinks that's fair - Or anyone who still thinks running trials is a good use of their time.

To put it into a magicka DD's perspective from an Xbox point of view:

Water Hyacinth - 10k per 25 ~ Sometimes more
Corn Flower - 10k per 20 ~ Usually more
Lady Smock - 13k per 25 ~ Almost always this price

That works out at roughly 35k gold per 100 potions, a little less than double PC prices - Now take in to account that we're doing substantially less DPS than PC players and have had runs stretching 2-3 hours - this is a massive sink hole, I mean, it is at the minute but only marginally, something I can live with to do what I want to do.

Coldharbour which is obviously plant haven is already overpopulated on Xbox, and we have probably the lowest player base of all platforms so I can imagine how you guys feel, I'm just making assumptions but I imagine that will be getting worse in One Tamriel? If so, farming materials on your own is not viable - That's without taking in to account people who work until 5/6PM and come home for a raid at 6:30/7 - There's literally no time to farm except weekends when every player and his dog is online.

I like the idea of the gold reward offering more gold to you, if it's high enough you might actually see PVPers and a whole host of new players running the content weekly, just to get the reward and support their costs elsewhere.

Either that or all of the armour and weapons you get as drops throughout a dungeon need to sell to the vendor for significantly more, 1,000 a piece or something, I don't know - All I know is this isn't right as is.

As a side note: The skin from vMoL, to a lot of people isn't worth the 1M+ gold they're going to spend (without return) throughout their progression and the other trials actually offer no incentives.

Qbiken

@Nifty2g Love reading your posts, since you always have a deeper explanation behind you thoughts (The opposite of a rant). I agree with you, but I would like ZOS to keep it as it is at the moment. I love doing endgame-content (not very experienced with vet-trials but getting the hang of it) and as you say it´s very potionconsuming (and expensive). Having the option of 1 BOE and 1 BOP (not sure which one you get from hardmode but I think you get my point) is good atm.

I feel like ZOS screwed up to many things with this patch, andI hope those people who are on the PTS find/realise the flaws of this patch, and resolve them ofc.

Function

I completely agree with this, BoE gear from PvE content is my sole source of income.. without it I would just bleed my gold dry from buying pots therefore killing my motivation to run trials.

Xjcon

I agree with this. What did it hurt having stuff we could sell from trials? Did it hurt the economy? There is no way you can tell me people will quit the game if they can get their gear to fast.

Auricle

From the perspective of someone who's gearing up to run trials, this whole change makes me wonder why I'm bothering. Who will take the time to teach new people mechanics, when there is little to no return on investment? When you take away the incentive of making good money off of trial drops, why should endgame players keep running them?

Not to be a downer, but this change is really baffling to me. I'd love to hear an explanation of ZoS' thinking. I mean, it's not going to RUIN THE WORLD or anything, but really, I don't understand it. *shrug*

cschwingeb14_ESO

I always thought that the potion cost was the price of getting a leaderboard time, not a necessity for completion. I know that the OP and his entire group could sacrifice % of DPS and still complete the vet trial while using trash magicka pots (and a slightly different build)

Leaderboard time should be the reward, not getting rich, for being good and having fast vet trial times. It is already that way for vMA

Also, considering the motif drops, being able to complete vet will get you one more motif per week per character per trial. And with the scaling change, motifs are going to be more valuable since you can't cheese the non-vet

Dagoth_Rac

I think Zenimax also needs to think about endgame Trials guilds that are better than 90% of the guilds out there but not at that Top 1% everything-hard-mode-on-farm level. My guild might only get 1 or 2 raid nights per week. We have cleared Vet Sanctum hard mode but are still working on Vet Hel Ra hard mode. We have not even cleared Vet Maw of Lorkhaj at all, let alone on hard mode. That 10,000g trophy is not enough to cover costs for top guilds that have this on farm. What about dedicated guilds that are not in the Top 1%? That are still learning this difficult content and it could be months before we get a clear? We will not get a 10,000g trophy, we will not get gold jewelry. We will get nothing. At least now we get some Viper, Dreugh King, Ebon, Sun, Dragon, Red Mountain, Worm, etc., armor that we can sell in guild stores to help defray costs of repairs and potions.

In other words, Zenimax need to give some thought to people still in the middle of this content. And future players who want to tackle this content. The guild that spends 4 hours in a Trial wiping spends just as much on potions and more on repairs than a guild that farms the Trial 4 times in those 4 hours. If the guild with the Trial on farm feels discouraged from trying, how will the guild that is still learning feel? What about new players and guilds that come along in the future? Having guilds attempting this content and organizing and socializing and basing events around progression attempts is good for the game!

I know games need gold sinks to prevent inflation. But I do not think you want the marquee PvE content in the game to be the gold sink. That will discourage current and future players from even trying the content. You should be encouraging players to go into Veteran Trials.

Xrucible

This can be balanced in a very easy way. Making the Celestial and Dro M'athra Motif pages drop only in Vet modes, it essentially gives Raiders an easy way to make gold off raiding. These motif pages will be the Akaviri motif equivalent of PvE.

cf398ub17_ESO

i couldn't agree more

JavaWho

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more as we also assist our team members as well. This does not cover the cost of soul gems, repair kits and food. Running a progression team into Vet Mol of Lorkhaj is very expensive as you tend to go through more of these items than when you run with your core team.

A raider can easily in the economy today spend 1 million in gold per month running content. If we bind all sets that we can no longer sell, we as raiders will not be able to afford to run, nor assist and encourage the community to even accomplish end game trials. We work very hard at being able to achieve this content and would love to keep doing it, but I fear we will not be able to afford to if ZOS binds the all gear.

@Nifty2g Excellent post and my very concerns are with you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert Please hear our plea so that we can keep the raiding community competitive and open.

Myerscod

I couldn't agree more. I wish they'd give some explanations to the decisions they make instead of just saying; Its happening, deal with it.

Wrobel gave a great explanation on the changes to Heavy Armour and Block Cost Reduction which gave us some understanding to WHY the changes happened... It would be nice to have something similar here.

From my perspective as a trainee trial runner in a Guild that's not quite up to running veteran yet, mine, and many others, sole income comes from selling loot we get in trials & dungeons (running the daily pledges too). Changing ALL trials and dungeons to BoP will seriously hurt the economy.

ZOS tells us to play the game how we want to, yet are shoehorning us into making gold via what? Farming flowers that no-one will be able to buy because no-one has any money?

yodased

I fear this is the first step towards introducing unbinding tokens in the cash shop unfortunately.

Erock25

I'm not a raider so let's just get that out of the way first. I haven't raided since the max level was v10 or 12. In my opinion, the reward for raiding is the best gear. That's how it's been in every mmo I've ever played. Also as someone else said, use crap pots or builds that don't require pots if you don't want to spend that much money.

rhapsodious

yodased wrote: »

I fear this is the first step towards introducing unbinding tokens in the cash shop unfortunately.

Please don't give them ideas ):

potirondb16_ESO

Adding some suggestion

1. Adds exclusive reward such as ''Power Stone'' Type reward at the end of Veteran Mode and to Normal mode add Weaker one on a lower drop rate.

What's a ''Power Stone'' work on the same principle as Glyph but can Stack with those. Those PowerStone can either gives some minor bonus to Hp/Resist/Damage/ and even give specific buff. The one dropping from Normal mode trial are significantly weaker then the one from veteran trial whom are still weaker then Glyph.

Those PowerStone are unique to Trial reward and maybe to Nightmare mode dungeon if you ever add those. There presence into the world come from Meridia's Crystal explosion and are unique to the Darkest place of Tamriel.

There's three type of PowerStone :

- Blue: Which are giving extra damage bonus
- Red: Which are giving protection bonus
- Green: Which are giving extra ressource management bonus

You can use those stone on any given peace of Equipment.
Some of those Crystal fragment are unique and seems to be link together such Crystal seems to have been embue into the body of some of the Old god. While unlocking the hard mode you have a chance to see those.

Special Fragment are 3 pièces gems set which unlock specific bonus and who can only be imbue on specific slot such as head/legs and chest. The Mage seems to have gather all those Crystal for the Head, The Warrior for the Legs, and the Serpent for the Chest.

2. Leaderboard modification

Tie the leaderboard to an account base system. That way it also encourage really hard working guild to get there and gather better loot. Add a specific leaderboard to vDSA which allow player to team up and get there every weak. DSA Leaderboard can either give a Normal Powerstone or a vDSA weapon.

Nifty2g

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

I always thought that the potion cost was the price of getting a leaderboard time, not a necessity for completion. I know that the OP and his entire group could sacrifice % of DPS and still complete the vet trial while using trash magicka pots (and a slightly different build)

Leaderboard time should be the reward, not getting rich, for being good and having fast vet trial times. It is already that way for vMA

Also, considering the motif drops, being able to complete vet will get you one more motif per week per character per trial. And with the scaling change, motifs are going to be more valuable since you can't cheese the non-vet

No, this is not the right way to look at this at all.
For starters though, Zenimax completely missed the ball with Motifs, it would be an excellent way but since you can scale trials now and they drop in normals, then yeah there is that, which is a huge issue that wont be looked in to I assume.

But back to your point, every single run I expect these trial groups do, apart from mine they go in with the mindset that this is going to be a score run, a no death run etc, if people do not go in with that mindset then what is the point of running the trial? Sure there are currently farm groups that run them but they reset on certain bosses for certain drops, this thread is not about that.

But really, using trash potions is not viable at all, it is a significant DPS loss and just saying that leaderboard time should be the reward, that is also not what this thread is about, leaderboard scores require even more of a gold sink which is fine, but there needs to be a middle ground where we also have to have some sort of reward at the end that makes up for the loss of profits. This is just speaking for the high end trial groups, now think about the other trial groups who don't go for leaderboard time but want to play competitive and set some goals for themselves, there is utterly no reward for these groups except a gold loss. Don't you start to think that there is really no point in doing trials?

I really do not think that brushing this issue off with the thought of "just use trash potions" or "Leaderboard time should be the reward, not getting rich" because I am not asking to be rich, neither is anyone, we are asking for a source of gold in which we can pay the immense fees that follow running these trials because of how demanding ESO is in terms of competitive gameplay, you can't just get by. But honestly if we are talking about getting rich, I think that raiding should be one of the top ways to obtain gold because of the reward factor

Shadesofkin

If we're not going to be getting loot we can sell, the endgame weekly reward needs to be worth far more than 10k gold. That Serpents Tooth needs to be 50k minimum and the others along with it.

Nifty2g

Shadesofkin wrote: »

If we're not going to be getting loot we can sell, the endgame weekly reward needs to be worth far more than 10k gold. That Serpents Tooth needs to be 50k minimum and the others along with it.

I agree, because this is Hardmode we are talking about, the only *easy* Hardmode is probably Sanctum, every other one is going to take some work and having that amount of gold works up for it, the only viable Hardmode completes are going to be Sanctum and Helra

Cireous

From the perspective of someone who does not run trials and who very much wants the sets that will be newly available in dungeons and the overworld, it is disappointing that no gold jewelry (at all) is going to be offered for these sets. I think, as you seem to be saying, it would be great if BOE gold jewelry for dungeon and overworld sets would be available as (extra) drops from vet trials and maybe even from the vet hard mode final dungeon bosses. This solves both the issue of gold jewelry for these sets not being in the game, when they really should be, and the issue of people running harder content and needing it to be lucrative enough to be worth their time and effort in being there.

acw37162

Bind on pick up is a terrible idea.

It's not floated well every time they keep throwing it out there.

Just give players a currency for completing content with this currency they buy, sell, or trade items.

They we are still playing the game and we can find, buy, or trade for whichever pieces we are missing to try out or experiment with new sets.

Also, trying players ability to experiment with new sets to the RNG system as currently constituted is a terrible idea from a group of people who don't seem to institute a lot of terrible ideas (with the exception of quality control on costumes in the crown store, that department needs some supervision)

newtinmpls

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Dubhliam

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

Nifty2g

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

They are changing mob mitigation and adding BoP gear into them, both of what you just asked for in your post, dungeons now have 4 difficulties so it has a learning curve, so in future expect harder veteran modes and difficult hard modes.

As for your post as a whole, I don't see what would change if they made 10,000 gold reward more or let the gold BoP rings/neck from hardmode trials boe?

JavaWho

newtinmpls wrote: »

JavaWho wrote: »

Personally raiding several nights a week potions will cost me well over 200,000 gold per week, usually more

I have never had this much money in the game. Ever.

I've been playing two accounts since about a month after PC launch.

Well, I can barely afford it now, if we no longer can sell dropped gear I won't have it at all and I am a raider that will go in and help others learn and clear this content.

Dubhliam

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

They are changing mob mitigation and adding BoP gear into them, both of what you just asked for in your post, dungeons now have 4 difficulties so it has a learning curve, so in future expect harder veteran modes and difficult hard modes.

As for your post as a whole, I don't see what would change if they made 10,000 gold reward more or let the gold BoP rings/neck from hardmode trials boe?

Well, I guess I just think differently than you do.
When I do content, I usually do it for the challenge, the fun and the gear grind.

Making gold has never been really on my priority list.

Nifty2g

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

They are changing mob mitigation and adding BoP gear into them, both of what you just asked for in your post, dungeons now have 4 difficulties so it has a learning curve, so in future expect harder veteran modes and difficult hard modes.

As for your post as a whole, I don't see what would change if they made 10,000 gold reward more or let the gold BoP rings/neck from hardmode trials boe?

Well, I guess I just think differently than you do.
When I do content, I usually do it for the challenge, the fun and the gear grind.

Making gold has never been really on my priority list.

Gold goes on your priority list when it is there to support your potions and gear to keep raiding, I'm at 100,000 gold right now, I don't have millions or anything no one really does. I believe you are misreading this whole topic

Xrucible

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Nifty2g I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for you.

4 man dungeons are in a really bad state now, and they deserve the overhaul they are getting by adding BoP gear into them e.a. incentive.
They could get some more love in terms of changing them from less boring and tedious to more challenging and fun, but that is a whole new story.

They are changing mob mitigation and adding BoP gear into them, both of what you just asked for in your post, dungeons now have 4 difficulties so it has a learning curve, so in future expect harder veteran modes and difficult hard modes.

As for your post as a whole, I don't see what would change if they made 10,000 gold reward more or let the gold BoP rings/neck from hardmode trials boe?

Well, I guess I just think differently than you do.
When I do content, I usually do it for the challenge, the fun and the gear grind.

Making gold has never been really on my priority list.

Gold goes on your priority list when it is there to support your potions and gear to keep raiding, I'm at 100,000 gold right now, I don't have millions or anything no one really does. I believe you are misreading this whole topic

I'm guessing most folks here think that raiders are making these posts so that they can make tons of gold off raiding. In reality it's just enough to sustain our raids.

leepalmer95

I still think that gold jewellery should be allows to drop on vet though.

Vet trials after the update are a challenge when your first do them a few times and unlike normal trials you cannot afford to do them with a group of people who don't have good gear, they must atleast put some effort into it.

Now hard mode is a complete different story, it's literally the definition of end game pve, most people farm non hard mode vets and normal and such repeatedly in order to get the gold gear so they can have a complete min/max build so they can actually have a chance.

Now the drop rates for items such as Necro/VO jewellery on a normal dungeons is horrendous , when i started doing trials i did atleast 20+ normal traisl before i just started farming vet ones, in those normal trials i only got a purple ring of the sun once.

People should have a chance of at least finishing their end game sets in order to challenge the hardest content and no be able to finish the hardest content in order to finish their sets? Whats the point then?