Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

Personofsecrets

Woeler wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

No, we don't have to test crappy things to know that they are crappy. If you want to post indisputable proof that we aren't being nerfed, then make a comparison video.

You can't make claims on things you have not tested and then tell those who question you that they need to provide proof without theoretically having any proof yourself. Such arguments are called a "shift of the burden of proof" and fall in the category of logical fallacies.

I'm happy to have constructive discussions about what ZOS did, but not by just "assuming" stuff.

I would have to be wildly wrong for the conservative assumptions that I did make (2300 block cost/hit for example) to shift these tanking changes from being nerfs to buffs (or equal). I'm not wildly wrong.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Well if ZOS isn't gonna change it back maybe they can atleast add a passive the flatly reduces damage by 20%

Personofsecrets

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well if ZOS isn't gonna change it back maybe they can atleast add a passive the flatly reduces damage by 20%

What does that equal out to after diminished returns?

hrothbern

I did some testing on the new Blocking Costs per hit.

My estimation is that Blocking costs 2,210 Stamina per hit.
In live it is 2,160

Because FTC does not work (ESO crashes),
I did it in the following way: I increased my Stamina pool stepwise with 111 to a value that was almost precisely consumed after some hits on my Block.

With 11,066 Stamina, after 5 hits, I had a very small green arrow point remaining of Stamina.

11,066 : 5 = 2,213
Rounded down for the small amount of residual Stamina that becomes 2,210.

On this crashing when trying to check and measure things in PTS.
That will not make testing easier !!!!
Am I the only one having issues with FTC ?

Personofsecrets

You might be able to use combat log statistics add on to find stamina lost after a block. That is the add on that I normally use. I'll probably download PTS in the next few days.

hrothbern

.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

You might be able to use combat log statistics add on to find stamina lost after a block. That is the add on that I normally use. I'll probably download PTS in the next few days.

Does CLS shows Stamina pool values over time or Stamina usage ?

Personofsecrets

actually the add on is combat cloud, and no, you would have to write it down on a spread sheet to compare the values.

hrothbern

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actually the add on is combat cloud, and no, you would have to write it down on a spread sheet to compare the values.

Ok, well I use only FTC and CLS, so I repeated the test with enough Stamina added stepwise to handle 6 hits instead of 5

That turned out to be 13,175 and the remaining Stamina was just a couple of green pixels in the normal ESO UI.
So more precise than my first testing because of less Stamina left over and more hits to divide by.

So the calculation becomes now 13,175 : 6 = 2,196

And because there was still a tiny bit of Stamina left over, the true value must be a little bit lower.

Personofsecrets

hrothbern wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actually the add on is combat cloud, and no, you would have to write it down on a spread sheet to compare the values.

Ok, well I use only FTC and CLS, so I repeated the test with enough Stamina added stepwise to handle 6 hits instead of 5

That turned out to be 13,175 and the remaining Stamina was just a couple of green pixels in the normal ESO UI.
So more precise than my first testing because of less Stamina left over and more hits to divide by.

So the calculation becomes now 13,175 : 6 = 2,196

And because there was still a tiny bit of Stamina left over, the true value must be a little bit lower.

Well, the regular current cost is 2160. Maybe it didn't actually get changed. Make sure that you don't have block cost CP, absorb magic on the skill bar, block cost enchants, or the fortress passive active.

hrothbern

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actually the add on is combat cloud, and no, you would have to write it down on a spread sheet to compare the values.

Ok, well I use only FTC and CLS, so I repeated the test with enough Stamina added stepwise to handle 6 hits instead of 5

That turned out to be 13,175 and the remaining Stamina was just a couple of green pixels in the normal ESO UI.
So more precise than my first testing because of less Stamina left over and more hits to divide by.

So the calculation becomes now 13,175 : 6 = 2,196

And because there was still a tiny bit of Stamina left over, the true value must be a little bit lower.

Well, the regular current cost is 2160. Maybe it didn't actually get changed. Make sure that you don't have block cost CP, absorb magic on the skill bar, block cost enchants, or the fortress passive active.

The build I tested with was naked except for a costume:
Also no CP, only strife slotted and blocking with his bare fists.

Xsorus

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Dyride

Woeler wrote: »

I'm too uninformed at the moment to have a decent opinion. I first need to see what sturdy does in combination with the extra resource gain from the other passives.

I haven't been able to test yet, but they did say there was a base increase on blocking, then you can get -24% (3%*8 Legendary Sturdy w/ Shield) to supposedly offset the Bracing change. This probably ends up close to flat with live but then you are giving up all of your gear traits.

I wouldn't guess that this is comparable to the dps gain you get from the new passive but it is still shifting away from the tanking role towards being another dps/offtank.

Personofsecrets

hrothbern wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actually the add on is combat cloud, and no, you would have to write it down on a spread sheet to compare the values.

Ok, well I use only FTC and CLS, so I repeated the test with enough Stamina added stepwise to handle 6 hits instead of 5

That turned out to be 13,175 and the remaining Stamina was just a couple of green pixels in the normal ESO UI.
So more precise than my first testing because of less Stamina left over and more hits to divide by.

So the calculation becomes now 13,175 : 6 = 2,196

And because there was still a tiny bit of Stamina left over, the true value must be a little bit lower.

Well, the regular current cost is 2160. Maybe it didn't actually get changed. Make sure that you don't have block cost CP, absorb magic on the skill bar, block cost enchants, or the fortress passive active.

The build I tested with was naked except for a costume:
Also no CP, only strife slotted and blocking with his bare fists.

That would mean that they increased block cost by less than 36 points per block.

Personofsecrets

That increased cost nerf wont matter at all so long as you have found the right number.

Refuse2GrowUp

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

Xsorus

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

hrothbern

.

Dyride wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I'm too uninformed at the moment to have a decent opinion. I first need to see what sturdy does in combination with the extra resource gain from the other passives.

I haven't been able to test yet, but they did say there was a base increase on blocking, then you can get -24% (3%*8 Legendary Sturdy w/ Shield) to supposedly offset the Bracing change. This probably ends up close to flat with live but then you are giving up all of your gear traits.

I wouldn't guess that this is comparable to the dps gain you get from the new passive but it is still shifting away from the tanking role towards being another dps/offtank.

Well, ZOS increased the Armor Resist from the Weapon Defensive trait.
It was for S&B 6% of your Armor and now it is 2.5k, which is higher.

But yes, the classic Tank loses either Armor Resistance with Sturdy traits or has to handle higher Stamina costs of blocking between multiple opponents hitting him. Against one or two opponents Constitution balances back.
Or loses Infused/Divines depending on the build.

The effects being different for DK or NB Tanks.

Personofsecrets

Thanks for writing the new defensive trait value. Good to see that it isn't an outright nerf, but weighted will probably be mandatory...

Xsorus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

And we lose alot more stamina per block for not having the bracing passive.

Xsorus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

And we lose alot more stamina per block for not having the bracing passive.

You can technically gain it back in PVE by using the Block Cost reduction trait..which means you come out net possitive.

In PvP the new change is way more superior....Hell esp if you're a DK.

hrothbern

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Thanks for writing the new defensive trait value. Good to see that it isn't an outright nerf, but weighted will probably be mandatory...

yeah the Decisive trait to replace Weighted.

From Gina's patch notes:
Weighted: This trait now grants you a chance to gain additional Ultimate whenever you generate Ultimate normally, and has been renamed to Decisive.

From the tooltip (gold CP 160, one-handed weapon):
When you gain Ultimate you have a 17% chance to gain one additional Ultimate.
That tooltip leaves undefined whether it is per Ultimate, or whether special Ultimate gains from Blood Spawn or Heroic Slash count as well for that 17% additional.

Gina's notes are better defined than the tooltip
According to Gina's notes you gain on average 0.17 additional Ultimates per the 3 Ultimates you generate normally per second.
That is an increase from 3 to 3.51 Ultimates per second. Not overwhelming imo. And a Tank has most of the time only a one-handed Weapon. But keeping Agressive Horn up is important !

With a two-handed Weapon you get 34% on the tooltip, which is an increase from 3 to 4 Ultimates per second, which starts to count.

Djeriko

I'm actually fine with the way stamina works now that they made it so people can't perma block. I was skeptical at first but it makes you have to actually use skill to determine what really needs to be blocked. However when it comes to survivability you would think sword and board with 7 heavy would be best.

Back when DK tanks had miss chance from Cinder Storm a tank could withstand pretty heavy punishment but people complained about how they didn't understand when miss chance occurred and devs threw it out. Yet we also see miss chance thrown into PVE every now and then from npc enemies so the mechanics are still there. My idea of adding a bonus of Dodge Chance our even better Minor Protection to DK while standing in Cinder Storms aoe would greatly enhance the "tankiness" at least for DKs. They can take back their distance casting ability and give me something like how the Templar Channeling Rune skill works where you cast it on the ground where you are and receive the buff while still doing the the dot and snares.

Wifeaggro13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

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I know that so many of you have different ideas about tanking, but let me still ask the following question. Do tanks really need to get nerfed more?

Nope. they need buffs

Razorback174

Should we just scrap the new and improved group finder now too? Just make everyone designated DPS. To hell with anyone trying to play anything else! DPS checks for everyone!!!

Who is in charge of these design decisions?! They wonder why there is a scarcity of healers and tanks (especially tanks) in this game, then proceed to nerf anything not DPS related into oblivion. Good healing skills that keep you alive? NERF! Blocking to survive waves of mobs in dungeons? NERF! But we increased the damage on what used to be a utility skill by 485%, that should even it out!

My time with the finder has spoken volumes about the stupidity of this whole design. My tank can get a group in under a minute, my healer can get one in about 5-10 minutes. DPS? Hours. Literally. I have given up using it on my DPS characters entirely. Is it ignorance or arrogance that these devs don't see something inherently wrong with this situation?

I think I've gone off on one of these rants way too many times. Blocking in IC, Templar healing nerfs in TG, the list goes on. Everything seems to be coming one step closer to nothing but a DPS race from start to finish.

They say they want more tanks in this game, and yet this is what we get. Diversity be damned.

"LF1M tank"

Woeler

Alright so, I went in and did my usual testing in WGT in the trashgroups. For my feelings (and I've been playing tank since beta) the stamina block costs now is a little more than what it was before, BUT the return you get from constitution feels like a whole lot compared to live. Normally I would not see my stamina bar go back up, but now you definitely notice it going back up when blocking. Besides that there is more shifting in my stamina bar to both sides it felt pretty natural.

I'm not even wearing perfect gear. Really curious to test out the sturdy trait. As for what I have seen we could actually end up with a more stable stamina pool than before.

Off to craft some gear now and see how it goes.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

And we lose alot more stamina per block for not having the bracing passive.

You can technically gain it back in PVE by using the Block Cost reduction trait..which means you come out net possitive.

In PvP the new change is way more superior....Hell esp if you're a DK.

which means you lose divines and infused.

Xsorus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

And we lose alot more stamina per block for not having the bracing passive.

You can technically gain it back in PVE by using the Block Cost reduction trait..which means you come out net possitive.

In PvP the new change is way more superior....Hell esp if you're a DK.

which means you lose divines and infused.

You don't need either of them as a Tank.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Yeap; I was doing Reactive/Fury setup on my DK..but i will probably switch to Blackrose/Fury setup.

Great, but this is horrible for proper group synergy. Tavas, Bloodspawn, Worm Cult or Hircines...you should be able to tank while wearing stuff that will help you buff your team...especially for trials. You should not be forced to wear a specific set just to be able to do your job, all because of a patch nerf. The whole play your way goes farrrrrrrrr out the window~

I'm talking about PvP.

Trials you'll not have any trouble with Stamina anyway most likely.

Oh, we should get nerfed then to exactly the point where we start to have trouble.

You now gain back a lot more stamina while actually blocking..That's a fairly useful ability.

And we lose alot more stamina per block for not having the bracing passive.

You can technically gain it back in PVE by using the Block Cost reduction trait..which means you come out net possitive.

In PvP the new change is way more superior....Hell esp if you're a DK.

which means you lose divines and infused.

You don't need either of them as a Tank.

Yes you do need base stats and magic regeneration as a tank. We don't need to be nerfed as tanks.