PTS Patch Notes - Towers have no doors???

Darnathian

Jules wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

Once again we see a lazy fix implemented by zos....

Or another lazy answer to a change that hasn't hit live yet.

As stated above if the door delay doesn't matter then it wont change much. Just have to deal with the siege. Which can be mitigated by using different locations in the tower or purging.

Honestly though this can only be good for the health of pvp. Resources are not objectives. The resource farms take away from the fight for map control.

I get it. I farmed in those too. ALOT. Before I knew better. 1vX crowd needs to stop beating around the bush. Be mad that your tower farming just got a lot harder. Its okay.

Resources are objectives actually, and on some servers they are main objectives. Also, why would we want MORE people to blob toward the inner ring rather than spread out in segmented fights all across the map. Simply illogical.

I agree. They are objectives till they are taken or defended. But they are being abused by the door. Those that stay upstairs will continue to do so. Nothing changed.

Anyone that says it takes skill though to point siege at the door and kill players as they come through though? Come on Jules. That half second delay is all it took to kill most till someone doing the farm screwed up.\

For the record I would have preferred they made the tower destructible by either side. That would be fair. But then you could bring the whole thing down and it would be less defensible.

This is less than that.

Jaronking

I have to ask the players who say small groups won't be affected by this change I have to ask what is my 4-6 man group supposed to do when we take a resource in a resource campaign where those mattee,Were helping the campaign by taking resources after we flip the resource 30 EP comes after us after fighting a few groups of 4-5 a large force comes after us we would usual run into the tower with this change they can just chase and pretty much permare root us with gap closers.We have no way to get away now?What's the point of playing PVP now its either be in a zerg or die by one.That's not a fun game to play.We can't even go to IC because their group of 20+ bethplar and bethdk running around zerging anyone in the sewers.My buddy today already said he done with the game after a year of playing what's the point of playing PVP now of days?Yes 1v1 are fun but after a while they can get stale.what their left to do in PVP? I don't want to be able to take out a large group every time I fight one but I at least want a chance ZOS keep taking that away.

Armitas

Make Alessia Bridge give d ticks. /fixed.

Sanct16

Jaronking wrote: »

I have to ask the players who say small groups won't be affected by this change I have to ask what is my 4-6 man group supposed to do when we take a resource in a resource campaign where those mattee,Were helping the campaign by taking resources after we flip the resource 30 EP comes after us after fighting a few groups of 4-5 a large force comes after us we would usual run into the tower with this change they can just chase and pretty much permare root us with gap closers.We have no way to get away now?What's the point of playing PVP now its either be in a zerg or die by one.That's not a fun game to play.We can't even go to IC because their group of 20+ bethplar and bethdk running around zerging anyone in the sewers.My buddy today already said he done with the game after a year of playing what's the point of playing PVP now of days?Yes 1v1 are fun but after a while they can get stale.what their left to do in PVP? I don't want to be able to take out a large group every time I fight one but I at least want a chance ZOS keep taking that away.

Well one of the biggest challenges about small scaling is being able to pick your fights. If you get gap close spammed you should've started moving sooner. If they are triggered, start kiting them away from the resource to some choke.

Imagine a big wave on a beach, at the beginning its a huge wave but once it floats over the beach it starts fading and eventually just withdraws. Imagine you stand on the edge of the water and see the wave coming towards you. If you wait until the wave hits you, you won't be able to get out in time. So instead better start to go when you see the wave from distance. Make sure that it is actually coming your way tho before you run away.

Fighting zergs is like running from a wave. You want to fight them on the turning point when enough ppl already turn around because they got bored and just some chase you. You kill the overextenders and hunt down the others that started to go away but be careful of the next wave. Basically your movement pattern should be like always being 1 step outside of the wave. You need some practice so you neither get rolled over nor kite too far away.

Saying smallscaling isnt possible without tower doors is like saying the only way to not get hit by the wave on the beach is by building a wall of bricks between you and the ocean and hope the wave won't be big enough to get over the wall. Sure, its easy if you have that wall but if you got some skills you don't need it.

Joy_Division

Ernest145 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

I don't remember anyone saying its the death of small scaling lol... its just another change out of many that has hurt it. Have you ever tried taking an objective as a small group? You will be met with overwhelming numbers and pugs sieging you even though they outnumber you. Like really even if you are in a 2-4 person group, you take a resource and go by the keep and there is already 5 siege up hitting you. I'm not saying small numbers should be able to take main objectives, what they excel at is distracting larger numbers and pulling them off of other objectives. With this change it reduces their effectiveness.

It was an exploit that favored zerging. Small groups of 4-6 people last what, maybe 1 minute, vs a group of 30 zerging the tower. Small groups are better off going into the tower just to go off 2nd floor and get away.

People keep saying it's a way to escape seige but tower farmers still used seige inside the tower. It's OK for them to use it and the door delay, and the immunity from all range attacks, and the bottleneck but not ok for people to use seige back. Besides I'd rather a guy on seige. They can be ganked.

Now that wont be possible because with the 20+ players spamming gap closers on you and you won't be able to get away. It is incredibly easy to break a tower farm with only a few amount of players, even against a raid farming it. I along with others have mention how to do so already in this thread, it is not our fault that players don't use these strategies and just run into a tower by themselves and cry that they melted. ZOS could've actually thought this out, if they wanted to nerf tower farming maybe don't not allow siege if you do not own the tower or some others ways. But no like always they just try to think of the easiest and quickest way to try to fix something, and they end up messing up like usual.

I'll say this one last time, most people aren't upset because we can't "exploit a door". We are upset because this is a *** band aid fix that had no thought put into it, there are plenty of other ways they could've weakened tower farming which I would be fine with. But no they choose the easy way out and because of that they yet again cripple small scalers.

Would you care to offer some suggestions? Maybe you did and I missed them. Aside from the 20 people who comically stated not to take the flags. Please. Some of us do "play skillfully" and yell in zone chat repeatedly not to take the flags and, of course, the flags are always taken because one PUG will always stand on the flag thinking he is "playing yell" by actually taking the objective (because it's stupid/noob of him not to recognize completing an AvA objective is poor play, that's makes him a baddie, right?).

If there only 2-4 defenders in the tower, I couldn't care less about the door delay because there aren't 2 fire ballista hitting the door while multiple AoE ultimates are active. If it usually was the case that there were only 2-4 people in a tower, this wouldn't be a controversial issue at all.

When there is a raid guild holed up on the bottom floor, it may be relatively easy for your coordinated group of excellent and experienced players to get into the tower and break it up, but it is not easy. If it was, ZoS would not have felt compelled to make this change. When I go into a tower held by a raid, even with immovable, mist form, and bats, there is no guarantee at all I will get to the second floor (a fire ballista hit + negate or root [immovable does nothing here] is a lethal combination). It is in these situation where the door-delay does not enable us to control our character and we yet still take damage - that is super frustrating and a mechanic that should not be defended by anyone claiming to want battles to be decided by skill. Just because when you enter into a tower in a coordinated fashion with a pre-placed negate on the door and can minimize door frustrations does not mean that's a realistic option for the vast majority of people who play this game.

Aside from being in a top coordinated group and yelling in vain for PuGs to get off the flag, what suggestions would you offer ZoS to make it such we don't have the stupidity of the door-delay coupled with the defenders ability to fire siege weapons with impunity?

Jaronking

Sanct16 wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

I have to ask the players who say small groups won't be affected by this change I have to ask what is my 4-6 man group supposed to do when we take a resource in a resource campaign where those mattee,Were helping the campaign by taking resources after we flip the resource 30 EP comes after us after fighting a few groups of 4-5 a large force comes after us we would usual run into the tower with this change they can just chase and pretty much permare root us with gap closers.We have no way to get away now?What's the point of playing PVP now its either be in a zerg or die by one.That's not a fun game to play.We can't even go to IC because their group of 20+ bethplar and bethdk running around zerging anyone in the sewers.My buddy today already said he done with the game after a year of playing what's the point of playing PVP now of days?Yes 1v1 are fun but after a while they can get stale.what their left to do in PVP? I don't want to be able to take out a large group every time I fight one but I at least want a chance ZOS keep taking that away.

Well one of the biggest challenges about small scaling is being able to pick your fights. If you get gap close spammed you should've started moving sooner. If they are triggered, start kiting them away from the resource to some choke.

Imagine a big wave on a beach, at the beginning its a huge wave but once it floats over the beach it starts fading and eventually just withdraws. Imagine you stand on the edge of the water and see the wave coming towards you. If you wait until the wave hits you, you won't be able to get out in time. So instead better start to go when you see the wave from distance. Make sure that it is actually coming your way tho before you run away.

Fighting zergs is like running from a wave. You want to fight them on the turning point when enough ppl already turn around because they got bored and just some chase you. You kill the overextenders and hunt down the others that started to go away but be careful of the next wave. Basically your movement pattern should be like always being 1 step outside of the wave. You need some practice so you neither get rolled over nor kite too far away.

Saying smallscaling isnt possible without tower doors is like saying the only way to not get hit by the wave on the beach is by building a wall of bricks between you and the ocean and hope the wave won't be big enough to get over the wall. Sure, its easy if you have that wall but if you got some skills you don't need it.

Like most people in this thread am not saying it isn't possible with out the doors its just Harder now and the continual nerfes to small scales Hurts my enjoyment in the game and make me stop wanting to play at times.

God_flakes

Tower farming will actually require skill now and all the #gitgudl2p folks are crying.

rfennell_ESO

God_flakes wrote: »

Tower farming will actually require skill now and all the #gitgudl2p folks are crying.

My guess is it was on "the list" of things causing lag and they just decided to outright end it.

Isn't that one of the things the devs said... they go over the top causes of lag and address them.

So far the lag in cyro has been excellent since last big patch... if this will make it even better, I'm fine with it.

Ernest145

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

I don't remember anyone saying its the death of small scaling lol... its just another change out of many that has hurt it. Have you ever tried taking an objective as a small group? You will be met with overwhelming numbers and pugs sieging you even though they outnumber you. Like really even if you are in a 2-4 person group, you take a resource and go by the keep and there is already 5 siege up hitting you. I'm not saying small numbers should be able to take main objectives, what they excel at is distracting larger numbers and pulling them off of other objectives. With this change it reduces their effectiveness.

It was an exploit that favored zerging. Small groups of 4-6 people last what, maybe 1 minute, vs a group of 30 zerging the tower. Small groups are better off going into the tower just to go off 2nd floor and get away.

People keep saying it's a way to escape seige but tower farmers still used seige inside the tower. It's OK for them to use it and the door delay, and the immunity from all range attacks, and the bottleneck but not ok for people to use seige back. Besides I'd rather a guy on seige. They can be ganked.

Now that wont be possible because with the 20+ players spamming gap closers on you and you won't be able to get away. It is incredibly easy to break a tower farm with only a few amount of players, even against a raid farming it. I along with others have mention how to do so already in this thread, it is not our fault that players don't use these strategies and just run into a tower by themselves and cry that they melted. ZOS could've actually thought this out, if they wanted to nerf tower farming maybe don't not allow siege if you do not own the tower or some others ways. But no like always they just try to think of the easiest and quickest way to try to fix something, and they end up messing up like usual.

I'll say this one last time, most people aren't upset because we can't "exploit a door". We are upset because this is a *** band aid fix that had no thought put into it, there are plenty of other ways they could've weakened tower farming which I would be fine with. But no they choose the easy way out and because of that they yet again cripple small scalers.

Would you care to offer some suggestions? Maybe you did and I missed them. Aside from the 20 people who comically stated not to take the flags. Please. Some of us do "play skillfully" and yell in zone chat repeatedly not to take the flags and, of course, the flags are always taken because one PUG will always stand on the flag thinking he is "playing yell" by actually taking the objective (because it's stupid/noob of him not to recognize completing an AvA objective is poor play, that's makes him a baddie, right?).

If there only 2-4 defenders in the tower, I couldn't care less about the door delay because there aren't 2 fire ballista hitting the door while multiple AoE ultimates are active. If it usually was the case that there were only 2-4 people in a tower, this wouldn't be a controversial issue at all.

When there is a raid guild holed up on the bottom floor, it may be relatively easy for your coordinated group of excellent and experienced players to get into the tower and break it up, but it is not easy. If it was, ZoS would not have felt compelled to make this change. When I go into a tower held by a raid, even with immovable, mist form, and bats, there is no guarantee at all I will get to the second floor (a fire ballista hit + negate or root [immovable does nothing here] is a lethal combination). It is in these situation where the door-delay does not enable us to control our character and we yet still take damage - that is super frustrating and a mechanic that should not be defended by anyone claiming to want battles to be decided by skill. Just because when you enter into a tower in a coordinated fashion with a pre-placed negate on the door and can minimize door frustrations does not mean that's a realistic option for the vast majority of people who play this game.

Aside from being in a top coordinated group and yelling in vain for PuGs to get off the flag, what suggestions would you offer ZoS to make it such we don't have the stupidity of the door-delay coupled with the defenders ability to fire siege weapons with impunity?

A first would not to allow siege inside the tower or the first floor if it's not your tower. I would be totally fine with this change because whoever enters already has the door delay they shouldn't be able to be sieged also. I'm at work atm so cant come up with a list till later. I'm all for them attempting to change the way tower doors and tower farming work in general, but this wasn't the right way. This hurts smaller groups and solo players quite a bit when they attempt to take a resource to spread people out.

About the pugs that take the flag even though people are yelling at them, yes they should have to think about what they are doing instead of mindlessly taking a flag. You should be forced to make good decisions and also pay for your bad ones. It should be the job of others to set up siege well before the players who don't know any better take the flag. Literally every time I see a raid farming a resource I see knowledgeable players standing around that don't bother sieging the tower down first. The players are there it's just they choose not to siege or just wait too long and allow the bad players to cap the flag.

I will reiterate, I'm not all mad because tower farming got more difficult. I'm upset because it's a cheap fix that hurts small scale players who aren't even using the tower to farm the first floor and "exploit a door". I'm all for making it much more difficult to tower farm with larger numbers, I just want a better more well thought-out solution.

Joy_Division

Ernest145 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

I don't remember anyone saying its the death of small scaling lol... its just another change out of many that has hurt it. Have you ever tried taking an objective as a small group? You will be met with overwhelming numbers and pugs sieging you even though they outnumber you. Like really even if you are in a 2-4 person group, you take a resource and go by the keep and there is already 5 siege up hitting you. I'm not saying small numbers should be able to take main objectives, what they excel at is distracting larger numbers and pulling them off of other objectives. With this change it reduces their effectiveness.

It was an exploit that favored zerging. Small groups of 4-6 people last what, maybe 1 minute, vs a group of 30 zerging the tower. Small groups are better off going into the tower just to go off 2nd floor and get away.

People keep saying it's a way to escape seige but tower farmers still used seige inside the tower. It's OK for them to use it and the door delay, and the immunity from all range attacks, and the bottleneck but not ok for people to use seige back. Besides I'd rather a guy on seige. They can be ganked.

Now that wont be possible because with the 20+ players spamming gap closers on you and you won't be able to get away. It is incredibly easy to break a tower farm with only a few amount of players, even against a raid farming it. I along with others have mention how to do so already in this thread, it is not our fault that players don't use these strategies and just run into a tower by themselves and cry that they melted. ZOS could've actually thought this out, if they wanted to nerf tower farming maybe don't not allow siege if you do not own the tower or some others ways. But no like always they just try to think of the easiest and quickest way to try to fix something, and they end up messing up like usual.

I'll say this one last time, most people aren't upset because we can't "exploit a door". We are upset because this is a *** band aid fix that had no thought put into it, there are plenty of other ways they could've weakened tower farming which I would be fine with. But no they choose the easy way out and because of that they yet again cripple small scalers.

Would you care to offer some suggestions? Maybe you did and I missed them. Aside from the 20 people who comically stated not to take the flags. Please. Some of us do "play skillfully" and yell in zone chat repeatedly not to take the flags and, of course, the flags are always taken because one PUG will always stand on the flag thinking he is "playing yell" by actually taking the objective (because it's stupid/noob of him not to recognize completing an AvA objective is poor play, that's makes him a baddie, right?).

If there only 2-4 defenders in the tower, I couldn't care less about the door delay because there aren't 2 fire ballista hitting the door while multiple AoE ultimates are active. If it usually was the case that there were only 2-4 people in a tower, this wouldn't be a controversial issue at all.

When there is a raid guild holed up on the bottom floor, it may be relatively easy for your coordinated group of excellent and experienced players to get into the tower and break it up, but it is not easy. If it was, ZoS would not have felt compelled to make this change. When I go into a tower held by a raid, even with immovable, mist form, and bats, there is no guarantee at all I will get to the second floor (a fire ballista hit + negate or root [immovable does nothing here] is a lethal combination). It is in these situation where the door-delay does not enable us to control our character and we yet still take damage - that is super frustrating and a mechanic that should not be defended by anyone claiming to want battles to be decided by skill. Just because when you enter into a tower in a coordinated fashion with a pre-placed negate on the door and can minimize door frustrations does not mean that's a realistic option for the vast majority of people who play this game.

Aside from being in a top coordinated group and yelling in vain for PuGs to get off the flag, what suggestions would you offer ZoS to make it such we don't have the stupidity of the door-delay coupled with the defenders ability to fire siege weapons with impunity?

A first would not to allow siege inside the tower or the first floor if it's not your tower. I would be totally fine with this change because whoever enters already has the door delay they shouldn't be able to be sieged also. I'm at work atm so cant come up with a list till later. I'm all for them attempting to change the way tower doors and tower farming work in general, but this wasn't the right way. This hurts smaller groups and solo players quite a bit when they attempt to take a resource to spread people out.

About the pugs that take the flag even though people are yelling at them, yes they should have to think about what they are doing instead of mindlessly taking a flag. You should be forced to make good decisions and also pay for your bad ones. It should be the job of others to set up siege well before the players who don't know any better take the flag. Literally every time I see a raid farming a resource I see knowledgeable players standing around that don't bother sieging the tower down first. The players are there it's just they choose not to siege or just wait too long and allow the bad players to cap the flag.

I will reiterate, I'm not all mad because tower farming got more difficult. I'm upset because it's a cheap fix that hurts small scale players who aren't even using the tower to farm the first floor and "exploit a door". I'm all for making it much more difficult to tower farm with larger numbers, I just want a better more well thought-out solution.

Fair enough. Making is such that the people inside could not fire siege (maybe making the door like a castle gate so the people inside would destroy it - but it couldnt be destroyed by the outside group) is a compromise I could live with. In a perfect world, ZoS might take into account our ideas, but I have the feeling that our debate here is unfortunately moot as they typically dont change decisions like this.

I don't mind defenders going into the tower and it being a refuge for outnumbered players, in fact I agree that should be part of the game, but that door stun mechanic and the raid setting up multiple siege on the bottom is terrible gameplay.

BFT88

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

Teach me senpai. Because scroll quests give 750 ap (what a joke for the amount of effort), keep and resource quests give 1000 ap per. And usually when you burst a keep a Zerg of bads from the attacking alliances and defending alliance show up, killing FPS and performance. Then you get a, what, 1k-5k o-tick/d-tick if you're lucky?

Riiiiiight.....

Since there won't be many tower farms after update 12, I'll just stick to ganking people like you one after the other for 1.6k-2k ap PER kill. Way faster, less laggy, more ap, have fun staying at volunteer.

Ernest145

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

I don't remember anyone saying its the death of small scaling lol... its just another change out of many that has hurt it. Have you ever tried taking an objective as a small group? You will be met with overwhelming numbers and pugs sieging you even though they outnumber you. Like really even if you are in a 2-4 person group, you take a resource and go by the keep and there is already 5 siege up hitting you. I'm not saying small numbers should be able to take main objectives, what they excel at is distracting larger numbers and pulling them off of other objectives. With this change it reduces their effectiveness.

It was an exploit that favored zerging. Small groups of 4-6 people last what, maybe 1 minute, vs a group of 30 zerging the tower. Small groups are better off going into the tower just to go off 2nd floor and get away.

People keep saying it's a way to escape seige but tower farmers still used seige inside the tower. It's OK for them to use it and the door delay, and the immunity from all range attacks, and the bottleneck but not ok for people to use seige back. Besides I'd rather a guy on seige. They can be ganked.

Now that wont be possible because with the 20+ players spamming gap closers on you and you won't be able to get away. It is incredibly easy to break a tower farm with only a few amount of players, even against a raid farming it. I along with others have mention how to do so already in this thread, it is not our fault that players don't use these strategies and just run into a tower by themselves and cry that they melted. ZOS could've actually thought this out, if they wanted to nerf tower farming maybe don't not allow siege if you do not own the tower or some others ways. But no like always they just try to think of the easiest and quickest way to try to fix something, and they end up messing up like usual.

I'll say this one last time, most people aren't upset because we can't "exploit a door". We are upset because this is a *** band aid fix that had no thought put into it, there are plenty of other ways they could've weakened tower farming which I would be fine with. But no they choose the easy way out and because of that they yet again cripple small scalers.

Would you care to offer some suggestions? Maybe you did and I missed them. Aside from the 20 people who comically stated not to take the flags. Please. Some of us do "play skillfully" and yell in zone chat repeatedly not to take the flags and, of course, the flags are always taken because one PUG will always stand on the flag thinking he is "playing yell" by actually taking the objective (because it's stupid/noob of him not to recognize completing an AvA objective is poor play, that's makes him a baddie, right?).

If there only 2-4 defenders in the tower, I couldn't care less about the door delay because there aren't 2 fire ballista hitting the door while multiple AoE ultimates are active. If it usually was the case that there were only 2-4 people in a tower, this wouldn't be a controversial issue at all.

When there is a raid guild holed up on the bottom floor, it may be relatively easy for your coordinated group of excellent and experienced players to get into the tower and break it up, but it is not easy. If it was, ZoS would not have felt compelled to make this change. When I go into a tower held by a raid, even with immovable, mist form, and bats, there is no guarantee at all I will get to the second floor (a fire ballista hit + negate or root [immovable does nothing here] is a lethal combination). It is in these situation where the door-delay does not enable us to control our character and we yet still take damage - that is super frustrating and a mechanic that should not be defended by anyone claiming to want battles to be decided by skill. Just because when you enter into a tower in a coordinated fashion with a pre-placed negate on the door and can minimize door frustrations does not mean that's a realistic option for the vast majority of people who play this game.

Aside from being in a top coordinated group and yelling in vain for PuGs to get off the flag, what suggestions would you offer ZoS to make it such we don't have the stupidity of the door-delay coupled with the defenders ability to fire siege weapons with impunity?

A first would not to allow siege inside the tower or the first floor if it's not your tower. I would be totally fine with this change because whoever enters already has the door delay they shouldn't be able to be sieged also. I'm at work atm so cant come up with a list till later. I'm all for them attempting to change the way tower doors and tower farming work in general, but this wasn't the right way. This hurts smaller groups and solo players quite a bit when they attempt to take a resource to spread people out.

About the pugs that take the flag even though people are yelling at them, yes they should have to think about what they are doing instead of mindlessly taking a flag. You should be forced to make good decisions and also pay for your bad ones. It should be the job of others to set up siege well before the players who don't know any better take the flag. Literally every time I see a raid farming a resource I see knowledgeable players standing around that don't bother sieging the tower down first. The players are there it's just they choose not to siege or just wait too long and allow the bad players to cap the flag.

I will reiterate, I'm not all mad because tower farming got more difficult. I'm upset because it's a cheap fix that hurts small scale players who aren't even using the tower to farm the first floor and "exploit a door". I'm all for making it much more difficult to tower farm with larger numbers, I just want a better more well thought-out solution.

Fair enough. Making is such that the people inside could not fire siege (maybe making the door like a castle gate so the people inside would destroy it - but it couldnt be destroyed by the outside group) is a compromise I could live with. In a perfect world, ZoS might take into account our ideas, but I have the feeling that our debate here is unfortunately moot as they typically dont change decisions like this.

I don't mind defenders going into the tower and it being a refuge for outnumbered players, in fact I agree that should be part of the game, but that door stun mechanic and the raid setting up multiple siege on the bottom is terrible gameplay.

Maybe even let players who own the tower be able to siege it down but their siege does reduced damage since they failed to siege it down before and it gives the players inside time to regroup.

Yeah I agree overall balance has gotten progressively worse since I started playing the games and also less enjoyable, so I've already lost hope in ZOS. Can only hope for better I guess

thankyourat

I actually think this change hurts zergs more than small scale. Too many times a full 24 man raid will camp in the tower after a failed keep attack and take advantage of the door glitch. Yea a door on the tower will benefit small group players, but whatever benefits a small group will benefit the larger group twice as much. There are plenty of places for small scale PvP it doesn't have to be at a resource tower.

altemriel

just a crazy question


how could one get into the tower, when there is no door to enter ??

some kind of magic probably

Sanct16

I assume there will just be a hole in the tower instead of the door

altemriel

Sanct16 wrote: »

I assume there will just be a hole in the tower instead of the door

oh, that is a good defense to not have doors on the towers

WTH from the practical point of view ??!!

God_flakes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Ernest145 wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

Gotta love how people complain that meerly removing doors on resource towers is "the death of small group pvp," when they literally would only farm AP off by proxy-detting and burning down poor noobs and pugs who don't know that they shouldn't feed the farm. Wanna really do pvp? Take keeps, resources to take keeps, scrolls, etc. There's a million and one things you can do to get AP other than farm.

I don't remember anyone saying its the death of small scaling lol... its just another change out of many that has hurt it. Have you ever tried taking an objective as a small group? You will be met with overwhelming numbers and pugs sieging you even though they outnumber you. Like really even if you are in a 2-4 person group, you take a resource and go by the keep and there is already 5 siege up hitting you. I'm not saying small numbers should be able to take main objectives, what they excel at is distracting larger numbers and pulling them off of other objectives. With this change it reduces their effectiveness.

It was an exploit that favored zerging. Small groups of 4-6 people last what, maybe 1 minute, vs a group of 30 zerging the tower. Small groups are better off going into the tower just to go off 2nd floor and get away.

People keep saying it's a way to escape seige but tower farmers still used seige inside the tower. It's OK for them to use it and the door delay, and the immunity from all range attacks, and the bottleneck but not ok for people to use seige back. Besides I'd rather a guy on seige. They can be ganked.

Now that wont be possible because with the 20+ players spamming gap closers on you and you won't be able to get away. It is incredibly easy to break a tower farm with only a few amount of players, even against a raid farming it. I along with others have mention how to do so already in this thread, it is not our fault that players don't use these strategies and just run into a tower by themselves and cry that they melted. ZOS could've actually thought this out, if they wanted to nerf tower farming maybe don't not allow siege if you do not own the tower or some others ways. But no like always they just try to think of the easiest and quickest way to try to fix something, and they end up messing up like usual.

I'll say this one last time, most people aren't upset because we can't "exploit a door". We are upset because this is a *** band aid fix that had no thought put into it, there are plenty of other ways they could've weakened tower farming which I would be fine with. But no they choose the easy way out and because of that they yet again cripple small scalers.

Would you care to offer some suggestions? Maybe you did and I missed them. Aside from the 20 people who comically stated not to take the flags. Please. Some of us do "play skillfully" and yell in zone chat repeatedly not to take the flags and, of course, the flags are always taken because one PUG will always stand on the flag thinking he is "playing yell" by actually taking the objective (because it's stupid/noob of him not to recognize completing an AvA objective is poor play, that's makes him a baddie, right?).

If there only 2-4 defenders in the tower, I couldn't care less about the door delay because there aren't 2 fire ballista hitting the door while multiple AoE ultimates are active. If it usually was the case that there were only 2-4 people in a tower, this wouldn't be a controversial issue at all.

When there is a raid guild holed up on the bottom floor, it may be relatively easy for your coordinated group of excellent and experienced players to get into the tower and break it up, but it is not easy. If it was, ZoS would not have felt compelled to make this change. When I go into a tower held by a raid, even with immovable, mist form, and bats, there is no guarantee at all I will get to the second floor (a fire ballista hit + negate or root [immovable does nothing here] is a lethal combination). It is in these situation where the door-delay does not enable us to control our character and we yet still take damage - that is super frustrating and a mechanic that should not be defended by anyone claiming to want battles to be decided by skill. Just because when you enter into a tower in a coordinated fashion with a pre-placed negate on the door and can minimize door frustrations does not mean that's a realistic option for the vast majority of people who play this game.

Aside from being in a top coordinated group and yelling in vain for PuGs to get off the flag, what suggestions would you offer ZoS to make it such we don't have the stupidity of the door-delay coupled with the defenders ability to fire siege weapons with impunity?

A first would not to allow siege inside the tower or the first floor if it's not your tower. I would be totally fine with this change because whoever enters already has the door delay they shouldn't be able to be sieged also. I'm at work atm so cant come up with a list till later. I'm all for them attempting to change the way tower doors and tower farming work in general, but this wasn't the right way. This hurts smaller groups and solo players quite a bit when they attempt to take a resource to spread people out.

About the pugs that take the flag even though people are yelling at them, yes they should have to think about what they are doing instead of mindlessly taking a flag. You should be forced to make good decisions and also pay for your bad ones. It should be the job of others to set up siege well before the players who don't know any better take the flag. Literally every time I see a raid farming a resource I see knowledgeable players standing around that don't bother sieging the tower down first. The players are there it's just they choose not to siege or just wait too long and allow the bad players to cap the flag.

I will reiterate, I'm not all mad because tower farming got more difficult. I'm upset because it's a cheap fix that hurts small scale players who aren't even using the tower to farm the first floor and "exploit a door". I'm all for making it much more difficult to tower farm with larger numbers, I just want a better more well thought-out solution.

Fair enough. Making is such that the people inside could not fire siege (maybe making the door like a castle gate so the people inside would destroy it - but it couldnt be destroyed by the outside group) is a compromise I could live with. In a perfect world, ZoS might take into account our ideas, but I have the feeling that our debate here is unfortunately moot as they typically dont change decisions like this.

I don't mind defenders going into the tower and it being a refuge for outnumbered players, in fact I agree that should be part of the game, but that door stun mechanic and the raid setting up multiple siege on the bottom is terrible gameplay.

Well the notes do say the workers are "on strike" so perhaps this means the removal of doors is only temporary until they can work out a solution that will stop tower farming.

Eweroun

Micah123 wrote: »

"The carpenters of Cyrodiil are on strike, and Towers no longer have doors."

syndicates did finally enter Tamriel? Ooohhh !!!

SCRIBES, FETCH YOUR PENS AND PAPERS, NEW LORE IS TO BE WRITTEN!!

Eweroun

altemriel wrote: »

just a crazy question


how could one get into the tower, when there is no door to enter ??

some kind of magic probably

grappling hooks, ladders, teleportation magic....
lots of new things to come.... damn you patch notes not telling everything !!

Rage_Killin

Instead of forcing ZOS to remove the doors from towers to "prevent" tower farming maybe you should take medication for your ADHD and stop going into a farm in progress. There was a very easy fix to this problem. Stop. Going. In. The. Doors.

LeifErickson

I very much agree with this change. The doors were buggy and didn't work half the time. And when they did work, usually a NB would piggyback with you through the door. I don't see why there is all of this rage at this new change. I feel like it will make combat around resources much more fun when you can go into the tower whenever you want. I don't really get how this stop tower farming either.

Daggerfall_Bones

It's a door. The problem is the tower is industructable when player OMGxxPWNxxFACE takes the flag for the 1000th time. They cannot be reasoned with and cannot be stopped, they will take the flag no matter what.

If the tower remained destructible or at least the door problem solved. I've been a part of plenty of tower farms, won't miss them.

They should make the towers, mile gates and bridge towers all neutral and destructable. Then have NPC's repair them over time.

dashima

In campaigns where there are lots of opponent zergs, the resource is kind of like a fallback plan. Not having the door is going to make it even more difficult to escape if a 20 man decides to descend on you there.

It'll still be possible to resource/tower farm w a smallscale group and make things like 5v30ing possible (many thanks pact militia and bod ), but I suspect the number of top floor holds will increase (those are the fun ones anyway) and more importantly, I feel like zos is pushing players to move in packs and gradually making it more difficult and unenjoyable to play alone, or with lesser numbers. The zergs will always exist but I wish zos would make a positive change that empowers the outnumbered for once. Liiiiiiike nerfing snares and removing gap closer snare pls.

To all you qqers about tower farming, every farm is breakable. Either you siege the tower down, just wait till the group inside gets bored and comes out, or L2 break a tower farm. Personally, I've always enjoyed breaking tower farms esp against large groups. I guess the devs didn't.

EDIT: zos, you can remove the doors but at least return milegate scaffolding pls.

God_flakes

dashima wrote: »

For most solo players there are very few options - either camp a resource and wait for them to come to you, stand around a transit route where you know players are gonna pass, or bait the side/back of a siege line. In campaigns where there are lots of opponent zergs, the resource is kind of like a fallback plan. Not having the door is going to make it even more difficult to escape if a 20 man decides to descend on you there.

It'll still be possible to resource/tower farm w a smallscale group and make things like 5v30ing possible (many thanks pact militia and bod ), but I suspect the number of top floor holds will increase (and imo, those are the fun ones anyway) and more importantly, I feel like zos is pushing players to move in packs and gradually making it more difficult and unenjoyable to play alone, or with lesser numbers. The zergs will always exist but I wish zos would make a positive change that empowers the outnumbered for once. Liiiiiiike nerfing snares and removing gap closer snare pls.

To all you qqers about tower farming, every farm is breakable. Either you siege the tower down, just wait till the group inside gets bored and comes out, or L2 break a tower farm. Personally, I've always enjoyed breaking tower farms esp against large groups. I guess the devs didn't.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about nerfing snares. They're ridiculous right now.

Thelon

Darnathian wrote: »

1vX crowd needs to stop beating around the bush. Be mad that your tower farming just got a lot harder.

1vX players don't use the tower to farm, they use it to momentarily escape the zerg blob.

LegendaryChef

Darnathian wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

Once again we see a lazy fix implemented by zos....

Or another lazy answer to a change that hasn't hit live yet.

As stated above if the door delay doesn't matter then it wont change much. Just have to deal with the siege. Which can be mitigated by using different locations in the tower or purging.

Honestly though this can only be good for the health of pvp. Resources are not objectives. The resource farms take away from the fight for map control.

I get it. I farmed in those too. ALOT. Before I knew better. 1vX crowd needs to stop beating around the bush. Be mad that your tower farming just got a lot harder. Its okay.

I'm not mad at all man, I think in my own opinion that the doors were a good thing for resources to have for reason which mostly have already been mentioned by others but I just think that it's poor design from zos once again.

I dislike however the way you seem to talk down to everyone on the forums like you are the "greater good" or whatever you want to call yourself but everyone has an opinion and mine is that if this is implemented then I believe it's simply: a) unnecessary and b) lazy design.

If you are stupid enough to walk through a door with a group setup with siege inside then you deserve all you get.

That ok with you, your majesty?

moiraleafcull

I find the argument that removing tower doors another "death of small groups" argument somewhat specious.
I haven't seen a "small group", whatever the definition of that is these days but for the purpose of this post lets say less than 8, doing a tower farm in TF in months. Some might argue that my assertion is patently false, but in truth the only "small group" "tower farms" are nothing more than take the resource, pitch your tent on top of tower, and "small group gank" the ones/twos that attempt to take back the resource. Once the "zerg" arrives, its flee or BP to set up the next one.

Personally, I think this is a good change and am looking forward to a new dynamic over resource battles.

dashima

Summary of this thread's comments:

Smallscale players: Yes, this change empowers zergs.
Zerg players: I don't understand how removing los hurts smallscale players. That time I got farmed by 5 guys in my 24 man... that was cause of the door exploit. Thank god we can't get farmed anymore!

Well, at least now when zergs get farmed in towers they don't have an excuse anymore as to why they got wiped.

icontrive

I enjoy looking through the windows of the tower during tower farms. Nothing like seeing my teammates unable to figure out how to walk away.

God_flakes

dashima wrote: »

Summary of this thread's comments:

Smallscale players: Yes, this change empowers zergs.
Zerg players: I don't understand how removing los hurts smallscale players. That time I got farmed by 5 guys in my 24 man... that was cause of the door exploit. Thank god we can't get farmed anymore!

Well, at least now when zergs get farmed in towers they don't have an excuse anymore as to why they got wiped.

And now the those uber cool tower farming small man groups have to rely on whatever skill they think they possess verses a door delay.