Nirnhoned, Precise and Sharpened

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

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hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

That is misleading....for a stam build to get 17k pen you need to run sunderflame. It gives the group 6.78% increased damage. Assuming BiS group with 8 members pulling 35k each, group DPS is 280k. a 6.78 % increase would be around 19k dps. If some poor lad has to wear this crap to add 19k dps to the group he wont be pulling 35k... he would be lucky to break 25, most like barely scratching 20k...so you are gaining 19k but losing around 15k....a 4k dps gain for the group and one person has to heavy attack every 8 seconds and wear subpar gear to provide this, why would you want to torture your team mate so much? This is with a perfectly tuned group that stays together by the way. What about second boss of vMoL where the group is separate? Would would they do then?

Furthermore, you and I both ran with CSH core - top NA guild. I dont know how it was in your runs but in my runs Alkosh uptime was nowhere near 100% and without it being up for 100% sharpened is uncontested. However even with Alkosh up, sharpened provides 7.7% dps gain on bosses. I cant imagine a scenario where precise would even come close to this number.

For magicka builds it is a bit different. With Alkosh up your sharpened weapon gives you around 3% dps gain, where is without Alkosh up, you gain around 9.1%. Precise boosts DPS by anywhere between 3.6% (worst case) to 4.7% (best case). So for a magicka build with 100% alkosh uptime you would only gain around 1.7% dps at most from precise versus sharpened. Now since as we both are aware, it is unlikely that Alkosh will be up on target 100% of the time, I would much rather get a guaranteed 9.1% dps gain with a a occasional 1.7% dps loss than a potential 1.7% dps gain and a frequent 4+% dps loss.

TLDR Sharpened is BiS

Sunderflame is a ~600 stamina and 8 weapon damage (both after amps) deficit by being v14 instead of v16, it loses very little stats when you compare it to say a gold v16 NMG setup. It also synergizes extremely well with a stamina DK using Molten Armaments and Spawn of Mephala.

35k is also very low for end game in the current patch, most properly functioning stamina builds are now breaking 40k with ease. I'm not sure how you got your numbers for the wearer apparently losing 4k DPS, but you should probably go try it before you just make up nonsensical numbers. There are obvious disadvantages that would need to be played around like twins, but you also wouldn't be using it since that fight is heavily AoE based as to single target.

Not to put you down, but you are not in core runs, and while Alkosh is not exactly 100%, it is at a high enough rate to out perform Sharpened from the testing I've gathered. Rakkhat has 18600 Physical Resit, reduced by the following;
-5280 Major Fracture
-1320 Minor Fracture
-2580 NMG
-1920 Infused Crusher
-2107 (70% up time Alkosh)
-3360 Sunder
-100 base
= -16667
leaves 1993 Phys resist, or 3.866% DPS to be gained from Sharpened . This also assumes you have no points put into Piercing Strikes, which is usually not the case.

Meanwhile end game stam builds run anywhere from 123% to 134% CHD in raid (223/234 with base 1 added), which multiplied by .075 (7.5% crit) is 9.225%-10.05% increase, which loses a little bit due to the remaining 1993 Phys Resist, which comes to a 8.857%-9.649% DPS boost.

Haha Gil you're funny.
1.A DK won't be running sunder flame, more like Morag or Toxic Defiance.
2. 40k on a fight with mechanics is not common Gil. Ive ran withcore I have a dps meter woth share enabled;)
3. I have no points into physical pen *no need with sharpened)
4. Then there is your crazy crit analysis. Where on earthe are you getting your numbers? Let's take a look at a stamplar 50 base, 12 trap, 10 Piercing Spear, 18.3 shadow, 8 % From CP. Total is 98.3. I'm assuming you're factoring in major force? Again I have yet to see major force be up every 9.5 seconds, but I'll be generous and say you have it up 20 put of every 30 seconds. This means a 1.2 multiplier. 1.2 x 98.3 = 118. Now that's on a templar with a passive modifier so a very crit favoring scenario. Now with endgame sets that stamplar is likely running anywhere fron 64.4 to 72.4 crit chance depending on race. Let's again assume a precise favoring scenario of him running 64.4 % crit chance. At 64.4% crit chance chance and 118% crit damage modifier you will average 1.76 times base damage. Now let's say we put on a precise staff. This puts us at 71.4% crit, or 1.84 times base damage. A 4.5% damage difference. Not sure how you are doing your math.
5. On a Stam build especially precise is weaker than it is on a magicka build due to lower crit damage modifier (more points in Thaumaturge since most are dot builds means less points in precise strikes) and higher average crit. This diminishes the importance of increasing crit chance. On a magicka build precise plays a much more important role, since the average magicka crit is lower than stam and the access to crit damage modifiers is higher.
6. Finally as for me not being in core runs that's just cute Gil...

1. That's the beauty, Morag benefits the entire group, the same as Sunderflame. Toxic Defiance is also a joke, try putting it together and you'll see it's extremely small in terms of overall DPS.
2. It wasn't last patch, although we had 2 people break 40k last patch on the final boss which is the most hectic fight in there.
3. Even with 1 sharpened weapon (2580) you're still over penetrating most mobs (except Boss mobs wearing Heavy Armor, which is extremely rare) with 0 points into Piercing with a proper composition. I'd certainly hope you don't have any points in it.
4. .5 Base, .1 NB or Templar passive, .12 Minor Force, .183 7/7 gold Divines with Shadow Mundus, ~.1 from Precise, which can be more or less depending on CP allocation. = 1.003 x (1.30) major force; 1.3039, which is rounded down to 130% (230% with base). Major Force in my experience with core CSH is 98.6% up time.
5. I'm not even going to get into it with you on this again, I still remember our previous discussion. Let's agree to disagree, I have numbers that prove otherwise for my parses, and you must have something that shows you differently as well.
6. Looking at the leaderboard for vMoL, you are on a younger and lower listed score, meaning you were not apart of the progression core team. I'm not trying to belittle you man, I'm just saying that your references are not applicable to mine as the runs I participate in have much more focus and overall min/maxing going on.

Perhaps you'd like to compare a parse of your Sharpened vs my Precise with the same gear and CP, and see which is higher?

1. And morag is what I would run. If I heavy attack every 8 seconds I won't pull even 30k dps with my DK
2. I'll agree to disagree.
3. The score I got was with the same group composition that curently holds the number 1 spot NA. They subbed me in for Streak One and there was one more fill in besides me who is now core....this was 2 weeks ago so no it was the same core people, maybe a bad night for em, but same group buffs were present.
3. Major force in every experience that I have had was not even close to 90%. As a matter of fact warhorn over all wasn't even 100% when I looked over my parses.
4. I'd love to compare parses I have a stam DK and a stamplar, which one would you like to test?
5. I will agree that you have your own way of running things, but here is what I have found from running with good groups, bad groups, terrible groups and fantastic groups - consistent 100% dps is much preferable to inconsistent 105-110% dps.

Nifty2g · June 2016

It seems this event was postponed

Really good info I have golded Sharpened and Precise, so let me know which one I should be using ... is there a conclusion?

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

It seems this event was postponed

Really good info I have golded Sharpened and Precise, so let me know which one I should be using ... is there a conclusion?

I hate you....I want that sharpend staff....give it to me..I'll give you both of my Precise ones for it!

Neoauspex · June 2016

This thread made my work day flyyyy by

ycodryn · June 2016

If sharpened is best trait for now, what weapon enchantment can be used to maximise dps on pve? Absorb magicka or weapon damage? Or neither ?

DannyLV702 · June 2016

I thought these were the English forums!!! I understand nothing!!!

Asayre · June 2016

@ycodryn
The weapon damage one.

Edit: Moving this to Combat & Character Mechanics

ycodryn · June 2016

@Asayre
Thank you, now is crafting time

)

Bouldercleave · June 2016

This thread has made me realize that I don't take this game very seriously at all...

Same reason Tiger Woods is better at golf than me.

phaneub17_ESO · June 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@ycodryn
The weapon damage one.

Edit: Moving this to Combat & Character Mechanics

How do you have that kind of power!!

code65536 · June 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asayre wrote: »

@ycodryn
The weapon damage one.

Edit: Moving this to Combat & Character Mechanics

How do you have that kind of power!!

He created this thread. Thread starters can always relocate their own threads.

Gargath · June 2016

I should not read this thread, now I regret paying 20k for nirnhoned stone for my new bow

.
And it seems now that this ridiculous market price has basically no real explanation if better results gives a trait valued 19,99k less.

phaneub17_ESO · June 2016

Gargath wrote: »

I should not read this thread, now I regret paying 20k for nirnhoned stone for my new bow .
And it seems now that this ridiculous market price has basically no real explanation if better results gives a trait valued 19,99k less.

The cost of Nirnhoned weapons and armor are not likely to go down even with this information. It's still a profitable trait being hard to obtain and required if you ever want to craft a 9-trait set like Twice Born Star.

code65536 · August 2016

For dual-wielding on a stamina character, I currently have the following two options:

Precise + Sharpened
Nirnhoned + Sharpened

(Unfortunately, Sharpened + Sharpened is not an option for me.)

As a 1H weapon, Precise in this case would be at half potency--it'll grant me just 3.5% extra crit chance. But a single Nirnhoned weapon, if I wield it in the main hand--would grant me the "full" 146 base weapon damage (before amps from medium armor, Major Brutality, etc.).

So I think I should go with Nirnhoned+Sharpened instead of Precise+Sharpened. Is this assessment correct, @Asayre?

Waffennacht · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

For dual-wielding on a stamina character, I currently have the following two options:
Precise + Sharpened

Nirnhoned + Sharpened

(Unfortunately, Sharpened + Sharpened is not an option for me.)

As a 1H weapon, Precise in this case would be at half potency--it'll grant me just 3.5% extra crit chance. But a single Nirnhoned weapon, if I wield it in the main hand--would grant me the "full" 146 base weapon damage (before amps from medium armor, Major Brutality, etc.).

So I think I should go with Nirnhoned+Sharpened instead of Precise+Sharpened. Is this assessment correct, @Asayre?

I'm surprised that nirnhoned gives the "full" value. Asayre of course will have the good info. I'm gonna guess the nirnhoned is the better choice. In your case.

Smasherx74 · August 2016

I guess this make senses, Two Daggers with sharpen would be better than 1 Sword 1 dagger with percise and sharpen.

Penetration must be better than the amount of extra damage?

Asayre · August 2016

@code65536

Yes, that's right.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

So I am going hybrid but focusing on weapon damage while having equal stam and magicka pools. I am pumping weapon damage so I decided to go nirnhorned to get my base damage since I have barely 30% crit rate (no real value for going with precise).

I think since I range between +53-60% weapon damage and base damage is subjected to the %age after all weapon modifiers that I would get a better boost to damage given my low crit rate.

I could see sharpened having a good improvement so I am currently 1 sharpened (off hand) and 1 nirnhorned (main hand). Should I go 2x nirnhorned swords each hand or sharpened?

One final point, I will be going 2x molag kena not maelstrom daggers.

Asayre · August 2016

@PS4_ZeColmeia

I would recommend 2 sharpened swords

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

If I remember correctly, nirnhorned is better against damage shields because it clears it faster vs sharpened which doesn't get any benefit until shields are gone right? Precise being the overall best in either situation, but like i said, I have a much lower crit rate.

So if I was going to choose it really qualitatively based on the choice between: Overall just good base damage and good against shielded targets (nirnhorned), targets with medium to high armor (sharpened), and good crit damage which will hurt any armor level or shield equally (precise)?

I think we all agree that a large portion of the population is in MA and HA which equals enough population for sharpened to be a serious choice, and sharpened is preferred on bosses vs trash due to the resistances. Only other assumption on above is that this is assuming solo and no group spec to drop resistances which would then negate the value of sharpened. Of which then precise and nirnhorned are the only logical choices and that is affected by PvP vs PvE (because of impen trait) and base crit rate.

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

Only reason I'm attacking this from a qualitative point is I think the % increase with my base weapon damage with nirnhorned weapons is not majorly significant (<= 300 damage) at my fully buffed (100% of the time) base damage. Most of my PvE is trash mobs so sharpened is not that beneficial and PvP I feel most are shielded if they are not sneakers.

I think with my meta, nirnhorned is better unless I am completely off

psychotic13 · August 2016

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

If I remember correctly, nirnhorned is better against damage shields because it clears it faster vs sharpened which doesn't get any benefit until shields are gone right? Precise being the overall best in either situation, but like i said, I have a much lower crit rate.

So if I was going to choose it really qualitatively based on the choice between: Overall just good base damage and good against shielded targets (nirnhorned), targets with medium to high armor (sharpened), and good crit damage which will hurt any armor level or shield equally (precise)?

I think we all agree that a large portion of the population is in MA and HA which equals enough population for sharpened to be a serious choice, and sharpened is preferred on bosses vs trash due to the resistances. Only other assumption on above is that this is assuming solo and no group spec to drop resistances which would then negate the value of sharpened. Of which then precise and nirnhorned are the only logical choices and that is affected by PvP vs PvE (because of impen trait) and base crit rate.

You can't crit against shields.

Xsorus · August 2016

@Asayre

Can you tell me the DPS difference on a onehanded weapon with Infused (think 1hd/shield) vs one handed weapon with Precise/Sharpened/Nirnhoned.

Not talking duel wield, so it'll only take into account 1 bonus of those.

If possible need to know the DPS difference between Disease Enchant and Weapon Damage Proc

Asayre · August 2016

@PS4_ZeColmeia

You cannot crit against shielded targets. You say that your main problem in PvE is trash and in PvP its shielded targets. In which case you want, Precise for PvE and nirnhoned in PvP. It sounds like you want to only use one trait for both situations. I would go with nirnhoned since the difference between Precise and Nirnhoned is small for PvE but large in PvP.

@Xsorus
This post compares Infused to the other traits and finds that it is slightly weaker than Nirnhoned.
And this one compares a Fire Enchant to a Weapon Damage Enchant and finds the former to be ~1.8% while the latter is 3%

PS4_ZeColmeia · August 2016

That was my thought as well. I wanted to thank you for the feedback. I've followed your posts for awhile and wanted to make sure I thanked you for your responses but also your community support. You're the man.

Rollin-Bones1 · August 2016

What about sharpened with a damage health glyph (unresistable damage)?

Curtdogg47 · October 2016

Yes

Fallen_Ray · October 2016

Reading this just got me thinking... I was going to craft a sharpened inferno staff today and upgrade it to legendary. Long story short I crafted My Nirnhorned Inferno staff 2 weeks before the patch notes stating the nirnhorned nerf came out. so when they did came I was devastated but it hasn't been that bad. The damage has been pretty good.

I also wanted to re-craft a restoration staff. Same thing. Back then powered trait was garbage and i crafted a precise restoration staff.

Now I dunno if I should craft them. What do you guys recommend?!

kylewwefan · October 2016

Necro thread. I think sharpened is the go to trait all the cool kids are using.

Fallen_Ray · October 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

Necro thread. I think sharpened is the go to trait all the cool kids are using.

OMG I can't believe I did that... I feel so bad... I was going to Make a new thread but saw this one in the top and it gave me about 80% of the info I was looking for I didn't even pay attention to the date...

Thanks for the answer though