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Official Discussion Thread for "Matt Firor's Message from BE3"

  • TheTraveler
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    Junkogen wrote: »
    One Tamriel doesn't really fit story wise. The premise of the entire game is faction-based. By eliminating that, the quests make no sense. You need to add some kind of randomness to quests so that they change. That's the overhaul you should arrive for. I think your planned approach to make the game more like a sandbox will result the same way as racial passives did when soft caps were removed: they were incredibly imbalanced because the initial game was designed around soft caps. Essentially, you designed this entire game around factions. Now you want to remove factions but not really remove them? It seems like a good idea, but I just think it has a high likelihood of seeming out of place with the overall game and story design.

    That is a good point, but my suggestion would be that one should be able to access all of Tamriel once you have completed the main storyline, which would at least fit in reasonably well with the idea that the factions all united to combat Molag Bal.

    I've noticed that the DLC is for some reason currently separated according to faction, and I must say I cannot fathom why factions should not already have been able to mix in the DLC, since storywise, there is no reason at all that they should not be able to.

    There is one rather large problem that will occur if all factions can mix from scratch, and that is that EVERYBODY will start using Rawl'ka as their banking, crafting and general business area, since it is simply the most convenient town for business in the entire Tamriel.

    As it is, it's become almost too annoying to do banking there, because some immature characters derive great joy in trying their best to disrupt things in the bank, and make it pretty much impossible to do business with the banker, because they spam abilities while standing on the banker's table to the point that this morning I actually left and just went to the bank in Orsinium rather.

    I assume that ZOS does have the tech available that the game will simply create additional instances of an area when one of the areas become too crowded, but I thought I'd just mention this point in any case.
  • TheTraveler
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »

    Nothing I've said is making it a casual button masher. What I've suggested is actually more complex and brainy than what we currently have because you don't have 1 easy number to tell if you can take an enemy or not.

    Instead of having 1 character level I'm suggesting more of a dependency on individual skill lines, so you'd have multiple levels.

    My Nightblade alt that I've been playing lately is currently level 35 under the current system so I can use level 34 gear.

    Under the system I want, she has a medium armor level of 44, a bow level of 42, but a 2h weapon of 31

    That would mean I could use medium armor made from thick leather (level 44), and a Hickory bow (level 42), but could only use an Orichalcum Greatsword (level 30), because I haven't been leveling that as efficiently and have been using my bow more often. If I were to suddenly want to use dual wielded weapons, I'd be in for a real "treat" because that skill is at 6, I'd only be able to use iron 1h weapons, so I'd be much less capable than I currently am with a 2h much less a bow. It's actually more complex, not less.

    Any 6 year old can grind mobs in a circle and get xp and a higher character level, it doesn't take intelligence, it only takes not being so freaking bored that you just want to log out apply sandpaper to your eyeballs just so you don't have to see yourself running in circles grinding anymore. The more interesting progression is skill lines and skills, because those only progress based on use.

    Not to mention, it's more like the actual TES single player games, because like I said, level means very little in TES single player games aside from scaling up enemies. At the very least, character level should have 0 effect in combat, instead of the way it is now which is more like NON TES games instead of a TES game.

    Just because SOME people grind, doesn't mean you have to grind; the game as it currently is, has various mechanisms for progression. I guess you never grinded skills in Morrowind, where people would run and jump as much as possible to up their athletics skill, would summon familiars repeatedly so they could kill them again to up their weapon skills and summoning skills, etc. People will always find ways to try and power level up, and if you take all possibilities of progression away and make it a purely skills based game, then they will still find ways to do repetitive battle in order to hone their skills.

    Different people have different playstyles, and sometimes you just have to live and let live. Why does it bother you so much? It doesn't take anything away from you, does it? I actually think that for once ZOS has managed to create a battle system that is simple enough for even the casual gamer to master, but is complex enough in its variety of choices by the fact that any race can play any class and can use any weapon, to please experimenters like myself who prefer more complex systems to play around with.
  • Elsonso
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    Junkogen wrote: »
    One Tamriel doesn't really fit story wise. The premise of the entire game is faction-based. By eliminating that, the quests make no sense. You need to add some kind of randomness to quests so that they change. That's the overhaul you should arrive for. I think your planned approach to make the game more like a sandbox will result the same way as racial passives did when soft caps were removed: they were incredibly imbalanced because the initial game was designed around soft caps. Essentially, you designed this entire game around factions. Now you want to remove factions but not really remove them? It seems like a good idea, but I just think it has a high likelihood of seeming out of place with the overall game and story design.

    In One Tamriel, unless they make more changes than they have let on, the players are above the petty conflict between the Alliances. In Cyrodiil, we are mercenaries that fight for whatever side we prefer at the moment. Outside of Cyrodiil, we fight for whatever side owns the dirt we are standing on.

    This is really nothing new, we can just do it on a single character right from the starting gate instead of having to wait 50 levels. Since before the game released in 2014, they have been eroding the fealty to an Alliance. One Tamriel is just the latest in a long string of decisions to that end.

    As for the story, it costs a fortune to rewrite stories, rebuild quests, and get voice acting recorded. One Tamriel is game play related, not story related, so I expect they will duct tape and bailing wire where they can and leave the rest alone.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    • "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    • "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    • PSA: If anyone finds the Update 35 Q&A, please return it to the community staff. Thank you.
    ><)))*>
  • Enodoc
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    I actually really like @Arato's idea here. Basing the gear you can use on your skill level 1-50, not your character level 1-50, is a really neat suggestion! That would pave the way for implementing CP gear for any level too, which would make sense in the long run.
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  • Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    Battle leveling gives you the health/stam/magicka boosts of having a higher level and it will scale your armor and other stats. However when you fight things your level is still considered what it actually is, so for calculations like crit rates, you crit less often and do less damage I think.

    I was beginning to get that impression, because I've seen higher levels hit harder with whatever in these zones.

    Which is why I desperately hope that ZOS takes all that into account with their One Tamriel scaling, so that very new players, and relatively newer players like me aren't left behind. Presumably they know that anyone with a level 17 character in lvl 14 white armour with a lvl 14 purple greatsword isn't going to have it easy, even with battle-levelling.

    I really hope they don't forget that combat at level 3 is VASTLY different to combat at CP150-160, the chances are at level three that you don't have all purple/yellow gear, set bonuses, inherent traits, CPs, if you're a new player. Since vets will most likely have all those things and more, especially at max level, I can see how combat at that level would feel just like a newbie in the Wailing Prison.

    I need to know that my combat experience isn't going to suffer as a result of One Tamriel, I REALLY hope ZOS doesn't continue to make the battle-levelling seemingly insurmountable. I mean, you're in the Wailing Prison, and then you end up in a battle-levelled starter zone. There's going to be a MASSIVE difference in combat experience between those two zones, if all other zones are to be DLC-zone-scaled, don't tell me that someone fresh from the Wailing Prison won't notice the huge difference in fighting CP160s scaled up than fighting level 3/4s at their low level.

    In fact, someone else has already raised my concern here: http://esoacademy.com/news/one-tamriel-right-move/

    Look for Darth Akatosh's reply to one Paul's comment, and you can see the potential for disaster.

    I know whereof I and they speak, grinding regular mobs should not be in any way palpitation-inducing trial.

    And so, a difficulty slider (player-based stat adjustment or something like that) would really help here; people complaining about ease of difficulty would have a viable solution if that's what they really want, and so would I.

    If a difficulty slider is out of the question, I just hope the ZOS devs know what they're doing here, because One Tamriel sounds really great otherwise.

    No, the levels of the zones will still be the same, Auridon will still be a level 3-15ish zone, it's just that if you go to Grahtwood at level 3, you'll be scaled up to the stats of a level 20ish or something. Every zone won't be battle leveled to the same level.

    So it'll still be quite possible to level up the same way you do now going from zone to zone. You'll even have more level appropriate options with the other faction's zones.
    Edited by Arato on June 21, 2016 4:34PM
  • Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    the age/tshirt analogy is not even close.

    age is more like your character level.

    the current system makes it so that if you're a certain age, not only can you wear a t-shirt, but you can wear full ballistic bomb squad armor, despite never having been trained in its proper usage.

    Or more applicable, you can operate a fighter jet, just because you're 50 years old, it doesn't matter that you never learned to fly a cessna, or a simulator, just let me take this F-22 raptor off, I know what I'm doing!

    What I'm suggesting is that what plane you can fly is dependent on your piloting skill not your age.

    TheTraveler and ZOS have this backwards notion that your age should determine it.

    What are you talking about? Even if I am, in the current game, CP501, but have never weilded a destro staff, my destro staff ability will be zero, and I will not have a single skill in it. I have to actually start using it to gradually build up a skill line in it. Sounds to me as if you don't even know the current game mechanics, but you are very verbose in your criticism of it.

    Under the current system you can wield the best quality destro staff even if your skill in destro staffs is 1. Yes you won't have skill in it but you will still be able to use it and it'll do more damage than a lower quality staff with your class skills.

    I'm saying ideally, you'd have to use a maple staff, until your skill got higher.
  • Arato
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    Just because SOME people grind, doesn't mean you have to grind; the game as it currently is, has various mechanisms for progression. I guess you never grinded skills in Morrowind, where people would run and jump as much as possible to up their athletics skill, would summon familiars repeatedly so they could kill them again to up their weapon skills and summoning skills, etc. People will always find ways to try and power level up, and if you take all possibilities of progression away and make it a purely skills based game, then they will still find ways to do repetitive battle in order to hone their skills.

    Different people have different playstyles, and sometimes you just have to live and let live. Why does it bother you so much? It doesn't take anything away from you, does it? I actually think that for once ZOS has managed to create a battle system that is simple enough for even the casual gamer to master, but is complex enough in its variety of choices by the fact that any race can play any class and can use any weapon, to please experimenters like myself who prefer more complex systems to play around with.

    LOL, wow. you actually consider an xp based character leveling system to be "more complex" Wow, you're special.

    XP based character leveling systems are the simplest progression system in the RPG genre, that's why so many developers use them. It abstracts things down to the simplest possible explanation of character growth.

    Character does things, which means they get more experienced, which means they get better at everything.

    It doesn't matter in that system that different kinds of experience are not really transferrable between skills. Learning to use a bow really well doesn't translate to using a sword, learning to use a sword doesn't translate to picking locks and pickpocketing

    To level up any weapon, you fight and turn in quests using that weapon, you can speed it up by slotting skills from that weapon's skill line when you fight or turn in quests (or discover something on your map, pick a lock, etc), you're gaining experience, but it's experience in a specific field. To level up legerdeman, you pickpocket, pick locks, and fence stolen loot. To level up fighter's guild you kill specifically daedra and repel anchors. To level up thieve's guild you do thieve's guild jobs and heists, to level up mage's guild you read lorebooks...

    Having different ways to progress the different skill lines, I like that. It's just more involving than "gain xp, get better at everything at once"

    lol... more complex... ffs.
    Edited by Arato on June 21, 2016 4:53PM
  • lefthandovgod
    I think they should put this idea on the back burner. I am thinking the cross alliance dungeon grouping is good enough for now. This sounds like another great way to slow down the game and make it crash more often then it already does. I think they did a great job with the new patch, and I love the new content and how the game feels, but I would much prefer them to put out less content and fix the current stuff. I am tired of invisible player and enemies, and 3 loading screens from the bank to a wayshrine.

    Cross faction only makes sense in places like craglorn and wrothgar anyways..... lol
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  • shirozashikiub17_ESO
    shirozashikiub17_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    I was absolutely hyped to hear about One Tamriel. When I first bought the game, I was massively disappointed. Then Tamriel Unlimited was released, I came back to try the game, and yeah, it had improved a little bit, but it still wasn't an Elder Scrolls game.

    This is what I had wanted all along and I think it is exactly what will bring me into the game.
  • Arato
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    another thing that'll be nice about One tamriel.. it won't feel like shouting into a vacuum when looking for help on world bosses in mid level zones... well.. more possibility of finding people anyway. That's one of the things I hate about themepark mmo's with level based zones... when you get to mid level zones, they're empty.
    Edited by Arato on June 22, 2016 10:14PM
  • sentientomega
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    Arato wrote: »
    No, the levels of the zones will still be the same, Auridon will still be a level 3-15ish zone, it's just that if you go to Grahtwood at level 3, you'll be scaled up to the stats of a level 20ish or something. Every zone won't be battle leveled to the same level.

    So it'll still be quite possible to level up the same way you do now going from zone to zone. You'll even have more level appropriate options with the other faction's zones.

    That would be very similar to swtor, the main difference being you're not scaled up in the open world in swtor.

    I have a hunch they'll do crafting nodes in a similar manner to DLC zones, though for some people, it'll mean an huge shortage of resources in various tiers of equipment crafting, I wonder how they'll deal with that possibility?
  • Elsonso
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    Arato wrote: »
    No, the levels of the zones will still be the same, Auridon will still be a level 3-15ish zone, it's just that if you go to Grahtwood at level 3, you'll be scaled up to the stats of a level 20ish or something. Every zone won't be battle leveled to the same level.

    So it'll still be quite possible to level up the same way you do now going from zone to zone. You'll even have more level appropriate options with the other faction's zones.

    That would be very similar to swtor, the main difference being you're not scaled up in the open world in swtor.

    I have a hunch they'll do crafting nodes in a similar manner to DLC zones, though for some people, it'll mean an huge shortage of resources in various tiers of equipment crafting, I wonder how they'll deal with that possibility?

    They will offer stuff for sale at merchants, thinking this is a great solution.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    • "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    • "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    • PSA: If anyone finds the Update 35 Q&A, please return it to the community staff. Thank you.
    ><)))*>
  • technohic
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    Arato wrote: »
    another thing that'll be nice about One tamriel.. it won't feel like shouting into a vacuum when looking for help on world bosses in mid level zones... well.. more possibility of finding people anyway. That's one of the things I hate about themepark mmo's with level based zones... when you get to mid level zones, they're empty.

    Yeah; I was farming some lower level mats last night and I saw a guy hanging out by a boss, I assume waiting for help. I was thinking for some reason at the time that if I helped, I'd ruin it for him but thinking about it; I think I have helped before by just healing them and they still got credit.

    At any rate; It would be fun to not just mow through them. Or to do a decent dolmen with my max level character.

    Arato wrote: »
    No, the levels of the zones will still be the same, Auridon will still be a level 3-15ish zone, it's just that if you go to Grahtwood at level 3, you'll be scaled up to the stats of a level 20ish or something. Every zone won't be battle leveled to the same level.

    So it'll still be quite possible to level up the same way you do now going from zone to zone. You'll even have more level appropriate options with the other faction's zones.

    That would be very similar to swtor, the main difference being you're not scaled up in the open world in swtor.

    I have a hunch they'll do crafting nodes in a similar manner to DLC zones, though for some people, it'll mean an huge shortage of resources in various tiers of equipment crafting, I wonder how they'll deal with that possibility?

    I hope they leave the nodes the way they are. What good is it having a crafter if I cannot gear my alts.
  • AGrz5585
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    I'm kinda thinking that one tamriel will make the zones more like a single player elder scrolls game. Meaning that if I decide to quest in the rift straight out of the wailing prison, then the mobs in the rift will be level 3 like me. That would make things more interesting and have less potential problems
  • Firmus
    Firmus
    Soul Shriven
    I am not sure I get what this "One Tamriel" thing is all about, but if you mean merging the 3 factions into one in ALL PVE zones, I'd say this is absurd. I play for the Dominion, so I will describe things from my perspective. I simply cannot conceive having Reds and Blues walking around with me in Auridon or Grahtwood, for example, which are deep in Aldmeri territory. This simply makes no sense and would absolutely ruin the immersion. There is a war going on. People are killing each other in Cyrodill in the name of their faction. You cannot simply take a trip to your enemy's capital city just because you feel like it. Even some PVE quests reinforce this idea; you often find NPCs representing players from other factions, which, of course, are plotting against you and will attack you on sight. That's how it should be.

    It would be more acceptable to open up SOME zones for all 3 factions, not all of Tamriel. Wrothgar, for example, feels like a neutral territory (even though it is technically part of the Daggerfall Covenant). Outsiders have been invited to go there and help in any way they can. Seeing people from other factions and not being allowed to attack them would make sense, since you have to abide to the local neutrality.

    Cadwell's Gold and Silver already give us the means to experience all PVE content from other factions. You should not merge the factions.
  • Elsonso
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    technohic wrote: »
    I hope they leave the nodes the way they are. What good is it having a crafter if I cannot gear my alts.

    This is why I have stopped enchanting armor for my alts. I used to do it on my alts at all levels, but looking at resource demands, and not being able to recover these as easily, I am reserving enchantments for special occasions. I focus more on item sets to provide what enchanting did for me. Rather than using stock crafted armor and enchanting it, I now hike to the far corners of Tamriel to make a set. Though the set is only good for a couple levels, it is better than enchantments.

    If they make it harder for me to equip my alts because I cannot even craft the sets, I will just drop back to wearing what I find exclusively. As a supplier of materials to others, I draw the line at spending gold at the merchants for crafting materials.

    On the subject of scaling zones under One Tamriel...
    Firor wrote:
    "One Tamriel is the last large system left on that list. We have been steadily building towards it, with all of our DLC being level-balanced, and now is the perfect time to level-balance the entire game world."

    “In general, higher level players will be the same 'level' as lower level players, but they will have far more tools in their arsenal: better gear, more abilities, and of course more Champion points,”

    I am fairly sure they are going to make all zones like DLC zones. They will all be CP 150, or whatever, and we will scale up to that permanently, no matter what our character is. If they scale to the zone, and the zones remain the same, that is just a more complicated way of doing it, but the result is the same.
    MMORPG: What exactly is the point of leveling now, from 1-50? Do you plan to remove those at some point?

    MF: Having a graduation moment at level 50 is an important milestone in a character’s life, so the first 50 levels definitely add a sense of progression and enables the player to make their character broader and more powerful (and dabble in things like crafting) by earning skill points. Also, the differentiation between Pre-Veteran and Veteran levels is important, as Veteran levels open up the second, more difficult layers of dungeons and Trials.

    This was a good question and Firor neatly danced around it. There is really no point in building the character level in a world where we are scaled to the zones. No matter where we go, our character level simply does not matter. It only matters for "graduation" and applying skill and attribute points. The latter should be based on XP, and not level. This would avoid the complicated formula they created when they removed Veteran Ranks to make up for the loss of 16 levels. As for "graduation", I have already suggested they use class skill progression.
    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    • "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    • "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    • PSA: If anyone finds the Update 35 Q&A, please return it to the community staff. Thank you.
    ><)))*>
  • Darkestnght
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    Not so impressed by any of this and could really care a less about new content....now please fix your game so it can be played without; crashing, lagging, getting kicked back to loading screen randomly, getting locked in a black hole and not able to access my character, along with jumping keep walls and many other issues that have been brought up on the forums. Please take your time and get it working correctly/smoothly before any new content comes out. Then I would be impressed, thankful and back to loving a game that can be fun to play.

    Best regards
    Edited by Darkestnght on June 24, 2016 4:47PM
    Xbox NA - CP1300+
    Xbox EU - CP400+

  • sentientomega
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    I wonder, also, if we'll get more purchasable character slots than just the extra four with DB in the event of One Tamriel's arrival?

    It might also be an interesting feature regarding node harvesting, for equipment crafting, if each character was able to set whichever tier of resources they'd get, based on whichever is higher, crafting level or character level. For instance, I have a level 18 crafter who's now able to craft tier 4 (lvl 36-44) of everything equipment-wise. There'd be three dropdown boxes somewhere labelled Clothing, Blacksmithing and Woodworking, and for that character, anything above tier 4 would be greyed out. I have a level 29 who can only craft the basic level (1-14) of gear, and so they'd be able to harvest tier 3s, but no higher, but change to any drop-down option might well necessitate a reloading of the UI.

    Such a system would mean that no shortage of such resources of any tier would exist, as in any zone at any level you'd get exactly what you're after.

    I'd be getting all my medium mats from the zones I usually get plain old rawhide...
    Edited by sentientomega on June 27, 2016 10:23AM
  • TheTraveler
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    I wonder, also, if we'll get more purchasable character slots than just the extra four with DB in the event of One Tamriel's arrival?

    It might also be an interesting feature regarding node harvesting, for equipment crafting, if each character was able to set whichever tier of resources they'd get, based on whichever is higher, crafting level or character level. For instance, I have a level 18 crafter who's now able to craft tier 4 (lvl 36-44) of everything equipment-wise. There'd be three dropdown boxes somewhere labelled Clothing, Blacksmithing and Woodworking, and for that character, anything above tier 4 would be greyed out. I have a level 29 who can only craft the basic level (1-14) of gear, and so they'd be able to harvest tier 3s, but no higher, but change to any drop-down option might well necessitate a reloading of the UI.

    Such a system would mean that no shortage of such resources of any tier would exist, as in any zone at any level you'd get exactly what you're after.

    I'd be getting all my medium mats from the zones I usually get plain old rawhide...

    This would be an awesome solution to the crafting resources problem...
  • TheTraveler
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    the age/tshirt analogy is not even close.

    age is more like your character level.

    the current system makes it so that if you're a certain age, not only can you wear a t-shirt, but you can wear full ballistic bomb squad armor, despite never having been trained in its proper usage.

    Or more applicable, you can operate a fighter jet, just because you're 50 years old, it doesn't matter that you never learned to fly a cessna, or a simulator, just let me take this F-22 raptor off, I know what I'm doing!

    What I'm suggesting is that what plane you can fly is dependent on your piloting skill not your age.

    TheTraveler and ZOS have this backwards notion that your age should determine it.

    What are you talking about? Even if I am, in the current game, CP501, but have never weilded a destro staff, my destro staff ability will be zero, and I will not have a single skill in it. I have to actually start using it to gradually build up a skill line in it. Sounds to me as if you don't even know the current game mechanics, but you are very verbose in your criticism of it.

    Under the current system you can wield the best quality destro staff even if your skill in destro staffs is 1. Yes you won't have skill in it but you will still be able to use it and it'll do more damage than a lower quality staff with your class skills.

    I'm saying ideally, you'd have to use a maple staff, until your skill got higher.

    What you suggest will permanently lock a character into using what they chose at the get-go, and would make changing weapon skill lines so impractical as to not be viable.
    So, if I'd only been using 2handed on my CP501 toon, and would like to add for bow for ranged, or dual-wield for more set pieces, but I have to use a lvl1 maple bow or level 1 iron weaps in CP160 areas, I'm not going to get anywhere.

    At least the way things are now, I can go to a level 5 area to work on leveling up my bow skills, but if we were to be level scaled as in the One Tamriel scenario, with your proposed system, you're basically stuffed when it comes to adding new weapon skill lines - my character will be stuck with his boring old 2handed weapon for all eternity.
  • TheTraveler
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    Actually, come to think of it, even with the way things are now, your (Arato's) system would make adding a new weapon impossible, because if I went to a level 5 zone to level my little maple bow, that still wouldn't help me, because I wouldn't earn any exp killing things in a level 5 zone... and in the harder zones, trying to use my little lvl1 iron weapon against high-level enemies would just get me killed. Unless I spam healing along with the bow shots, I guess...

    I can never understand why people try to fix things that already work well- why they try to invent a wheel that turns perfectly just the way it is. Leveling works fine the way it currently is in ESO.

    Also, to people who want to be able to play end-game content the moment they start the game, I want to ask you to give me an example of ANY OTHER RPG-type game where you can do this. (Except in simple, brawler like games like Streetfighter and Mortal Kombat, etc. of which there are many.) All RPG games show progression, and the fun of playing lies in earning your rewards. Why even bother playing if you are already mega-strong and OP the moment you start the game?
    What is so very wrong in working for your rewards? I just don't get it.
    If you want to play pure fighting games, why not just stick to those - there are many, many, many of them.... Why can RPG-lovers and TES - lovers not have an MMO that features progression? :(
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    the age/tshirt analogy is not even close.

    age is more like your character level.

    the current system makes it so that if you're a certain age, not only can you wear a t-shirt, but you can wear full ballistic bomb squad armor, despite never having been trained in its proper usage.

    Or more applicable, you can operate a fighter jet, just because you're 50 years old, it doesn't matter that you never learned to fly a cessna, or a simulator, just let me take this F-22 raptor off, I know what I'm doing!

    What I'm suggesting is that what plane you can fly is dependent on your piloting skill not your age.

    TheTraveler and ZOS have this backwards notion that your age should determine it.

    What are you talking about? Even if I am, in the current game, CP501, but have never weilded a destro staff, my destro staff ability will be zero, and I will not have a single skill in it. I have to actually start using it to gradually build up a skill line in it. Sounds to me as if you don't even know the current game mechanics, but you are very verbose in your criticism of it.

    Under the current system you can wield the best quality destro staff even if your skill in destro staffs is 1. Yes you won't have skill in it but you will still be able to use it and it'll do more damage than a lower quality staff with your class skills.

    I'm saying ideally, you'd have to use a maple staff, until your skill got higher.

    What you suggest will permanently lock a character into using what they chose at the get-go, and would make changing weapon skill lines so impractical as to not be viable.
    So, if I'd only been using 2handed on my CP501 toon, and would like to add for bow for ranged, or dual-wield for more set pieces, but I have to use a lvl1 maple bow or level 1 iron weaps in CP160 areas, I'm not going to get anywhere.

    At least the way things are now, I can go to a level 5 area to work on leveling up my bow skills, but if we were to be level scaled as in the One Tamriel scenario, with your proposed system, you're basically stuffed when it comes to adding new weapon skill lines - my character will be stuck with his boring old 2handed weapon for all eternity.

    No, for 2 reasons. #1, scaling in one Tamriel doesn't work that way. The zones will still be level 1-4, level 3-14, level 15-23, level 23-31, level 32-37, level 38-43, and Coldharbor will be 43-50, and Craglorn, and all DLC areas will be CP-160 (one of the reasons I want to switch systems is this jump.. from level 50, to CP 160.. that's a huge gap, but without the silver/gold zones that's just what it is)

    So you would be able to go back, you'd be able to level up in lower level zones.

    #2, under a system like that mobs wouldn't have a character level just like you wouldn't. the mob's difficulty would be based on the mob's type. So skeever's, hoavors and the like would be easy, Daedroths, Minotaurs, Harvesters, Liches would be hard. Humanoids would have weapon skill levels for the weapons they were using.
  • sentientomega
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    Something else has occurred to me: scaling of the main story quests, and those of the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild, hardly any of which take place in the open world.

    They're all instanced, largely in solo-only zones. Will enemies continue to scale up to character level in these instances, or will we be scaled back down to the quests' standard levels?
    Edited by sentientomega on June 29, 2016 11:10AM
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Something else has occurred to me: scaling of the main story quests, and those of the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild, hardly any of which take place in the open world.

    They're all instanced, largely in solo-only zones. Will enemies continue to scale up to character level in these instances, or will we be scaled back down to the quests' standard levels?

    I'd imagine those would stay scaling up to player level to always give the intended play experience. Same as dungeons.

    Open world you can't scale the world based on who's in it really, but you can scale people up to the intended level of the open world content.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    Arato wrote: »
    Something else has occurred to me: scaling of the main story quests, and those of the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild, hardly any of which take place in the open world.

    They're all instanced, largely in solo-only zones. Will enemies continue to scale up to character level in these instances, or will we be scaled back down to the quests' standard levels?

    I'd imagine those would stay scaling up to player level to always give the intended play experience. Same as dungeons.

    Open world you can't scale the world based on who's in it really, but you can scale people up to the intended level of the open world content.

    It seems likely, as it'd be simple to just keep things there as they are now.

    In a zone, like Auridon for example, would our scaled levels constantly be fluctuating between 5 and 15, based on our location in the zone?
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    Something else has occurred to me: scaling of the main story quests, and those of the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild, hardly any of which take place in the open world.

    They're all instanced, largely in solo-only zones. Will enemies continue to scale up to character level in these instances, or will we be scaled back down to the quests' standard levels?

    I'd imagine those would stay scaling up to player level to always give the intended play experience. Same as dungeons.

    Open world you can't scale the world based on who's in it really, but you can scale people up to the intended level of the open world content.

    It seems likely, as it'd be simple to just keep things there as they are now.

    In a zone, like Auridon for example, would our scaled levels constantly be fluctuating between 5 and 15, based on our location in the zone?

    That I don't know, maybe it'll just scale you to level 14 for the entire zone. Maybe it'll scale you to 10 as an "average"
  • sentientomega
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    Well, given that DLC zones scale lower levels to CP150, and the enemies are CP160, that might make sense to scale lowbies up to one level below the max for a zone, but would not make sense to do it differently for scaling higher levels down, like swtor does (the max, or one level above, certainly no more than three levels above)?

    Bearing in mind that both methods are likely to cause the lowest level mobs to be grey, thus yielding nothing.

    That being the case, I think it most likely if they scale you up to the max for a zone, and scale all enemies in that zone up to that level. For instance, Auridon's enemies would all be 15.

    In any case, I doubt they'd do anything to actively discourage new players.
    Edited by sentientomega on July 1, 2016 10:17AM
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Well, given that DLC zones scale lower levels to CP150, and the enemies are CP160, that might make sense to scale lowbies up to one level below the max for a zone, but would not make sense to do it differently for scaling higher levels down, like swtor does (the max, or one level above, certainly no more than three levels above)?

    Bearing in mind that both methods are likely to cause the lowest level mobs to be grey, thus yielding nothing.

    That being the case, I think it most likely if they scale you up to the max for a zone, and scale all enemies in that zone up to that level. For instance, Auridon's enemies would all be 15.

    In any case, I doubt they'd do anything to actively discourage new players.

    It's also going to be just really bizarre, going from level 49-50 mobs in Coldharbor, and lower in all the other zones, to level CP 160 in Craglorn and all DLC areas. That's quite a jump.

    Mobs in silver and gold zones jump up quite a bit as it is now. Used to be the tutorial island(s) and first zone would be VR1 (or VR6 for gold), next zone VR2/VR7, next VR3/VR8, etc, going up 1 VR per zone.

    Now it goes VR40 for those starter island(s)/first zone, 70 for the second zone, 100 for the third zone, 130 for the fourth, and 150 for the 5th, and all gold zones are 160. I don't think people who are noobs are 160 by the time they reach gold zones, even if they level only under enlightenment you're not getting 30 CP per zone.. maybe 15.
  • anonymousnobodyb14_ESO
    I'm wondering how this system will work going forward...right now the top end for enemies, gear, etc. are cp160. Going into any of the DLC zones, lower-levelled players are scaled up, true, but they still have a bit of a tough time considering they don't have the gear, skill points, attribute points, and especially champion points that someone doing it at max level would have.

    So what's going to happen in future updates after One Tamriel launches? Are they going to just keep the cap at cp 160? (Which means the game is just going to stagnate and die) Or are they going to raise this top end from time to time, which seems like a whole lot of work to do for the entire game world? And will make the difficulty for pre-50 characters worse and worse? For example...Imagine a new player, who has no cp, getting out of the tutorial area and getting dropped into Bleakrock, Khenarthi's, or Stros M'kai at level 3 when the enemies are all cp500 or whatever.

    While this system sounds really great at first glance, I am somewhat wary of what's going to happen with it in the future
  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    I'm wondering how this system will work going forward...right now the top end for enemies, gear, etc. are cp160. Going into any of the DLC zones, lower-levelled players are scaled up, true, but they still have a bit of a tough time considering they don't have the gear, skill points, attribute points, and especially champion points that someone doing it at max level would have.

    So what's going to happen in future updates after One Tamriel launches? Are they going to just keep the cap at cp 160? (Which means the game is just going to stagnate and die) Or are they going to raise this top end from time to time, which seems like a whole lot of work to do for the entire game world? And will make the difficulty for pre-50 characters worse and worse? For example...Imagine a new player, who has no cp, getting out of the tutorial area and getting dropped into Bleakrock, Khenarthi's, or Stros M'kai at level 3 when the enemies are all cp500 or whatever.

    While this system sounds really great at first glance, I am somewhat wary of what's going to happen with it in the future

    You don't seem to grasp the concept of 'battle leveling'. Battle leveling makes lower level players almost stronger than higher level players because of the compensation involved... and when CP160 is raised, all it involves is plugging in a new number and it will populate game-wide... basically making everything quite similar to how it is now with Orsinium, TG, and DB. Which is one of the reasons I don't agree with the whole 'battle-leveling' concept... because once you're at max level, things will only be 'somewhat' increased in difficulty until you reach the new max level... which any player with over 160 CP will already be at... so all the game will then involve is just crafting a new set of armor with the newest, highest level materials. Right now the ONLY 'difficult' content that will continue to be add to the game are the veteran dungeons and for some, PvP will continue be the only "challenge".
    Edited by ADarklore on July 3, 2016 8:56AM
    CP: 1580 ** ESO+ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
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