How do you PC people even play?

Asmael

BlackEar wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Only got 2 side buttons for my mouse, corresponding to abilities 4 & 5. Using a standard EU keyboard, so QZSD for movement, A for quickslot, R for ultimates, W for swapping, left alt for dodge rollz.

And, well, for ESO a controller is fine, but good luck playing some MMOs with a controller, when you got 50+ abilities, and need a combination of 1, 2, 3, 4... with Ctrl, alt, Ctrl + alt, caps, etc.

Mostly a matter of getting used to it and finding a comfortable position.

__

On a side node @BlackEar , what linked is relevant to animation cancelling, not macros. As mentioned, AC is allowed, macros are not.

Can you please link to the official ZOS response saying that? I post because I can not seem to find the official answer and a lot of people seem to know but can't post their source. @Asmael

Dum du dum, here you go:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

How dare you not read the ToS?

Alright, in all honesty, didn't read it all. I read it once back during Beta because the loading took so long, and even then, not all of it.

Technically, macros are included in both bolded parts. There was also a moderator or dev post somewhere in the forums about it, but CBA searching it (much harder to find IMO).

IcyDeadPeople

sAnn92 wrote: »

Uhm, really interesting. Have you played Eso with it? Can you walk diagonally with the thumb or you got to use the keys? If so,do you have enough room for skills, quickslot, crouch, sprint, tab target?

Yes, actually don't recall ever playing ESO without this thing. Haven't tried diagonal walking. I use the four keys in center and bottom of keypad like A, S, D, X method for left, fwd, right, back.



The directional pad I use for dodge roll, jump, sprint and crouch. Top row for abilities and synergy. Thumb side button for ultimate, thumb trigger for main damage ability. Pinky button for potions, other bottom row buttons for Tab target, Esc.

Scroll wheel for Inventory (up), Mount horse (down), and remaining buttons for different AlphaGear add on presets (various saved presets with different skills and equipment).

BlackEar

@Asmael I must have missed that part when I quickly scrolled past carefully read the Terms of Servitude agreement.

DUTCH_REAPER

I play on PC but use an XBOX ONE controller. I have no issues. Except lag. Lag is the devil.

Elsonso

BlackEar wrote: »

Can you please link to the official ZOS response saying that? I post because I can not seem to find the official answer and a lot of people seem to know but can't post their source.

First, a reference to the ToS: https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service
"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax."

The key phrases to note here are "influence or advantage Your playing abilities", "software that permits You to use Services without human input", and "not authorized by ZeniMax".

Next on our tour, we stop by this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200723/request-for-clarification-usage-of-addons-that-perform-multiple-actions-out-of-combat

"Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service."

As we continue our tour to the conclusion, we arrive at this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172346/need-clarification-on-gaming-keyboards

"Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned."

"The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation."

So, we can use the keyboards and the software that comes with them. However, we cannot use the keyboards or the software to create macros to automate in-game functions. This would include any combat macros, as well as chat emote macros and other non-combat conveniences.

Thanks to @ZOS_MollyH for providing all of these clarifications.

Carl-lan

Hi.

I had the same problem, but just plug in your Xbox controller into your PC. Win 10 installs the drivers automatically. I have a shortcut set up using the back button on my mouse to switch between game pad and keys, so when I'm running around town, looking through guild stores, crafting writs, or looking through menus I can use keyboard and mouse, then with one click I can swap back to game pad which I'm more comfortable and better with in combat.

Menus and nav are better with mouse. Also addons for PC are awesome. I don't even know how I managed to search guild stores on the Xbox, it's so much better on PC.

Finally the graphics are better on PC. Not sure if Xbox has AO, DOF or bloom, but the game is much nicer looking on PC.

HatchetHaro

It actually takes getting used to using the keyboard well. It requires only three fingers to be able to move in all directions and use skills simultaneously, and all of them take part in both movement and using skills.
In any case, movement uses both mouse and keyboard; mouse for the direction reference and keyboard for the actual movement.
As for some awkward key placement, well that's why you can swap them around. I generally put the skills I most frequently use on 2, 3, and 4.
My pinky can reach 1, 2. My middle finger can reach 2, 3, (4 as well but I generally don't). My index finger can reach 3, 4, 5.
If you have to use a key, however, it would mean that there's one direction you cannot move in. In normal adventuring it doesn't affect me at all; but in dungeons, as a tank, I move and strafe around a lot trying to taunt every enemy I can get my hands on. Countering this is actually pretty simple: I just switch directions if I have to lift a movement key to activate an ability. So if I alternate between using abilities 2 and 4 while moving constantly, I would also alternate between A and D so at least one finger is on a movement key, and in-game I would be strafing left and right. This may seem to limit movement on PC, but we also have a mouse, and if I strafe to the left while looking right, I technically would be going forward in my initial direction of view. The sheer flexibility and speed a mouse provides actually makes the whole thing much easier.
Experienced PC gamers know how to use both keyboard and mouse in tandem with each other, and with precision. You just need that experience.

Recremen

I just use my other fingers on the hand to hit the ability keys. It's actually really easy and natural after like, a day of experience. Then I just bind roll dodge and break free to the two button on my mouse and it's game on!

Miszou

+1 for Logitech G13 Gamepad and Logitech G9x mouse.

m2super_ESO

Growing up playing shooters got me used to wasd so I dont have issues, I do have issues with shooters on the consoles though so I stick to games like Madden on consoles.

Molag_Crow

You just have to use a special chocolate mouse to succeed. If you find a sweet roll mouse, you'll be at an advantage.

Rohamad_Ali

Most of these razors and keyboard extensions are gimmicks . I bought a keyboard extender and it was a waste for me . I'm a hundred times faster on a regular keyboards and 4 button mouse . If your not using macros there's no real need for all that programmable fluff .

I do find it useful on space MMOs though but not here .

rhapsodious

I've been using M&K for years now, since my first non-Nintendo console was an XBox 360 a little over 4 years ago. As-is, I barely have time for my consoles and 3DS with ESO taking up my time, so I'm pretty much M&K.

I use the Razer Deathadder Chroma:



and the Logitech G110 because I haven't bothered getting a mechanical keyboard yet:



Sorry, wanted a big image but had to get one with obnoxious lettering.

I bind my TeamSpeak PTT key to the bottom-most side button on the mouse and otherwise pretty much use default keybindings. I've been thinking of binding the top side button to weapon swap, but ~ isn't too hard to hit. In fact, my biggest problem is hitting R when I mean to hit E. And that's how I Dawnbreaker a crafting table.

dodgehopper_ESO

There are pros and cons. A mouse can swivel direction very rapidly, making it extremely efficient for targeting. Gaming mice have number pad keys, number pads like the nostromo are available as well. To be honest I do pretty well with just stock keyboard and mouse (which is how i've been able to play the last year on a laptop) but when I have everything set up the way I like it, I prefer my Razor mouse and logitech keyboard. For ESO I've really been meaning to set up my Steam controller but I've just not gotten around to it. I bought it around Christmas but I need to actually be living at home for more than a couple days to get acclimated to it and program and enjoy it. Speaking of which if there's any PC players who have figured out a Steam Controller arrangement they like, please let me know. I'm itching to play ESO on my steamlink on a 60' bigscreen.

dodgehopper_ESO

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Most of these razors and keyboard extensions are gimmicks . I bought a keyboard extender and it was a waste for me . I'm a hundred times faster on a regular keyboards and 4 button mouse . If your not using macros there's no real need for all that programmable fluff .

I do find it useful on space MMOs though but not here .

@Rohamad_Ali is dead on here. Some games require you to be activating far more than humanly possible. STO for instance almost presumes that you have a programmable keyboard, and to play that game right you really need separate programs for different builds. Its just the way that game rolls. I've heard that there are other games with similar issues. I'm not really into the programmable thing either, but STO is what got me using one, and I only used it for limited things like shield balance for instance. Shield balancing in STO can cause severe chronic stress on your fingers, I dont' care how young or old you are, and this is above and beyond the normal stress of playing games on a keyboard. Some games almost require a programmable keyboard for your health :P

Rohamad_Ali

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Most of these razors and keyboard extensions are gimmicks . I bought a keyboard extender and it was a waste for me . I'm a hundred times faster on a regular keyboards and 4 button mouse . If your not using macros there's no real need for all that programmable fluff .

I do find it useful on space MMOs though but not here .

@Rohamad_Ali is dead on here. Some games require you to be activating far more than humanly possible. STO for instance almost presumes that you have a programmable keyboard, and to play that game right you really need separate programs for different builds. Its just the way that game rolls. I've heard that there are other games with similar issues. I'm not really into the programmable thing either, but STO is what got me using one, and I only used it for limited things like shield balance for instance. Shield balancing in STO can cause severe chronic stress on your fingers, I dont' care how young or old you are, and this is above and beyond the normal stress of playing games on a keyboard. Some games almost require a programmable keyboard for your health :P

Exactly , the space games require them and a big nifty flight stick . I use mine for testing Star Citizen , playing Eve and Rebel Galaxy .

AtmaDarkwolf

ArchMikem wrote: »

This is going to be a VERY dumb topic, but I'm genuinely curious as I have no experience at all with PC MMO gameplay.

How do you guys even play ESO on PC? Like, I noticed the abilities are cast using the number keys, so I'm assuming it's the keys above A, W, S, and D. But trying that myself as practice, trying to hit the keys imagining that I'm trying to move around and cast something just feels incredibly awkward on my hand. Do you literally make stuttering stop and go movements cause you're constantly taking your finger off the forward key to cast an ability? Or is this just a matter of do it enough and it becomes habit sort of thing?

As an Xbox One player it seems fairly simple to me as movement is on the left side of the controller using the left thumbstick and all the abilities are cast using the right hand buttons, so you can cast without worrying about your movement. Though I pre-emptively bought ESO through Steam when it was on-sale as a sort of safety net in-case something goes wrong with the Console, I just feel odd about the control layout difference.

THIS is how I feel about people on consoles. How the heck can you possibly have ANY accuracy (I know, auto targeting) twitching(not sure this) or range of available 'actions' you can do.

You got what, 8-ish buttons? With switches thats maybe 64 total combo's you can manage...

I have +105 keys. With 12+ switch keys. Thats over 1000 different combinations. Plus I have a mouse. The difference in control, precision, and accuracy compared to a controller is just... *** dude, comparing a penny to Bill Gates + trumps fortunes.

Advantage a console has over a PC-er : you can lean back in your sofa with the bowl of Cheetos's balanced on your belly while you play.

Amsel_McKay

Best mouse I have ever owned... REDRAGON 16400DPI Adjustable USB Wired Gaming Mouse, has weights in the bottom so you can adjust the feel on that pad.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

all these pictures of the type of mouse people use that macro actions to the keys actually violate ZOS terms (if you read the small print) and is considered cheating...
but so many people cheat on PC (cheat engine to farm vMA, gap closing exploits to enter Keeps, using one low-level char so everyone can run through Sanctum to farm gear that drops at their character level...the list goes on) and that is your answer to how they play

False. First you don't need a fancy mouse to make a macro. There are plenty of 3rd party applications that can do it with any mouse/keyboard on the market. Second, very few people that are any good actually use macros. In PVP, sure they can be used to chain a burst sequence, but that is a risky move. It commits you to a sequence of events that cant be changed Most good players simply practice the rotation. In PVE you do hear about people using light attack macros for weaving, but these are ultimately self defeating. It might be better on a target dummy, but on anything that moves, it's a bad idea. You also lose the ability to alter your weave.

MMO mice are desirable for the button layout, not for macro use. This allows me so do the vast majority of my rotation with my right hand and deal with movement on my left hand.

From a control standpoint, a mouse keyboard is far superior to any controller once you get the hang of it, especially in terms of aiming. A mouse cursor is far more accurate than a thumb stick. This isn't terribly important in an MMO, but it is why shooters are more competitive on PC.

AtmaDarkwolf

BlackEar wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

Macros are against the TOS. I wouldn't go advertising it.

Source? All I heard was it was a grey area and they have not explicitly told us it was forbidden.

LOL the single time any @ZOS has ever made a statement toward animation canceling and yet somehow has forever become the 'proof' that its totally part of the game and will/can never change
This is amusing. Still is. More than a year later.

Dojohoda

We PC players manage just fine.

Going from controller to keyboard would take a little getting used to. Using any one of the aforementioned mouse with the side buttons makes gameplay more efficient (than using the numbers across the top of the keyboard).

Asmael

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Best mouse I have ever owned... REDRAGON 16400DPI Adjustable USB Wired Gaming Mouse, has weights in the bottom so you can adjust the feel on that pad.

Gotta love Redragon mouse



Simple, yet efficient.

dodgehopper_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

all these pictures of the type of mouse people use that macro actions to the keys actually violate ZOS terms (if you read the small print) and is considered cheating...
but so many people cheat on PC (cheat engine to farm vMA, gap closing exploits to enter Keeps, using one low-level char so everyone can run through Sanctum to farm gear that drops at their character level...the list goes on) and that is your answer to how they play

False. First you don't need a fancy mouse to make a macro. There are plenty of 3rd party applications that can do it with any mouse/keyboard on the market. Second, very few people that are any good actually use macros. In PVP, sure they can be used to chain a burst sequence, but that is a risky move. It commits you to a sequence of events that cant be changed Most good players simply practice the rotation. In PVE you do hear about people using light attack macros for weaving, but these are ultimately self defeating. It might be better on a target dummy, but on anything that moves, it's a bad idea. You also lose the ability to alter your weave.

MMO mice are desirable for the button layout, not for macro use. This allows me so do the vast majority of my rotation with my right hand and deal with movement on my left hand.

From a control standpoint, a mouse keyboard is far superior to any controller once you get the hang of it, especially in terms of aiming. A mouse cursor is far more accurate than a thumb stick. This isn't terribly important in an MMO, but it is why shooters are more competitive on PC.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw - I agree with this assessment. I could craft a killer macro'd combination, but combinations don't let you adapt, and if someone plays the counter while your program keeps firing things off - you are dead. There is also something to be said for actually building the skill to combo something for yourself. Maybe I prefer playing without macros in large part because of the games I played in my teen years (MK, Tekken, etc)(Yes I was around for pong and galaga too). Some games also allow for and expect macros, and others do not. It simply depends where you are playing to know what is acceptable.

dodgehopper_ESO

Dojohoda wrote: »

We PC players manage just fine.

Going from controller to keyboard would take a little getting used to. Using any one of the aforementioned mouse with the side buttons makes gameplay more efficient.

The reverse is very true. I actually want to chill on a controller, but so far I haven't gotten an arrangement I like yet.

waterfairy

PC gaming always felt awkward to me...it felt like I was playing business the game using mouse and keyboard. The only games that I didn't mind playing on it were RTS or turn based like Total War.

Flaminir wrote: »

Think of it as a more ergonomic and accurate version of a controller but for a PC.

More accurate but nothings more ergonomic then leaning back on a couch with a controller resting comfortably on your lap.

Nestor

ArchMikem wrote: »

I just feel odd about the control layout difference.

@ArchMikem

It's all about Muscle Memory. Takes a few days to get it sorted, but afterwards, it will be just as natural as using a controller. It's what I had to do when I moved from console gaming back to PC gaming in the late 90's.

nimander99

daemonios wrote: »

Was gonna post a similar pic but you nailed it. So yeah, this ^

SirAndy

ArchMikem wrote: »

How do you guys even play ESO on PC? Like, I noticed the abilities are cast using the number keys, so I'm assuming it's the keys above A, W, S, and D. But trying that myself as practice, trying to hit the keys imagining that I'm trying to move around and cast something just feels incredibly awkward on my hand. Do you literally make stuttering stop and go movements cause you're constantly taking your finger off the forward key to cast an ability?

You can customize your key bindings. I've been playing PC games since before many here were born and i have never ever used the default WASD keys. Ever.

Combine that with a gaming mouse that has additional keys and you have plenty of choices that aren't awkward ...


PS: Below is an image of my ability key bindings. Note that i am left-handed and i use the arrow keys for movement (except forward, which is on my 2nd mouse button).

W0lf_z13

this is my first mmo but i can move just fine using the wasd keys while attacking.... but then again ... i type all day at my job as well as used to play bass and the keyboard (musical one)... so its all really just second nature for me

Moonscythe

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Practice grasshopper

That's so easy to say and yet in practice not so easy to do. A story for illustration. When I knew that ESO was coming out but before even beta I knew I was at least interested though dubious on many levels since I played all TES on console and had never played an MMO at all. Also my only action type computer came was Diablo III. I had no trouble playing Diablo III. I decided to check out LOTRO as a test run for ESO because it was free. I hated the controls. They were awkward. The requirements for holding buttons to move made my hands hurt, the keys to move were jerky and lacked any subtlety so that I kept making wide turns and running into assorted enemies. I got a program to try to reassign keys and it didn't help either because the biggest problem was the mouse keys that couldn't be changed. The best I could do was reverse right and left. So, no, practice alone won't cut it. I should say that I am on a Mac so the options for free MMOs to try out were then and are still limited.