Nirnhoned, Precise and Sharpened

Asayre · May 2016

@Vanzen

I don't think so. This is the weapon damage glyph on the PTS

Knowing that Torug and Infused combine multiplicatively, the following table can be constructed

ICD - Internal Cooldown, here I'm using the time from one activation to the next activation including the period when the buff is active. There could be some error in my measurement of ICD because not all my addons work on the PTS but I would say it's correct to ± 0.5s.

We see that using just Infused compared to not using Infused increases average spell damage from enchant by 173.5 which is roughly 3% increased DPS so it's slightly weaker than using Nirnhoned.

Considering just the 5 piece bonus of Torug, the average spell damage from the weapon damage enchant increases by 77. This is significantly worse than the 5 piece bonus of Julianos (299 Spell Damage). Here we'll naively assume that the 2-4 piece bonus of Julianos and Torug are equivalent but in reality they are not as while the 2 piece of Torug (Spell Damage) is decent the 3 and 4 piece (Health and Spell Resistance, respectively) are not useful for PvE DPS.

When using both Torug and Infused, the average spell damage from the weapon damage enchant is increased by 368. If we subtract the 5 piece bonus from Julianos this means that Infused is only offering 69 spell damage or a bit over 1% increased DPS. Even Julianos and Infused would be better than Torug and Infused. I cannot find much merit to Torug and Infused.

Additional points that detract from the notion of using Torug and Infused are that a weapon attack is always needed to benefit from the Torug 5 piece bonus which does not always occur during execute phases and that magicka DPS tend to have 2 Torug swords on their execute bar to benefit from the increased spell damage.

Edit: Torug's 5 piece does not interact with the spell damage from Maelstrom staff enchants. I do not know if this is intended of not but just putting it here before someone ask about using Torug and Maelstrom staves. I don't know if the spell damage from the Maelstrom staff will be boosted by Infused.

Vanzen · May 2016

@Asayre
Much impressed by the extent of your answer. Much apreciated. Thanks you sir !

Minalan · May 2016

The torug/infused thing was tested, there's a 1-2 second lag between activations in practice.

Kags or Julianos turn out to be better sets.

Joy_Division · May 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

@Asayre I just crafted some garbage white axes and tested it on my sorc. It does not proc the bleed DoT with crystal frags.

Alas.

I believe the Axe must actually hit the target through a basic attack or a melee skill in order to proc it's bleed. It's that way for weapon enchants.

@Asayre - You often say that X spellpower or Y penetration is approximately Z% damage increase. Can you offer some insight into how you came to such a conclusion?

Derra · May 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

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NBrookus wrote: »

@Asayre I just crafted some garbage white axes and tested it on my sorc. It does not proc the bleed DoT with crystal frags.

Alas.

I believe the Axe much actually hit the target through a basic attack or a melee skill in order to proc it's bleed. It's that way for weapon enchants.

@Asayre - You often say that X spellpower or Y penetration is approximately Z% damage increase. Can you offer some insight into how you came to such a conclusion?

My educated guess would be he/she is assuming an average target resistance against which the DPS gain/loss can be calculated.

Asayre · May 2016

@Joy_Division

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage. I convert the magicka into equivalent spell damage at a 10.5 to 1 ratio so the equivalent spell damage is 6810. From this, every 68.1 buffed spell damage will increase ability tooltip by 1%. Assuming just Major Sorcery, 68.1 buffed spell damage is 56.75 unbuffed spell damage or for an extra fast rule of thumb 60 unbuffed spell damage is ~1% increased ability damage. As an aside, this only applies for most abilities as the 10.5 Magicka increases tooltip by around the same amount as 1 spell damage. It is not true for weapon attacks where the ratio is 40:1.

For conversion of penetration to (buffed) spell damage, I consider the average damage equation

where

and imagine two situations. The first where you have an additional spell damage component but no penetration and the second without the additional spell damage component but with the penetration, that is

and

Equating the two will yield the following:

The only things to keep in mind are to ensure that mitigation never goes below zero and to always differentiate between buffed and unbuffed spell damage (I sometimes get confused between the two).

Vanzen · May 2016

@Asayre

reading your comment again

"When using both Torug and Infused, the average spell damage from the weapon damage enchant is increased by 368. If we subtract the 5 piece bonus from Julianos this means that Infused is only offering 69 spell damage or a bit over 1% increased DPS. Even Julianos and Infused would be better than Torug and Infused. I cannot find much merit to Torug and Infused."

I wonder if you didnt forget the +129 spell power of torugs wich would amount to +198 compared to Julianos ?

BTW this is all from a mag DK pvp perspective with something along the lines like Torugx5 VDX5 Skoriax2

kylewwefan · May 2016

Saving. Thread is interesting! Still not sure what it all means?

code65536 · May 2016

Vanzen wrote: »

reading your comment again

"When using both Torug and Infused, the average spell damage from the weapon damage enchant is increased by 368. If we subtract the 5 piece bonus from Julianos this means that Infused is only offering 69 spell damage or a bit over 1% increased DPS. Even Julianos and Infused would be better than Torug and Infused. I cannot find much merit to Torug and Infused."

I wonder if you didnt forget the +129 spell power of torugs wich would amount to +198 compared to Julianos ?

BTW this is all from a mag DK pvp perspective with something along the lines like Torugx5 VDX5 Skoriax2

That is the difference between Torug+Infused over having neither.

The difference between Torug+Infused over just plan infused is only 195.

So if you compare Torug+Infused over Julianos+Infused...

Torug: 195+129, +Health, +Spell Resistance
Julianos: 299, +Magicka (with about a 10.5-to-1 ratio, that's over 90 SD), and +Crit

In terms of pure damage stats, Julianos will win out. There's also the matter of convenience: you require weapon attacks to proc the enchantment, and the Julianos buffs are just there. Torug does offer some amount of utility with the health and resistance, but if you want utility, why not go Kagrenac+Infused?

Asayre · May 2016

@Vanzen

I was only comparing the 5 piece bonus of Torug to the 5 piece bonus of Julianos. The 2-4 piece bonus of Julianos is significantly better than the 2-4 piece bonus of Torug.

Torug offers 129 base spell damage or 161 buffed spell damage (Major and Minor Sorcery) and some utility which is not too important for PvE DPS. Julianos offers 967 base magicka and 6.3% critical chance. At max CP, 967 base magicka will translate to around 1450 max magicka which is equivalent to 138 buffed spell damage. 6.3% critical chance is worth around 210 buffed spell damage (refer to the OP section on Precise). Thus the 2-4 piece bonus of Julianos is worth 348 spell damage compared to the 161 of Torug. So if you were to consider the entire set bonus of Torug and Julianos you'll actually come up with an even larger gap in favour of Julianos.

Tevalaur · May 2016

Asayre wrote: »

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage..

How did you arrive at those numbers? I'm a VR 11 sorc with 54 attribute points in Magicka and wearing 5-pc Julianos, 2-pc Soulshine (adds more max magicka), 2-pc Shadow Dancer (adds more max magicka) and my character sheet says I have 23355 Maximum Magicka and 1581 Spell Damage. My mundus stone is thief, so do have 67.4% spell critical. But at VR11 I'd seriously expect more than roughly half your estimates if they were sound.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

Tevalaur wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asayre wrote: »

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage..

How did you arrive at those numbers? I'm a VR 11 sorc with 54 attribute points in Magicka and wearing 5-pc Julianos, 2-pc Soulshine (adds more max magicka), 2-pc Shadow Dancer (adds more max magicka) and my character sheet says I have 23355 Maximum Magicka and 1581 Spell Damage. My mundus stone is thief, so do have 67.4% spell critical. But at VR11 I'd seriously expect more than roughly half your estimates if they were sound.

You're missing:
1. 501 CP boosts resources significantly
2. Are you running food?
3. Are you running Bound Aegis?
4. Are you running Inner Light and Shooting Star Ice Comet?
5. Are you running the full undaunted bonus?
6. Are you running a gold weapon? The difference between a v11 weapon and a v16 weapon is huge
7. Are you full spell damage on your rings?
8. Are you running all magicka enchants on your gear?
9. Are you running major/minor spell damage buffs?

These are just a few things to consider when figuring out why you are so low. Asayre's statement is very accurate, if anything he is lowballing it a bit when it comes to endgame competitive builds

NBrookus · May 2016

Tevalaur wrote: »

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Asayre wrote: »

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage..

How did you arrive at those numbers? I'm a VR 11 sorc with 54 attribute points in Magicka and wearing 5-pc Julianos, 2-pc Soulshine (adds more max magicka), 2-pc Shadow Dancer (adds more max magicka) and my character sheet says I have 23355 Maximum Magicka and 1581 Spell Damage. My mundus stone is thief, so do have 67.4% spell critical. But at VR11 I'd seriously expect more than roughly half your estimates if they were sound.

In Julianos/Willpower/Nerein'eth/ 1 or 2 pc Torugs & Thief mundus, my V16 breton sorc passes 40k and just under 3k spell damage when using blue food & all max magicka enchants. Same when wearing Kagneracs/Willpower/1 pc Kena/ 1 or 2 piece Torugs.

They are reasonable numbers... at least when you are at or near CP cap. Altmer would no doubt be higher.

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

Asayre wrote: »

TL;DR – For PvE DPS: Sharpened > Precise > Nirnhoned
Precise can be better for organised groups running most armour debuffs in the game

When evaluating between these three item traits it is imperative to recall the average damage formula

where

The skill coefficient, a, depends on the skill in question and an excellent list of skill coefficients can be found at http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php. b is around 10.5 for most abilities. Attacker Bonus refers to certain Champion Points like Elemental Expert, Mighty or Thaumathurge and includes certain skills and passives such as Major or Minor Berserk. For simplicity, we can just set this to one and ignore it for the large part.

Armour debuffs include Major/Minor Breach, 5 piece bonus of Roar of Alkosh and the Crushing Enchantment. An example of percentage penetration is Penetrating Magic (Destruction Staff). Flat Penetration includes the base penetration of 100, Concentration and Spell Erosion/Piercing.
In order to compare the three traits, we can convert both the additional flat penetration offered by Sharpened and the extra critical chance into Spell/Weapon Damage. Finally we can convert the Spell/Weapon damage equivalence to an increase in an arbitrary ability tooltip.

I’ll use a generic magicka build as an example, I’ll assume a Magicka pool of 40k and Spell Damage of 3k which is reasonably typical for endgame builds. Only legendary trait values are considered.

Nirnhoned
It increases the tooltip value of a weapon by 11% which in turn increases Spell/Weapon damage by 11% before any buffs. For a staff, this corresponds to a base increase in spell damage of 146 Spell Damage and for dual wielding swords it corresponds to 175 Spell Damage. Typically this base spell damage is buffed by 25% by Major and Minor Sorcery. So you would expect 183 Spell Damage for a staff and 219 Spell Damage for dual wielding swords. Thus if we’re dual wielding swords, Nirnhoned leads to an increase ability tooltip of roughly 3.2%.

Precise
The 7% increased weapon and spell critical can be converted to an equivalent spell damage with the following equation

A reasonably common spell critical for endgame builds is around 60% and a critical modifier between 0.6-0.7 is typical for most magicka builds. This assumes around 30 points in Elfborn which is a fairly common recommendation from my Champion Point optimisation spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing) thus the spell damage equivalence for Precise is about

This translates to an increase in average ability tooltip by 3.5%. Note that we can reach this answer quicker by noting that

Sharpened
In a similar fashion to the previous section, the increased physical and spell penetration of Sharpened can be converted to an equivalent spell damage or more directly into an increase in ability tooltip

where Mitigation has been separated into a Sharpened component and everything else. The key concern here is that the Resistance of a target cannot go below zero. Let us consider a typical 4 person dungeon, bosses have around 18k resistance and trash have anywhere from 10 to 18k resistance (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/). The main source of armour debuff is Major Breach (5280) and Flat Penetration for Magicka Characters is at least 4984 (100 base + 4884 Concentration). Flat Penetration is typically higher by around 1-2k depending on the number of points assigned into Spell Erosion. This means the average boss will have about 6.5k resistance and 100% of the Sharpened bonus is used meaning that it increase ability tooltip by

Unfortunately, Sharpened is useless on any mob with less than about 12k resistance as its resistance is already reduced to zero from other sources. So at first glance, the optimal trait seems to be Sharpened for bosses and Precise for trash, similar to the meta on Live.
But there may be another way around this, given that we are reaching unmitigated damage it is reasonable to remove all points from Spell Erosion and apply it all into Elfborn instead. Then a more interesting question would be how much resistance does Sharpened need to remove for it to be equivalent to Precise. Precise provides 3.5% increase in ability tooltip, this value can be achieved if Sharpened removes at least 1750 resistance. My optimal champion point spreadsheet tends to suggest around 30 points in Elfborn which corresponds to this value. Thus it is possible to simply use Sharpened for most trash and all bosses and put 66 points in Elfborn (67 points in Elfborn works the same as 66 points so spent the last point in something else like Staff Expert. In this way Sharpened is acting at worst equivalent to Precise but you get additional points in Elfborn thus increasing your average damage or it significantly outperforms Precise on bosses.

Although I've only discussed magicka builds primarily, this conclusion of using Sharpened in most situations holds true for stamina builds as well. Stamina builds do not have a Flat Penetration skill but this is compensated by several armour debuff methods.

Basically what I got as well, but I prefer to calculate everything in terms of damage increase instead of spell damage. One issue: why not rely on the increase of crit modifier (I call it crit to non crit ratio [c2nc] since the games slogan is misleading and yours is a bit vague) from TBS, then put your extra blue points into increasing dot damage. Indeed, dot damage typically makes up roughly 47% of your damage (much higher for templars and a bit higher for dks lower for sorcs since their ulti is not a dot) while by your own formula and assumption only about

0.6/(1+0.783*0.6)=0.41 -> 41%

returns on elfborn. (I changed your 1.7 c2nc to 1.783 since I'm assuming a nb [or I guess temp using tbs or a sorc or dk with enough points into elfborn to add .10 to c2nc]) This way, you'd want to weight your extra 67 cp accordingly giving us less than 10% increase from elfborn in the c2nc ratio (total crit to non crit would be a bit less than 1.7 pre TBS which is below the threshold of 1.7 which is the point where TBS is more effective than Juli fo a magika nb). So the ideal set up for the next update for a magika nb would be

TBS all divines, Sharpened weapons, points in elfborn getting c2nc up to 1.7 pre TBS (hence 1.883 after), all others into dot damage with jump points spread out in staff expert and spell erosion.

Magika nbs are the only tough one imo. Sorc should use Juli 67 (well, as you point out really 66) into Elfborn (it's only about 0.1% dps loss to use infused on big pieces of Juli instead of divines while getting the extra 1k magika which sorcs can use for shields and substain so big pieces, IMO should be infused for sorcs). While DK and templar should use TBS and 67 into Dot damage.

I still need to read over your stuff (and once my cpu gets fixed experimenting in game) to understand spell pen, but I'll take your word on it for now! It's amazing how much better sharpened will be in the next update, especially in solo content (i.e. vMSA). As you calculations show, if the thing you're fighting even has just 3% mit left, sharpened wins! So much better I expect a nerf/fix. One would hope they'd boost nirn and precise (since this is what my weapons already are!), but we know ZOS prefers to nerf things instead of boosting others.

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

Alcast wrote: »

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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes it changes if you are using Warhorn, Minor Breach and Roar of Alkosh. But then again don't underestimate the sharpened plan with 66 in Elfborn since Major Force is multiplicative. I don't know if there is that much interest in a niche buff situation so I didn't write about it.

The Problem with Elfborn is that it only increases the crit damage modifier and not the whole damage part. So I always focus on Elemental expert and Thaumaturge for templar and I only put like 10 points into elfborn.

Or do you think with 3-4 Warhorns up in Trials Elfborn would outdo Thaumaturge?

what do you mean by this? i have watched your videos heard you say something similars and according to Asayre, elfborn is additive not multiplicative, to the crit, as seen here -

so the extra 10% crit damage from 29 CP into adds another 10% crit damage to the crit, ie 160% damage instead of 150%. how else would you expect it to act? the way you are explaining it sounds like it only adds 10% of the extra 50% damge, ie 155% instead of 150% damage.

On live server 10% Elfborn end up being 1,55 dmg modifier. If the base was 1.50 dmg modifier. I will test it on pts later.

10% in Elfborn means that (using the same ability and nothing else changing this value) (Damage while crit)/(Damage without a crit) = 1.6. Note however, this is only (1.6-1.5)/1.5 = 0.1/1.5=0.067777 (6.7777%) more damage.

Samwell Slayer · May 2016

Alcast wrote: »

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hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes it changes if you are using Warhorn, Minor Breach and Roar of Alkosh. But then again don't underestimate the sharpened plan with 66 in Elfborn since Major Force is multiplicative. I don't know if there is that much interest in a niche buff situation so I didn't write about it.

The Problem with Elfborn is that it only increases the crit damage modifier and not the whole damage part. So I always focus on Elemental expert and Thaumaturge for templar and I only put like 10 points into elfborn.

Or do you think with 3-4 Warhorns up in Trials Elfborn would outdo Thaumaturge?

The preferred distribution for a magicka templar is 73 ele 18 elfborn 3 spell erosion 73 thaum. Are you suggesting to take points out of Elfborn for a diminishing returns boost from Ele and Thaum? I don't advise this...

I have
65 into thaum
92 into ele expert
10 into Elfborn

I mean, it is almost close to the prefered setup. Yet I do have high crit damage build so maybe I should put more points into Elfborn.
I am not saying that this setup is superior. I just do get good dps with it,maybe I can improve with tweaking CP more.

If you already have a high crit damage, then you should put LESS points into Elfborn. Like enclosing an area with a fence of fixed length, it's best to have equal numbers as much as possible (i.e. a square is much more effecient than a really long or wide rectangle). Every stat in the game has HIGH diminishing returns.

TARAFRAKA · May 2016

Tevalaur wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asayre wrote: »

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage..

How did you arrive at those numbers? I'm a VR 11 sorc with 54 attribute points in Magicka and wearing 5-pc Julianos, 2-pc Soulshine (adds more max magicka), 2-pc Shadow Dancer (adds more max magicka) and my character sheet says I have 23355 Maximum Magicka and 1581 Spell Damage. My mundus stone is thief, so do have 67.4% spell critical. But at VR11 I'd seriously expect more than roughly half your estimates if they were sound.

The stats the he is assuming to be typical ARE typical of a v16 with capped CP points and majority/all legendary gear + mage/undaunted passive + spell damage enchants with BIS gear/jewelry all blue bi stat/tri stat food + major sorcery buff + inner light/meteor slotted + appropriate mundus stone. Not trying to offend but your stats seem oddly low.
It may just be because you're v11 without end game gear, I can't recall any of my v16s stats at that level. Safe to assume you aren't wearing willpower 3 pc jewelry and are without legendary gear? Also, unsure how your CP points are allocated as well.

Tevalaur · May 2016

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tevalaur wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

For rough estimates, I assume that endgame magicka builds have around 40k magicka and 3k spell damage..

How did you arrive at those numbers? I'm a VR 11 sorc with 54 attribute points in Magicka and wearing 5-pc Julianos, 2-pc Soulshine (adds more max magicka), 2-pc Shadow Dancer (adds more max magicka) and my character sheet says I have 23355 Maximum Magicka and 1581 Spell Damage. My mundus stone is thief, so do have 67.4% spell critical. But at VR11 I'd seriously expect more than roughly half your estimates if they were sound.

The stats the he is assuming to be typical ARE typical of a v16 with capped CP points and majority/all legendary gear + mage/undaunted passive + spell damage enchants with BIS gear/jewelry all blue bi stat/tri stat food + major sorcery buff + inner light/meteor slotted + appropriate mundus stone. Not trying to offend but your stats seem oddly low.
It may just be because you're v11 without end game gear, I can't recall any of my v16s stats at that level. Safe to assume you aren't wearing willpower 3 pc jewelry and are without legendary gear? Also, unsure how your CP points are allocated as well.

No I'm not wearing willpower jewelry, and am only wearing the sets named in my post as purple quality. I also am no where near CP cap... My guess is a lot of it is from CP and the difference between gold/purple gear as I've maxxed all I can in character build for a magicka sorc. I just didn't think 5 levels and one bump in gear quality would make THAT huge a difference, guess it does -- especially when folks just figure everyone already has max/near-max CP, lol. I've been working to make sure when DB hits I have at least 160 CP

(so no, I don't have anywhere near the 501 max).

Minalan · May 2016

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

You may want to reexamine your listed ICD on the weapon enchant, as 10 seconds is incorrect. After double checking a lot of numbers and updating a lot of personal notes I have found that enchants have an 8 second ICD base. I had originally thought they were 6 seconds, but this was due to a bug back when the 2 Handed skill line had a passive that reduced the ICD of enchants by 30%, but rounded down if any fractions were involved ( 8s ICD x .3 = -2.4, but due to rounding it became -2s, so 6s ICD) applied to all weapon enchants, even when not actively wearing a 2h weapon.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

Asayre · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

How are you testing the ICD of weapon damage enchants?

I made this staff on Live. Please ignore the fact that it is a Torug staff I just happened to be there

My base and crit light attack damage on Slimecraw without the enchant active is 863 and 1432, respectively. With the enchant active my base and crit damage is 934 and 1551, respectively. In the log below, the time between enchant proc is 10 seconds. I am trying to proc every second so I don't see how it could be 8 seconds.

By the way, which passive was reducing enchant ICD?

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

That is misleading....for a stam build to get 17k pen you need to run sunderflame. It gives the group 6.78% increased damage. Assuming BiS group with 8 members pulling 35k each, group DPS is 280k. a 6.78 % increase would be around 19k dps. If some poor lad has to wear this crap to add 19k dps to the group he wont be pulling 35k... he would be lucky to break 25, most like barely scratching 20k...so you are gaining 19k but losing around 15k....a 4k dps gain for the group and one person has to heavy attack every 8 seconds and wear subpar gear to provide this, why would you want to torture your team mate so much? This is with a perfectly tuned group that stays together by the way. What about second boss of vMoL where the group is separate? Would would they do then?

Furthermore, you and I both ran with CSH core - top NA guild. I dont know how it was in your runs but in my runs Alkosh uptime was nowhere near 100% and without it being up for 100% sharpened is uncontested. However even with Alkosh up, sharpened provides 7.7% dps gain on bosses. I cant imagine a scenario where precise would even come close to this number.

For magicka builds it is a bit different. With Alkosh up your sharpened weapon gives you around 3% dps gain, where is without Alkosh up, you gain around 9.1%. Precise boosts DPS by anywhere between 3.6% (worst case) to 4.7% (best case). So for a magicka build with 100% alkosh uptime you would only gain around 1.7% dps at most from precise versus sharpened. Now since as we both are aware, it is unlikely that Alkosh will be up on target 100% of the time, I would much rather get a guaranteed 9.1% dps gain with a a occasional 1.7% dps loss than a potential 1.7% dps gain and a frequent 4+% dps loss.

TLDR Sharpened is BiS

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

How are you testing the ICD of weapon damage enchants?

I made this staff on Live. Please ignore the fact that it is a Torug staff I just happened to be there

My base and crit light attack damage on Slimecraw without the enchant active is 863 and 1432, respectively. With the enchant active my base and crit damage is 934 and 1551, respectively. In the log below, the time between enchant proc is 10 seconds. I am trying to proc every second so I don't see how it could be 8 seconds.

By the way, which passive was reducing enchant ICD?

I also got 10 seconds in my testing

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

How are you testing the ICD of weapon damage enchants?

I made this staff on Live. Please ignore the fact that it is a Torug staff I just happened to be there

My base and crit light attack damage on Slimecraw without the enchant active is 863 and 1432, respectively. With the enchant active my base and crit damage is 934 and 1551, respectively. In the log below, the time between enchant proc is 10 seconds. I am trying to proc every second so I don't see how it could be 8 seconds.

By the way, which passive was reducing enchant ICD?

The same way as you, light attacking a mob, recording the time stamp, and continuously attacking until it reprocs. I tested mine with a single dagger, to make sure there was no other variables. Would you mind testing it with a melee weapon instead of a staff to humor me? I ran the test 3 times to make sure I was right, and it was always around 8 seconds, with a little bit of extra time due to inability to attack precisely on whole second integers.
*edit; I looked at the character sheet's increase in weapon damage, rather than the actual damage done. Perhaps this is why we are getting conflicting results? I can record and show that it takes 8 seconds for the character sheet to grant the enchant if need be.

Also if I recall correctly the passive was called Arcane Fighter, which went through 2 or 3 passive changes before it was completely removed and renamed to Follow Up.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

That is misleading....for a stam build to get 17k pen you need to run sunderflame. It gives the group 6.78% increased damage. Assuming BiS group with 8 members pulling 35k each, group DPS is 280k. a 6.78 % increase would be around 19k dps. If some poor lad has to wear this crap to add 19k dps to the group he wont be pulling 35k... he would be lucky to break 25, most like barely scratching 20k...so you are gaining 19k but losing around 15k....a 4k dps gain for the group and one person has to heavy attack every 8 seconds and wear subpar gear to provide this, why would you want to torture your team mate so much? This is with a perfectly tuned group that stays together by the way. What about second boss of vMoL where the group is separate? Would would they do then?

Furthermore, you and I both ran with CSH core - top NA guild. I dont know how it was in your runs but in my runs Alkosh uptime was nowhere near 100% and without it being up for 100% sharpened is uncontested. However even with Alkosh up, sharpened provides 7.7% dps gain on bosses. I cant imagine a scenario where precise would even come close to this number.

For magicka builds it is a bit different. With Alkosh up your sharpened weapon gives you around 3% dps gain, where is without Alkosh up, you gain around 9.1%. Precise boosts DPS by anywhere between 3.6% (worst case) to 4.7% (best case). So for a magicka build with 100% alkosh uptime you would only gain around 1.7% dps at most from precise versus sharpened. Now since as we both are aware, it is unlikely that Alkosh will be up on target 100% of the time, I would much rather get a guaranteed 9.1% dps gain with a a occasional 1.7% dps loss than a potential 1.7% dps gain and a frequent 4+% dps loss.

TLDR Sharpened is BiS

Sunderflame is a ~600 stamina and 8 weapon damage (both after amps) deficit by being v14 instead of v16, it loses very little stats when you compare it to say a gold v16 NMG setup. It also synergizes extremely well with a stamina DK using Molten Armaments and Spawn of Mephala.

35k is also very low for end game in the current patch, most properly functioning stamina builds are now breaking 40k with ease. I'm not sure how you got your numbers for the wearer apparently losing 4k DPS, but you should probably go try it before you just make up nonsensical numbers. There are obvious disadvantages that would need to be played around like twins, but you also wouldn't be using it since that fight is heavily AoE based as to single target.

Not to put you down, but you are not in core runs, and while Alkosh is not exactly 100%, it is at a high enough rate to out perform Sharpened from the testing I've gathered. Rakkhat has 18600 Physical Resit, reduced by the following;
-5280 Major Fracture
-1320 Minor Fracture
-2580 NMG
-1920 Infused Crusher
-2107 (70% up time Alkosh)
-3360 Sunder
-100 base
= -16667
leaves 1993 Phys resist, or 3.866% DPS to be gained from Sharpened . This also assumes you have no points put into Piercing Strikes, which is usually not the case.

Meanwhile end game stam builds run anywhere from 123% to 134% CHD in raid (223/234 with base 1 added), which multiplied by .075 (7.5% crit) is 9.225%-10.05% increase, which loses a little bit due to the remaining 1993 Phys Resist, which comes to a 8.857%-9.649% DPS boost.

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

show previous quotes

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

That is misleading....for a stam build to get 17k pen you need to run sunderflame. It gives the group 6.78% increased damage. Assuming BiS group with 8 members pulling 35k each, group DPS is 280k. a 6.78 % increase would be around 19k dps. If some poor lad has to wear this crap to add 19k dps to the group he wont be pulling 35k... he would be lucky to break 25, most like barely scratching 20k...so you are gaining 19k but losing around 15k....a 4k dps gain for the group and one person has to heavy attack every 8 seconds and wear subpar gear to provide this, why would you want to torture your team mate so much? This is with a perfectly tuned group that stays together by the way. What about second boss of vMoL where the group is separate? Would would they do then?

Furthermore, you and I both ran with CSH core - top NA guild. I dont know how it was in your runs but in my runs Alkosh uptime was nowhere near 100% and without it being up for 100% sharpened is uncontested. However even with Alkosh up, sharpened provides 7.7% dps gain on bosses. I cant imagine a scenario where precise would even come close to this number.

For magicka builds it is a bit different. With Alkosh up your sharpened weapon gives you around 3% dps gain, where is without Alkosh up, you gain around 9.1%. Precise boosts DPS by anywhere between 3.6% (worst case) to 4.7% (best case). So for a magicka build with 100% alkosh uptime you would only gain around 1.7% dps at most from precise versus sharpened. Now since as we both are aware, it is unlikely that Alkosh will be up on target 100% of the time, I would much rather get a guaranteed 9.1% dps gain with a a occasional 1.7% dps loss than a potential 1.7% dps gain and a frequent 4+% dps loss.

TLDR Sharpened is BiS

Sunderflame is a ~600 stamina and 8 weapon damage (both after amps) deficit by being v14 instead of v16, it loses very little stats when you compare it to say a gold v16 NMG setup. It also synergizes extremely well with a stamina DK using Molten Armaments and Spawn of Mephala.

35k is also very low for end game in the current patch, most properly functioning stamina builds are now breaking 40k with ease. I'm not sure how you got your numbers for the wearer apparently losing 4k DPS, but you should probably go try it before you just make up nonsensical numbers. There are obvious disadvantages that would need to be played around like twins, but you also wouldn't be using it since that fight is heavily AoE based as to single target.

Not to put you down, but you are not in core runs, and while Alkosh is not exactly 100%, it is at a high enough rate to out perform Sharpened from the testing I've gathered. Rakkhat has 18600 Physical Resit, reduced by the following;
-5280 Major Fracture
-1320 Minor Fracture
-2580 NMG
-1920 Infused Crusher
-2107 (70% up time Alkosh)
-3360 Sunder
-100 base
= -16667
leaves 1993 Phys resist, or 3.866% DPS to be gained from Sharpened . This also assumes you have no points put into Piercing Strikes, which is usually not the case.

Meanwhile end game stam builds run anywhere from 123% to 134% CHD in raid (223/234 with base 1 added), which multiplied by .075 (7.5% crit) is 9.225%-10.05% increase, which loses a little bit due to the remaining 1993 Phys Resist, which comes to a 8.857%-9.649% DPS boost.

Haha Gil you're funny.
1.A DK won't be running sunder flame, more like Morag or Toxic Defiance.
2. 40k on a fight with mechanics is not common Gil. Ive ran withcore I have a dps meter woth share enabled;)
3. I have no points into physical pen *no need with sharpened)
4. Then there is your crazy crit analysis. Where on earthe are you getting your numbers? Let's take a look at a stamplar 50 base, 12 trap, 10 Piercing Spear, 18.3 shadow, 8 % From CP. Total is 98.3. I'm assuming you're factoring in major force? Again I have yet to see major force be up every 9.5 seconds, but I'll be generous and say you have it up 20 put of every 30 seconds. This means a 1.2 multiplier. 1.2 x 98.3 = 118. Now that's on a templar with a passive modifier so a very crit favoring scenario. Now with endgame sets that stamplar is likely running anywhere fron 64.4 to 72.4 crit chance depending on race. Let's again assume a precise favoring scenario of him running 64.4 % crit chance. At 64.4% crit chance chance and 118% crit damage modifier you will average 1.76 times base damage. Now let's say we put on a precise staff. This puts us at 71.4% crit, or 1.84 times base damage. A 4.5% damage difference. Not sure how you are doing your math.
5. On a Stam build especially precise is weaker than it is on a magicka build due to lower crit damage modifier (more points in Thaumaturge since most are dot builds means less points in precise strikes) and higher average crit. This diminishes the importance of increasing crit chance. On a magicka build precise plays a much more important role, since the average magicka crit is lower than stam and the access to crit damage modifiers is higher.
6. Finally as for me not being in core runs that's just cute Gil...

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

From the live cast, Wrobel thinks this is balanced because Nirn and Precise help healing, where Sharpened only damage, and then situationally (when the mob or player has armor)

Looking at the numbers here... I don't get it. I can understand 1-2% better, but this?

Because Sharpened has the potential to be beaten. If you had read the OP or understand how penetration worked you'd see that Sharpened may lose DPS values if there is no Physical or Spell resistance to shred. Sharpened is actually far worse than Precise in coordinated raid environments because of all of the other ways to reduce mob's/player mitigation. There's over 17k worth of Physical Resist shreds in the game, and most bosses have 18k resist. That immediately reduces a single Sharpened trait to less than 50% efficiency, not looking at the additional 5281 pen you can get from CP nodes.

That is misleading....for a stam build to get 17k pen you need to run sunderflame. It gives the group 6.78% increased damage. Assuming BiS group with 8 members pulling 35k each, group DPS is 280k. a 6.78 % increase would be around 19k dps. If some poor lad has to wear this crap to add 19k dps to the group he wont be pulling 35k... he would be lucky to break 25, most like barely scratching 20k...so you are gaining 19k but losing around 15k....a 4k dps gain for the group and one person has to heavy attack every 8 seconds and wear subpar gear to provide this, why would you want to torture your team mate so much? This is with a perfectly tuned group that stays together by the way. What about second boss of vMoL where the group is separate? Would would they do then?

Furthermore, you and I both ran with CSH core - top NA guild. I dont know how it was in your runs but in my runs Alkosh uptime was nowhere near 100% and without it being up for 100% sharpened is uncontested. However even with Alkosh up, sharpened provides 7.7% dps gain on bosses. I cant imagine a scenario where precise would even come close to this number.

For magicka builds it is a bit different. With Alkosh up your sharpened weapon gives you around 3% dps gain, where is without Alkosh up, you gain around 9.1%. Precise boosts DPS by anywhere between 3.6% (worst case) to 4.7% (best case). So for a magicka build with 100% alkosh uptime you would only gain around 1.7% dps at most from precise versus sharpened. Now since as we both are aware, it is unlikely that Alkosh will be up on target 100% of the time, I would much rather get a guaranteed 9.1% dps gain with a a occasional 1.7% dps loss than a potential 1.7% dps gain and a frequent 4+% dps loss.

TLDR Sharpened is BiS

Sunderflame is a ~600 stamina and 8 weapon damage (both after amps) deficit by being v14 instead of v16, it loses very little stats when you compare it to say a gold v16 NMG setup. It also synergizes extremely well with a stamina DK using Molten Armaments and Spawn of Mephala.

35k is also very low for end game in the current patch, most properly functioning stamina builds are now breaking 40k with ease. I'm not sure how you got your numbers for the wearer apparently losing 4k DPS, but you should probably go try it before you just make up nonsensical numbers. There are obvious disadvantages that would need to be played around like twins, but you also wouldn't be using it since that fight is heavily AoE based as to single target.

Not to put you down, but you are not in core runs, and while Alkosh is not exactly 100%, it is at a high enough rate to out perform Sharpened from the testing I've gathered. Rakkhat has 18600 Physical Resit, reduced by the following;
-5280 Major Fracture
-1320 Minor Fracture
-2580 NMG
-1920 Infused Crusher
-2107 (70% up time Alkosh)
-3360 Sunder
-100 base
= -16667
leaves 1993 Phys resist, or 3.866% DPS to be gained from Sharpened . This also assumes you have no points put into Piercing Strikes, which is usually not the case.

Meanwhile end game stam builds run anywhere from 123% to 134% CHD in raid (223/234 with base 1 added), which multiplied by .075 (7.5% crit) is 9.225%-10.05% increase, which loses a little bit due to the remaining 1993 Phys Resist, which comes to a 8.857%-9.649% DPS boost.

Haha Gil you're funny.
1.A DK won't be running sunder flame, more like Morag or Toxic Defiance.
2. 40k on a fight with mechanics is not common Gil. Ive ran withcore I have a dps meter woth share enabled;)
3. I have no points into physical pen *no need with sharpened)
4. Then there is your crazy crit analysis. Where on earthe are you getting your numbers? Let's take a look at a stamplar 50 base, 12 trap, 10 Piercing Spear, 18.3 shadow, 8 % From CP. Total is 98.3. I'm assuming you're factoring in major force? Again I have yet to see major force be up every 9.5 seconds, but I'll be generous and say you have it up 20 put of every 30 seconds. This means a 1.2 multiplier. 1.2 x 98.3 = 118. Now that's on a templar with a passive modifier so a very crit favoring scenario. Now with endgame sets that stamplar is likely running anywhere fron 64.4 to 72.4 crit chance depending on race. Let's again assume a precise favoring scenario of him running 64.4 % crit chance. At 64.4% crit chance chance and 118% crit damage modifier you will average 1.76 times base damage. Now let's say we put on a precise staff. This puts us at 71.4% crit, or 1.84 times base damage. A 4.5% damage difference. Not sure how you are doing your math.
5. On a Stam build especially precise is weaker than it is on a magicka build due to lower crit damage modifier (more points in Thaumaturge since most are dot builds means less points in precise strikes) and higher average crit. This diminishes the importance of increasing crit chance. On a magicka build precise plays a much more important role, since the average magicka crit is lower than stam and the access to crit damage modifiers is higher.
6. Finally as for me not being in core runs that's just cute Gil...

1. That's the beauty, Morag benefits the entire group, the same as Sunderflame. Toxic Defiance is also a joke, try putting it together and you'll see it's extremely small in terms of overall DPS.
2. It wasn't last patch, although we had 2 people break 40k last patch on the final boss which is the most hectic fight in there.
3. Even with 1 sharpened weapon (2580) you're still over penetrating most mobs (except Boss mobs wearing Heavy Armor, which is extremely rare) with 0 points into Piercing with a proper composition. I'd certainly hope you don't have any points in it.
4. .5 Base, .1 NB or Templar passive, .12 Minor Force, .183 7/7 gold Divines with Shadow Mundus, ~.1 from Precise, which can be more or less depending on CP allocation. = 1.003 x (1.30) major force; 1.3039, which is rounded down to 130% (230% with base). Major Force in my experience with core CSH is 98.6% up time.
5. I'm not even going to get into it with you on this again, I still remember our previous discussion. Let's agree to disagree, I have numbers that prove otherwise for my parses, and you must have something that shows you differently as well.
6. Looking at the leaderboard for vMoL, you are on a younger and lower listed score, meaning you were not apart of the progression core team. I'm not trying to belittle you man, I'm just saying that your references are not applicable to mine as the runs I participate in have much more focus and overall min/maxing going on.

Perhaps you'd like to compare a parse of your Sharpened vs my Precise with the same gear and CP, and see which is higher?

Asayre · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

I tried it again with just a dagger and then with a 2H axe, just in case, and found that the ICD is 10 seconds.

Dagger

2H Axe

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

I tried it again with just a dagger and then with a 2H axe, just in case, and found that the ICD is 10 seconds.

Dagger

2H Axe

I eat my own words then. I used the character sheet instead of a combat log, the character sheet shows 8 seconds in between the proc, but once I finally turned on a combat log it was 10. My apologies, and thanks for taking the time to double check my mistakes.

It seems that damage based one's are on a 4 second ICD as well, I wonder if this means Crusher enchant follows the same ICD as weapon damage and is on a 10s ICD, as it never applied a debuff to the mob it was hit with on FTC. I guess with Infused it doesn't matter now that it has cool down reduction too but still.