Problems with the Shadows Of The Hist dungeons

SienneYviete

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

You're the only one creating this divide, options have been discussed however anyone that has a differing opinion to yours has been automatically dismissed with a snarky response.

code65536

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

DHale

I ran ruins with guildies ppl I know. We were all in TS. We still wiped on the very last boss in hard mode and without hard mode. We can't get the totems down fast enough before you are out of everything. I don't think a lot of pug groups will be able to do it. A few will pull it off if you are 30 k dps plus and that's great... For them for me I want the skill point that's it. Being good at running dungeons is like being good at burping. To spend this much time doing the dungeon to get the "Accoplishment" of running the dungeon to get a helmet with training or prosperous.... Yeah no Bueno. If you do the traditional tank healer 2 dps your dps better bringing it. For me if I need to run non inpen all divine gold gear not going to happen.

Doctordarkspawn

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Finally. As one of the people who -has- been asking for a third tier of difficulty? This is not what I ment. What I ment, is a difficulty tier that makes the dungeons as ballbustingly hard as they were back in Beta, and this is just throwing a bunch of crap and forcing you to DPS -through- the mechanics before they can pile up. And that's bad design I hope this game is trying to outgrow.

DPS through mechanics? Are we talking about the same dungeons? ZOS has learned from previous dungeons and made the new ones very burn-proof. For example, Xal-Nur's spice happens at 75%, 50%, and 25%. DPS the boss too hard without first clearing out the adds from the previous spice stage, and you'll get overrun. You can't burn through the mechanics because the boss is literally invincible until you complete the mechanics properly. Dranos, too, becomes literally invincible until you deal with the mechanic of his split essence. Velidreth's catacomb stages are health-driven, and if you push the boss too hard, you might end up going down without having had a chance to get a light (more likely to happen on normal).

The new dungeons are very mechanics-oriented with various checks against burn-throughs. And because of this heavy reliance on mechanics, they are perfectly doable even in a group with poor DPS. It's just that people who have poor DPS often aren't very good at mechanics, either...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

You are a minority. You have content appropreately sized to that minority. Veteran trials. Trials in general. Vet Maelstrom, and your rewarded for your time. Keep to your side of the pond and quit trying to invade and annex any side you can, like the PVP twits allways requesting open PVP.

We do have our side of the pond. It's called Veteran Hard Mode. We're perfectly content to stay there. You're the one creating a thread calling for a nerf of Hard Mode. If anyone is playing the role of invader, it is you.

If Hard Mode is too hard, then don't do it. Hell, even I don't do Hard Mode on half of my pledge runs for these new dungeons because if the group that I'm in isn't ideal (with PUGs, with people on alts, etc.), then it's generally not worth the extra time and effort wiping on that boss. And that's fine, because you still a gold key from non-hard mode.

Xal-Nur is very burn proof. Mazzatuns final boss seems designed -for- burning because I dont know of any way your gonna do that without geting overwhelmed.

Dungeons are supposed to be the place where it starts to get challenging but not so much the meta is absolutely needed. I like that place. That's where I've chosen to hang up my hat. So no I wont damn well go away, boyo. I'm staying right here like a hemroid. I dont think the content I paid for, which was advertised as fun new dungeons, should not be *** doable by someone who's been playing this first since beta, then since Tamriel Unlimited's launch.

But it will be nerfed. As we saw with WGT. They'll look at the people completeing what, what stages, how far did they get. And when it no longer becomes profitable for the minority on both PC and console, it will be nerfed or people are gonna start asking for refunds.

And when it happens I'm gonna have fun again. What'll you be doing?

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

Call me when you actually make some valid points aside from strawmanning, and spouting the same arguement that I've presented a counter arguement allready. I got things to do.

code65536

DHale wrote: »

I ran ruins with guildies ppl I know. We were all in TS. We still wiped on the very last boss in hard mode and without hard mode. We can't get the totems down fast enough before you are out of everything. I don't think a lot of pug groups will be able to do it. A few will pull it off if you are 30 k dps plus and that's great... For them for me I want the skill point that's it. Being good at running dungeons is like being good at burping. To spend this much time doing the dungeon to get the "Accoplishment" of running the dungeon to get a helmet with training or prosperous.... Yeah no Bueno. If you do the traditional tank healer 2 dps your dps better bringing it. For me if I need to run non inpen all divine gold gear not going to happen.

You can get the skill point in normal. It's the exact same quest in both modes and the exact same quest reward. You don't get two points per dungeon if you do both normal and vet; there's only one skill point, and you get it regardless of whether you did it on vet or on normal.

That said, yes, you should be going with a traditional tank, healer, 2 DPS setup... at the very least, you need a tank since there is a lot of incoming damage there. The healer could help with the DPS a little. Everyone should save all their ultimates for the totems--that helps a lot.

Wifeaggro13

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

I've done both in veteran. The only time I was one shot ted was failing mechanics on my part.
In addition this is what I am talking about.for the most part if gold geared end game dps show up with a taunt they can do the same job while expelling obscene damage for the role. I am running mostly heavy , 30 k health and 30 k stam. There are no pulls that require me using discerning work. No Los or leashing techniques. Pull one pull em all. I don't find huge challenge in tanking which is odd because the role used to be the quarterback of the group in most MMO's. Now your just the center. Just my humble opinion of Zos game design. They did a worse job then bio ware on their group content

Mojmir

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

I'm neither, I just want a helm with divines.

Doctordarkspawn

Mojmir wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

I'm neither, I just want a helm with divines.

I hear you.

At least I got mine in well fitted, so it's not -completely- useless.

code65536

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Call me when you actually make some valid points aside from strawmanning, and spouting the same arguement that I've presented a counter arguement allready. I got things to do.

Oh, the irony...

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

I've done both in veteran. The only time I was one shot ted was failing mechanics on my part.
In addition this is what I am talking about.for the most part if gold geared end game dps show up with a taunt they can do the same job while expelling obscene damage for the role. I am running mostly heavy , 30 k health and 30 k stam. There are no pulls that require me using discerning work. No Los or leashing techniques. Pull one pull em all. I don't find huge challenge in tanking which is odd because the role used to be the quarterback of the group in most MMO's. Now your just the center. Just my humble opinion of Zos game design. They did a worse job then bio ware on their group content

You don't really need a tank for the trash pulls, though who really cares about the trash pulls? But Chudan with his frontal cleave that will 1-shot a DPS? And 30K health is about what a tank should have anyway, so 30K is certainly not low or unusual for a tank. My nightblade tank runs with 26K health and 36K magicka, and my DK tank runs with 30K health and 28K magicka.

Humatiel

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Finally. As one of the people who -has- been asking for a third tier of difficulty? This is not what I ment. What I ment, is a difficulty tier that makes the dungeons as ballbustingly hard as they were back in Beta, and this is just throwing a bunch of crap and forcing you to DPS -through- the mechanics before they can pile up. And that's bad design I hope this game is trying to outgrow.

DPS through mechanics? Are we talking about the same dungeons? ZOS has learned from previous dungeons and made the new ones very burn-proof. For example, Xal-Nur's spice happens at 75%, 50%, and 25%. DPS the boss too hard without first clearing out the adds from the previous spice stage, and you'll get overrun. You can't burn through the mechanics because the boss is literally invincible until you complete the mechanics properly. Dranos, too, becomes literally invincible until you deal with the mechanic of his split essence. Velidreth's catacomb stages are health-driven, and if you push the boss too hard, you might end up going down without having had a chance to get a light (more likely to happen on normal).

The new dungeons are very mechanics-oriented with various checks against burn-throughs. And because of this heavy reliance on mechanics, they are perfectly doable even in a group with poor DPS. It's just that people who have poor DPS often aren't very good at mechanics, either...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

You are a minority. You have content appropreately sized to that minority. Veteran trials. Trials in general. Vet Maelstrom, and your rewarded for your time. Keep to your side of the pond and quit trying to invade and annex any side you can, like the PVP twits allways requesting open PVP.

We do have our side of the pond. It's called Veteran Hard Mode. We're perfectly content to stay there. You're the one creating a thread calling for a nerf of Hard Mode. If anyone is playing the role of invader, it is you.

If Hard Mode is too hard, then don't do it. Hell, even I don't do Hard Mode on half of my pledge runs for these new dungeons because if the group that I'm in isn't ideal (with PUGs, with people on alts, etc.), then it's generally not worth the extra time and effort wiping on that boss. And that's fine, because you still a gold key from non-hard mode.

Xal-Nur is very burn proof. Mazzatuns final boss seems designed -for- burning because I dont know of any way your gonna do that without geting overwhelmed.

Dungeons are supposed to be the place where it starts to get challenging but not so much the meta is absolutely needed. I like that place. That's where I've chosen to hang up my hat. So no I wont damn well go away, boyo. I'm staying right here like a hemroid. I dont think the content I paid for, which was advertised as fun new dungeons, should not be *** doable by someone who's been playing this first since beta, then since Tamriel Unlimited's launch.

But it will be nerfed. As we saw with WGT. They'll look at the people completeing what, what stages, how far did they get. And when it no longer becomes profitable for the minority on both PC and console, it will be nerfed or people are gonna start asking for refunds.

And when it happens I'm gonna have fun again. What'll you be doing?

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

Call me when you actually make some valid points aside from strawmanning, and spouting the same arguement that I've presented a counter arguement allready. I got things to do.

So just to be clear, you've posted a topic on a community forum to tell everyone in the community to go away. Followed by snarky and insulting responses along the lines of "i'm to busy for the likes of you". Which is then followed by you continuing to comment on every single post after that.

AND THEN to wrap it all up the only mildly legitimate opinion you've made in any of your posts seems to be that you're to good for normal mode and hard mode is to hard (not that your to inexperienced) and that it simply CANNOT be done. Even though skins have been running around since day one.

[Edit to remove troll-calling]

Wifeaggro13

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Call me when you actually make some valid points aside from strawmanning, and spouting the same arguement that I've presented a counter arguement allready. I got things to do.

Oh, the irony...

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think that the current balance between the three modes is fine, and the people who think that one mode is too hard but then turn their nose up at the possibility of doing the exact same dungeon and content in an easier mode. You think vet hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do vet without hard mode! You think vet without hard mode is too hard? There's a solution! Do normal mode! Is normal mode too hard? Well, okay, we can talk about that if that's really the case.

It's like someone walking into a restaurant and ordering the "hot" version of a menu item instead of ordering the "mild" version and then demanding that it should be made less spicy instead of, well, ordering the "mild" version.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Most of all the content can be done with no tank when properly geared dps that can punch out the numbers.

You definitely want and need a tank for vRoM and vCoS. And the stuff there hit hard--very hard. I've been one-shot as a tank in both dungeons when I got caught on a vulnerability frame during barswap or when I am drained of resources to block. Of course, you don't want a 7H super-high-health tank for this or any other content for the simple reason that tanks in 7H and too much health have sacrificed too much in the resource and utility department. But you definitely do want--and need--a real tank.

I've done both in veteran. The only time I was one shot ted was failing mechanics on my part.
In addition this is what I am talking about.for the most part if gold geared end game dps show up with a taunt they can do the same job while expelling obscene damage for the role. I am running mostly heavy , 30 k health and 30 k stam. There are no pulls that require me using discerning work. No Los or leashing techniques. Pull one pull em all. I don't find huge challenge in tanking which is odd because the role used to be the quarterback of the group in most MMO's. Now your just the center. Just my humble opinion of Zos game design. They did a worse job then bio ware on their group content

You don't really need a tank for the trash pulls, though who really cares about the trash pulls? But Chudan with his frontal cleave that will 1-shot a DPS? And 30K health is about what a tank should have anyway, so 30K is certainly not low or unusual for a tank. My nightblade tank runs with 26K health and 36K magicka, and my DK tank runs with 30K health and 28K magicka.

Well tars where I guess I'm old school. I prefer difficult trash fore thought and strategy. That being said tank is situational and considering there is no dual spec in the CP system . Really what you need is a dps that has some tank gear, because a tanked CP in heavy even carrying an alternative dps set will never put out the damage a dps'd CP spec will. There is not Tru tanks in this game it's an after thought

valthierX

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

Wifeaggro13

valthierX wrote: »

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

Well don't feel so bad I bought the thieves guild and brotherhood that are absloutely garbage. Nothing mmo about them. They are garbage quest zones that should have been included with the game purchase.

SienneYviete

valthierX wrote: »

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

Or just run normal versions of these dungeons until you're confident to step into veteran, you still get gear and they are stupidly easy on normal.

Doctordarkspawn

SienneYviete wrote: »

valthierX wrote: »

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

Or just run normal versions of these dungeons until you're confident to step into veteran, you still get gear and they are stupidly easy on normal.

Their not even that hard on Vet. (Reletively speaking.) It's just the final bosses and double golds that suck.

Carbonised

valthierX wrote: »

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

That's pretty much what I feel too.

Finally finished CoS on vet today, after a lot of frustration. Vet Mazzatun we had to leave halfway, since everyone kept dying at Xal-Nur or whatever the hell is the name of the invulnerable boss. And we're talking four cp480+ players who otherwise were doing well, and who looked up the mechanics and knew what to do. Can't imagine how it would go against the last boss, it seems to be a real bummer.

So yeah, that's 2 dungeons I will never do again (and don't even get me started on the achievements which are never going to happen), and I don't even need the sets they drop, for apparently ZOS forgot to add anything useful for a magicka DPS - again.

Thief Guild and DB DLCs were at least marketed as story and guild focused DLCs with new lands and quests, I didn't see Hist being marketed as a psychopathic hard grind that's apparently only enjoyed by 2 % of the player base.

So yeah, refund ZOS?

Brittany_Joy

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

So what you are asking for is a in-between mode that WoW has which is heroic dungeons, the gateway into hardcore PvE raiding.

Doctordarkspawn

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

So what you are asking for is a in-between mode that WoW has which is heroic dungeons, the gateway into hardcore PvE raiding.

Basicly.

Ep1kMalware

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Scream and have hissy fits as much as you like, fact is that all you so-called 'hardcore' players are a vocal minority, and ZOS shouldn't make content solely for you, no. Find some other MMO to infect. (...)

You know why hardcore players are less vocal? Because we are too busy playing instead of flooding the forum with nerfs request. You should l2p and gitgud instead of asking Zos to nerf everything.

Do you know why you so-called 'hardcore' players are a tumor in this game? You incessantly cry for more challenge, but the truth is you don't really want challenge per se. What would be a challenge for you would to team up with some lesser experienced players, run them through some of the Hist or IC dungeons, teach them how to do it, and put up with the less than stellar performance and sub-par setup. That would be a challenge for you as a player, and it would provide your fellow players with the necessary experience and skills to actually complete the content.

But no, that's not what you do, because you only want challenge if it means distinguishing yourself above the heads of the lower rabble. Those mere plebs who have to 'l2p' and 'gitgud'. That's why you run all the endgame content with your fave 3 bros over and over again, sneering down at anyone who dares to join in, asking for their achievements as proof, and turning them away with a snide smirk telling them they dont' have 'exp'.
That's why you're nothing but toxic and a tumor to this game, you don't care a single squat about challenge, you just don't want content to be done by anyone else, so you can feel so bloody special, ...

reminds me of a friens on ps4. he wanted to join one of mt guilds and geat vmol too. Well, he got really demanding about it so I told him we could do a bloodspawn test to see what his dps/skill setup is.

we get in there and his dps clocked out at an estimated 3-4k. Okay, it sucks. I mean REALLY sucks, but there's no point in being a *** about it, so I told him he's not quite ready for vet maw. (i didnt say he sucked, or l2p, just said he wasnt ready)

next thing I know he told other guildmates I was rude and he did fine, wasn't until after I posted his dps test on the guild fb page that the drama stopped.

my point is, even the best player is still only trying to improve. the problem isn't zos it's people's attitudes. If nobody wants to run soth dungeons with you because you're in heavy armour spming snipe so what? either take a hint or run with someone else. I've heard all kinds of different *** about elitest this, casuals that. Idk wtf you smoked to make you think the ingame communitt is actually anything remotely resembling that, I've seen and have kicked players from groups who 'sucked, amd were unresponsive. [iI've also seen and personally have teleported out of wft to make gear for a teamate in a pug group to help them through it.

this tumor/toxicity you speak of, doesn't actually exist. If you get kicked out of groups frequently, I highly suggest you start looking at why because it's probably comming from your attitude.

Ep1kMalware

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Now, we finally have hard modes that matter. And this is a good change. People have been asking repeatedly for three tiers of difficulty: one for most players (normal), one for the good--but not hardcore--players who want a challenge (vet), and one for the hardcore players (vet HM). So much of the new content--Maelstrom and Maw in particular--cater to just the first and third groups while leaving the middle group feeling left out. And now we finally have content that (somewhat) satisfies the need for more difficulty tiers, and your response is to complain about it?

The problem is, there is no actual third difficulty tier. There is no middle ground. The Normal mode is too damn easy and the Vet versions are too damn hard for most casual players, especially after they have nerfed Regen into the ground once again.

If they are going to keep things at this difficulty, then they are going to have to actually either nerf the Vet versions to be more in line with what they used to be, but properly scaled up, or they are going to have to create an actual Third Tier, especially for Trials.

Prior to this DLC I used to run Vet Trials with my guilds. We were able to accomplish them even with players not wearing specific armour to meet Meta requirements. It was challenging and it was fun and we could usually get two runs in, in a three hour timeline.

NOW, with the way they have scaled Vet Trials, no one is my guilds have been able to get anywhere near the end of them. We have even had one of the people in that video who actually did make it through with his Elite Guild come into ours and he basically told everyone, if you want to finish it, then you have to wear such and such gear to meet Meta and have to have such and such DPS otherwise there is no point.
That confirmed to me right there that only the top Elite Guilds are ever going to be able to complete the Vet Trails as they stand right now.

And before you jump down my throat for essentially calling for a nerf, I don't mind challenging content. I don't mind having to follow mechanics and take my time and having to think about things. What I do mind is what equates to banging my head against the wall repeatedly trying to do something that was designed in such a way as to actually hinder my ability to do it unless I fit into this specific cookie cutter build.
That crap isn't fun and I don't stay with things very long that are not fun.

Add onto that the fact that most players don't have 3+ hours at a time to dedicate to trying to take down the Vet versions of the new dungeons or the Vet trials.

For the new Vet Dungeons, and I have had lengthy conversations with others whom have completed them on Vet, (and yes, I have tanked both on Vet and completed them), they need a reasonable 10% reduction in damage output and health.

For the Vet Trials, the bosses themselves should be scaled back a little (10-15%). However, the real issue I see most people having is with the adds being scaled to rediculous proportions of over 1+million HP each, and new harder adds being added, such as the Overchargers in AA.
Scale the adds back down to what they are on Normal, but leave the actual Bosses to what they are and it gives players who don't have over 3+ hours and "Meta" gear a fighting chance to actually complete Vet dungeons while still having to pay attention to mechanics.

Have I purchased the Shadow of the Hist DLC? Nope, and I won't either. The only reason I have access to it right now is because my sub hasn't run out yet.

I would honestly love to see the Devs actually play these dungeons and trials on Vet modes without any of their cheat codes/God modes to see how they react and if they can do it because I am pretty well convinced they don't really play their own game unless they are using god mode or are on normal (easy) mode.

I feel bad for you, I really do. It sounds as if you're frustrated. I hope that you find a way to complete the Trials.

That being said, I've tanked them too, I've dps'd them as well. None of what you're calling for is accurate.

A decent, well organized and well equiped guild group can complete any Vet Trial (Except Maw) in an hour and a half. That is *with* deaths and probably at least one wipe on places where the team splits up.

Your guild did not do "Veteran Trials" before the update. You did "Regular Trials" that also happened to have a Difficult Mode attached to them (Breaking the Statues, Burning the Banners, Smashing the Orbs). You can still do Regular Trials. Good Guilds can complete Veteran Trials and Great Guilds can complete Veteran Trials on Difficult Mode. I'm sorry to say this, but I will bet money you weren't beating the Trials before you were VR16 (now CP160). I'm willing to lose that bet if it's not the case, but likely you were running builds you "liked" against VR12 and VR14 mobs at VR16 and you were beating them by the sheer difference in power level. Now that that's gone you realize you were only on a small foothill standing next to Mount Olympus.

The same goes for Dungeons. We were spanking City of Ash on Veteran Difficult Mode when there was no Champion System and when 14 was as high as it could go. Sure it took us a few tries, but it was totally possible, now we've got new content that takes some tries but it is highly doable and we even have the added benefit of adjusting CP so that we maximize what will give us the greatest benefits.

If the Dungeons Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it. If the Trials Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it.

Otherwise, just practice and work at it. You can do a lot without resorting to "cookie cutter". You can learn from the people who've done extensive testing and theorycrafting and you can figure out what they say that works for you and what you are willing to turn your nose up and you can accept the consequences of those actions without claiming that it's "not fun".

All of this is easy to do, sure it's easier for me because I can beat the Veteran Trials and the Difficult Mode levels of Dungeons, but that's because I've worked at it and worked at it and worked at it. I beat my head against AA and Hel Ra so many times back when 12 was the highest Veteran Rank, eventually I beat them, right before 14 was introduced. However, even if it weren't easy for me to complete those things I'd be cool with it. I am a terrible awful freaking abysmal PvP player and I've accepted that I will never get the Emp costume, never earn Proxy Det or Caltrops on all my alts, and never get some of those rather cool rewards I see people score from lockboxes. I'm cool with that because I can rock PvE pretty hard. Find your niche and be cool with it.

So with that all being said.

Stop asking for reductions in difficulty after only a few weeks of a dungeon or trial being live, please.

I hate to break it to you, but the guilds I ran with indeed did Vet Trials and finished them on hard mode prior to this update. Would you like a screen shot of the gold jewelry I received from making leaderboard just to prove it?

You think my requests are unreasonable, just wait until the console users start flooding the forums with their complaints, then you will see unreasonable. I at least am being reasonable in stating it requires a small adjustment to allow many other players to enjoy the content they paid for and not feel like they are just beating their heads against a brick wall.

there were no vet trials since db. there were normal trials, with hardmode. I'd explain further but I'm already seeing this post as 'pearls before swine'.

if you knew anything, even a modicum of information about trials you'd know that vet modes ,erely include the mehanics of the old 'normal' trials, normal mode has those mechanics gutted out, and you've always been able to obtain golden lewt from leaderboards, vet or non vet.

non sequiter

code65536

Carbonised wrote: »

valthierX wrote: »

I shouldn't have bought Shadows of the Hist as this dlc is only intended for the hardcore gamer which I'm not. A dlc which I wouldn't be enjoying and likely would be avoiding. Bummer.

That's pretty much what I feel too.

Finally finished CoS on vet today, after a lot of frustration. Vet Mazzatun we had to leave halfway, since everyone kept dying at Xal-Nur or whatever the hell is the name of the invulnerable boss. And we're talking four cp480+ players who otherwise were doing well, and who looked up the mechanics and knew what to do. Can't imagine how it would go against the last boss, it seems to be a real bummer.

So yeah, that's 2 dungeons I will never do again (and don't even get me started on the achievements which are never going to happen), and I don't even need the sets they drop, for apparently ZOS forgot to add anything useful for a magicka DPS - again.

Thief Guild and DB DLCs were at least marketed as story and guild focused DLCs with new lands and quests, I didn't see Hist being marketed as a psychopathic hard grind that's apparently only enjoyed by 2 % of the player base.

So yeah, refund ZOS?

Why does it have to be vet mode? You get the exact same dungeon, with the same questline, same enemies, and same loot (just spend a few purple mats to improve each one), except without the frustration or the "psychopathic" difficulty.

SotH is marketed as a DLC that gives you two dungeons, and that's exactly what it is.

It is your choice to run them in a difficulty mode that is higher than what you're comfortable with. There is a Normal mode designed for, well, the average normal player. Now, if the Normal mode didn't exist or if people have trouble clearing that, then I would agree that things are too hard. But you're complaining that a totally voluntary challenge is too challenging.

You: "This dungeon is for masochists. I demand an easier version."
ZOS: "But we already gave you an easier version that you ignored."

Furthermore, first clears are always rough. And it gets much easier after that. My first clear of vMA cost me hundreds of deaths. My most recent clear cost me 3 deaths. My first clear of vICP was a 3+ hour wipefest. These days, it takes about half an hour. You've cleared vCoS. Congrats. It'll get easier the next time. And the time after that. Frankly, once you've done vCoS enough times, it feels easier than vWGT and vICP. It just seems hard now because it's new and you've had zero practice with it.

Ep1kMalware

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

I like how you portray the "casual" side of the argument as the civilized group. from reading all these posts the more civilized answers have been from the groups in opposition of nerfs.

The onlt 'division' is the one you created between two non existent groups misrepresentated to fufill the needs of your own biased views.

I'm guessing it'a just 'us', or 'them', no indivdual perspectives exist here?

Khairiah

Now this being a very divided thread. As for me personally I have yet to get acces to SOH (im PS4) but im really looking forward to new and challenging content. With this said im against a nerf of anything in the new content, its only been out a couple of weeks. I did vSO within the first week of release, but it did indeed take alot of effort and time. First clear was in 6.5h without HM and now its down to 1h30ish on HM.
Now I dont consider myself a "Hardcore" player, but I dont wanna be able to breeze thru everything in a game. New content and endgame content is supposed to be difficult. And thoose who only play 4 hours a week and call for nerfs and want to do end game HM content should find a different game to play.

Brrrofski

Well these come out today for xbox. Really hope they're a challenge.

When me and some guildies finally got icp and wgt on farm it felt rewarding. Getting the no death and speed runs was awesome.

I hope these new dungeons provide the same challenge and I get a similar feeling.

If it's too hard to pug, join a guild. That's what the people who do these dungeons did. Do dungeons with people that put time into putting a build together good enough. Everytime I pug there's always someone in heavy armor spamming brawler. Join a guild, talk to people and work towards getting the dungeons done.

I can't wait for the challenge. Definitely want to be that guy rocking the skin for no death and speed runs within the first few days.

Tonnopesce

I agree that the two dungeons are pretty hard but not so extreme as people want to picture them.

Sunday when COS was on rotation for the gold pledge i've decided to go pug since none of my guildies wanted to do it,
there was a stamina sorcerer equipped with pvp gear(500 cp), a quite good stamina NB (531 cp) , a noob templar healer (240CP) and myself with my DK tank ( note the healer and the sorcerer where in COS for the first time)

While i've carried the group tru the dungeon for the most part without the need to explain nothing, there is the second BOSS ( fourth considering the minibosses) that have some nasty mechanics expecially the "one shot the tank" that cannot be avoided.
It took us tree try to kill him but it was a good result for a pug ( since they where not able to understand the adds/orbs part i've decided to give them a free achievement ).

Even Velidreth took us a while probably 6 try ( and several minutes of me explaining how to do it) but in the end we have done it not hard mode.

The dungeons are NEW not everyone want to check the pros (like @Alcast ) who make good videos explaining HOW to do things in the game , but everyone want to faceroll tru everything .

After 3 wipes on Velidreth the healer started to talk *** about the instance and that a nerf is needed and i simply told him ,that you cannot pretend that every instance in the game can be done at the first try, and maybe if he follows the mechanics instead of pretend to have an easy mode we can do it .

STOP COMPLAINING .

Vildebill

Come on, why do you wish to be catered with a dungeon walk-through instead of something to work with? Finally we have some new dungeons which are somewhat challenging, at least some bosses. I hardly struggled at all on vCoS first time i ran it, it took some tries on Velidreth to get the hang of the mechanics, but that wasn't very hard either. vRoM was a little tougher but still VERY doable if you take time to learn the mechanics on the bosses. Compare that to how hard vWGT or vICP was the first time you ran them (at least in my case). They nerfed them to hell so you even can ignore mechanics, where is the fun in that? Would be a shame if the same was done to these new dungeons.

Why are you even playing dungeons if you just want the guided tour?

Doctordarkspawn

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There seem to be two main groups of people in this thread. The people who think it needs toned down, and the people screaming about filthy casuals. If the divide isn't clear now, I dont think it will ever be.

I like how you portray the "casual" side of the argument as the civilized group. from reading all these posts the more civilized answers have been from the groups in opposition of nerfs.

The onlt 'division' is the one you created between two non existent groups misrepresentated to fufill the needs of your own biased views.

I'm guessing it'a just 'us', or 'them', no indivdual perspectives exist here?

If you wanna judge the people opposing nerfs as 'civil', then go ahed, feel free to draw your own conclusions. I continue to call it like I see it.

Doctordarkspawn

Tonnopesce wrote: »

I agree that the two dungeons are pretty hard but not so extreme as people want to picture them.

Sunday when COS was on rotation for the gold pledge i've decided to go pug since none of my guildies wanted to do it,
there was a stamina sorcerer equipped with pvp gear(500 cp), a quite good stamina NB (531 cp) , a noob templar healer (240CP) and myself with my DK tank ( note the healer and the sorcerer where in COS for the first time)

While i've carried the group tru the dungeon for the most part without the need to explain nothing, there is the second BOSS ( fourth considering the minibosses) that have some nasty mechanics expecially the "one shot the tank" that cannot be avoided.
It took us tree try to kill him but it was a good result for a pug ( since they where not able to understand the adds/orbs part i've decided to give them a free achievement ).

Even Velidreth took us a while probably 6 try ( and several minutes of me explaining how to do it) but in the end we have done it not hard mode.

The dungeons are NEW not everyone want to check the pros (like @Alcast ) who make good videos explaining HOW to do things in the game , but everyone want to faceroll tru everything .

After 3 wipes on Velidreth the healer started to talk *** about the instance and that a nerf is needed and i simply told him ,that you cannot pretend that every instance in the game can be done at the first try, and maybe if he follows the mechanics instead of pretend to have an easy mode we can do it .

STOP COMPLAINING .

"Stop complaining."

I will not silence myself. I dont care what your healer said or did or under what conditions he said and did them. I will not silence my complaints based on my experiences and I suggest no one in this thread do so either.

Doctordarkspawn

Vildebill wrote: »

Come on, why do you wish to be catered with a dungeon walk-through instead of something to work with? Finally we have some new dungeons which are somewhat challenging, at least some bosses. I hardly struggled at all on vCoS first time i ran it, it took some tries on Velidreth to get the hang of the mechanics, but that wasn't very hard either. vRoM was a little tougher but still VERY doable if you take time to learn the mechanics on the bosses. Compare that to how hard vWGT or vICP was the first time you ran them (at least in my case). They nerfed them to hell so you even can ignore mechanics, where is the fun in that? Would be a shame if the same was done to these new dungeons.

Why are you even playing dungeons if you just want the guided tour?

The 'why do you want a theme park' thing does not satisfy any of the complaints which have been:

"The final boss mechanics on hard mode are far too much"

"Basic mob resistance is too high"

And isn't a solution like the ones currently discussed in this thread which have been:

"Better advertising for the difficulty of the content so players are not mislead."

"A 'Expert' or 'Elite' difficulty that will restore all dungeons, not just these, to the vanilla style of difficulty."

"Slight tweaks to the very hard boss mechanics to make them more manageable."

Please either despute the points made, or add a solution to the list of solutions people have come up with. Be constructive.

Doctordarkspawn

It would be nice if people didn't come in here asking why we want to be pandered to like that one guy who allways goes 'why use a controller' on every controller support thread in existance.