Problems with the Shadows Of The Hist dungeons

idk

The rage. The anger. The frustration.

Unless your trying the dungeon on HM the mechanics aren't to hard. Ok, if someone doesn't bother to figure out the mechanics or tries to use brute force to get through the fights, yea, it may be to hard for them.

If this dungeon was more about pure dps race (boring) the my guess is we would see qq about Zos requirng everyone be skilled at dps. Instead Zos make us work to tend and work the mechanics.

Shadesofkin

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Now, we finally have hard modes that matter. And this is a good change. People have been asking repeatedly for three tiers of difficulty: one for most players (normal), one for the good--but not hardcore--players who want a challenge (vet), and one for the hardcore players (vet HM). So much of the new content--Maelstrom and Maw in particular--cater to just the first and third groups while leaving the middle group feeling left out. And now we finally have content that (somewhat) satisfies the need for more difficulty tiers, and your response is to complain about it?

The problem is, there is no actual third difficulty tier. There is no middle ground. The Normal mode is too damn easy and the Vet versions are too damn hard for most casual players, especially after they have nerfed Regen into the ground once again.

If they are going to keep things at this difficulty, then they are going to have to actually either nerf the Vet versions to be more in line with what they used to be, but properly scaled up, or they are going to have to create an actual Third Tier, especially for Trials.

Prior to this DLC I used to run Vet Trials with my guilds. We were able to accomplish them even with players not wearing specific armour to meet Meta requirements. It was challenging and it was fun and we could usually get two runs in, in a three hour timeline.

NOW, with the way they have scaled Vet Trials, no one is my guilds have been able to get anywhere near the end of them. We have even had one of the people in that video who actually did make it through with his Elite Guild come into ours and he basically told everyone, if you want to finish it, then you have to wear such and such gear to meet Meta and have to have such and such DPS otherwise there is no point.
That confirmed to me right there that only the top Elite Guilds are ever going to be able to complete the Vet Trails as they stand right now.

And before you jump down my throat for essentially calling for a nerf, I don't mind challenging content. I don't mind having to follow mechanics and take my time and having to think about things. What I do mind is what equates to banging my head against the wall repeatedly trying to do something that was designed in such a way as to actually hinder my ability to do it unless I fit into this specific cookie cutter build.
That crap isn't fun and I don't stay with things very long that are not fun.

Add onto that the fact that most players don't have 3+ hours at a time to dedicate to trying to take down the Vet versions of the new dungeons or the Vet trials.

For the new Vet Dungeons, and I have had lengthy conversations with others whom have completed them on Vet, (and yes, I have tanked both on Vet and completed them), they need a reasonable 10% reduction in damage output and health.

For the Vet Trials, the bosses themselves should be scaled back a little (10-15%). However, the real issue I see most people having is with the adds being scaled to rediculous proportions of over 1+million HP each, and new harder adds being added, such as the Overchargers in AA.
Scale the adds back down to what they are on Normal, but leave the actual Bosses to what they are and it gives players who don't have over 3+ hours and "Meta" gear a fighting chance to actually complete Vet dungeons while still having to pay attention to mechanics.

Have I purchased the Shadow of the Hist DLC? Nope, and I won't either. The only reason I have access to it right now is because my sub hasn't run out yet.

I would honestly love to see the Devs actually play these dungeons and trials on Vet modes without any of their cheat codes/God modes to see how they react and if they can do it because I am pretty well convinced they don't really play their own game unless they are using god mode or are on normal (easy) mode.

I feel bad for you, I really do. It sounds as if you're frustrated. I hope that you find a way to complete the Trials.

That being said, I've tanked them too, I've dps'd them as well. None of what you're calling for is accurate.

A decent, well organized and well equiped guild group can complete any Vet Trial (Except Maw) in an hour and a half. That is *with* deaths and probably at least one wipe on places where the team splits up.

Your guild did not do "Veteran Trials" before the update. You did "Regular Trials" that also happened to have a Difficult Mode attached to them (Breaking the Statues, Burning the Banners, Smashing the Orbs). You can still do Regular Trials. Good Guilds can complete Veteran Trials and Great Guilds can complete Veteran Trials on Difficult Mode. I'm sorry to say this, but I will bet money you weren't beating the Trials before you were VR16 (now CP160). I'm willing to lose that bet if it's not the case, but likely you were running builds you "liked" against VR12 and VR14 mobs at VR16 and you were beating them by the sheer difference in power level. Now that that's gone you realize you were only on a small foothill standing next to Mount Olympus.

The same goes for Dungeons. We were spanking City of Ash on Veteran Difficult Mode when there was no Champion System and when 14 was as high as it could go. Sure it took us a few tries, but it was totally possible, now we've got new content that takes some tries but it is highly doable and we even have the added benefit of adjusting CP so that we maximize what will give us the greatest benefits.

If the Dungeons Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it. If the Trials Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it.

Otherwise, just practice and work at it. You can do a lot without resorting to "cookie cutter". You can learn from the people who've done extensive testing and theorycrafting and you can figure out what they say that works for you and what you are willing to turn your nose up and you can accept the consequences of those actions without claiming that it's "not fun".

All of this is easy to do, sure it's easier for me because I can beat the Veteran Trials and the Difficult Mode levels of Dungeons, but that's because I've worked at it and worked at it and worked at it. I beat my head against AA and Hel Ra so many times back when 12 was the highest Veteran Rank, eventually I beat them, right before 14 was introduced. However, even if it weren't easy for me to complete those things I'd be cool with it. I am a terrible awful freaking abysmal PvP player and I've accepted that I will never get the Emp costume, never earn Proxy Det or Caltrops on all my alts, and never get some of those rather cool rewards I see people score from lockboxes. I'm cool with that because I can rock PvE pretty hard. Find your niche and be cool with it.

So with that all being said.

Stop asking for reductions in difficulty after only a few weeks of a dungeon or trial being live, please.

I hate to break it to you, but the guilds I ran with indeed did Vet Trials and finished them on hard mode prior to this update. Would you like a screen shot of the gold jewelry I received from making leaderboard just to prove it?

You think my requests are unreasonable, just wait until the console users start flooding the forums with their complaints, then you will see unreasonable. I at least am being reasonable in stating it requires a small adjustment to allow many other players to enjoy the content they paid for and not feel like they are just beating their heads against a brick wall.

You missed the entire point homie, I didn't say you didn't earn leaderboard scores, prior to this update that was something anyone with half a brain could do. I said you didn't complete Veteran Trials. They didn't exist. You did "Regular Trials" that also happened to have a Difficulty Increase to them. They were also locked at CP120 and 140, unless you're talking Maw. In which case, ok, there is a Veteran Mode of that and that happens to be 160. Your power levels were farther above the Trial instance difficulty prior to this update, now in the Veteran version of the Trial, your power level is insufficient because you refuse to consider tactics that would help you achieve your goal. You may beat them eventually, but it will take time and patience.

The Trial you're used to doing is still there, it's Normal Mode. That is the equivalent to what you're used to running. You'll be able to complete that over and over to your hearts content and you'll get all the same gear you could get in Veteran, it'll just always be Purple and the drop rates will be lower. You won't make the leaderboard anymore, but that's hardly the end of the world. If you want Alkosh, Lunar, and the rest just run some Normal Maws til you get the drop rate you want.

The request is definitely unreasonable, it doesn't matter if a million console players come in and ask for it too, it will remain an unreasonable request. The only way that will change is if Zenimax releases data that shows less than 10% of the games population can complete it, and even then I won't agree because players requested this exact scenario, they wanted a third difficulty tier, I can find you dozens of posts about it, and they got one. Normal for people who aren't hardcore, Veteran for the good players, Veteran Difficult for the best. All of the rewards drop on Normal...not like they're missing anything by doing the content suited to them.

LadyNalcarya

Contraptions wrote: »

Why do the hard modes have to be like the trials where you have to have high survivavbility, high DPS, high sustain, high everything? This isn't a trial; I don't want to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall for some daily quest.

Its much easier than vet trials though...
And speaking of people with Dro-m'Athra skins/Maelstrom weapons... I saw a message in trade guild the other day, offering that skin for 1,8 million gold or something like that.

And for people complaining about mythical "Golden Age" with sofcaps (of course, all balance issues of early versions of the game magically vanished from their memory)... Do you really think that with homogenized stats mechanics would become easier? How so?
Yeah, I understand that oneshotting mechanics can be annoying in pugs, but I didnt notice anything that could make the walkthrough significantly easier for people with more dps. You cant skip boss phases by burning them. And it doesnt matter if you do 15k or 40, youll still need to perform the mechanics...

IwakuraLain42

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

For those not up to the challenge there is normal mode and it can be fun to run with a group.

You obviously can't (or won't) understand the issues here (which are, truth to be told, more a problem with the trials then the dungeons): for any halfway competent player the normal trials are boring as hell, most mechanics can simply be either ignored or are extremely simple. They are basically just a big farming run for loot. It's the step-up to to the veteran trials thats the problem here. I don't mind a challenge, but having every veteran trial scaled to such gigantic damage & health numbers is really off-putting at best. Like I said, in my opinion there needs to be a even distribution of difficulty from the easiest trials (normal) to the hardest (vMoL) (keep the HM at their current difficulty for the best players).

Saturn

One of the problems here is that you are doing it with pugs. The hardmodes are actually hard and require coordination, and thank [Snip] for that, because if it was yet another faceroll hardmode like Lord Warden Dusk (which simply adds meteors until first split phase) then I'd be really annoyed. Besides they already nerfed the hell out of the last two bosses in Cradle of Shadows (though it was a good thing, as they were stupid hard on the PTS without doing hardmodes).

Whenever the Gold pledge is Mazzatun or Cradle, simply beating these on veteran gives you a gold key, to reflect how difficult the hardmodes are. This is for groups who cannot beat the hardmodes, but still want to feel rewarded. Also, give the dungeons time. They have only been out for a little over two weeks and you are already screaming nerf, before most players have gotten really familiar with the places. The veteran dungeons that everybody facerolls right now used to be hard in the past too, their hardmodes also used to be difficult.

I have personally beaten both veteran dungeons' challenger achievements, and you know what? I'm [Snip] glad it was difficult, because when I beat them I felt good. It's the same kind of feeling I got from beating vDSA, vMSA and vMoL the first time.

The dungeons are not impossible for players who want to pug them, but please leave the hardmodes for those who want more of a challenge.

[Edit to remove censor bypass]

Shadesofkin

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

For those not up to the challenge there is normal mode and it can be fun to run with a group.

You obviously can't (or won't) understand the issues here (which are, truth to be told, more a problem with the trials then the dungeons): for any halfway competent player the normal trials are boring as hell, most mechanics can simply be either ignored or are extremely simple. .

Then, without meaning to sound rude, they're not halfway competent players. Halfway competent players can complete Veteran Hel Ra, Veteran AA, and Veteran Sanctum. They're maybe a quarter way competent if the Normal Trials aren't giving them any challenge, in which case the only argument to make is to say "step up your game" because you're clearly on the right track, but you're refusing to acknowledge your personal flaws and adapt or accept.

This isn't meant to be rude, I'm not screaming "git gud", it's a "You're clearly on the right track, but you're ignoring a huge aspect of what will take you all the way".

The point you keep trying to make feels as if it's an overestimation of other players. I'm not saying I don't sometimes underestimate people not in my guilds, but I've come to expect that if a person says that Normal is too easy and Veteran is too hard, they're at that point where they've got the knowledge but they're lacking the wisdom to use it properly.

Nebthet78

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

For those not up to the challenge there is normal mode and it can be fun to run with a group.

You obviously can't (or won't) understand the issues here (which are, truth to be told, more a problem with the trials then the dungeons): for any halfway competent player the normal trials are boring as hell, most mechanics can simply be either ignored or are extremely simple. They are basically just a big farming run for loot. It's the step-up to to the veteran trials thats the problem here. I don't mind a challenge, but having every veteran trial scaled to such gigantic damage & health numbers is really off-putting at best. Like I said, in my opinion there needs to be a even distribution of difficulty from the easiest trials (normal) to the hardest (vMoL) (keep the HM at their current difficulty for the best players).

This is exactly it.. those who are sayng L2P, GitGud and the difficulty is fine don't understand the real issue happening here, or do not care to acknowledge it. They refuse to see outside their own enjoyment and to what is very possibly best for 90% of the player base for this game, which are casuals.

They seem to think there is an actual difference between the Vet versions of these Dungeons and Hard mode. Well, there is, but not through the whole dungeon, ONLY on the last boss. So telling people to just do the Vet versions and not the hard modes does absolutely nothing for those players having an extremely difficult time with them especially if they can't get passed the second or third boss.

Telling them again to just do Normal mode doesn't help either, because normal mode is super easy and boring as hell.

Yes, there are some points that are a learn to play issue, like the DPS on Xal-Nur (aka Old Spice) have to be the ones to pick up said spice and run it... while one dps runs it, the other kills the wamasu handler and then runs to the other dps to take the spice and finish the run. The healer should be staying near the dps and the tank in the fight should be having enough health and resistances to keep the boss occupied as much as they can and pull the damn troll until the run is done, the dps can take out the troll and then concentrate on the boss again. DPS players have to learn they can no longer just burn a boss down, not even on normal.

Plus, the only difference between Vet mode and Vet Hard Mode on RoM is the addition of Stoneshapers and Masons. That's it. Every other mechanic and boss difficulty itsself is the same. So again, not doing hard mode is not really going to be helping those players who are having issues taking down the boss due to the execute phase dropping a totem, the vines and someone hallucinating at the same time, typically resulting in at least one of them dying.

What ZOS needs to do is change things so that Hard Mode begins right at the beginning of Dungeons or Trials, and the boss damage and health are significantly increased for them. THEN you have your actual third tier of difficulty. But right now, there are technically only 2 tiers of difficulty, not 3.

I stand by stating that the Vet versions of the dungeons need a 10% reduction in damage and health. This is not a large amount but enough that it allows the good casual players who are otherwise feeling like they are beating their head against the wall to be able to complete the Vet versions of these dungeons, while also allowing good PUGS the ability to run it, instead of steam rolling through normal all the time. It will also allow these players to actually work at improving their game because they then know, they actually have a fighting chance at completing the dungeon in about an hour or so, instead of getting no where after several hours.

Trials on the other hand actually need a THIRD seperate difficulty tier. A Vet version with 30-40% difficulty reduction throughout the whole dungeon compared to what it is now, and then a Vet Hard Mode which would be where it is at now plus the current Mage HM at the end automatically.
There would need to be leaderboards for both Vet and Harm Modes with hard mode being given an extra gold item if they meet leaderboards. This will allow an actual achievable stepping stone for guilds and players who find the Normal trials too easy compared to the current vet versions, but want the challenge of running (and ability to complete) a Vet version and to learn the mechanics, but not feel like you are beating your head against the wall for over 3+ hours because they can't get passed the second boss because everyone in the group isn't pulling 30k dps and wearing the new Meta required gear.

I am going to find it interesting to see how the console community actually responds to the new dungeons and the difficulty changes of the vet versions. They don't have the ability to use macros or have a Razer mouse and keyboard where you have a bunch of handy buttons you can press very quickly at the side. They don't have the add ons that tell you when the boss is in execute, or when your ultimate is up or when to exploit a situation. They are bound by the responsiveness of their system and controllers and I think a good amount of them are going to have issues with these dungeons. And we know just how vocal the console community is.

Shadesofkin

I tried to be nice about all this, but after seeing more than one mention of macros, and one mention of a Razor Mouse and Keyboard somehow giving magical advantages to PC players I am no longer feeling very nice about it.

So here goes.

Players who cannot beat the content are not as good as players who can, they should learn to live with their inferior playstyle and be content with it. If they cannot they should strive to be better. No one lowers the basketball hoop during tryouts, they set it to regulation level. If you can't do it, you're kicked. They don't like it? They're told to not be a part of it.

If you can't do the content, you're not as good as the guys who can. You don't deserve the same rewards, you deserve rewards equivalent to your skill (this is the royal you, not a directed). You are not equal in skill, you're lesser you're inferior. No one needs to cater to you, you need to pull yourself up or accept your lot.

There are already a dozen youtube videos about the new dungeons, there are already discussions about strategies to be found. If you cannot do it, it's no longer a matter of the content, it's a matter of you are inferior. A player who feels that their inferior status (and make no mistake as a player they are, I do not mean as a person) is unacceptable should be directly asking for help, directly saying "will someone group with me and teach me the mechanics of how to do this fight, please?" and eventually they will meet someone who can and will help them.

Good luck to everyone who either accepts their lot or improves themselves.

ragingruby1991

EASY: normal mode
MEDIUM: veteran mode
HARD: veteran mode with hardmode final boss enabled

Just because you can't PUG the hardmode doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Just do the vet version without activating hardmode. You still get the same gear and a gold key (just not 2). Work your way up to hard more with a trusted group or guild. Everything in this game shouldn't be a cakewalk. There wouldn't be any sense of accomplishment in that.

Doctordarkspawn

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Now, we finally have hard modes that matter. And this is a good change. People have been asking repeatedly for three tiers of difficulty: one for most players (normal), one for the good--but not hardcore--players who want a challenge (vet), and one for the hardcore players (vet HM). So much of the new content--Maelstrom and Maw in particular--cater to just the first and third groups while leaving the middle group feeling left out. And now we finally have content that (somewhat) satisfies the need for more difficulty tiers, and your response is to complain about it?

The problem is, there is no actual third difficulty tier. There is no middle ground. The Normal mode is too damn easy and the Vet versions are too damn hard for most casual players, especially after they have nerfed Regen into the ground once again.

If they are going to keep things at this difficulty, then they are going to have to actually either nerf the Vet versions to be more in line with what they used to be, but properly scaled up, or they are going to have to create an actual Third Tier, especially for Trials.

Prior to this DLC I used to run Vet Trials with my guilds. We were able to accomplish them even with players not wearing specific armour to meet Meta requirements. It was challenging and it was fun and we could usually get two runs in, in a three hour timeline.

NOW, with the way they have scaled Vet Trials, no one is my guilds have been able to get anywhere near the end of them. We have even had one of the people in that video who actually did make it through with his Elite Guild come into ours and he basically told everyone, if you want to finish it, then you have to wear such and such gear to meet Meta and have to have such and such DPS otherwise there is no point.
That confirmed to me right there that only the top Elite Guilds are ever going to be able to complete the Vet Trails as they stand right now.

And before you jump down my throat for essentially calling for a nerf, I don't mind challenging content. I don't mind having to follow mechanics and take my time and having to think about things. What I do mind is what equates to banging my head against the wall repeatedly trying to do something that was designed in such a way as to actually hinder my ability to do it unless I fit into this specific cookie cutter build.
That crap isn't fun and I don't stay with things very long that are not fun.

Add onto that the fact that most players don't have 3+ hours at a time to dedicate to trying to take down the Vet versions of the new dungeons or the Vet trials.

For the new Vet Dungeons, and I have had lengthy conversations with others whom have completed them on Vet, (and yes, I have tanked both on Vet and completed them), they need a reasonable 10% reduction in damage output and health.

For the Vet Trials, the bosses themselves should be scaled back a little (10-15%). However, the real issue I see most people having is with the adds being scaled to rediculous proportions of over 1+million HP each, and new harder adds being added, such as the Overchargers in AA.
Scale the adds back down to what they are on Normal, but leave the actual Bosses to what they are and it gives players who don't have over 3+ hours and "Meta" gear a fighting chance to actually complete Vet dungeons while still having to pay attention to mechanics.

Have I purchased the Shadow of the Hist DLC? Nope, and I won't either. The only reason I have access to it right now is because my sub hasn't run out yet.

I would honestly love to see the Devs actually play these dungeons and trials on Vet modes without any of their cheat codes/God modes to see how they react and if they can do it because I am pretty well convinced they don't really play their own game unless they are using god mode or are on normal (easy) mode.

I feel bad for you, I really do. It sounds as if you're frustrated. I hope that you find a way to complete the Trials.

That being said, I've tanked them too, I've dps'd them as well. None of what you're calling for is accurate.

A decent, well organized and well equiped guild group can complete any Vet Trial (Except Maw) in an hour and a half. That is *with* deaths and probably at least one wipe on places where the team splits up.

Your guild did not do "Veteran Trials" before the update. You did "Regular Trials" that also happened to have a Difficult Mode attached to them (Breaking the Statues, Burning the Banners, Smashing the Orbs). You can still do Regular Trials. Good Guilds can complete Veteran Trials and Great Guilds can complete Veteran Trials on Difficult Mode. I'm sorry to say this, but I will bet money you weren't beating the Trials before you were VR16 (now CP160). I'm willing to lose that bet if it's not the case, but likely you were running builds you "liked" against VR12 and VR14 mobs at VR16 and you were beating them by the sheer difference in power level. Now that that's gone you realize you were only on a small foothill standing next to Mount Olympus.

The same goes for Dungeons. We were spanking City of Ash on Veteran Difficult Mode when there was no Champion System and when 14 was as high as it could go. Sure it took us a few tries, but it was totally possible, now we've got new content that takes some tries but it is highly doable and we even have the added benefit of adjusting CP so that we maximize what will give us the greatest benefits.

If the Dungeons Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it. If the Trials Difficult Mode is too hard, don't do it.

Otherwise, just practice and work at it. You can do a lot without resorting to "cookie cutter". You can learn from the people who've done extensive testing and theorycrafting and you can figure out what they say that works for you and what you are willing to turn your nose up and you can accept the consequences of those actions without claiming that it's "not fun".

All of this is easy to do, sure it's easier for me because I can beat the Veteran Trials and the Difficult Mode levels of Dungeons, but that's because I've worked at it and worked at it and worked at it. I beat my head against AA and Hel Ra so many times back when 12 was the highest Veteran Rank, eventually I beat them, right before 14 was introduced. However, even if it weren't easy for me to complete those things I'd be cool with it. I am a terrible awful freaking abysmal PvP player and I've accepted that I will never get the Emp costume, never earn Proxy Det or Caltrops on all my alts, and never get some of those rather cool rewards I see people score from lockboxes. I'm cool with that because I can rock PvE pretty hard. Find your niche and be cool with it.

So with that all being said.

Stop asking for reductions in difficulty after only a few weeks of a dungeon or trial being live, please.

I hate to break it to you, but the guilds I ran with indeed did Vet Trials and finished them on hard mode prior to this update. Would you like a screen shot of the gold jewelry I received from making leaderboard just to prove it?

You think my requests are unreasonable, just wait until the console users start flooding the forums with their complaints, then you will see unreasonable. I at least am being reasonable in stating it requires a small adjustment to allow many other players to enjoy the content they paid for and not feel like they are just beating their heads against a brick wall.

You missed the entire point homie, I didn't say you didn't earn leaderboard scores, prior to this update that was something anyone with half a brain could do. I said you didn't complete Veteran Trials. They didn't exist. You did "Regular Trials" that also happened to have a Difficulty Increase to them. They were also locked at CP120 and 140, unless you're talking Maw. In which case, ok, there is a Veteran Mode of that and that happens to be 160. Your power levels were farther above the Trial instance difficulty prior to this update, now in the Veteran version of the Trial, your power level is insufficient because you refuse to consider tactics that would help you achieve your goal. You may beat them eventually, but it will take time and patience.

The Trial you're used to doing is still there, it's Normal Mode. That is the equivalent to what you're used to running. You'll be able to complete that over and over to your hearts content and you'll get all the same gear you could get in Veteran, it'll just always be Purple and the drop rates will be lower. You won't make the leaderboard anymore, but that's hardly the end of the world. If you want Alkosh, Lunar, and the rest just run some Normal Maws til you get the drop rate you want.

The request is definitely unreasonable, it doesn't matter if a million console players come in and ask for it too, it will remain an unreasonable request. The only way that will change is if Zenimax releases data that shows less than 10% of the games population can complete it, and even then I won't agree because players requested this exact scenario, they wanted a third difficulty tier, I can find you dozens of posts about it, and they got one. Normal for people who aren't hardcore, Veteran for the good players, Veteran Difficult for the best. All of the rewards drop on Normal...not like they're missing anything by doing the content suited to them.

No we didn't get a third difficulty tier. We got a hard mode for one boss instead of a elite difficulty that would have turned the regular dungeons back to the difficulty they were back when the game was new. (Something I do want to see.)

No the request that Zeni tone down content from something flashy that maybe 10% of the people can do, is not an unreasonable one.

No telling us to settle for less because you want to remain in vogue jumping on the difficulty gravey train isn't reasonable, if that's all you want to do find a new thread.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Why do the hard modes have to be like the trials where you have to have high survivavbility, high DPS, high sustain, high everything? This isn't a trial; I don't want to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall for some daily quest.

Its much easier than vet trials though...
And speaking of people with Dro-m'Athra skins/Maelstrom weapons... I saw a message in trade guild the other day, offering that skin for 1,8 million gold or something like that.

And for people complaining about mythical "Golden Age" with sofcaps (of course, all balance issues of early versions of the game magically vanished from their memory)... Do you really think that with homogenized stats mechanics would become easier? How so?
Yeah, I understand that oneshotting mechanics can be annoying in pugs, but I didnt notice anything that could make the walkthrough significantly easier for people with more dps. You cant skip boss phases by burning them. And it doesnt matter if you do 15k or 40, youll still need to perform the mechanics...

The reason I want soft caps to come back is back with that system, there was a maximum DPS potential and the design revolved around that DPS potential. Once you had a set burn rate for the boss and content, you could design mechanics around that. And the mechanics they designed around those softcaps are typically better than the stuff designed now. Not because it was pre softcaps. But because the designers didn't need to worry about things geting shredded because they knew how much damage you could do.

People wonder why the vanilla dungeons are so easy and softcaps would be why.

FluffyMeowington

First and only response to the thread before it getting locked should have been "git gud".
My god, man. Not everything in the game needs to be super PUG-friendly on day 1.

Shadesofkin

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/285410/1st-vet-craddle-of-shadows-clear-on-ps4#latest

Well, now we know, no one needs Razor Gear, Macros, or Add-ons to beat the new Vet Dungeons.

Nebthet78

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I tried to be nice about all this, but after seeing more than one mention of macros, and one mention of a Razor Mouse and Keyboard somehow giving magical advantages to PC players I am no longer feeling very nice about it.

So here goes.

Players who cannot beat the content are not as good as players who can, they should learn to live with their inferior playstyle and be content with it. If they cannot they should strive to be better. No one lowers the basketball hoop during tryouts, they set it to regulation level. If you can't do it, you're kicked. They don't like it? They're told to not be a part of it.

If you can't do the content, you're not as good as the guys who can. You don't deserve the same rewards, you deserve rewards equivalent to your skill (this is the royal you, not a directed). You are not equal in skill, you're lesser you're inferior. No one needs to cater to you, you need to pull yourself up or accept your lot.

There are already a dozen youtube videos about the new dungeons, there are already discussions about strategies to be found. If you cannot do it, it's no longer a matter of the content, it's a matter of you are inferior. A player who feels that their inferior status (and make no mistake as a player they are, I do not mean as a person) is unacceptable should be directly asking for help, directly saying "will someone group with me and teach me the mechanics of how to do this fight, please?" and eventually they will meet someone who can and will help them.

Good luck to everyone who either accepts their lot or improves themselves.

Take your not nice attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine and go troll somewhere else.

When we start seeing threads like these:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/285411/the-stormproof-requirement-for-trial-guilds-is-stupid/p2
popping up where top guilds are requiring certain requirements from people to even run with them, and not so top trials guilds as well, then you have to wonder.

Yes.. people need to work for things, but there is a middle ground where 99% of the gamer population would be happy, and frankly, you being against that middle ground makes you completely unreasonable.

So many players are sick and tired of fighting their way up to meet current metrics and changing armor so many times to have ZOS come in and nerf them right back down to pre V14 levels. Most players don't have the in game gold, nor the time to make enough in the game to get the top tier armor to play like they used to. Most players can't afford to have 2 or more backup armor sets.

A recent poll showed a large part of the player base does NOT want a raise in gear levels.

This game isn't just for elitist 1% who can only do the most difficult content. It's for EVERYONE!!!
And if there is a good number of people not doing the new Vet dungeons because they find them too hard, and also are not doing the normal versions because they find them too easy, then indeed there is an issue that needs to be addressed.

The same goes with Trials. Maybe we filthy casuals will be able to finally do them in a few years when we reach CP3600 (if we haven't been nerfed back down to cp160 levels by then) because the bar's been raised so high it can't be reached by but the select few hardcore elitist players.

PS.. the guy on PS4 who actually completed it on Vet is not a casual player. He is a hardcore player and been around since PC release, huge difference there.

I mean really, why are you against a THIRD Tier of difficulty?? What are you afraid of? How is having that third tier for people in the middle who can't meet your elitist levels going to affect you?

Oh wait... it might affect your guild trader bottom line a little if you give them a chance at getting a single gold item on a middle tier leaderboard, or purple jewelry on a middle tier Vet Dungeon. I see no other reason than your own selfishness and pride wanting to be the best of the best and looking down on other players. It's not like you are going to be running with us Casuals anyways since I'm sure you only run with your select guilds.

Doctordarkspawn

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I tried to be nice about all this, but after seeing more than one mention of macros, and one mention of a Razor Mouse and Keyboard somehow giving magical advantages to PC players I am no longer feeling very nice about it.

So here goes.

Players who cannot beat the content are not as good as players who can, they should learn to live with their inferior playstyle and be content with it. If they cannot they should strive to be better. No one lowers the basketball hoop during tryouts, they set it to regulation level. If you can't do it, you're kicked. They don't like it? They're told to not be a part of it.

If you can't do the content, you're not as good as the guys who can. You don't deserve the same rewards, you deserve rewards equivalent to your skill (this is the royal you, not a directed). You are not equal in skill, you're lesser you're inferior. No one needs to cater to you, you need to pull yourself up or accept your lot.

There are already a dozen youtube videos about the new dungeons, there are already discussions about strategies to be found. If you cannot do it, it's no longer a matter of the content, it's a matter of you are inferior. A player who feels that their inferior status (and make no mistake as a player they are, I do not mean as a person) is unacceptable should be directly asking for help, directly saying "will someone group with me and teach me the mechanics of how to do this fight, please?" and eventually they will meet someone who can and will help them.

Good luck to everyone who either accepts their lot or improves themselves.

When someone sets the basketball hoop up to where only giants could reach it people get outraged.

when someone sets the bar too high nobody passes it.

Doctordarkspawn

Shadesofkin wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/285410/1st-vet-craddle-of-shadows-clear-on-ps4#latest

Well, now we know, no one needs Razor Gear, Macros, or Add-ons to beat the new Vet Dungeons.

"Next up is hard mode"

MalakithAlamahdi

Took me 21h to complete the new vDSA the first run, it felt awesome. After that it was 5 hours. The same is for the 2 new dungeons, first try was tough, now i can cakerole it with chars that do only 25k dps at most. You can dodge the statue thing, the only thing that made it hard is the totem and the end phase. Let's not talk about CoS, it's so easy it made me *** myself.

Neither of the two are so hard only elite or super high dps people can do it, i do everything with my substain pvp builds even. The only things that are truely hard is vMoL, vDSA and vMSA. The latter i couldnt beat the last boss on 3 different toons, but i know people who beat it all in 3 hours. It's not all that hard, i'm glad there is something chalanging now, all the other vet dungeons i can tank on a level 35 toon. With some i can even solo half the bosses on my healer, and i'm really not that good of a pve player. Give it a few more tries and you'll beat it.

One sidenote though, i do dislike the way they start to make things hard. 500k mobs that do 6k hits isn't fun, it would be more fun for me if they made it harder because of the need for good tactics, instead of making things more tanky and hit harder. but the only thing really suffering from that right now is vMSA, the normal mode is way to easy, and the hard mode is a bit to hard in terms of the npc's damage and health.

Doctordarkspawn

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Took me 21h to complete the new vDSA the first run, it felt awesome. After that it was 5 hours. The same is for the 2 new dungeons, first try was tough, now i can cakerole it with chars that do only 25k dps at most. You can dodge the statue thing, the only thing that made it hard is the totem and the end phase. Let's not talk about CoS, it's so easy it made me *** myself.

Neither of the two are so hard only elite or super high dps people can do it, i do everything with my substain pvp builds even. The only things that are truely hard is vMoL, vDSA and vMSA. The latter i couldnt beat the last boss on 3 different toons, but i know people who beat it all in 3 hours. It's not all that hard, i'm glad there is something chalanging now, all the other vet dungeons i can tank on a level 35 toon. With some i can even solo half the bosses on my healer, and i'm really not that good of a pve player. Give it a few more tries and you'll beat it.

One sidenote though, i do dislike the way they start to make things hard. 500k mobs that do 6k hits isn't fun, it would be more fun for me if they made it harder because of the need for good tactics, instead of making things more tanky and hit harder. but the only thing really suffering from that right now is vMSA, the normal mode is way to easy, and the hard mode is a bit to hard in terms of the npc's damage and health.

You actually bring up something worth mentioning here. "PVP Sustain build"

Considering the drain mechanics these are pretty much the -only- ways to play these dungeons. Burst dont work no more on Mazzatun where you are guarenteed to lose resources.

Just something to point out. I agree with almost everything else you say here.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Why do the hard modes have to be like the trials where you have to have high survivavbility, high DPS, high sustain, high everything? This isn't a trial; I don't want to feel like I'm beating my head against a wall for some daily quest.

Its much easier than vet trials though...
And speaking of people with Dro-m'Athra skins/Maelstrom weapons... I saw a message in trade guild the other day, offering that skin for 1,8 million gold or something like that.

And for people complaining about mythical "Golden Age" with sofcaps (of course, all balance issues of early versions of the game magically vanished from their memory)... Do you really think that with homogenized stats mechanics would become easier? How so?
Yeah, I understand that oneshotting mechanics can be annoying in pugs, but I didnt notice anything that could make the walkthrough significantly easier for people with more dps. You cant skip boss phases by burning them. And it doesnt matter if you do 15k or 40, youll still need to perform the mechanics...

The reason I want soft caps to come back is back with that system, there was a maximum DPS potential and the design revolved around that DPS potential. Once you had a set burn rate for the boss and content, you could design mechanics around that. And the mechanics they designed around those softcaps are typically better than the stuff designed now. Not because it was pre softcaps. But because the designers didn't need to worry about things geting shredded because they knew how much damage you could do.

People wonder why the vanilla dungeons are so easy and softcaps would be why.

But at the same time many of the bosses in old dungeons dont have specific mechanics and dont require much coordination. Thats why they became absurdly easy with the power creep (WGT and ICP on the other hand, still require you to perform mechanics, thats why they can still pose a challenge for average groups, even though dps requirements are super low after the nerfs).
They're basically just damage sponges, those old bosses - and yes, this is because the difficulty was designed around max damage outputs. The dungeons and trial that were released after sofcaps removal have more intricate mechanics. And support roles became more complicated, with casting all the buffs and debuffs etc... As a healer and tank, I like it.
Dont know about you, but I prefer MoL style difficulty over damage sponges any day.

Tl;dr: why softcap era dungeons are too easy now? Because the only difficulty revolved around handicapping players. Why super nerfed ICP is still hard for an average player? Because it revolves around mechanics and group coordination.

MalakithAlamahdi

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Took me 21h to complete the new vDSA the first run, it felt awesome. After that it was 5 hours. The same is for the 2 new dungeons, first try was tough, now i can cakerole it with chars that do only 25k dps at most. You can dodge the statue thing, the only thing that made it hard is the totem and the end phase. Let's not talk about CoS, it's so easy it made me *** myself.

Neither of the two are so hard only elite or super high dps people can do it, i do everything with my substain pvp builds even. The only things that are truely hard is vMoL, vDSA and vMSA. The latter i couldnt beat the last boss on 3 different toons, but i know people who beat it all in 3 hours. It's not all that hard, i'm glad there is something chalanging now, all the other vet dungeons i can tank on a level 35 toon. With some i can even solo half the bosses on my healer, and i'm really not that good of a pve player. Give it a few more tries and you'll beat it.

One sidenote though, i do dislike the way they start to make things hard. 500k mobs that do 6k hits isn't fun, it would be more fun for me if they made it harder because of the need for good tactics, instead of making things more tanky and hit harder. but the only thing really suffering from that right now is vMSA, the normal mode is way to easy, and the hard mode is a bit to hard in terms of the npc's damage and health.

You actually bring up something worth mentioning here. "PVP Sustain build"

Considering the drain mechanics these are pretty much the -only- ways to play these dungeons. Burst dont work no more on Mazzatun where you are guarenteed to lose resources.

Just something to point out. I agree with almost everything else you say here.

Well, i'm the only one of the group running that and ones it starts hitting me i'm also out of resourses in about 5 seconds. I think it just drains it a bit to fast or it's health is to high. This is the main problem with Mazzatum, for me at least. The dungeon itself isn't that hard, but anything gets hard when you can't cast any skills anymore, they could tone it down a little but. Even with 2.5k magicka regen it drains in a few seconds.

(What i did to beat that boss is having one DD offheal for when the healer gets hit and needs to do the statues. Burst down the totem the moment you see it, ultimates can help against it too (sorc overload is great for it if you got a sorc on your team), or radiant destruction when it's low on hp. For NB's simphon strike can work. Kill the adds and get her to the stage where she turns into another boss ghost. Light and heavy attack this one to gain your ultimate and recourses again. Then it's repeat. untill the final stage where it's just stacking on her, spam healing springs and execute her asap. The while statue thing can be dodged as she trows it (an orange blob thing, she will trow it in 3 seconds). The stone trower mobs also suck, kill them fast and try to block their attacks so you wont got knocked down. TS really helps for this. And i believe that the statue actually takes more damage ones someone used the synergy to reveal it, in case you do get hit. You can actually try immovable pots in the last stage, i havent yet, but if it follows the same rules as pvp you should not be knocked down...and if he knocks you down, then that's a really cheap way to make it harder.)

A few small things i would like to add about this game overall, which would benefit everyone playing with all content.

If they fix the break free already to actually work the way it should, then things would get less frustrating. The same thing go's for weapon swap. Some skills are also useless against npc's, like the templar eclipse. This should never be the case (except the boss itself), because it completely ruins a full class skill. Also make the skills more responsive, sometimes you need to press things multiple times before it responds even though you got no lag. Since DB update i also notice memory leaking after you play for a while, some guildies have the same problem. The AOE circles are still a little bugged, you still get hit outside of it regulary, which is also frustrating.

And as said before, make the endgame a bit less about high damage and very tanky mobs, and a bit more about skill. That way it's more fun (i'd think), and all classes or builds can complete it in their own way, i really miss things like hybride builds, they used to be fun.

My point is of it's to much to read, don't nerf the content as clearly people enjoy it and it's doable for most people, but please also consider adding content that's challanging in a different way. Giving npc's really high health and damage is a bit lazy if you ask me, MoL has tactics like the jing jang boss, stuff like that is fun. End phases for bosses are fine to make it challanging, but for some builds the damage is to high as it requiers you to bomb him down really fast. This is completely doable, but i requiers you to have high damage, which is a bit cheap as well if you ask me. I want to see the diversity this game was known for like before 1.6.

Apologies for my rough English.

Defilted

Have not ran them yet. I hope they are difficult.

MalakithAlamahdi

Defilted wrote: »

Have not ran them yet. I hope they are difficult.

First try they can be, Mazzatum at least. Make sure to bring an offhealer for the last boss, it will make your life a lot easier

MalakithAlamahdi

Dont know about you, but I prefer MoL style difficulty over damage sponges any day.

This, it's a lot more fun to have a diverse playstyle then having all hard content resolve around high damage and spongy mobs.

valthierX

I hope these dungeons are doable for casual gamers or for those who don't have 25k damage as a requirement.

So is this dlc hands off from players who only have 1 to 2k damage veteran character?

When you say 'normal mode' does that mean I need to have a character that has not reached level 50 yet?

LadyNalcarya

@valthierX wrote: »

I hope these dungeons are doable for casual gamers or for those who don't have 25k damage as a requirement.

So is this dlc hands off from players who only have 1 to 2k damage veteran character?

When you say 'normal mode' does that mean I need to have a character that has not reached level 50 yet?

1)All the difficulty is mechanic based (for example, there's a boss that charges at random player, like a giant bull, and you can make him hit another enemy this way). And dont forget that even in ICP the dps requirement never was 25k (more like 10-12 at vr16).
2)You can change the mode (normal/vet) in group menu, and yes, you can do normal version on vet character.

P.S. Im not sure if its possible to get 1-2k dps on veteran character, even without champion points.

The_Payne_Train

you are ruining this games end game content, all dungeons can be ran with 4 dps now its literally that easy that the traditional 2 dps 1 tank 1 healer is no longer needed. tanks are only nessesary in trials due to damn casuals having a cry! Make friends learn mechanics and get good or get lost!

don't play content you aren't good enough for.

[Edit to remove insulting content]

The_Payne_Train

Carbonised wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Scream and have hissy fits as much as you like, fact is that all you so-called 'hardcore' players are a vocal minority, and ZOS shouldn't make content solely for you, no. Find some other MMO to infect. (...)

You know why hardcore players are less vocal? Because we are too busy playing instead of flooding the forum with nerfs request. You should l2p and gitgud instead of asking Zos to nerf everything.

Do you know why you so-called 'hardcore' players are a tumor in this game? You incessantly cry for more challenge, but the truth is you don't really want challenge per se. What would be a challenge for you would to team up with some lesser experienced players, run them through some of the Hist or IC dungeons, teach them how to do it, and put up with the less than stellar performance and sub-par setup. That would be a challenge for you as a player, and it would provide your fellow players with the necessary experience and skills to actually complete the content.

But no, that's not what you do, because you only want challenge if it means distinguishing yourself above the heads of the lower rabble. Those mere plebs who have to 'l2p' and 'gitgud'. That's why you run all the endgame content with your fave 3 bros over and over again, sneering down at anyone who dares to join in, asking for their achievements as proof, and turning them away with a snide smirk telling them they dont' have 'exp'.
That's why you're nothing but toxic and a tumor to this game, you don't care a single squat about challenge, you just don't want content to be done by anyone else, so you can feel so bloody special, and that attitude I really don't give a single [snip] about.

Youre view on this is stupid. The newbs in this game aren't interested in learning these mechanics or running meta builds, us end game players want to go into content with our "3 best bro's" due to the simple fact we have gone through all the easier content with each other and learn how each member behaves in situations. Grouping with scrubs everytime we want a challenge is a stupid idea.... so stupid. There should be easy and hard content, do the easy content over and over till the hard content becomes easy.

snakester320

The_Payne_Train wrote: »

you are ruining this games end game content, all dungeons can be ran with 4 dps now its literally that easy that the traditional 2 dps 1 tank 1 healer is no longer needed. tanks are only nessesary in trials due to damn casuals having a cry! Make friends learn mechanics and get good or get lost!

don't play content you aren't good enough for.

And yet without the casuals and ppl that just play for fun deside to quit this game .. elitist rude know it alls like your self who prob only play the game for 2 months to do content then go back to destiny while they make more content wouldnt have a game you can abuse ppl about!! can imagine your the biggest cry baby when your pug group fails beacuse you want to tank and heal with a sorc because your a hero!!

Vaoh

Both of these dungeons have the same issue.

ZOS did a fantastic job creating them and balancing them. Too bad the QQ will get them nerfed.

Oh Velidreth, plz don't get nerfed

The_Payne_Train

[Quoted content removed]

I've been playing the game since launch I have one of every character and progressively assist guild members through harder content my statement extends from the example of WGT and ICP. The two dungeons in vet mode were challenging and extremely fun and rewarding when completed. This is an mmo! Mmo's are designed to have harder content rewarding better gear as you progress through the game.

[Edit to remove insulting content]