Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

Refuse2GrowUp

In regards to this change, it seems it would benefit full stamina tanks more than magicka or hybrid tanks. I wonder how magicka tanks with very little stamina or hybrid tanks, using hikeijos, will fare now. We really relied on the block cost reduction, and I am not sure the regen will compensate for the hit on resource management. Can anyone on PTS please test and provide some feedback.

If it turns out that magicka or hybrid tanking is even less viable now, then I really hope this change is fully or partially reverted.

Personofsecrets

Well, based on my math all tanks will lose important stats in exchange for unimportant stats with the changes.

tpanisiakb16_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I know that so many of you have different ideas about tanking, but let me still ask the following question. Do tanks really need to get nerfed more?

Thanks for including me. I almost exclusively tank in game. Coincidentally, my enjoyment level in ESO has dropped substantially in the last few months. I'm not struggling in any content, and for giggles I'm wearing a full set of Hist Bark made in Trinimac's style, along with Glory's pieces for the 4-set. I no longer run a monster helm. I can manage my resources just fine as a stamina DK tank. The armor I'm wearing is for aesthetics, and not for utility for functionality.

However, none of this is fun. I've long since argued since the stamina regen nerf that stam tanking would be reduced to "standing there and permablocking", which is interesting because that's what they promised they wanted to get away from, because it's not fun, or exciting. Yet, the very best way to counter the stam nerf is to stack stamina and taunt everything and perma block, drop my ultimate, 10s I stand there and let the group beat on me, regen my stamina due to passives and not doing anything, then repeat. Now and again I spam igneous shield to convert my magicka to stamina. I never ask for shards, I don't need to be babysat with axes, etc., etc.

This is not fun. It's effective, yes, and on one hand my healer can compete with my DPS but it's boring as hell for me.

For new tanks everything is crippling, which is why we have a problem with finding tanks. Likewise, mediocre tanks need to rely on shard feeding which thereby makes all other healing roles obsolete. It's a lose / lose for the community as a whole.

The stamina nerf and the continuing nerfs to tanking mean I stack more stamina and do less things for a group other than clumping everything up and let them beat on me as my other team mates mop the floor. For new tanks it's a slap in the face, it's discouraging, and the community has less experienced people because of it.

I really, really don't think ZOS understand how we, the players, tank and they have a totally different idea of what tanking should be. I constantly ask these questions to them in AMA and otherwise but I receive no response.

We don't need to be nerfed more. We need a more active, challenging, and dynamic role.

Cinbri

In addition that things like block, CC break and dodgeroll now cost even more.

Personofsecrets

I just read that champion points are staying the same. That means we don't even get any additional CP to make up for the nerf. Keep in mind that the spirit of the CP system shouldn't be catching up to the developer bestowed nerfs.

NBrookus

My regular groups don't play on PTS, so I will likely have to wait until live to see what the final effects are. The paper math looks very bad; we are going to have to give up resources and play the "watch your resource bars" game even more. There are simply too many encounters where you CAN'T drop block because you are taking too many big hits too quickly. (Axes in AA, for one.) Magicka shields -- also nerfed -- just aren't big enough to absorb the damage and mitigation is not high enough to take the hits unblocked.

OTOH, Hakeijos are only 5000 TV at the new Tel-Var merchant; so there is some potential there. They aren't going to be rare and expensive any more.

I don't mind regearing to get better or to try a new playstyle; I've had some ideas but have been waiting to DB changes to decide.

At this point, if I have to completely regear to be worse or stay the same... I just won't be regearing as a tank. If I'm not tanking, then no trials or dungeons for me and there's one less reason to bother logging in.

Personofsecrets

Cinbri wrote: »

In addition that things like block, CC break and dodgeroll now cost even more.

Thank you. Dodge roll especially is an important tool for tanks and the increased cost of doing so will sting.

zerosingularity

Now that I have given it more thought, I can imagine a scenario.

I drain more stamina, but thanks to constitution, I regain more magicka. Now I can swap a mag recovery glyph for more block cost reduction.

Will this be balanced? Probably not, but hopefully it helps.

*In before Engine Guardian, that set should NOT be required to tank.

DKsUnite

(PVP Perspective) On one hand, the 200 SD/WD when taking damage means that the DPS loss you get in HA is mitigated somewhat BUT on the other hand, without the ability to block and the fact that resistances mean fairly little, you need to change all your armour enchants now to sturdy and this just opens you up to get slaughtered by a ganker/any crit burst.

What this means for my light armour mDK though is that i can now do a full perma block light armour build and not see a difference between that and heavy. So in essence, you have really just buffed light/medium armour builds and nerfed HA.

Personofsecrets

zerosingularity wrote: »

Now that I have given it more thought, I can imagine a scenario.

I drain more stamina, but thanks to constitution, I regain more magicka. Now I can swap a mag recovery glyph for more block cost reduction.

Will this be balanced? Probably not, but hopefully it helps.

*In before Engine Guardian, that set should NOT be required to tank.

3000 magic, on a toon with 20k stam (maybe the average?) is equal to 1000 stamina for a dk. In a way the magic given by Constitution will be worth (for me) around 750 stamina plus 250 stamina via the magic conversion. The math still isn't going to add up to be equal that way on a single target fight. The math will still get much worse when taking attacks from more than 1 enemy.

Pirhana7_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn

Bracing is the currently, in my opinion, the best heavy armor passive. I consider it the best passive because it adds a stat that is normally inefficient to add to in an efficient way.

We also have a direct nerf in the form of increased block cost.

In exchange for this, with respect to resources, you have offered an armor trait that lowers the cost of blocking, made a minor change to constitution, and made a minor change to heavy attacks.

I predict that these changes will skew fights even more toward the resource insufficiency of the tanking skill lines.

In the future, suppose that I am attacked once every 1.5 seconds. That is a normal number of times to be attacked by a single enemy. Over 4 seconds I will generate about 700 stamina via constitution. I will also lose about 4300 stamina assuming only that the new and increased block cost is 2300/hit and that I only am receiving block cost mitigation via sword and shield.

Currently, given those same circumstances, but with the current constitution value, current bracing, and current block cost, I'll gain about 250 stamina over 4 seconds and lose about 2900 stamina.

The difference between the circumstances is that, in the future, I will be at a 3600 stamina deficit after 4 seconds and currently I will be at a 2650 stamina deficit after 4 seconds. After 4 seconds, in the future I will have 1000 less stamina than I currently have. Additionally, this disparity is based on a conservative calculation. It is based on a single target fight. Because of losing the best passive ability of heavy armor in exchange for nothing, fights with multiple enemies attacking will cause stamina in the future to suffer at even greater disparity rate than the one that I just calculated based on a single target fight. Things aren't looking pretty.

And let's say that the sturdy trait helps. But at what cost is that help? Well I personally would lose magic regeneration in order to gain block cost mitigation. Let's say that the increase in stamina generated via heavy attacks helps. But at what cost is that help. Less blocking is equal to more dying. We suffer these consequences all for some weapon and spell damage that will ultimately be inconsequential to tanking.

Let's further make the same error that has been made before about tanking being made more easy due to champion points and is therefore needing to be nerfed to remain challenging. Perhaps tanking would be more easy with a grand 50 champion points added (17 of which will be practically useless), but how exactly do tanks become more powerful with champion points when, every time we get champion points, we are drastically nerfed?

You know, I thought that after the official thread dedicated to making tanking better the development team would get it through their thick skulls that tanks are dead tired of micro-managing their stamina. Did anyone ask for you to nerf bracing? To the contrary I've been saying it is the best passive skill for tanks. It is the premier reason to wear heavy armor.

Pardon my brashness, but what the hell are you thinking?

P.S. Nobody wants to do fully charged heavy attacks. Nobody. They aren't fun. Nobody. Normally companies cater to what their base wants. For some reason you didn't get the news letter on that key business practice when it comes to fully charged heavy attacks.

P.P.S. My proposed solution to this new problem that you have created is just to leave bracing alone. I will swallow the increased block cost if you just leave our best passive ability as it is rather than making it amount to a hill of beans.

Have you even gone onto the PTS and tested it yet?????? I dont think you realize how effective the changes are they made.

The passive regain trait when you get hit gives you more stamina back every 4 seconds than you were losing from blocking before. You are also getting a big boost of magika on top of that.

I have yet to try the blocking reduction buff but someone already said you only need to put it on 2 pieces to make up the loss. This can be on the 2 small items like your belt and gloves with minimal "rienforce" trait loss. Now if you combine that with the passive from above you get a major buff to blocking.

Refuse2GrowUp

DKsUnite wrote: »

What this means for my light armour mDK though is that i can now do a full perma block light armour build and not see a difference between that and heavy. So in essence, you have really just buffed light/medium armour builds and nerfed HA.

Will be very interesting to see if the devs just f'd up and introduced perma-blocking again

Ishammael

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

zerosingularity

Personofsecrets wrote: »

zerosingularity wrote: »

Now that I have given it more thought, I can imagine a scenario.

I drain more stamina, but thanks to constitution, I regain more magicka. Now I can swap a mag recovery glyph for more block cost reduction.

Will this be balanced? Probably not, but hopefully it helps.

*In before Engine Guardian, that set should NOT be required to tank.

3000 magic, on a toon with 20k stam (maybe the average?) is equal to 1000 stamina for a dk. In a way the magic given by Constitution will be worth (for me) around 750 stamina plus 250 stamina via the magic conversion. The math still isn't going to add up to be equal that way on a single target fight. The math will still get much worse when taking attacks from more than 1 enemy.

Agreed that is just gets much worse in a mob.

You know why the bracing was nerfed right? It's because the remaining tanks are too good.

WolfingHour

Tanking gets hit again, when it's already becoming more and more irrelevant. Dungeons are made even easier. Everyone and their mother have a castable shield that can block anything. Bows heal. Silver leashes reverse pulls. Puryfing circles do damage. We can guard party members SO THEY CAN DO EVEN MORE DAMAGE.

I'm more and more fed up with this watered down mess of a MMO. Just call it TES VI and be done with it.

Personofsecrets

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn

Bracing is the currently, in my opinion, the best heavy armor passive. I consider it the best passive because it adds a stat that is normally inefficient to add to in an efficient way.

We also have a direct nerf in the form of increased block cost.

In exchange for this, with respect to resources, you have offered an armor trait that lowers the cost of blocking, made a minor change to constitution, and made a minor change to heavy attacks.

I predict that these changes will skew fights even more toward the resource insufficiency of the tanking skill lines.

In the future, suppose that I am attacked once every 1.5 seconds. That is a normal number of times to be attacked by a single enemy. Over 4 seconds I will generate about 700 stamina via constitution. I will also lose about 4300 stamina assuming only that the new and increased block cost is 2300/hit and that I only am receiving block cost mitigation via sword and shield.

Currently, given those same circumstances, but with the current constitution value, current bracing, and current block cost, I'll gain about 250 stamina over 4 seconds and lose about 2900 stamina.

The difference between the circumstances is that, in the future, I will be at a 3600 stamina deficit after 4 seconds and currently I will be at a 2650 stamina deficit after 4 seconds. After 4 seconds, in the future I will have 1000 less stamina than I currently have. Additionally, this disparity is based on a conservative calculation. It is based on a single target fight. Because of losing the best passive ability of heavy armor in exchange for nothing, fights with multiple enemies attacking will cause stamina in the future to suffer at even greater disparity rate than the one that I just calculated based on a single target fight. Things aren't looking pretty.

And let's say that the sturdy trait helps. But at what cost is that help? Well I personally would lose magic regeneration in order to gain block cost mitigation. Let's say that the increase in stamina generated via heavy attacks helps. But at what cost is that help. Less blocking is equal to more dying. We suffer these consequences all for some weapon and spell damage that will ultimately be inconsequential to tanking.

Let's further make the same error that has been made before about tanking being made more easy due to champion points and is therefore needing to be nerfed to remain challenging. Perhaps tanking would be more easy with a grand 50 champion points added (17 of which will be practically useless), but how exactly do tanks become more powerful with champion points when, every time we get champion points, we are drastically nerfed?

You know, I thought that after the official thread dedicated to making tanking better the development team would get it through their thick skulls that tanks are dead tired of micro-managing their stamina. Did anyone ask for you to nerf bracing? To the contrary I've been saying it is the best passive skill for tanks. It is the premier reason to wear heavy armor.

Pardon my brashness, but what the hell are you thinking?

P.S. Nobody wants to do fully charged heavy attacks. Nobody. They aren't fun. Nobody. Normally companies cater to what their base wants. For some reason you didn't get the news letter on that key business practice when it comes to fully charged heavy attacks.

P.P.S. My proposed solution to this new problem that you have created is just to leave bracing alone. I will swallow the increased block cost if you just leave our best passive ability as it is rather than making it amount to a hill of beans.

Have you even gone onto the PTS and tested it yet?????? I dont think you realize how effective the changes are they made.

The passive regain trait when you get hit gives you more stamina back every 4 seconds than you were losing from blocking before. You are also getting a big boost of magika on top of that.

I have yet to try the blocking reduction buff but someone already said you only need to put it on 2 pieces to make up the loss. This can be on the 2 small items like your belt and gloves with minimal "rienforce" trait loss. Now if you combine that with the passive from above you get a major buff to blocking.

No, we don't have to test crappy things to know that they are crappy. People said the same thing about no stam-regen while blocking and they ended up horrendously misguided. I refuse to humor the idea that we have to test to know. My math isn't going to be wrong enough to the point that testing shows something unexpected. Others in this thread have already been testing the change and over time more of them will only to find that we end up in greater resource deficits in the future than what we currently have.

Personofsecrets

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

No, we don't have to test crappy things to know that they are crappy. If you want to post indisputable proof that we aren't being nerfed, then make a comparison video.

Personofsecrets

DKsUnite wrote: »

(PVP Perspective) On one hand, the 200 SD/WD when taking damage means that the DPS loss you get in HA is mitigated somewhat BUT on the other hand, without the ability to block and the fact that resistances mean fairly little, you need to change all your armour enchants now to sturdy and this just opens you up to get slaughtered by a ganker/any crit burst.

What this means for my light armour mDK though is that i can now do a full perma block light armour build and not see a difference between that and heavy. So in essence, you have really just buffed light/medium armour builds and nerfed HA.

I don't really follow your thought experiment, but yes, usually the other armor types benefit at heavy armors expense.

Personofsecrets

zerosingularity wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

zerosingularity wrote: »

Now that I have given it more thought, I can imagine a scenario.

I drain more stamina, but thanks to constitution, I regain more magicka. Now I can swap a mag recovery glyph for more block cost reduction.

Will this be balanced? Probably not, but hopefully it helps.

*In before Engine Guardian, that set should NOT be required to tank.

3000 magic, on a toon with 20k stam (maybe the average?) is equal to 1000 stamina for a dk. In a way the magic given by Constitution will be worth (for me) around 750 stamina plus 250 stamina via the magic conversion. The math still isn't going to add up to be equal that way on a single target fight. The math will still get much worse when taking attacks from more than 1 enemy.

Agreed that is just gets much worse in a mob.

You know why the bracing was nerfed right? It's because the remaining tanks are too good.

I do know of some tanks that enjoy being nerfed. Thankfully they seem to be in the minority.

WolfingHour

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Skewing builds towards a single set is never a good thing in my book.

Personofsecrets

WolfingHour wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

Skewing builds towards a single set is never a good thing in my book.

Plus people should consider the silliness of claiming that things are more or less equal when they have to swap out their preferred tanking 5 piece for the Black Rose set. In the case of losing Tava's Favor, it is like losing 40k DPS in a top tier 12 man raid in exchange for Black Rose resources. No raid will want someone running Black Rose over Tava's.

Maddux

The Stamina Regen Nerf with Imperial City has looked bad but almost everyone has found a Way to play with it. After all that Months of Practice, i just need Shards on Leaderboardruns because spaming Rapid Maneuver costs a lot of Stamina.
I wasnt on the PTS yet and had no Time to test the new Passives by myself and maybe it isnt that bad like the Stamina Regen Nerf wasnt that bad.
But what you shoudnt forget is that most of the People arguing here are experienced Tanks and Players that can find a Way to play around a Nerf. Other Players and especially newer Players are not and nerfing Tanks again or let them learn the hard Way how to play around it wont help to get a higher Population of Tanks in this Game.
Im still pissed that i will get a 15 Minutes Qeue Timer if i have to leave a shity Randomgroup that was created via the Grouptool. The Possibility to face a lot of Tanks that are running out of Stamina quickly isnt something that will let me use the Tool more often.

Personofsecrets

Thank you for that nuance @Maddux . Nobody will ever argue that tanking is about to be impossible. I personally will argue that is just going to become nerfed and since I don't like tanking nerfs I am against the change.

GeertKarel

Next week when it comes on PTS for eu I will test it on my own char. like woeler said before the 20% might not be 20% actually but 20% from the remaining block cost after reduction of block cost rings. We will see what happens.

Personofsecrets

@ettenmoor , forgot you almost.

Wing

btw the sturdy trait is now:

base 1% block cost reduction, then 1.5, 2, 2.5, and finally 3% per location at gold armor

a full set of sturdy armor and shield all gold is 24% block cost reduction.

its moved out of heavy armor and into a trait.

that could be cool for med armor tanks too.

Personofsecrets

GeertKarel wrote: »

Next week when it comes on PTS for eu I will test it on my own char. like woeler said before the 20% might not be 20% actually but 20% from the remaining block cost after reduction of block cost rings. We will see what happens.

Thanks for dropping by Geert. Can you explain what you mean please? I don't quite understand your post, but is it with regards to diminished returns?

Personofsecrets

Wing wrote: »

btw the sturdy trait is now:

base 1% block cost reduction, then 1.5, 2, 2.5, and finally 3% per location at gold armor

a full set of sturdy armor and shield all gold is 24% block cost reduction.

its moved out of heavy armor and into a trait.

that could be cool for med armor tanks too.

Good point about medium (or light for that matter), fellows.

Woeler

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

No, we don't have to test crappy things to know that they are crappy. If you want to post indisputable proof that we aren't being nerfed, then make a comparison video.

You can't make claims on things you have not tested and then tell those who question you that they need to provide proof without theoretically having any proof yourself. Such arguments are called a "shift of the burden of proof" and fall in the category of logical fallacies.

I'm happy to have constructive discussions about what ZOS did, but not by just "assuming" stuff.

Personofsecrets

Woeler wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

OP, you need to get onto PTS and test the new changes. The improvement to Constitution is really, really good. Black Rose is now a ridiculously good set. The bonus damage from being hit is good, and 8% healing is excellent.

No, we don't have to test crappy things to know that they are crappy. If you want to post indisputable proof that we aren't being nerfed, then make a comparison video.

You can't make claims on things you have not tested and then tell those who question you that they need to provide proof without theoretically having any proof yourself. Such arguments are called a "shift of the burden of proof" and fall in the category of logical fallacies.

I'm happy to have constructive discussions about what ZOS did, but not by just "assuming" stuff.

I did theoretically prove my idea about the nerf via the calculation that I offered. The people saying to test this on the PTS are the ones failing to accept my evidence. One doesn't have to taste a turd to know that it foul to the tongue.