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Official Discussion Thread for "Matt Firor's Message from BE3"

  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    Sir, please, you obviously are not a fan of RPG's. This game purported to be an RPG. I put a lot of money into this game, expecting it to behave like an RPG. RPG's involve starting off weak, and building up a progressively stronger character. Progressing in this way, gives the player a goal to work towards and satisfaction in reaping the rewards. People like yourself want to take this away from myself and other RPG-lovers.

    You say "skill line levels" well... what does 400 skills help me if I have only 2 bars of 5 (6 with ult) skills each that I can use at a time?
    ...and why bother to bust your gut finding the ultra scarce and expensive resources for CP160 gear, when the brand-new player with his level 3 gear scales to the same level anyway, just for much, much cheaper?

    Please, please, ZOS - make a new action-kiddie game for people who prefer action games with instant rewards, and leave this an RPG for those who have invested a lot of time and money into what they thought was an RPG because it was marketed as an RPG.

    Oh, Bethesda, the makers of Morrowind and Daggerfall must be crying into their pillows at night to see what you have done to a once-great franchise.

    If they do this, I want my money back. What is being proposed here, is not the game i signed up for :(

    ...and I DO have friends in the game, btw, and I CAN ALREADY go and play with a friend's level 1 toon with my VR16 toon, I don't see what prevents the vet toon to enter and play in the starter areas - in fact, as we speak there are vet characters farming the starter areas and robbing the newbies of precious resources; don't ask me why they cannot stick to their own areas instead.

    I was planning to buy this game for my cousin's birthday so that we can play it together, but I will definitely not do so anymore, and am thinking seriously of unsubbing.

    All of those progression systems I mentioned are RPG mechanics.

    XP based leveling systems are only ONE way of establishing a separation between character skill and player skill, just like numeric stats or character skills that you can advance.

    XP based character level systems are for games where you don't have individual character skills so you gain a level to signify that you improved at everything at once.

    TES has character skills that improve independently from use. Instead of getting better at using a sword by gaining xp and leveling up you get better at using a sword by using a sword.

    You have skill lines like 1h and shield, or dual wielding. As you dual wield, you get better at dual wielding, as indicated by your dual wielding skill going up from 1 to 50, in that process you unlock new skills you can put skill points into, and new passives.

    That is independent of character level. Character level doesn't even play into it.

    In single player TES games your character level doesn't mean much, the only thing it means is that the scaling changes so you start getting stronger enemies, and you get perk (in skyrim anyway) and attribute points to assign. In TESO, the level up gives you a skill point and attribute point to assign. Unfortunately it also has the themepark MMO significance of gating what gear you can wear (which would make much more sense to base on skill line rather than character level. My level VR16 Tank that had never used a bow before shouldn't be able to equip a top tier bow and gain full damage from it, it should do as low damage as a maple bow in my hands until I get my bow skill up), and also plays into damage calculations and crit calculations. It should be more like Elder Scrolls, less like world of warcraft.

    Anyway, in single player TES, the primary thing character level affects is enemy scaling. It's supposed to be based on what relative strength the game thinks you have, but it doesn't always work out.

    If you level up purely through smithing (in Skyrim) at the start of the game you'll be like level 27 or something like that .. but you'll have no combat skills or perks. You'll start fighting people that can wipe the floor with you and you'll do very little damage and get rekt by nearly every hit because you have no skill at wielding the weapons you can smith or wearing the armor you can smith.

    The more meaningful advancement and progression is leveling up those individual skill lines so you can put in perk points. Those perks and the increased damage you can do from improving your weapon skill are GAMECHANGING. While your character level? Almost meaningless.

    Before you claim Skyrim was not an RPG. same thing in Morrowind. Morrowind leveling up gave you 1-5 attribute points in 3 attributes of your choosing, but if you're level 50 and try to use a dagger with 5 skill in short blade, you will miss on almost every strike still. But you're level 50? You're supposed to be stronger! Doesn't matter. What matters is your skill level in an individual skill line. All leveling did was give you some attribute points, and change the scaling of the enemies you fought.

    Skill points, Skill level lines, skill progression, and champion points are all deeper, more meaningful, more involved progression than character levels.

    Leveling up in all games that call themselves RPG's would give you a chance to allocate points to basic ATTRIBUTES (like health, magica, stamina, charisma, agility) as opposed to SKILLS (like 2-handed, destro staff, stormcalling etc.) The SP TES games always had a leveling up of attributes, and in ESO, things like weapon damage and spell damage, scaled off things like stamina and magica. Remove levels, and you may as well remove stam, mag and health (which the proposed changes will effectively do in any case) , and limit an already choice-limited game even more. Thanks for wanting to limit our choices and our feeling of progression to that of a basic shooter. Why don't we all just go and play COD instead.... :(

    There's plenty of RPG's without attributes (Skyrim is one, Deus Ex another), and I think Deus Ex doesn't have levels either, you just gain Praxis points to advance your skills after gaining so much xp.

    There's lots of different progression systems in RPG's. The key thing of making a game an RPG is a separation between player skill and character skill. In a pure action game, your success in the game is 100% dependent on your skill as a player.

    In an RPG, part of your success is dependent on character skill rather than player skill.

    Lots of ways to do that. You can remove all semblance of player skill except decision making by abstracting combat (making it turn based, utilizing dice rolls, character attributes/level, or you can have some more player skill contribution by having real time systems as Elder Scrolls does. Elder scrolls makes player skill determine whether or not your attack lands, but character skill determines for how much.

    ...and if you battle level everything, and remove all player choices, how is it dependent on character skill as opposed to player skill?
  • Collyn
    Collyn
    Soul Shriven
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.
    Edited by Arato on June 17, 2016 4:28PM
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    Arato wrote: »
    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.

    If they had separate PvP instances, sure. Otherwise, for PvE, how it is now is fine imo.
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.

    If they had separate PvP instances, sure. Otherwise, for PvE, how it is now is fine imo.

    We're talking about a way of having some open world PVP, so no, "how it is now" is not fine because it doesn't exist. There's only the AvA zone

    I get it, you're afraid of ganking because most games that have open world PVP make being a target involuntary.

    But if the justice system is done properly, you'd never have to worry about that because who runs around with bounties in the thousands accidentally? Just carry leniency edicts.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.

    If they had separate PvP instances, sure. Otherwise, for PvE, how it is now is fine imo.

    We're talking about a way of having some open world PVP, so no, "how it is now" is not fine because it doesn't exist. There's only the AvA zone

    I get it, you're afraid of ganking because most games that have open world PVP make being a target involuntary.

    But if the justice system is done properly, you'd never have to worry about that because who runs around with bounties in the thousands accidentally? Just carry leniency edicts.

    This justice system IS being done properly, specifically because PvP is being kept out of it. Basically, rampant exploitation by violators and ganksters; swtor had this trouble, but they separated server instances, and now no-one but NO-one can ever be flagged against their will any more, and that was the best thing they ever did to the game. The only people who disagreed with that turned out to be, surprise surprise, PvP-proud griefers who tried, but failed, to avoid being seen as such.

    In a way, it's sort of how ESO does it now with PvP in Cyrodiil and IC and PvE-only everywhere else, and it should stay that way, keep PvE and PvP totally separate. You will never catch me in Cyrodiil, or Imperial City, ever.

    I want people to enjoy the game, but not at anyone else's expense but their own; griefers clearly do not share this sentiment, and all they'll ever do is drive players away.
    Edited by sentientomega on June 19, 2016 2:00PM
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.

    If they had separate PvP instances, sure. Otherwise, for PvE, how it is now is fine imo.

    We're talking about a way of having some open world PVP, so no, "how it is now" is not fine because it doesn't exist. There's only the AvA zone

    I get it, you're afraid of ganking because most games that have open world PVP make being a target involuntary.

    But if the justice system is done properly, you'd never have to worry about that because who runs around with bounties in the thousands accidentally? Just carry leniency edicts.

    This justice system IS being done properly, specifically because PvP is being kept out of it. Basically, rampant exploitation by violators and ganksters; swtor had this trouble, but they separated server instances, and now no-one but NO-one can ever be flagged against their will any more, and that was the best thing they ever did to the game. The only people who disagreed with that turned out to be, surprise surprise, PvP-proud griefers who tried, but failed, to avoid being seen as such.

    In a way, it's sort of how ESO does it now with PvP in Cyrodiil and IC and PvE-only everywhere else, and it should stay that way, keep PvE and PvP totally separate. You will never catch me in Cyrodiil, or Imperial City, ever.

    I want people to enjoy the game, but not at anyone else's expense but their own; griefers clearly do not share this sentiment, and all they'll ever do is drive players away.

    That isn't even close to how the justice system would work. FFS. In SWTOR you just had to be on a contested planet. That isn't even remotely close. You just panic at the sheer mention of PVP and don't use your brain to even analyze how a proper Justice system would work. Please, use your brain.

    In SWTOR, once you got off the starter planets, you could be attacked by the other faction on PVP servers, and you could flag by hitting a stealthed opposite faction person with your aoe on a PVE server. That removes the "voluntary" aspect of it, because it could be exploited, and because the ways the zones are done and leveling system is done, you cannot progress in PVE without going to contested planets after about level 20 or so.

    In what I've always read the COMPLETE Justice system (yes, the system we have now is incomplete), in order for an enforcer to attack you, you had to have a substantially high bounty, higher than the bounty it takes for NPC guards to kill on sight currently. In order to be an enforcer you had to join the enforcer guild.

    So even if a "griefer" was stealthed next to your mobs while you were aoeing and he had a bounty in the 10's of thousands so he was flagged to be killed by enforcers, he wouldn't be able to attack you because for #1, in PVE you can see all other players even sneaking ones, so that wouldn't fool you, and #2, you're not a part of the enforcer guild so you can't attack outlaws, therefore they cannot attack you. You're sheltered from PVP.

    If you want to be a PVE outlaw yourself, and still be sheltered from PVP under a complete justice system, just carry counterfeit pardon edicts, you get them from every thieves guild tip board quest, and you get them commonly in thieves' troves, I carry at least 20 at all times, or you can pay your bounty by running into the nearest guard or fence before it gets high.

    Explain to me how that can be exploited and poor widdle pve players would get preyed upon.

    Before you say "they'll camp the outlaw refuge entrance" .. each refuge has multiple entrances and again, you can see them, even in stealth, you can also go to ANY outlaw refuge they can't be at them all every entrance.

    I very rarely PVP, and I hate open world PVP systems that are like TERA's where a griefer can just flag themselves and kill players in 1 hit that are way under their level.

    That is WHY I support the proposed Justice system they had going some time ago, because it was creative, it fit into the lore, it could be RP'ed, and it was voluntary.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
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    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    Collyn wrote: »
    This game is going into the right direction! The only thing I whish they did is make a different pvp and pve server. Then you could truly create an open world in which pvp is possible everywhere. Don't want to go to deep into it for this post. But a way to fight the enemy faction outside the generic cyrodill to have that thrill to encounter a player of the enemy faction while questing would be amazing. Anyway this is a good step forward !

    They should just complete the Justice system

    PVP would be pretty much voluntary because you have to rack up a big bounty to be flagged for PVP, and you have to flag as an enforcer to attack criminals.

    If they had separate PvP instances, sure. Otherwise, for PvE, how it is now is fine imo.

    We're talking about a way of having some open world PVP, so no, "how it is now" is not fine because it doesn't exist. There's only the AvA zone

    I get it, you're afraid of ganking because most games that have open world PVP make being a target involuntary.

    But if the justice system is done properly, you'd never have to worry about that because who runs around with bounties in the thousands accidentally? Just carry leniency edicts.

    This justice system IS being done properly, specifically because PvP is being kept out of it. Basically, rampant exploitation by violators and ganksters; swtor had this trouble, but they separated server instances, and now no-one but NO-one can ever be flagged against their will any more, and that was the best thing they ever did to the game. The only people who disagreed with that turned out to be, surprise surprise, PvP-proud griefers who tried, but failed, to avoid being seen as such.

    In a way, it's sort of how ESO does it now with PvP in Cyrodiil and IC and PvE-only everywhere else, and it should stay that way, keep PvE and PvP totally separate. You will never catch me in Cyrodiil, or Imperial City, ever.

    I want people to enjoy the game, but not at anyone else's expense but their own; griefers clearly do not share this sentiment, and all they'll ever do is drive players away.

    That isn't even close to how the justice system would work. FFS. In SWTOR you just had to be on a contested planet. That isn't even remotely close. You just panic at the sheer mention of PVP and don't use your brain to even analyze how a proper Justice system would work. Please, use your brain.

    In SWTOR, once you got off the starter planets, you could be attacked by the other faction on PVP servers, and you could flag by hitting a stealthed opposite faction person with your aoe on a PVE server. That removes the "voluntary" aspect of it, because it could be exploited, and because the ways the zones are done and leveling system is done, you cannot progress in PVE without going to contested planets after about level 20 or so.

    In what I've always read the COMPLETE Justice system (yes, the system we have now is incomplete), in order for an enforcer to attack you, you had to have a substantially high bounty, higher than the bounty it takes for NPC guards to kill on sight currently. In order to be an enforcer you had to join the enforcer guild.

    So even if a "griefer" was stealthed next to your mobs while you were aoeing and he had a bounty in the 10's of thousands so he was flagged to be killed by enforcers, he wouldn't be able to attack you because for #1, in PVE you can see all other players even sneaking ones, so that wouldn't fool you, and #2, you're not a part of the enforcer guild so you can't attack outlaws, therefore they cannot attack you. You're sheltered from PVP.

    If you want to be a PVE outlaw yourself, and still be sheltered from PVP under a complete justice system, just carry counterfeit pardon edicts, you get them from every thieves guild tip board quest, and you get them commonly in thieves' troves, I carry at least 20 at all times, or you can pay your bounty by running into the nearest guard or fence before it gets high.

    Explain to me how that can be exploited and poor widdle pve players would get preyed upon.

    Before you say "they'll camp the outlaw refuge entrance" .. each refuge has multiple entrances and again, you can see them, even in stealth, you can also go to ANY outlaw refuge they can't be at them all every entrance.

    I very rarely PVP, and I hate open world PVP systems that are like TERA's where a griefer can just flag themselves and kill players in 1 hit that are way under their level.

    That is WHY I support the proposed Justice system they had going some time ago, because it was creative, it fit into the lore, it could be RP'ed, and it was voluntary.

    What you or I think doesn't matter, ZOS devs have used their brains, and decided that mixing OWPvP with a largely PvE environment wasn't going to work, and I agree with them. Now, what does that suggest to you?

    For my part, PvE crimes should have PvE consequences, and they already do, so until ZOS wants to change things, their definition of complete is the one that matters and stands, end of story there.

    PvPers should strop trying to overreach, stop trying to drag PvEers into their web of patently unfair gameplay; even if One Tamriel tried to bring in PvP for that system, thereby necessitating a name change to "Injustice System", it would be massively unbalanced, just like all PvP in all games that have it.

    PvP=/=a fair fight, ever.

    Back to One Tamriel, I'm still concerned about how we'll be scaled after leaving the Wailing Prison. It's crazy difficult to take on enemies in the battle-leveled zones, when you're wearing Soul Shriven clothes or even a basic white armour set of your choice and white quality weapons, assuming that scaling in all other zones happens in exactly the same way as with Orsinium and the like, with all enemies everywhere being levelled to CP160, and players scaled to CP150. I mean, by then, most'd have purple gear, champion points, inherent traits and set bonuses, and an encyclopedic knowledge of the game. How many new players will have these things? Not one... Surely, it'd have to be similar to how swtor does it, with no-one being much higher than a zone's max level enemy, otherwise new players would have no reason to play, as they'd be unable to beat anything. Since I have no information to the contrary, I fear that the scaling system may not be new player-friendly, as is so with Wrothgar, Hew's Bane and the Gold Coast, unless ZOS would care to clarify things.
    Edited by sentientomega on June 20, 2016 3:22PM
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Because Paul Sage left, that's the real reason the Justice System isn't being completed. That was one of his projects. He's gone, nobody picked up finishing the Justice System as a project so it was indefinitely suspended, but they haven't said it will NEVER happen. It's just not something they're currently working on.
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
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    Arato wrote: »
    BTW for those of you so stuck on levels being the only system of character progression, might I recommend Overwatch? It has xp and levels, infinite levels at that. You can gain levels forever, that means infinite progression right?

    .... except the levels are meaningless, there is no progression.

    But it has levels!

    Levels means progression right?!?!?!

    I happen to love The Elder Scrolls. I bought this game not because its an MMO (although I have come to love the MMO aspect of it) but because it was an Elder Scrolls game.
    Why should loyal TES fans like myself have our game nerfed and messed up by casual players who hate using their brains in a game and just want an easy button-masher? Why shouldn't you be the one to go and play the type of game you enjoy? Many games like that ALREADY EXIST. Why should the game I love and enjoy AS IT IS have my game changed for someone who is always complaining about the game the way it came out originally? Why should the game be changed to something completely different to what it started out as and got voted for best MMO, why should that be changed for the whiners and whingers? Why can the loyal fan base who enjoy challenge and progression and rewards and choices, why shouldn't they also be catered to? Is my money not as good as yours?
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Arato wrote: »
    BTW for those of you so stuck on levels being the only system of character progression, might I recommend Overwatch? It has xp and levels, infinite levels at that. You can gain levels forever, that means infinite progression right?

    .... except the levels are meaningless, there is no progression.

    But it has levels!

    Levels means progression right?!?!?!

    I happen to love The Elder Scrolls. I bought this game not because its an MMO (although I have come to love the MMO aspect of it) but because it was an Elder Scrolls game.
    Why should loyal TES fans like myself have our game nerfed and messed up by casual players who hate using their brains in a game and just want an easy button-masher? Why shouldn't you be the one to go and play the type of game you enjoy? Many games like that ALREADY EXIST. Why should the game I love and enjoy AS IT IS have my game changed for someone who is always complaining about the game the way it came out originally? Why should the game be changed to something completely different to what it started out as and got voted for best MMO, why should that be changed for the whiners and whingers? Why can the loyal fan base who enjoy challenge and progression and rewards and choices, why shouldn't they also be catered to? Is my money not as good as yours?

    Nothing I've said is making it a casual button masher. What I've suggested is actually more complex and brainy than what we currently have because you don't have 1 easy number to tell if you can take an enemy or not.

    Instead of having 1 character level I'm suggesting more of a dependency on individual skill lines, so you'd have multiple levels.

    My Nightblade alt that I've been playing lately is currently level 35 under the current system so I can use level 34 gear.

    Under the system I want, she has a medium armor level of 44, a bow level of 42, but a 2h weapon of 31

    That would mean I could use medium armor made from thick leather (level 44), and a Hickory bow (level 42), but could only use an Orichalcum Greatsword (level 30), because I haven't been leveling that as efficiently and have been using my bow more often. If I were to suddenly want to use dual wielded weapons, I'd be in for a real "treat" because that skill is at 6, I'd only be able to use iron 1h weapons, so I'd be much less capable than I currently am with a 2h much less a bow. It's actually more complex, not less.

    Any 6 year old can grind mobs in a circle and get xp and a higher character level, it doesn't take intelligence, it only takes not being so freaking bored that you just want to log out apply sandpaper to your eyeballs just so you don't have to see yourself running in circles grinding anymore. The more interesting progression is skill lines and skills, because those only progress based on use.

    Not to mention, it's more like the actual TES single player games, because like I said, level means very little in TES single player games aside from scaling up enemies. At the very least, character level should have 0 effect in combat, instead of the way it is now which is more like NON TES games instead of a TES game.
    Edited by Arato on June 20, 2016 3:23PM
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
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    Now, I get that he is not a game designer, and so I do not take his lack of understanding as to why someone would need a full range of mats with much alarm. I do expect the game designers to understand and take this into account. However, the debacle with Potency runes indicates they are not making a game with an interesting crafting economy; rather a game for solitary players who only craft for themselves. Not sure why.

    How can they account for it, though? Without the lanes of "silver" and "gold," you really can't have a third option of "zone." I guess you could keep the zones to their current non-vet materials, but then the "vet level" materials would not have a way to be collected based on zone. Since we don't have the normal, silver, gold zone segregation, I don't know how you can arrange harvesting by anything other than crafting skill or character level.

    I am not a big fan of this change at all. People collect materials to sell or craft for others. Alchemical water makes me a lot of money at guild traders. If all zones work like the current DLC zones, I won't be able to gather any of the stuff I sell without spending skill points.

    Yes, this. ^^
    ZOS's "battle scaling technology" is not as cool as they seem to think it is. As it is, its already hard enough to get hold of the top-tier mats. I struggle like mad to get hold of Lorkhan's tears, because even Craglorn drops only cloud mist, and I have only one lvl 50 alchemist (whom I don't play with anymore - she's my crafter now) who has to go in search for water in the DLC, because those are the only places I can get it. So, I have to use a toon I don't enjoy playing with to go specially on mats farming trips. I can't just gather the mats as I go along with my main in the DLC, bec, for example, my main does not have lvl 50 alchemy.
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
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    Arato wrote: »
    ...and if you battle level everything, and remove all player choices, how is it dependent on character skill as opposed to player skill?

    Go into Cyrodiil with 0 skill points, 0 champion points level 1 gear, and your skill lines are all level 1.

    Tell me how well you do.

    You're battle leveled, so you should just be tearing stuff up right?

    Turns out, having skills, having better quality gear, having skill lines leveled up so you get the benefits of passives, and having champion points makes your character quite a bit more powerful.

    Now go play overwatch where you can have "infinite progression" since you seem to think character level is the only way you can progress.

    I'll expand on this in an example I'm experiencing right now.

    My level 50 DK, who's trained up as a tank ever since I started him, is LOUSY at thieves guild and dark brotherhood quests, he's just not good at that not getting caught thing at all. I mean his character level is capped and he's got tons of xp in the game.... but he has low skill in medium armor, low legerdeman skill, a low thieve's guild and dark brotherhood rank, and hasn't put points into the thief constellation to help sneak. Sneaking costs its full stamina amount, and I fail pickpocketing on drunk, sleeping beggars, even when I wait for the green number on my success chance (the player skill aspect of pickpocketing)

    Now my level 29 nightblade, that wears full medium armor, is much more further along on the legerdeman, and can steal from beggars and drunks and laborers and the like with 95% success rate, and finds it a lot easier to avoid being seen picking locks and lockboxes and stealing from containers.

    Why is my higher level DK so much worse at stealing than my lower level Nightblade if character level is the end all and be all of character progression?

    You're totally missing the point - in fact, you are actually strengthening my contention that one DOES need a progression system and player choices to make the game feel rewarding. ;)
    From your examples, I'm guessing you don't do a lot of dungeons like Undaunted and trials like Dragonstar Arena, where being able to sustain resources is important and where your choices in base attributes are indeed meaningful.
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
    ✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    BTW for those of you so stuck on levels being the only system of character progression, might I recommend Overwatch? It has xp and levels, infinite levels at that. You can gain levels forever, that means infinite progression right?

    .... except the levels are meaningless, there is no progression.

    But it has levels!

    Levels means progression right?!?!?!

    I happen to love The Elder Scrolls. I bought this game not because its an MMO (although I have come to love the MMO aspect of it) but because it was an Elder Scrolls game.
    Why should loyal TES fans like myself have our game nerfed and messed up by casual players who hate using their brains in a game and just want an easy button-masher? Why shouldn't you be the one to go and play the type of game you enjoy? Many games like that ALREADY EXIST. Why should the game I love and enjoy AS IT IS have my game changed for someone who is always complaining about the game the way it came out originally? Why should the game be changed to something completely different to what it started out as and got voted for best MMO, why should that be changed for the whiners and whingers? Why can the loyal fan base who enjoy challenge and progression and rewards and choices, why shouldn't they also be catered to? Is my money not as good as yours?

    Nothing I've said is making it a casual button masher. What I've suggested is actually more complex and brainy than what we currently have because you don't have 1 easy number to tell if you can take an enemy or not.

    Instead of having 1 character level I'm suggesting more of a dependency on individual skill lines, so you'd have multiple levels.

    My Nightblade alt that I've been playing lately is currently level 35 under the current system so I can use level 34 gear.

    Under the system I want, she has a medium armor level of 44, a bow level of 42, but a 2h weapon of 31

    That would mean I could use medium armor made from thick leather (level 44), and a Hickory bow (level 42), but could only use an Orichalcum Greatsword (level 30), because I haven't been leveling that as efficiently and have been using my bow more often. If I were to suddenly want to use dual wielded weapons, I'd be in for a real "treat" because that skill is at 6, I'd only be able to use iron 1h weapons, so I'd be much less capable than I currently am with a 2h much less a bow. It's actually more complex, not less.

    Any 6 year old can grind mobs in a circle and get xp and a higher character level, it doesn't take intelligence, it only takes not being so freaking bored that you just want to log out apply sandpaper to your eyeballs just so you don't have to see yourself running in circles grinding anymore. The more interesting progression is skill lines and skills, because those only progress based on use.

    The game already has that as things currently are. <_<
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
    ✭✭✭
    Bethesda/Zenimax, whoever does your marketing - I think you need to sit down and think what you'd like your image out there in the gaming world to be like.
    Do you want to be seen as ruthless money-grabbers who don't care a whit about their loyal, long-term fan base, but instead is just out to make a quick buck out of the casual (who will bring them in some fast cash on the initial purchase but won't stay long to actually play the game full-out and spend money on subs/cown store purchases), or do you want to be seen as a company that cares for its long-term, loyal fan base?
    ...because if it is the former, soon you won't have such a thing as a long-term, loyal fan base anymore. :(
  • AleriSadasIndoril
    AleriSadasIndoril
    ✭✭✭


    This is what I want ! Thanks Zenimax !!!


    Aleri Sadas Indoril: - Sorcerer - Dunmer- Ebonheart Pact
    Aléri Sadas Indoril: - Templar -Dunmer- Ebonheart Pact
    Valérie Sadas Indoril: - Templar - Dunmer- Daggerfall Covenant
    Valérie Colomba: - Dragonknight - Redguard- Daggerfall Covenant
    S'sháni: - Nightblade - Khajiit - Aldmeri Dominion
    Shánij: - Templar - Khajiit - Aldmeri Dominion - Werewolf (immer einen Biss frei)
    Valéri Indoril - Templar - Dunmer - Aldmeri Dominion
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    Because Paul Sage left, that's the real reason the Justice System isn't being completed. That was one of his projects. He's gone, nobody picked up finishing the Justice System as a project so it was indefinitely suspended, but they haven't said it will NEVER happen. It's just not something they're currently working on.

    Actually, if I recall correctly, this is one of only two things they have shut the door on. Now, granted, they can change their mind, but I don't see that they need to, given the prominence of vacationers in the player base. These players are more likely to be interested in PVE than PVP while they are here.




    2022: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
    • "Tamriel One was fun and engaging, Tamriel Once .... not so much." - Jaraal, March 9, 2022
    • "Stop treating the combat in this game as some sort of lab experiment." - code65536, July 18, 2022
    • PSA: If anyone finds the Update 35 Q&A, please return it to the community staff. Thank you.
    ><)))*>
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    One Tamriel doesn't really fit story wise. The premise of the entire game is faction-based. By eliminating that, the quests make no sense. You need to add some kind of randomness to quests so that they change. That's the overhaul you should arrive for. I think your planned approach to make the game more like a sandbox will result the same way as racial passives did when soft caps were removed: they were incredibly imbalanced because the initial game was designed around soft caps. Essentially, you designed this entire game around factions. Now you want to remove factions but not really remove them? It seems like a good idea, but I just think it has a high likelihood of seeming out of place with the overall game and story design.
  • wesly.backersb16_ESO
    This is great news! Thanks Zeni!
    I was a bit bored to do the quests in an ordered way with 'Lands' based on specific level; Now there will be freedom of moving throughout Tamriel and playing!
    Edited by wesly.backersb16_ESO on June 20, 2016 2:54PM
  • Arato
    Arato
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    ...and if you battle level everything, and remove all player choices, how is it dependent on character skill as opposed to player skill?

    Go into Cyrodiil with 0 skill points, 0 champion points level 1 gear, and your skill lines are all level 1.

    Tell me how well you do.

    You're battle leveled, so you should just be tearing stuff up right?

    Turns out, having skills, having better quality gear, having skill lines leveled up so you get the benefits of passives, and having champion points makes your character quite a bit more powerful.

    Now go play overwatch where you can have "infinite progression" since you seem to think character level is the only way you can progress.

    I'll expand on this in an example I'm experiencing right now.

    My level 50 DK, who's trained up as a tank ever since I started him, is LOUSY at thieves guild and dark brotherhood quests, he's just not good at that not getting caught thing at all. I mean his character level is capped and he's got tons of xp in the game.... but he has low skill in medium armor, low legerdeman skill, a low thieve's guild and dark brotherhood rank, and hasn't put points into the thief constellation to help sneak. Sneaking costs its full stamina amount, and I fail pickpocketing on drunk, sleeping beggars, even when I wait for the green number on my success chance (the player skill aspect of pickpocketing)

    Now my level 29 nightblade, that wears full medium armor, is much more further along on the legerdeman, and can steal from beggars and drunks and laborers and the like with 95% success rate, and finds it a lot easier to avoid being seen picking locks and lockboxes and stealing from containers.

    Why is my higher level DK so much worse at stealing than my lower level Nightblade if character level is the end all and be all of character progression?

    You're totally missing the point - in fact, you are actually strengthening my contention that one DOES need a progression system and player choices to make the game feel rewarding. ;)
    From your examples, I'm guessing you don't do a lot of dungeons like Undaunted and trials like Dragonstar Arena, where being able to sustain resources is important and where your choices in base attributes are indeed meaningful.

    No, YOU'RE missing the point.

    The Skill lines ARE PROGRESSION SYSTEMS.

    I really really really want to tell you how it is but ZOS would edit it out for insulting you, so take that hint, but character level != progression. You just don't get it. Congratulations, you and a 6 year old running around in circles grinding mobs are on the same level.
  • Arato
    Arato
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    Arato wrote: »
    BTW for those of you so stuck on levels being the only system of character progression, might I recommend Overwatch? It has xp and levels, infinite levels at that. You can gain levels forever, that means infinite progression right?

    .... except the levels are meaningless, there is no progression.

    But it has levels!

    Levels means progression right?!?!?!

    I happen to love The Elder Scrolls. I bought this game not because its an MMO (although I have come to love the MMO aspect of it) but because it was an Elder Scrolls game.
    Why should loyal TES fans like myself have our game nerfed and messed up by casual players who hate using their brains in a game and just want an easy button-masher? Why shouldn't you be the one to go and play the type of game you enjoy? Many games like that ALREADY EXIST. Why should the game I love and enjoy AS IT IS have my game changed for someone who is always complaining about the game the way it came out originally? Why should the game be changed to something completely different to what it started out as and got voted for best MMO, why should that be changed for the whiners and whingers? Why can the loyal fan base who enjoy challenge and progression and rewards and choices, why shouldn't they also be catered to? Is my money not as good as yours?

    Nothing I've said is making it a casual button masher. What I've suggested is actually more complex and brainy than what we currently have because you don't have 1 easy number to tell if you can take an enemy or not.

    Instead of having 1 character level I'm suggesting more of a dependency on individual skill lines, so you'd have multiple levels.

    My Nightblade alt that I've been playing lately is currently level 35 under the current system so I can use level 34 gear.

    Under the system I want, she has a medium armor level of 44, a bow level of 42, but a 2h weapon of 31

    That would mean I could use medium armor made from thick leather (level 44), and a Hickory bow (level 42), but could only use an Orichalcum Greatsword (level 30), because I haven't been leveling that as efficiently and have been using my bow more often. If I were to suddenly want to use dual wielded weapons, I'd be in for a real "treat" because that skill is at 6, I'd only be able to use iron 1h weapons, so I'd be much less capable than I currently am with a 2h much less a bow. It's actually more complex, not less.

    Any 6 year old can grind mobs in a circle and get xp and a higher character level, it doesn't take intelligence, it only takes not being so freaking bored that you just want to log out apply sandpaper to your eyeballs just so you don't have to see yourself running in circles grinding anymore. The more interesting progression is skill lines and skills, because those only progress based on use.

    The game already has that as things currently are. <_<

    It does, but I'm suggesting that gear and combat efficacy are dependent on them instead of on a character level.

    If anything all character level should do is give you an attribute point(s), skill point(s) and racial passives.

    I don't see why my character who's never used a restoration staff before should be able to use a top tier one his first time wielding one.
  • Vivecc
    Vivecc
    ✭✭✭
    I don't see why my character who's never used a restoration staff before should be able to use a top tier one his first time wielding one.

    Do you need to be of a certain age to wear a t- shirt ? there you go.....

    As much as i like the general idea of being able to freely explore the world - the original design was a different one. Three factions wage war against each other and you are caught in between. With silver /gold zones we were able to explore the other factions areas. And yes, going with a eg. lvl20 char into a lvl40 zone was a risk. All this was your (ZOS) decision to make the game. I have the feeling you just listen too much to the ever- complaining crowd of underaged players who wants everything fast and easy and therefore gets bored even faster.
    The game is (imo) way too easy. there were too many nerfs on like everything. And ofc increased xp on top of it
    And whith the battleleveling any newly created char will most likely have more ressources at his disposal to fight a cp160 mob than any real cp160 char. And forget about that he only uses 1 or 2 skills, thats enough. That is ridiculous and battleleveling needs adjustment.
    The pvp idea of a three banners war was softened up by letting ppl play diffrent faction chars on the same campaigns.
    And with one Tamriel you remove the last separation between the factions.... oh its only for the players...they are somewhat "neutral". I say the npc´s give a damn about this. Its the players that get the impression and the feeling and the suspense. Dont take it away. Or on the other hand then remove the cyrodiil 3 banners war, and make it a big battleground , round duration 7- 30 days....oh wait we already have that

    As a conclusion i fear that this idea will actually destroy more of the "game - feeling" than benefits our experience in Tamriel
    pc/eu
  • Arato
    Arato
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    the age/tshirt analogy is not even close.

    age is more like your character level.

    the current system makes it so that if you're a certain age, not only can you wear a t-shirt, but you can wear full ballistic bomb squad armor, despite never having been trained in its proper usage.

    Or more applicable, you can operate a fighter jet, just because you're 50 years old, it doesn't matter that you never learned to fly a cessna, or a simulator, just let me take this F-22 raptor off, I know what I'm doing!

    What I'm suggesting is that what plane you can fly is dependent on your piloting skill not your age.

    TheTraveler and ZOS have this backwards notion that your age should determine it.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
    ✭✭✭
    Vivecc wrote: »
    I don't see why my character who's never used a restoration staff before should be able to use a top tier one his first time wielding one.

    Do you need to be of a certain age to wear a t- shirt ? there you go.....

    As much as i like the general idea of being able to freely explore the world - the original design was a different one. Three factions wage war against each other and you are caught in between. With silver /gold zones we were able to explore the other factions areas. And yes, going with a eg. lvl20 char into a lvl40 zone was a risk. All this was your (ZOS) decision to make the game. I have the feeling you just listen too much to the ever- complaining crowd of underaged players who wants everything fast and easy and therefore gets bored even faster.
    The game is (imo) way too easy. there were too many nerfs on like everything. And ofc increased xp on top of it
    And whith the battleleveling any newly created char will most likely have more ressources at his disposal to fight a cp160 mob than any real cp160 char. And forget about that he only uses 1 or 2 skills, thats enough. That is ridiculous and battleleveling needs adjustment.
    The pvp idea of a three banners war was softened up by letting ppl play diffrent faction chars on the same campaigns.
    And with one Tamriel you remove the last separation between the factions.... oh its only for the players...they are somewhat "neutral". I say the npc´s give a damn about this. Its the players that get the impression and the feeling and the suspense. Dont take it away. Or on the other hand then remove the cyrodiil 3 banners war, and make it a big battleground , round duration 7- 30 days....oh wait we already have that

    As a conclusion i fear that this idea will actually destroy more of the "game - feeling" than benefits our experience in Tamriel

    I beg to differ and could not possibly do so more strongly, this game is not way too easy for me, as any number of players seem to want to make sure is hammer into our heads. I know that many people may well accusing me of trolling and thereby trying to create a monopoly on the legitimacy of a certain opinion, based solely on the fact that it differs from their experiences, but for my part, this game I do NOT find that easy. The battle-levelled zones, ESPECIALLY hard. And perhaps I'm not the only one...

    Only, when heavy attacks with a purple greatsword on average difficulty enemies in Wrothgar do absolutely piddling amounts of damage, and they take anywhere from 3-5 uppercuts from full health to drop dead (again, average difficulty enemies you get in twos or threes), I do have to wonder about the efficacy of battle-levelling. It does seem to be inhospitable to the new player...

    I was also wearing white armour on that character, but then so is a brand new player, are they not?

    I have no reason to lie about my experiences in ESO combat, so please refrain from accusing me of trolling; I expect that there are things to be done to make it easier for myself, things to which a new player does NOT have access.
    Edited by sentientomega on June 20, 2016 7:49PM
  • stypsyb14_ESO
    stypsyb14_ESO
    ✭✭
    k9mouse wrote: »
    Why nerf everything ZOS ? At least u can do it like RIFT online. Or like a mentoring system.

    @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

    I like how RIFT does it, I can set my own level in a given zone. When I played the max level was 60 and I go to a zone that is 20. I could set my level to 30 or , 28, 10 or keep it at max level -- any level I want to -- level 1 to my char's max level.

    If I want to running around and one shot everything (and get no rewards for doing that) I could. If I want play at the zone's max level (in my example it will be level 20) I could. I want it to be a challenge, I can set myself way below the zone's max like level 5 or 10. I would love to see a like system in ESO.

    I totally forgot about that feature in RIFT. Agree with Jessica, let us be able to /changecharacterlevel !
    Edited by stypsyb14_ESO on June 20, 2016 9:16PM
  • Arato
    Arato
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vivecc wrote: »
    I don't see why my character who's never used a restoration staff before should be able to use a top tier one his first time wielding one.

    Do you need to be of a certain age to wear a t- shirt ? there you go.....

    As much as i like the general idea of being able to freely explore the world - the original design was a different one. Three factions wage war against each other and you are caught in between. With silver /gold zones we were able to explore the other factions areas. And yes, going with a eg. lvl20 char into a lvl40 zone was a risk. All this was your (ZOS) decision to make the game. I have the feeling you just listen too much to the ever- complaining crowd of underaged players who wants everything fast and easy and therefore gets bored even faster.
    The game is (imo) way too easy. there were too many nerfs on like everything. And ofc increased xp on top of it
    And whith the battleleveling any newly created char will most likely have more ressources at his disposal to fight a cp160 mob than any real cp160 char. And forget about that he only uses 1 or 2 skills, thats enough. That is ridiculous and battleleveling needs adjustment.
    The pvp idea of a three banners war was softened up by letting ppl play diffrent faction chars on the same campaigns.
    And with one Tamriel you remove the last separation between the factions.... oh its only for the players...they are somewhat "neutral". I say the npc´s give a damn about this. Its the players that get the impression and the feeling and the suspense. Dont take it away. Or on the other hand then remove the cyrodiil 3 banners war, and make it a big battleground , round duration 7- 30 days....oh wait we already have that

    As a conclusion i fear that this idea will actually destroy more of the "game - feeling" than benefits our experience in Tamriel

    I beg to differ and could not possibly do so more strongly, this game is not way too easy for me, as any number of players seem to want to make sure is hammer into our heads. I know that many people may well accusing me of trolling and thereby trying to create a monopoly on the legitimacy of a certain opinion, based solely on the fact that it differs from their experiences, but for my part, this game I do NOT find that easy. The battle-levelled zones, ESPECIALLY hard. And perhaps I'm not the only one...

    Only, when heavy attacks with a purple greatsword on average difficulty enemies in Wrothgar do absolutely piddling amounts of damage, and they take anywhere from 3-5 uppercuts from full health to drop dead (again, average difficulty enemies you get in twos or threes), I do have to wonder about the efficacy of battle-levelling. It does seem to be inhospitable to the new player...

    I was also wearing white armour on that character, but then so is a brand new player, are they not?

    I have no reason to lie about my experiences in ESO combat, so please refrain from accusing me of trolling; I expect that there are things to be done to make it easier for myself, things to which a new player does NOT have access.

    Battle leveling gives you the health/stam/magicka boosts of having a higher level and it will scale your armor and other stats. However when you fight things your level is still considered what it actually is, so for calculations like crit rates, you crit less often and do less damage I think.
  • sentientomega
    sentientomega
    ✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    Battle leveling gives you the health/stam/magicka boosts of having a higher level and it will scale your armor and other stats. However when you fight things your level is still considered what it actually is, so for calculations like crit rates, you crit less often and do less damage I think.

    I was beginning to get that impression, because I've seen higher levels hit harder with whatever in these zones.

    Which is why I desperately hope that ZOS takes all that into account with their One Tamriel scaling, so that very new players, and relatively newer players like me aren't left behind. Presumably they know that anyone with a level 17 character in lvl 14 white armour with a lvl 14 purple greatsword isn't going to have it easy, even with battle-levelling.

    I really hope they don't forget that combat at level 3 is VASTLY different to combat at CP150-160, the chances are at level three that you don't have all purple/yellow gear, set bonuses, inherent traits, CPs, if you're a new player. Since vets will most likely have all those things and more, especially at max level, I can see how combat at that level would feel just like a newbie in the Wailing Prison.

    I need to know that my combat experience isn't going to suffer as a result of One Tamriel, I REALLY hope ZOS doesn't continue to make the battle-levelling seemingly insurmountable. I mean, you're in the Wailing Prison, and then you end up in a battle-levelled starter zone. There's going to be a MASSIVE difference in combat experience between those two zones, if all other zones are to be DLC-zone-scaled, don't tell me that someone fresh from the Wailing Prison won't notice the huge difference in fighting CP160s scaled up than fighting level 3/4s at their low level.

    In fact, someone else has already raised my concern here: http://esoacademy.com/news/one-tamriel-right-move/

    Look for Darth Akatosh's reply to one Paul's comment, and you can see the potential for disaster.

    I know whereof I and they speak, grinding regular mobs should not be in any way palpitation-inducing trial.

    And so, a difficulty slider (player-based stat adjustment or something like that) would really help here; people complaining about ease of difficulty would have a viable solution if that's what they really want, and so would I.

    If a difficulty slider is out of the question, I just hope the ZOS devs know what they're doing here, because One Tamriel sounds really great otherwise.
    Edited by sentientomega on June 21, 2016 6:40AM
  • TheTraveler
    TheTraveler
    ✭✭✭
    Arato wrote: »
    the age/tshirt analogy is not even close.

    age is more like your character level.

    the current system makes it so that if you're a certain age, not only can you wear a t-shirt, but you can wear full ballistic bomb squad armor, despite never having been trained in its proper usage.

    Or more applicable, you can operate a fighter jet, just because you're 50 years old, it doesn't matter that you never learned to fly a cessna, or a simulator, just let me take this F-22 raptor off, I know what I'm doing!

    What I'm suggesting is that what plane you can fly is dependent on your piloting skill not your age.

    TheTraveler and ZOS have this backwards notion that your age should determine it.

    What are you talking about? Even if I am, in the current game, CP501, but have never weilded a destro staff, my destro staff ability will be zero, and I will not have a single skill in it. I have to actually start using it to gradually build up a skill line in it. Sounds to me as if you don't even know the current game mechanics, but you are very verbose in your criticism of it.
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