Problems with the Shadows Of The Hist dungeons

Doctordarkspawn

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a [Snip] of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

[Edit to remove profanity]

UltimaJoe777

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a [Snip] of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

Doctordarkspawn

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

...And if this were a raid that would be true and we would be 100% in agreement, but this isn't a raid bucko. Wrong thread.

Also, *** the Meta. Dungeons are where the Meta shouldn't matter. No. Get out of here.

Abeille

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

mdylan2013

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

...And if this were a raid that would be true and we would be 100% in agreement, but this isn't a raid bucko. Wrong thread.

Also, *** the Meta. Dungeons are where the Meta shouldn't matter. No. Get out of here.

But there are no real 'difficult' four person dungeons atm (I'm a console player). So a tough dungeon or two to replace ICP can only be a good thing.

Doctordarkspawn

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

Doctordarkspawn

mdylan2013 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

...And if this were a raid that would be true and we would be 100% in agreement, but this isn't a raid bucko. Wrong thread.

Also, *** the Meta. Dungeons are where the Meta shouldn't matter. No. Get out of here.

But there are no real 'difficult' four person dungeons atm (I'm a console player). So a tough dungeon or two to replace ICP can only be a good thing.

I refer you to the point where I said the hard stuff needed to go to trials. That ain' changin'. Wrong thread, bucko.

And no. It cant be a good thing. A third difficulty option, could be a good thing. This isn't a good thing.

Lore_lai

Meh. I'd like them to have higher difficulty that requires coordination etc.

Too much nerf nerf nerf.
Only time I think it's kind of a bummer is when you get screwed by RNG.
Like, we almost had HM ruins last boss down (with one of our DPS 160CP only and in half-purple gear) and when she goes in to her crazy final stage BAM, I get the hallucinations on me and I can't heal, and at that point there is so much damage going out + adds spawned that we wiped because of that, before I had any time to destroy the statue.

Definitely doable though, just takes practice - just like any thing that's supposed to be, you know, an achievement?

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a [Snip] of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

I agree with your stance that hardcore content should be for trails, vet dungeons should be doable for the decent pugs.

Also i mean no offence, but why do you use the word "buggery"?
Is it your way of feeling cheated. I have a different thinking of what this word means.

Personofsecrets

There are too many mechanics. That is for sure.

Running through a maze RNG fest actually sucks horribly. It's like taking a nice meal and adding way too much salt to it.

Darlon

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

...And if this were a raid that would be true and we would be 100% in agreement, but this isn't a raid bucko. Wrong thread.

Also, *** the Meta. Dungeons are where the Meta shouldn't matter. No. Get out of here.

But there are no real 'difficult' four person dungeons atm (I'm a console player). So a tough dungeon or two to replace ICP can only be a good thing.

I refer you to the point where I said the hard stuff needed to go to trials. That ain' changin'. Wrong thread, bucko.

And no. It cant be a good thing. A third difficulty option, could be a good thing. This isn't a good thing.

That's your opinion, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean his opinion is wrong, and I agree with him. The fact that there's now 2 dungeons with a challenging hard mode is a good thing.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

Well, I agree with @UltimaJoe777 , that there needs to be hard delvs.. They nerfed ICP and WGT to where they are too easy.. No More Nerfs!!
As far as this dungeon, watch the designers play it, and hear them discuss how:
1. They made this dungeon to make groups work more together.
2. New mechanics to make the battles harder, and the group to be more in sync with each other.
3. And toward the end it is mentioned, "This is not designed to be pug friendly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwqZjVgt0Es

Just my 2 septims... Huzzah!

Abeille

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

I disagree that hardcore stuff should be for trials only because wanting to play endgame pve doesn't equal wanting to do it on big groups. I think it is important to have hardcore content for people who prefer playing with less people too. Even when you are in an Endgame PvE guild, you might take some time to find 11 other people to run a trial with, while finding 3 other people to run a dungeon in hard mode is much quicker.

To be honest, I would prefer if everything scaled with the number of people in the group (but I know it is not a popular opinion).

But maybe it has nothing to do with catering to different kinds of player. Maybe it is just because it is easier, from a development standpoint, to add a hard mode to a 4-players dungeon than to develop a new 12-players trial, when making endgame pve content.

Doctordarkspawn

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

Well, I agree with @UltimaJoe777 , that there needs to be hard delvs.. They nerfed ICP and WGT to where they are too easy.. No More Nerfs!!
As far as this dungeon, watch the designers play it, and hear them discuss how:
1. They made this dungeon to make groups work more together.
2. New mechanics to make the battles harder, and the group to be more in sync with each other.
3. And toward the end it is mentioned, "This is not designed to be pug friendly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwqZjVgt0Es

Just my 2 septims... Huzzah!

"This was not designed to be Pug friendly"

And this is the part where I ask why these absolute *** still have jobs in Zenimax.

This also confirms suspicions I had though. Their pandering to the 1%ers who want extreme difficulty and once they see nobody *** buys it or asks for refunds because that audience is so small they'll nerf it.

Was the cycle with ICP and WGT. Was the cycle with Craglorn. Will be the cycle with this.

Doctordarkspawn

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

I disagree that hardcore stuff should be for trials only because wanting to play endgame pve doesn't equal wanting to do it on big groups. I think it is important to have hardcore content for people who prefer playing with less people too. Even when you are in an Endgame PvE guild, you might take some time to find 11 other people to run a trial with, while finding 3 other people to run a dungeon in hard mode is much quicker.

To be honest, I would prefer if everything scaled with the number of people in the group (but I know it is not a popular opinion).

But maybe it has nothing to do with catering to different kinds of player. Maybe it is just because it is easier, from a development standpoint, to add a hard mode to a 4-players dungeon than to develop a new 12-players trial, when making endgame pve content.

Actually yes there is something wrong with catering to different kinds of player. If this were a single player release this wouldn't be an issue. Back in the day, you released an expansion and it had something for all audiences. The hardcore crowd. The idiots. The semi decent players. And you got money because it had something for everyone.

...But this game tries to do *** for 'one type of player' and it has allways, and will allways fail. Craglorn. ICP and WGT when they were first released. (A situation that didn't change because of how the bosses were fundementally designed.) And what has been the result? Craglorn is a wasteland their likely going to adapt for single player base that *** didn't sell. They nerfed WGT and ICP. If enough people go 'they arrent worth it', people wont spend the money. And then they'll backpeddle like the wind.

It. Is. The. Cycle. The people who want difficulty do not outnumber the people who dont. And it will show, given time.

kongkim

For the first time there is a dungeon were people need to learn it and not just DPS the hell out of it. its nice and and good thing to see. Its hard right now. But give it time

Doctordarkspawn

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

I agree with your stance that hardcore content should be for trails, vet dungeons should be doable for the decent pugs.

Also i mean no offence, but why do you use the word "buggery"?
Is it your way of feeling cheated. I have a different thinking of what this word means.

I apologize, Buggery, bugger, and all forms therein are like...I dont know where I first heard them, but their slang for 'f*ck'. I also use bloody in the same context. I'm weird, I know.

Abeille

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

I disagree that hardcore stuff should be for trials only because wanting to play endgame pve doesn't equal wanting to do it on big groups. I think it is important to have hardcore content for people who prefer playing with less people too. Even when you are in an Endgame PvE guild, you might take some time to find 11 other people to run a trial with, while finding 3 other people to run a dungeon in hard mode is much quicker.

To be honest, I would prefer if everything scaled with the number of people in the group (but I know it is not a popular opinion).

But maybe it has nothing to do with catering to different kinds of player. Maybe it is just because it is easier, from a development standpoint, to add a hard mode to a 4-players dungeon than to develop a new 12-players trial, when making endgame pve content.

Actually yes there is something wrong with catering to different kinds of player. If this were a single player release this wouldn't be an issue. Back in the day, you released an expansion and it had something for all audiences. The hardcore crowd. The idiots. The semi decent players. And you got money because it had something for everyone.

...But this game tries to do *** for 'one type of player' and it has allways, and will allways fail. Craglorn. ICP and WGT when they were first released. (A situation that didn't change because of how the bosses were fundementally designed.) And what has been the result? Craglorn is a wasteland their likely going to adapt for single player base that *** didn't sell. They nerfed WGT and ICP. If enough people go 'they arrent worth it', people wont spend the money. And then they'll backpeddle like the wind.

It. Is. The. Cycle. The people who want difficulty do not outnumber the people who dont. And it will show, given time.

Okay, but easy content vastly outnumbers hard content in this game.

They are not doing everything for hardcore players. Three out of the five paid DLCs they released were mostly solo with very little actually challenging content - Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Almost every dungeon in the game is pug friendly. Surely it can't be so bad if every now and then they release something for a different kind of player.

Not everyone will do all the content.

Edit: About Craglorn, I was here when it was released - both lower and upper Craglorn. It had a lot of people there. It is a wasteland now because they nerfed the xp gains to the ground, which is not reasonable taking into consideration the groups of enemies are harder there than in other maps (although you can solo them if you have a build for tackling groups of enemies) and because it is outdated; it didn't got brought up to the max level (point being, people abandoned the content because it wasn't rewarding, not because it was hard).

Doctordarkspawn

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

I disagree that hardcore stuff should be for trials only because wanting to play endgame pve doesn't equal wanting to do it on big groups. I think it is important to have hardcore content for people who prefer playing with less people too. Even when you are in an Endgame PvE guild, you might take some time to find 11 other people to run a trial with, while finding 3 other people to run a dungeon in hard mode is much quicker.

To be honest, I would prefer if everything scaled with the number of people in the group (but I know it is not a popular opinion).

But maybe it has nothing to do with catering to different kinds of player. Maybe it is just because it is easier, from a development standpoint, to add a hard mode to a 4-players dungeon than to develop a new 12-players trial, when making endgame pve content.

Actually yes there is something wrong with catering to different kinds of player. If this were a single player release this wouldn't be an issue. Back in the day, you released an expansion and it had something for all audiences. The hardcore crowd. The idiots. The semi decent players. And you got money because it had something for everyone.

...But this game tries to do *** for 'one type of player' and it has allways, and will allways fail. Craglorn. ICP and WGT when they were first released. (A situation that didn't change because of how the bosses were fundementally designed.) And what has been the result? Craglorn is a wasteland their likely going to adapt for single player base that *** didn't sell. They nerfed WGT and ICP. If enough people go 'they arrent worth it', people wont spend the money. And then they'll backpeddle like the wind.

It. Is. The. Cycle. The people who want difficulty do not outnumber the people who dont. And it will show, given time.

Okay, but easy content vastly outnumbers hard content in this game.

They are not doing everything for hardcore players. Three out of the five paid DLCs they released were mostly solo with very little actually challenging content - Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Almost every dungeon in the game is pug friendly. Surely it can't be so bad if every now and then they release something for a different kind of player.

Not everyone will do all the content.

Edit: About Craglorn, I was here when it was released - both lower and upper Craglorn. It had a lot of people there. It is a wasteland now because they nerfed the xp gains to the ground, which is not reasonable taking into consideration the groups of enemies are harder there than in other maps (although you can solo them if you have a build for tackling groups of enemies) and because it is outdated; it didn't got brought up to the max level (point being, people abandoned the content because it wasn't rewarding, not because it was hard).

"Very little challenging content in them" Oddly enough....no, those DLC's conformed to the philosophy I stated.

Orsinium had Maelstrom, something that remains the pinacle of hardcore single player content in this game. (I think it's poorly designed, but ZOS has shown to be unflinching on it, and I dont care enough to rant about it.)

Thieves guild had Maw of Lorkhaj, a trial recieved extremely well because the players who wanted challenging trials then got it.

With Dark Brotherhood, we got revamps of all the previous trials and the trials people rejoiced. I've heard their much harder now.

...Shadows of the Hist released and only one percent of the playerbase is even grouping for it. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just dosent belong. The content that sold was the content that had something for everyone. Not the stuff focused toward a particular audience.

As for Craglorn, the XP gains, the fact all the quests need four players, the fact you basicly cant do *** with the content now because anybody who wants to do them does them once and promptly forgets about them. Yeah. It was a zone designed around group play and nobody asked for that. Thank *** they didn't release Murkmrie with that. Hopefully they dont release Murkmire like that.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Resource draining mechanics are the absolute WORST. First of all, regen was nerfed across the board with this patch, so it's much much harder to do any long fights in this game anymore period. And when you throw in mechanics that literally drain all of a certain resource, you can't even spend time doing the actual mechanics.

And then you throw in a mechanic where the boss automatically stuns you while you are trying to res, well, that's just silly.

Abeille

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

(Queue too many cooks theme.)

You are evil. This song is going to be stuck in my head the whole week again -.-'

Regarding your issues with the dungeons, I think that the problem is that they are not really for pugs, especially the hard modes. This is just a hunch because I can't possibly know what ZOS had in mind when they made them, but I imagine they wanted this content to be geared towards endgame PvE guilds (like you said in the end of your post). I understand that this can be frustrating to, well, everybody else, but the endgame PvE guilds are part of the player base too and deserve to have content made for them.

See, I disagree. And thank you for being civil, I cant promote that enough.

I dont think this is a Pug Issue. Though ruins is certainly geared toward people with TS much like Planar inhibitor is, I dont think that needs to stop it from being Pug friendly. I think that is' really just a matter of 'tone it down a bit guys and save the hardcore stuff for trials'. I think they just went overboard. And thus is why we tweak and have patches.

I disagree that hardcore stuff should be for trials only because wanting to play endgame pve doesn't equal wanting to do it on big groups. I think it is important to have hardcore content for people who prefer playing with less people too. Even when you are in an Endgame PvE guild, you might take some time to find 11 other people to run a trial with, while finding 3 other people to run a dungeon in hard mode is much quicker.

To be honest, I would prefer if everything scaled with the number of people in the group (but I know it is not a popular opinion).

But maybe it has nothing to do with catering to different kinds of player. Maybe it is just because it is easier, from a development standpoint, to add a hard mode to a 4-players dungeon than to develop a new 12-players trial, when making endgame pve content.

Actually yes there is something wrong with catering to different kinds of player. If this were a single player release this wouldn't be an issue. Back in the day, you released an expansion and it had something for all audiences. The hardcore crowd. The idiots. The semi decent players. And you got money because it had something for everyone.

...But this game tries to do *** for 'one type of player' and it has allways, and will allways fail. Craglorn. ICP and WGT when they were first released. (A situation that didn't change because of how the bosses were fundementally designed.) And what has been the result? Craglorn is a wasteland their likely going to adapt for single player base that *** didn't sell. They nerfed WGT and ICP. If enough people go 'they arrent worth it', people wont spend the money. And then they'll backpeddle like the wind.

It. Is. The. Cycle. The people who want difficulty do not outnumber the people who dont. And it will show, given time.

Okay, but easy content vastly outnumbers hard content in this game.

They are not doing everything for hardcore players. Three out of the five paid DLCs they released were mostly solo with very little actually challenging content - Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Almost every dungeon in the game is pug friendly. Surely it can't be so bad if every now and then they release something for a different kind of player.

Not everyone will do all the content.

Edit: About Craglorn, I was here when it was released - both lower and upper Craglorn. It had a lot of people there. It is a wasteland now because they nerfed the xp gains to the ground, which is not reasonable taking into consideration the groups of enemies are harder there than in other maps (although you can solo them if you have a build for tackling groups of enemies) and because it is outdated; it didn't got brought up to the max level (point being, people abandoned the content because it wasn't rewarding, not because it was hard).

"Very little challenging content in them" Oddly enough....no, those DLC's conformed to the philosophy I stated.

Orsinium had Maelstrom, something that remains the pinacle of hardcore single player content in this game. (I think it's poorly designed, but ZOS has shown to be unflinching on it, and I dont care enough to rant about it.)

Thieves guild had Maw of Lorkhaj, a trial recieved extremely well because the players who wanted challenging trials then got it.

With Dark Brotherhood, we got revamps of all the previous trials and the trials people rejoiced. I've heard their much harder now.

...Shadows of the Hist released and only one percent of the playerbase is even grouping for it. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just dosent belong. The content that sold was the content that had something for everyone. Not the stuff focused toward a particular audience.

As for Craglorn, the XP gains, the fact all the quests need four players, the fact you basicly cant do *** with the content now because anybody who wants to do them does them once and promptly forgets about them. Yeah. It was a zone designed around group play and nobody asked for that. Thank *** they didn't release Murkmrie with that. Hopefully they dont release Murkmire like that.

Orsinium had Maelstrom - And a gigantic map full of solo quests and delves, and a bunch of world bosses that need no coordination whatsoever, plus two easily soloable public dungeons. Orsinium had much more easy content than challenging content, the only challenging content of all of it being Maelstrom.

Thieves guild had Maw - And a small map full of solo quests (most Thieves Guild quests having little to no combat), two solo delves and two world bosses that need no coordination whatsoever. Only one trial, and everything else in the DLC being non-challenging content geared towards single players.

The revamps in the Dark Brotherhood were not part of the DLC, they were part of the base game patch. You didn't pay for them. The trials were not made harder to cater to the hardcore crowd, they were brought to the max level so that they would be somehow useful. Because before, they dropped gear below the max level, and people do not do content that isn't rewarding. The DLC itself was all for the non-hardcore crowd, with the world bosses needing no coordination and most of its content being for solo questers.

Shadows of the Hist is the first paid DLC that is entirely geared towards PvE group play, and it was advertised as two long dungeons with challenging mechanics and a challenging hard mode.

As for Craglorn, only two quests in the entire map requires four players, and that is because of artificial barriers, not because of difficulty. Because it is not really hard. And again, it wasn't abandoned for being hard - it was abandoned for not being rewarding. It is outdated, and the experience gains were nerfed to the ground. Before the experience gains were nerfed to the ground, Craglorn had the most popular grind spots in the entire game. Craglorn was the Rkindaleft of 2014, and it was full of people.

Mojmir

Something else to consider, these are dlcs, I'm sure when they we're made they wanted folks to get their moneys worth. If they were pug friendly, it would be done in a cpl hours and it's boring. BTW zos caters too casual style and RP'ers way more than hardcore and pvp. There has to be a balance,one thing they fall short of. Relax..... it will eventually get nerfed.

DRXHarbinger

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a fuckton of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

They can't dilude everything for the lesser-skilled or non-meta players. There NEEDS to be hard as titanium content so hardcore raids can truly be a thing.

But it wouldn't be hard mode without being hard. Everyone cried over Kena and ICP but they were all done long before nerfs came in...so as Anakin once said. ..patience..

ValkynSketha

HM is really easy without the horrible rng with both doors in the catacombs in COS, and hallucination in ROM.

Doctordarkspawn

Mojmir wrote: »

Something else to consider, these are dlcs, I'm sure when they we're made they wanted folks to get their moneys worth. If they were pug friendly, it would be done in a cpl hours and it's boring. BTW zos caters too casual style and RP'ers way more than hardcore and pvp. There has to be a balance,one thing they fall short of. Relax..... it will eventually get nerfed.

It will probably eventually get nerfed, though I love how that attitude is the prevailing one nowadays.

"It'll be nerfed so enjoy it while it lasts"

code65536

Then don't do hard mode.

Unlike vICP/vWGT, you get a gold key for doing it on vet without hard mode, so hard mode is no longer a must-do.

If you followed how these dungeons evolved on the PTS, they actually buffed the difficulty of hard mode and eased the difficulty of the vet non-hard mode. There is now a substantial and meaningful difficulty difference between hard and non-hard modes.

And this is the way it should be. Hard mode didn't really mean much in too many of the earlier dungeons. In 5 of the original 6 vet dungeons (Elden being the sole exception), hard modes didn't even exist--just bonus challenges that, frankly, weren't difficult at all (and in some cases, like the Engine Guardian fight, following the bonus challenge actually makes the fight easier).

Starting with vCoA, ZOS got into the habit of adding hard modes, but that hard mode is hard only if you lack the DPS to kill him in three platforms. If you do have the DPS to kill him in three, "hard" mode is actually easier because his movements after each break then becomes predictable. vICP's hard mode is a joke and barely any harder. vWGT's hard mode, after the shard bug was finally fixed, is probably the hardest of the hard modes, but that difficulty doesn't really kick in until the final burn phase.

Now, we finally have hard modes that matter. And this is a good change. People have been asking repeatedly for three tiers of difficulty: one for most players (normal), one for the good--but not hardcore--players who want a challenge (vet), and one for the hardcore players (vet HM). So much of the new content--Maelstrom and Maw in particular--cater to just the first and third groups while leaving the middle group feeling left out. And now we finally have content that (somewhat) satisfies the need for more difficulty tiers, and your response is to complain about it?

I, for one, welcome and cheer it. Good job, ZOS, and thank you for finally listening to player feedback.

Milvan

And the casuals scrolls strikes again. The same people that ask to make craglorn soloable and to nerf the new group dungeons.

Let's enjoy it before they nerf it.

Carbonised

Scream and have hissy fits as much as you like, fact is that all you so-called 'hardcore' players are a vocal minority, and ZOS shouldn't make content solely for you, no. Find some other MMO to infect.

While most of you never set foot outside vet dungeons and vet trials, the rest of us actually do the content of the game, explore the zones, do the quest, finish the zones. We play the rest of the 98 % of the game content that you shrug off as mere 'solo content'.

And we're also the ones who support this game through eso+ and crown shop purchases, while you just live your lives in trials and dungeons and scream about how everything should cater to your needs.

And to whomever complained about Wrothgar and Hew's Bane being mostly solo zones, perhaps you should crawl out of your vet dungeons and actually see that Wrothgar and Hew' bane continue to be popular and populated long after release, which agian proves that solo content is what drives this game, not your MMO wet dreams.

When new DLCs are only used by 2 % of the player population, that's a waste of ressources and time, and even ZOS has enough sense to realize this, which is why I look forward to seeing the Hist dungeons nerfed eventually. As of now the two new dungeons were a disappointment to many of us, and this thread is a symptom of exactly that.

Milvan

Carbonised wrote: »

Scream and have hissy fits as much as you like, fact is that all you so-called 'hardcore' players are a vocal minority, and ZOS shouldn't make content solely for you, no. Find some other MMO to infect. (...)

You know why hardcore players are less vocal? Because we are too busy playing instead of flooding the forum with nerfs request. You should l2p and gitgud instead of asking Zos to nerf everything.

Carbonised

Milvan wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Scream and have hissy fits as much as you like, fact is that all you so-called 'hardcore' players are a vocal minority, and ZOS shouldn't make content solely for you, no. Find some other MMO to infect. (...)

You know why hardcore players are less vocal? Because we are too busy playing instead of flooding the forum with nerfs request. You should l2p and gitgud instead of asking Zos to nerf everything.

Do you know why you so-called 'hardcore' players are a tumor in this game? You incessantly cry for more challenge, but the truth is you don't really want challenge per se. What would be a challenge for you would to team up with some lesser experienced players, run them through some of the Hist or IC dungeons, teach them how to do it, and put up with the less than stellar performance and sub-par setup. That would be a challenge for you as a player, and it would provide your fellow players with the necessary experience and skills to actually complete the content.

But no, that's not what you do, because you only want challenge if it means distinguishing yourself above the heads of the lower rabble. Those mere plebs who have to 'l2p' and 'gitgud'. That's why you run all the endgame content with your fave 3 bros over and over again, sneering down at anyone who dares to join in, asking for their achievements as proof, and turning them away with a snide smirk telling them they dont' have 'exp'.
That's why you're nothing but toxic and a tumor to this game, you don't care a single squat about challenge, you just don't want content to be done by anyone else, so you can feel so bloody special, and that attitude I really don't give a single sh*t about.

Wifeaggro13

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, I've run both dungeons on vet, a few times now, with pugs, repeatedly, with success, and here is my prognosis.

For the most part these dungeons are fine. Their not -as- long as people make them out to be (Allbiet they are longer than the regular dungeons). The mechanics are interesting, if in some cases a tad buggery (I'm not a fan of resource drain when you guys allready nerfed sustain with the CP conversion.)

But the main issue with these games is the final boss battles, and the hard modes. Put simply, no group I have run, can get through these, and wants to do them. Why? A few reasons.

One. Health and resistances increase. The more time the boss takes to kill, the more frustraited we get. Velindreth suffers from this more than Treeminder does but it's still buggery I could deal without.

Two. Too many mechanics. (Queue too many cooks theme.)
CC adds, resource drain mechanics, and the main dungeon mechanic that actively requires team co-ordination on Mazzatun, and a [Snip] of CC adds, magicka/stamina/healsteal orbs, and a healthbar moving like a *** slug on Velindreth. No group I've run with has done hard mode more than a few times before going "...*** all this ***, lets do regular." It's too much. This is an opinion I and many others share, that the mechanics on hard mode just need toned down a tad, and then this might be fine. But in it's current state, I'll do the dungeons, I wont do hard mode and full gold pledge.

I've run both Mazzatun and Cradle with pugs successfully twice now. Aaaand no one wants to go for full gold pledge because I've not met DPS yet who can keep up with it. I think the designer went overboard for the sake of the one percent hardcore audience and made content for them rather than...oh, I dont know, everyone else who plays this game.

The core issue is the whole game design is centered on DPS checks. There is no CC or cordination. Did veldrith last night on vet for my first timeas a tank. its all about bursting DPS when he is stunned. Truthfully its another fight that a high hit point DPS with a taunt can do. ZOS was very short sighted in their design. Making tanking an after though after whidling core groups down to 4 people and making CC and buffing a by product of DPS abilities that dont matter only makes matters worse.