Nirnhoned, Precise and Sharpened

Hutch679 · April 2016

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Minno · April 2016

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

Hutch679 · April 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

I still don't understand why reinforced over nirnhoned, when nirnhoned also gives spell resist. I get that reinforced will give more armor. But isn't the spell resist additional to the armor resist more beneficial? Or is reinforced better because it goes with the assumption that the majority of players will be stamina/physical damage based?

Minno · April 2016

Hutch679 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

I still don't understand why reinforced over nirnhoned, when nirnhoned also gives spell resist. I get that reinforced will give more armor. But isn't the spell resist additional to the armor resist more beneficial? Or is reinforced better because it goes with the assumption that the majority of players will be stamina/physical damage based?

Off top of my head it was looking at the numbers. They determined armor below 1800 on a single item gave more spell/armor than reinforced does. This is because nirn only changes for that item.

Therefore nirn works on small armor pieces and the shield.

Ajax_22 · April 2016

Hutch679 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

I still don't understand why reinforced over nirnhoned, when nirnhoned also gives spell resist. I get that reinforced will give more armor. But isn't the spell resist additional to the armor resist more beneficial? Or is reinforced better because it goes with the assumption that the majority of players will be stamina/physical damage based?

Reinforced gives you armor which gives physical and spell resist in equal measure. You end up getting more resist from reinforced on big heavy pieces, but nirn will give more resist on everything else.

Minno · April 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hutch679 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

I still don't understand why reinforced over nirnhoned, when nirnhoned also gives spell resist. I get that reinforced will give more armor. But isn't the spell resist additional to the armor resist more beneficial? Or is reinforced better because it goes with the assumption that the majority of players will be stamina/physical damage based?

Reinforced gives you armor which gives physical and spell resist in equal measure. You end up getting more resist from reinforced on big heavy pieces, but nirn will give more resist on everything else.

This is a better explanation than mine!

Hutch679 · April 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

Helm, chest, legs = reinforced
All small pieces = impen/nirn

That was my understanding.
With sharpened on enemies with armor but it's useless against shields.

I still don't understand why reinforced over nirnhoned, when nirnhoned also gives spell resist. I get that reinforced will give more armor. But isn't the spell resist additional to the armor resist more beneficial? Or is reinforced better because it goes with the assumption that the majority of players will be stamina/physical damage based?

Reinforced gives you armor which gives physical and spell resist in equal measure. You end up getting more resist from reinforced on big heavy pieces, but nirn will give more resist on everything else.

This is a better explanation than mine!

Thank you both for clarifying. I think I'm am understanding the big picture now. For me, I'm going to end up with reinforced on chest/legs/helm and impenetrable everything else. Gonna try to keep the magicka Dk going with heavy armor lol. Pray for me... Haha

MrTarkanian48 · April 2016

So did this buff to Sharpened just make resistance even more obsolete than it was, particularly in PVP?

I agree with the move to make it a flat value, but it is a BIG value.

At 5.1k armor penetration, that is equivalent to 15% penetration against Heavy Armor targets at the 33,150.

Magicka users using Major Breach, 5.1K Sharpened Weapon, 4884 Penetration from "Concentration Passive, 10% Penetration from Destro Passives....

You can have 15K resist in Cyrodiil reduced to nothing.

Asayre · April 2016

@Hutch679 Impenetrable is better than Reinforced/Nirnhoned on the PTS and on Live. Refer to my response to @flguy147ub17_ESO in http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2918905/#Comment_2918905

@MrTarkanian48 yes on the PTS it is quite easy to penetrate 16-17k resistance with Major Breach.

DDuke · April 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Hutch679 Impenetrable is better than Reinforced/Nirnhoned on the PTS and on Live. Refer to my response to @flguy147ub17_ESO in http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2918905/#Comment_2918905

@MrTarkanian48 yes on the PTS it is quite easy to penetrate 16-17k resistance with Major Breach.

I wonder if you're taking into account the periods of time you block?

No critical hits occur during that time, so raw mitigation is better for that.

It is a bit more complicated due to that I believe.

Also, doesn't base mitigation increase critical mitigation as well?

E.g. you get 1% base mitigation from Reinforced & opponent crits with a 180% modifier, so you end up reducing 1.8% of dmg.

idk, just asking because your graph had critical chance & base mitigation as the only factors :P

Asayre · April 2016

@DDuke you can crit while your target is blocking

I've taken into account base mitigation increasing critical mitigation as well

NateAssassin · April 2016

I guess the vr16 Precise Torug's sword I made by accident wasn't a complete waste after all, but those legendary Nirn swords are now complete garbage. gg zos

DDuke · April 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@DDuke you can crit while your target is blocking

I've taken into account base mitigation increasing critical mitigation as well

Oh, when did that change?

Well, I'll take your word (and picture) for it

Kinda boring though, impenetrable impenetrable impenetable on everything - oh well, time to craft new gear

So according to your math, impenetrable is better even on shield slot than nirnhoned (or reinforced in current patch)?

Asayre · April 2016

I don't know been that way ever since I started testing which was during the Imperial City PTS.

Yes, impenetrable on everything even with Shield Expert on a nirnhoned/reinforced shield

PlagueMonk · April 2016

I FULLY admit that my eyes glazed over trying to read the OP and that I skipped to the end for the cliff notes

Your vastly superior computing/analyzing skills have me believing whatever you say must be right.

So when I need to craft a new set of equipment can I just send you my character/skills and you can just tell me what will be best?

Alcast · April 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes it changes if you are using Warhorn, Minor Breach and Roar of Alkosh. But then again don't underestimate the sharpened plan with 66 in Elfborn since Major Force is multiplicative. I don't know if there is that much interest in a niche buff situation so I didn't write about it.

The Problem with Elfborn is that it only increases the crit damage modifier and not the whole damage part. So I always focus on Elemental expert and Thaumaturge for templar and I only put like 10 points into elfborn.

Or do you think with 3-4 Warhorns up in Trials Elfborn would outdo Thaumaturge?

The preferred distribution for a magicka templar is 73 ele 18 elfborn 3 spell erosion 73 thaum. Are you suggesting to take points out of Elfborn for a diminishing returns boost from Ele and Thaum? I don't advise this...

I have
65 into thaum
92 into ele expert
10 into Elfborn

I mean, it is almost close to the prefered setup. Yet I do have high crit damage build so maybe I should put more points into Elfborn.
I am not saying that this setup is superior. I just do get good dps with it,maybe I can improve with tweaking CP more.

Nifty2g · April 2016

Alcast wrote: »

show previous quotes

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes it changes if you are using Warhorn, Minor Breach and Roar of Alkosh. But then again don't underestimate the sharpened plan with 66 in Elfborn since Major Force is multiplicative. I don't know if there is that much interest in a niche buff situation so I didn't write about it.

The Problem with Elfborn is that it only increases the crit damage modifier and not the whole damage part. So I always focus on Elemental expert and Thaumaturge for templar and I only put like 10 points into elfborn.

Or do you think with 3-4 Warhorns up in Trials Elfborn would outdo Thaumaturge?

The preferred distribution for a magicka templar is 73 ele 18 elfborn 3 spell erosion 73 thaum. Are you suggesting to take points out of Elfborn for a diminishing returns boost from Ele and Thaum? I don't advise this...

I have
65 into thaum
92 into ele expert
10 into Elfborn

I mean, it is almost close to the prefered setup. Yet I do have high crit damage build so maybe I should put more points into Elfborn.
I am not saying that this setup is superior. I just do get good dps with it,maybe I can improve with tweaking CP more.

have you tried the 73/73? The main reason to do 73/73 is because your whole rotation is DoT. I'd agree with Nos I don't advise going against that.
I do believe the CP layout changes slightly if you have all buffs up alkosh etc etc but I wouldnt rely on that uptime to change your cp for it. I think going with 3 ele 18 elfborn 3 spell erosion 73 thaum is the best for templars

DPS isn't always correct on a parse to show which is better from your ftc reports :P a whole lot more goes into it, and a lot of rng can happen in game, but to get the most consistent I'd say that CP layout is just op

Rylana · April 2016

Hutch679 wrote: »

So on a heavy armor build for pvp..

Helm/ chest/ legs/ shield - nirnhoned
Shoulder/ glove/ waist/ feet - impenetrable
Sword - sharpened

Or am I missing something?

Obviously this is a bug change of current meta instead of running all impenetrable gear. This will take some hours of research before I craft my gear. Especially with the cost of Temps

For a heavy armor blockcaster

Large: 4x Infused prismatic. including shield (literally 2000 added stat points from 4 pieces)
Smalls: 4x Sturdy (seriously, you gotta make up for the lost of block cost)
Weapon: Sharpened on damage bar, weighted on recovery/defense bar, especially if resto channelling for ulti/resources.

Impen is absolutely trash since youll be running harness full time. Increased armor (reinforced) is completely unnecessary. Buffed with any armor buff youll be at 25-30k already, and if breton youd be at cap for spell.

Hutch679 · April 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Hutch679 Impenetrable is better than Reinforced/Nirnhoned on the PTS and on Live. Refer to my response to @flguy147ub17_ESO in http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2918905/#Comment_2918905

@MrTarkanian48 yes on the PTS it is quite easy to penetrate 16-17k resistance with Major Breach.

I'm at 2500 crit resistance now so maybe I won't be switching in that aspect then.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2016

Hey great Lord @Asayre, do you have any numbers on the spell damage increase from the enchant- would it be worth replacing say a fire enchant on a staff?

zerosingularity · April 2016

What about when dual wielding, with 1 hand Nirnhoned (since main hand gives more weapon/spellpower) and 1 Sharpened?

Cinbri · April 2016

Can anybody recap waht weapon trait is best in PvP for heavy armor user with s&b?

Asayre · April 2016

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO, yes a weapon damage enchant (which also gives spell damage) is preferred over a flame enchant

@zerosingularity, you can do that if you want to save a bit of money and want to avoid over mitigation. But a Precise and Sharpened sword would be preferred if your concern is only about the latter.

@Cinbri it depends on what you think is the main problem in PvP. Take Nirnhorned for a constant 3% damage against everything or Sharpened for 11% when their shields are down.

NBrookus · April 2016

@Asayre - slightly OT, but I'm theorycrafting a fire DoT templar build with Valkyn Skoria/Elfbane. How would I go about assessing the DoT from DW axes versus the extra damage from swords?

Asayre · April 2016

@NBrookus, you can create a simulation to determine uptime of DoT or use a combat log to determine the DPS contribution of the DoT.

In the example below, the DoT from axes contributes 12% of my total DPS so is better than dual wielding swords which increases DPS by 5%. Technically you should normalized your damage to damage from everything but the axe DoT which would show that the axe DoT is actually 13.6%

NBrookus · April 2016

Thanks, @Asayre, will give it a try. I never have found that old man test dummy but I need to.

Hmmm... I'm not even sure the axe bleed will proc with magicka attacks. I'd better test that first!

Asayre · April 2016

@NBrookus, he's gone on the PTS

I went to the first boss on normal spindle. I don't think it works with magicka attacks.

NBrookus · April 2016

@Asayre I just crafted some garbage white axes and tested it on my sorc. It does not proc the bleed DoT with crystal frags.

Alas.

mistermutiny89 · May 2016

I've been doing testing on the LIVE server.

With a precise staff... I put points 30/30 spell erosion and elfborn. The all into elfborn and got the below.

My buffed Swallow Soul was doing 13-14k on a Wrothgar mammoth.
I'd go into a vet dungeon and my swallow soul would only do 10-11k on all mobs and bosses.

I changed to a nirnhoned staff .... Moved all the points into elfborn,

I got 14-15k on the mammoth
And 13-14k on the vet dungeons ads and mobs.

So yes... Spell Penetration on the weapons and high crit damage from champion points is a must in PVE.

Not trying to repeat you but reaffirming your math with my own testing.

Next test will be with the spell damage buff weapon glyphs and the penetrating glyphs.

Vanzen · May 2016

@Asayre
What to you think of the combination Torug's pactx5 + infused weapon as it has been hinted at in some other thread.?
Compared to sharpen in a magical build. Will the spell power gain be of some advantage over It ?