good new Fengrush video for you

Ajax_22

vamp_emily wrote: »

Maybe they should just do away with PvP and make ESO a PvE only game.

CU beta is coming out really really soon ( not confirmed date: 4/8 ). I guess in a year from now I can go over to their forurms and say:

Listen to me fix your bugs! I have been a backer since Alpha!

But really, I don't think I need to watch Fengrush's video. I think I already know what he said:

F this, F that, remove AOE caps. I have been playing since Beta and you should listen to me .

Am I right?

Actually, you don't know what he said. If you are not going to watch the video, and participate in a discussion on the subject matter of the video, then please take your flame war attempts elsewhere.

Pallio

Yeah thought he quit, all I saw on his videos was how much he hates this or that. Stam Sorc is frustrating to be sure, but, there are many other options out there, than just complaining about every other effective build asking for them to be nerfed or yours to be improved....

Myxril

[snip]
Anyhow, I admittedly didn't watch this video, but I watched the recorded stream it was from, so I'm not keen on the actual specificity regarding the topic points he mentioned that are encompassed by this thread.

However, recalling the stream in its entirety, the only bit of anything I can add to the discussion is just raising my eyebrows, powerfrowning and meganodding. Maybe a few "mmhmm" and "yup" here and there.
It does summarize everything nicely, albeit over a stretch of time due to the medium it was on (twitch).

Put into a terse YouTube video, it would more or less be:
ESO was great
Bots arrived
Bots were wrecked
Cyrodiil went into a coma
The doctors say it will never wake up
The doctors are providing it as much comfort as possible
Meanwhile, bugs have been around forever
Skills break
Other stuff breaks
This breaks, that breaks, breaks break
Updates/fixes come in too large of a package and too infrequently
Blahblahblah.

I can't type anything that really hasn't already been addressed, and I think the dead horse has been a fine mist on the ground for a while. Somebody hold me while I cry. T.T
I'm never going to get the AP for those motif chapters, and I refuse to pay some 400k+ in total for them. ruh-dig-oh-luzzz

[edited for bait]

Mojomonkeyman

Thank you for the continuous efforts and contribution, fengrush.

Not exactly a fan, but I think you deserve respect for that. I watched and I agree with most if not all of the points you brought up.

BR

Korah_Eaglecry

Myxril wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I have my doubts that it was "the anti-bot" code that changed anything.

It used to be "the lighting patch broke pvp" and now he's on the "the anti-bot code" broke pvp.

Ive been saying its the anti-bot since forever, I never once believed in the lighting patch being the cause (that would lower FPS potentially, sure, but not affect ping or server connection, thats all rendered client side from your own hard drive)

But the anti-bot affects client/server messaging.


Let me elaborate.

The lighting patch updated textures/graphics. All of these files are stored on your HDD on your computer in the various files in the ESO programfiles folder. When the game calls for things to be displayed (and this is brief, example only, and definitely not proper syntax), it looks something like this

Get packet from server (server tells client to display graphic1, graphic2, graphic3
Your client calls your HDD/CPU/Memory/Videocard to assemble those three graphics and display them on your screen. The better performing your machine, the less problems youd have. Your latency is completely irrelevant because the packet only tells your client WHAT to render, it doesnt contain the actual files. If you get behind the server in latency things just wouldnt display (like when you see black sillhouettes instead of people, or people just dont load, or siege sounds disappear)

The Anti-Bot patch is another animal. It detects multiple communications to the server (send/receive) that are repetitive or follow a known botting pattern. (x,y locations being identical, equally spaced action times, basically signs of automation, even the most accurate human will not replicate precision like a bot will)
This code effectively adds another check against every packet sent and recieved by the server, looking for such patterns. This consumes a LOT of cycle time, especially the higher the load becomes (large battles, lots of people on screen moving around in general, lots of chat traffic, lots of addon messaging traffic, etc)

Its not the information contained in the packets that should concern you (telling me to display graphic 1 or 2), its the time it takes the server to process packets that should, and the anti-bot code clearly would go further into performance degradation than any lighting patch would. Hell on a high end machine you wouldnt even notice the lighting patch difference, performance wise. But even a monster rig will feel the difference of an extra check cycle done to every connection/send/receive done.

Keep in mind, both features were released on the exact same patch (1.2.3), thus most people assumed it was the graphics updates that caused it

its always been the bot code. And I have always said so.

I always assumed when people said the lighting patch wrecked Cyro, that they were referring to the quietly-added anti-bot stuff and not the actual lighting change.
Because blaming the latter would be silly, outside of complaints of fps/performance loss.

This is the same place that every change to the game is blamed on NBs or Sorcerers or DKs...whatever is the flavor of the month Class at that time. This is the same place that goes out of its way to find something wrong with ZOS, including complaints about a harmless advertisement. So I can definitely believe the vast majority if not all of the people saying the lighting patch actually believed the changes to the textures and graphics was at work unless otherwise explicitly expressed. Most people on these forums are a mindless as the unorganized zergs in Cyrodiil. They read something and because theyre looking for something to blame or some drama train to hop on they believe every bit of what is nothing more than unfounded claims, rumor and opinions.

DaveMoeDee

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hate to have to do this but ferngrush is right. The movement calculations for players were moved from client side to server side to stop speed hacking and teleporting. Which caused problems with lag in situations like cyrodill where you have mass amounts of people in one area.

Are they server side? Sometimes I seem to lose my connection for a minute and I can move around all I want. I can't interact with things and there is no combat. Seems to only happen in delves. Then, I magically regain my ability to interact with things and combat resumes.

WalkingLegacy

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hate to have to do this but ferngrush is right. The movement calculations for players were moved from client side to server side to stop speed hacking and teleporting. Which caused problems with lag in situations like cyrodill where you have mass amounts of people in one area.

Are they server side? Sometimes I seem to lose my connection for a minute and I can move around all I want. I can't interact with things and there is no combat. Seems to only happen in delves. Then, I magically regain my ability to interact with things and combat resumes.

I have this happen all the time and eventually the game disconnects me. Sometimes it does catch up and I have an explosion of things happening on screen catching up.

Most the time though abilities don't work. All I can do is move around.

bowmanz607

M_TeK_9 wrote: »

Im not much for watching people like cypher or deltia because I think they give their build ideas too much praise and in turn convince the masses that there are no other ways to do it. I prefer spending my gold on respecs and trying things for myself however @FENGRUSH I respect your delivery of information. That being said I am not a pc or beta player and I would like to disagree with the pvp not being on a scale as large as it used to be part of your video. Skull of corruption ps4 NA has, for the last month or two, been a lagless warzone with 30-75 people per faction sieging and defending up to three keeps at a time all the time. My guild has worn "daggerfall elite" out by simply being better players but it has potential to become a focus of development yet. I usually forget to record the really epic *** because it lasts for two hours no breaks and because I'm simply zoned into the game, but the odd time I remember to catch a small fight. The odd time I'll catch a few spikes of lag but for the most part pvp has become serious on ps4. If you'd like to get in a good run and partake in some 2-8 hour siege wars I invite you to come join SVER True Bloods. I promise an experience you may not expect with this guild and for some background check please Google us. You won't be let down.

This video had over 50 individual daggerfall attacking us with 25-30 reinforcements that showed up and it was pretty smooth. I have other videos if greater fights but I haven't had the time to upload. Enjoy

https://youtu.be/G4H_6kQFAN0

30-75 people over 3 keep battles is not what he 8s talking about. He was talking about 300 people on screen at one time. While at the same time numerous other keep battles and field battles taking place with zero lag. Today, you can't even achieve these numbers in cyro cause pop was lowered and is split with IC. 300 people 9n one screen is just not possible today like it once was.

NobleNerd

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They have already said PVP will stay in cyrodill. DB is in kvatch which is on the gold coast. Thats not part of the ESO cyrodill map. So I dont know exactly who we will be killing but it wont be other players.

We already know that DB will not have players killing players. They already scrapped the PvP Justice System!

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Doncellius wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Maybe they should just do away with PvP and make ESO a PvE only game.

CU beta is coming out really really soon ( not confirmed date: 4/8 ). I guess in a year from now I can go over to their forurms and say:

Listen to me fix your bugs! I have been a backer since Alpha!

But really, I don't think I need to watch Fengrush's video. I think I already know what he said:

F this, F that, remove AOE caps. I have been playing since Beta and you should listen to me .

Am I right?

Oh look, a discussion about a video! Probably don't need to watch it or anything. Why pass up the opportunity to make an uninformed post? -vamp_emily

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO Please stop acting like a child.

Having an opinion is fine, but telling everyone what your opinion is ( especially if you did not "watch the video" ) so that means you have NO idea what was said and everything you have said in this discussion has been speculation of what was said really dilutes anything you say to the point of no one will even read what you post.

Since you have no substance, there is nothing you can say that is relevant if you speculate on a discussion. Your argument is like this:

I dont have to watch his videos to get the idea. Its called euphoric recall. only remember good things while forgetting the bad things. My opinion as far as what I have posted here has been in response to people like the guy in the video talking to me and asking me things. I also never said anything about right and wrong. So you saying I say I am right is ludicrous since its just opinion and not right or wrong.

If a discussion revolves around a specific video, common sense tells us you need to watch that video (or at least most parts of it) to know what is really discussed. This is called being "informed", so you can write legitimate posts others will take seriously.

You cannot join the discussion for the sole purpose of saying you know you're ignorant, but since it's your opinion too bad. Only mindless haters will even read your whole posts. Watch the video and respond with knowledge or don't aimlessly hate the streamer because he's a streamer.

The discussion doesnt revolve around the streamer. The discussion revovles around the ideas. So thanks for your advice again but please try and stick to the topic at hand which is not the streamer but the ideas being discussed herein.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

NobleNerd wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

They have already said PVP will stay in cyrodill. DB is in kvatch which is on the gold coast. Thats not part of the ESO cyrodill map. So I dont know exactly who we will be killing but it wont be other players.

We already know that DB will not have players killing players. They already scrapped the PvP Justice System!

Right ya. Thats what I was saying. I dont think DB will have any kind of PVP element whatsoever.

RedRoomGaming

Still NOTHING ABOUT POTATOES!

Dromede

I do miss spell crafting idea greatly. My original character was a stamina bosmer nightblade since pre-launch in late March 2014. That char is still barely v5 because i abandoned her.

Stamina builds sucked most of the time, but i was willing to put up with that because they announced spell crafting - make any skill you want, customize it. It was SO exciting. And i was really upset when it was officially taken off the table, just like pvp-based justice system.

This comes from a person who loves ESO very much. That's my main game i play. I've been subbed for 90% of the time since Tamriel Unlinited. Heck, even now i have a 6-month sub. I strongly believe in supporting financially and morally what you love and enjoy, but there needs to be a well argumented conversation about what the game once promised to be, what we paid money for.

Watch the video that Fengrush mentioned in the middle of his stream, the one from conference, one of those "The road ahead" and tell me it doesn't make you sad. Listen to how people cheered for previous version of Justice system, how cool those runes looked for spell crafting, how thought-out this content seemed to be. And now it's stuck on someone's computer, half-done and completely useless. Tell me it doesn't make you feel sad

Woeler

Is this guy supposed to be somebody important? Because I'm pretty sure he isn't.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

If something is faulty because multiple executions are calling the same data, the simple solution is to make the code threadsafe or place race restrictions on the code. I would guess this was already done.

Still think client to server is not the issue but here ya go...

If the fix ended up moving handles from client to server as a way to combat bots. It won't work as most bots are automation programs that perform the same activities a human player would from a third party program. However, critical data for bot hackers, exploiters can still be stored in the clients memory if it has it's own security measures that sync with the online server.

This is quite common with programs that require an online activation after purchase to work. Since this game can only function online, a similar practice can work.

EXAMPLE: Since character data should be sent from the server in packets regularly. Data like my movement spend is sent as an integer which the client picks up. The data is always sent regularly, so even if I hacked the memory by giving myself 10000% movement speed; the next packet I will be sent from the server would immediately return the value to normal.

You can then have the client create a debug log as a simple string sent to the server every time the value had to be changed by a certain percentage. The max movement speed being 42% for example, if it changed by 43% the debug log would be sent. Otherwise the method to send the debug log would be ignored.

This allows the client to take some of the security responsibility in conjunction with the online server. Playability is always going to be a critical concern for gamers. I would say bots are merely an annoyance. If you chose to sacrifice playability to fight an annoyance, you made a mistake.

Autolycus

Some good points made in this video. I spend more time in pve than Fengrush does (which is fine, I do both and he does mostly pvp and that's just fine), and I can say confidently that most of the issues addressed in the video are not exclusive to Cyrodiil. There have been a lot of changes resulting from pvp imbalance that have destroyed entire builds in pve. Changes to skills and access to gear has never been perfect. For the first year of this game, if you were a pve player you pretty much had to pvp or sink a sizable chunk of gold to be at your prime for pve content. But the same has been true for the opposite as well, particularly more recently (prior to TG) where most of the BiS gear for both pvp and pve was found in pve content, and there has been a distinct lack of true pvp content introduced in this game since launch.

I remain a bit more hopeful than I perceive Fengrush to be for the future of this game. TG rolled out some fixes and updates that signify to me that we are headed the right direction. Do I think we're there yet? Not even close, imho. If we're to get to that point, we need routine server maintenance, regular (weekly or biweekly) class balancing, and more options for pvp (small-scale, non-seige, etc.) that isn't full of pve trash. Until the release of TG, I personally know many players who felt there was little to do in this game besides pvp. For the record, I do both forms of content and I enjoy them both a lot.

Right now, my biggest frustration (and I mean big, pure nerd rage from hell) with this game is my inability to clear a single dungeon, travel from one keep to the next (fighting involved or not) and not remain connected to the game. I tried to run vMoL a few nights ago with my guild and 2 of our group crashed 8+ times during the run. The same sh*t happens in pvp too, and it's beyond frustrating at this point, because it's been getting worse and worse for months.

I don't share the same views on class balance, but my opinions are not all that far off. At the very least, balance as it is today is closer to true balance than we've ever really been. Again, we're not there yet, and there are a lot of things that need to be updated.

All this being said, there is one particular point that Fengrush makes that I agree with in it's entirety, and I think it is very important for the rest of us who play this game. The instability, inefficiency, imbalance, etc. that exists in this game is not the fault of players. It doesn't matter if you do pvp, pve, or both; there is absolutely no reason for players to constantly trash each other, nor will it accomplish anything. I frequently remind people here that fighting with each other isn't going to fix anything. Classism and discrimination based on playstyle is immature and pointless. It's important for us to keep this in mind. We're all tired of seeing the "now children, remember to be polite on the forums" posts from the mods. Do you know why we are tired of seeing this? Because all we ever do here is fight and bicker with each other about stuff that ZOS needs to address. Ideally they would address this anyway, but let's give them one less reason to put it off, yeah?

Astrotaz

@ZOS_MattFiror Is he right ? Do you care?

Fix the game. Fix PVP.

Sinaptic

Good video @fengrush . I don't have to agree with all of your points to appreciate it. People need to watch it and form thir own opinions.

I do like your IC ideas but I think they could be implemented without a huge redesign of the environment. I think you should do some videos that focus on these topics. About how to improve what pvp has with a more concise focus. Your ideas are good and I think you might be able to improve the game.

bowmanz607

It is very obvious how many people not only did not watch the video posted, but how many people don't actually know the logical reasoning behind many of the issues and problems that Feng rush addresses in this video and throughout is time streaming. It 8s painfully obvious howany people simply hate on him for hating on him without being able to divorce their emotions from the objective evidence provided. It really is sad and I ptiy people that approach discussions like that. Further, it is a pity to see people counter logical arguments raised by others in support of Feng rush with "your a fan boy" or something along those lines. Can you people actually provide counter analysis to the issues that he mentioned? Or do you just disagree for the sake of disagreeing because that is exactly what it looks like. Sure he talks about a lot of negative things regarding the state of pvp often. That does not make it any less true. Have you played in pvp for longer than a second? If so, you would understand his and many others frustrations with the state of affairs.

Overall, @FENGRUSH I agree with most of what you had to say. There were so many times in this video, and others, that I would just shake my head and say exactly. I thought it was a thought out critic of the game in which you praised many aspects while honing in on the the issues that have been occurring in pvp for some time now. You give a voice to many who simply don't have the time and/or energy to put out videos explaining the problems. You are much appreciated for that.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

If something is faulty because multiple executions are calling the same data, the simple solution is to make the code threadsafe or place race restrictions on the code. I would guess this was already done.

Still think client to server is not the issue but here ya go...

{snipped for space}

Im just saying why they did what they did. Im not a programmer so I dont know the details. I just know whatever they did it worked.

mr_wazzabi

Ashtaris wrote: »

So just out of curiosity, how would people feel about having Cyrodiil such that there was nothing there that could be harvested? No nodes, bosses, or anything else where bots could take advantage of that area so that they could completely eliminate the anti-bot code for that zone. I'm sure they could set it up somehow so that particular zone could be made so the anti-bot code was removed.

Or if that's not possible, then just have the anti-bot code removed from Cyrodiil and let the bots roam free in that zone. After all, you are there to do PVP, not farm.

It would be better if we can just nuke the companies that create the bots, but unfortunately that might start a International incident with China

I wouldn't mind at all. We might get bots farming the delves though...

rotaugen454

Even if you had different code in Cyrodiil vs everywhere else (assuming this could be done), you'd then have bots farming every PvE spot to sell gold. Then again, having them all in such a limited space should make banning them a much easier task.

Autolycus

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Even if you had different code in Cyrodiil vs everywhere else (assuming this could be done), you'd then have bots farming every PvE spot to sell gold. Then again, having them all in such a limited space should make banning them a much easier task.

I actually agree completely with what Fengrush suggested for removing botters: hire more people and ban every single one of them. The way they are (were) profiting from botting is illegal and unethical anyway. No sympathy for the cheaters.

WalkingLegacy

Autolycus wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Even if you had different code in Cyrodiil vs everywhere else (assuming this could be done), you'd then have bots farming every PvE spot to sell gold. Then again, having them all in such a limited space should make banning them a much easier task.

I actually agree completely with what Fengrush suggested for removing botters: hire more people and ban every single one of them. The way they are (were) profiting from botting is illegal and unethical anyway. No sympathy for the cheaters.

First, employees would have to actually play the game. Baby steps

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Autolycus wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Even if you had different code in Cyrodiil vs everywhere else (assuming this could be done), you'd then have bots farming every PvE spot to sell gold. Then again, having them all in such a limited space should make banning them a much easier task.

I actually agree completely with what Fengrush suggested for removing botters: hire more people and ban every single one of them. The way they are (were) profiting from botting is illegal and unethical anyway. No sympathy for the cheaters.

Banning those guys is like playing whack a mole. You cannot just ban on an individual basis. You also cannot just blanket ban countries because they will simply use a proxy. Just not a feasible solution.

Evergnar

Wing wrote: »

I don't know what kind of strain the nodes put on it, but if it helped I would not mind seeing them go, its not a farm zone (unless farming players counts)

On this note I was wondering would it be possible to seperate PvP Cyrodiil from PvE Cyrodiil and have seperate instances/campaigns? PvE one with nodes & anti-bot measures and a PvP one without?

Tandor

Can I suggest that if someone posts a video and wants everyone to watch it (especially as a pre-condition of entering into the discussion), they don't open the topic by saying:-

"I recommend at least watching to ~17 min so you new people can see how things used to be."

Not only does it come across as intensely patronising to new players, but it also makes it quite clear that there''s no need for anyone who isn't a new player to even watch it to that point.

Given that introduction to the topic, it's absurd for veteran players to be criticised for joining in the discussion here without having watched the video!

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Tandor wrote: »

Can I suggest that if someone posts a video and wants everyone to watch it (especially as a pre-condition of entering into the discussion), they don't open the topic by saying:-

"I recommend at least watching to ~17 min so you new people can see how things used to be."

Not only does it come across as intensely patronising to new players, but it also makes it quite clear that there''s no need for anyone who isn't a new player to even watch it to that point.

Given that introduction to the topic, it's absurd for veteran players to be criticised for joining in the discussion here without having watched the video!

I agree that OP could have curated the video a little better. You don't need 17 minutes to participate in this discussion. If you are very familiar with PvP and this games history, you may not need any . But everyone can at least watch about three. His entire point is summarized HERE at 16min into the video.

I even transcribed it. OP if you are still reading, just copy this into your original title post.

I make this video and I show these things for a reason. A lot of people responding to my videos, they don't know the backstory of this game. They don't know how it went from something functional to something that got drastically changed; and when they made this change, they refused to roll it back. They said "It's more important to get rid of the bots, then have a functional Cyrodiil." And at the time, there were thousands. Thousands and thousands of people in Cyrodiil. It was huge! They would have like seven servers that held three times the population than they do today. Today, the servers hold maybe a third of the population of what they used to - and they run terribly. You could have 100v100v100 at one keep and it wasn't breaking. The game ran fluidly, it was an epic siege. That's the game they built. It's gone. They cant bring it back. There is no amount of changes that can bring it back. So the game they spent years developing, in one patch, they got rid of it - because of bad press.

The rest of the video just contains examples that demonstrate the above statement, if you require more evidence, then start from the beginning of the video and watch all the old PvP videos that confirm the claims in the aforementioned statement.

Jaronking

]

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

>OP posts vid.

>People that don't watch vid tell people they don't watch vid

>People that didn't watch vid are mad at vid they didn't watch.

>Nonvid watchers defend subjects within vid in which they cannot even confirm vid addressed cause they are nonvid watchers.

>ZOS locks thread cause nonvid watching people make thread hostile environment.

I didnt watch the video. Im not mad at the video nor the streamer. What gets topics locked are off topic personal attacks and slanderous statements.

If this is the criteria for getting a thread lock then most of your post in thread should be removed so this topic isn't locked by @Zos.

Ajax_22

Tandor wrote: »

Can I suggest that if someone posts a video and wants everyone to watch it (especially as a pre-condition of entering into the discussion), they don't open the topic by saying:-

"I recommend at least watching to ~17 min so you new people can see how things used to be."

Not only does it come across as intensely patronising to new players, but it also makes it quite clear that there''s no need for anyone who isn't a new player to even watch it to that point.

Given that introduction to the topic, it's absurd for veteran players to be criticised for joining in the discussion here without having watched the video!

No what's absurd is entering into a conversation about the topics discussed in a video, refusing to watch the video, and then derailing the thread with debates about why you should or shouldn't watch the video. If you have nothing to add on this discussion please go somewhere else.