good new Fengrush video for you

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Duiwel wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO Please stop acting like a child.

Having an opinion is fine, but telling everyone what your opinion is ( especially if you did not "watch the video" ) so that means you have NO idea what was said and everything you have said in this discussion has been speculation of what was said really dilutes anything you say to the point of no one will even read what you post.

Since you have no substance, there is nothing you can say that is relevant if you speculate on a discussion. Your argument is like this:

I dont have to watch his videos to get the idea. Its called euphoric recall. only remember good things while forgetting the bad things. My opinion as far as what I have posted here has been in response to people like the guy in the video talking to me and asking me things. I also never said anything about right and wrong. So you saying I say I am right is ludicrous since its just opinion and not right or wrong.

danno8

M_TeK_9 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

M_TeK_9 wrote: »

Im not much for watching people like cypher or deltia because I think they give their build ideas too much praise and in turn convince the masses that there are no other ways to do it. I prefer spending my gold on respecs and trying things for myself however @FENGRUSH I respect your delivery of information. That being said I am not a pc or beta player and I would like to disagree with the pvp not being on a scale as large as it used to be part of your video. Skull of corruption ps4 NA has, for the last month or two, been a lagless warzone with 30-75 people per faction sieging and defending up to three keeps at a time all the time. My guild has worn "daggerfall elite" out by simply being better players but it has potential to become a focus of development yet. I usually forget to record the really epic *** because it lasts for two hours no breaks and because I'm simply zoned into the game, but the odd time I remember to catch a small fight. The odd time I'll catch a few spikes of lag but for the most part pvp has become serious on ps4. If you'd like to get in a good run and partake in some 2-8 hour siege wars I invite you to come join SVER True Bloods. I promise an experience you may not expect with this guild and for some background check please Google us. You won't be let down.

This video had over 50 individual daggerfall attacking us with 25-30 reinforcements that showed up and it was pretty smooth. I have other videos if greater fights but I haven't had the time to upload. Enjoy

https://youtu.be/G4H_6kQFAN0

Not sure how you figure that was 75 enemies. I counted a full raid plus a few more at most.

Either way, what you will notice in this video is that group is not balling up and spamming tonnes of AoE skills (it's a typical disorganized pug zerg) and so you will not see much lag.

Also, I experience these kinds of lag free sieges everyday in Cyrodiil. It really is about playstyles of more organized groups that bring the server to it's knees.

There's a distance limit to which you can no longer see alliance icons above players. I see a lot more than the icons running around if you look closely. Not to mention you can always assume there are at least 10 invisible nightblades that come with every zerg.

And spamming aoe does nothing to large groups. The more people the more the aoe dmg divides so by not spamming aoe attacks and how they try and focus certain members of my guild I can tell you It was not a pug group. There are 4-5 daggerfall guilds in this campaign who we fight constantly and this was a combination of two. At the same time they had another raid group attacking another keep and almost took it until we rode there and pushed them back.

Are you by chance a victim in this clip?

I play PC.

And you make my point regardless of the validity of their tactics. They are not using AoE, like you say. That is the main reason there is no lag. Far fewer instructions to the server because, like you say, they are focusing down one person at a time.

edit: I watched again. I still don't see anywhere near 75 enemies. At all. 30 perhaps. 40 is exaggeration, 50 is ludicrous.

Rylana

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I have my doubts that it was "the anti-bot" code that changed anything.

It used to be "the lighting patch broke pvp" and now he's on the "the anti-bot code" broke pvp.

Ive been saying its the anti-bot since forever, I never once believed in the lighting patch being the cause (that would lower FPS potentially, sure, but not affect ping or server connection, thats all rendered client side from your own hard drive)

But the anti-bot affects client/server messaging.


Let me elaborate.

The lighting patch updated textures/graphics. All of these files are stored on your HDD on your computer in the various files in the ESO programfiles folder. When the game calls for things to be displayed (and this is brief, example only, and definitely not proper syntax), it looks something like this

Get packet from server (server tells client to display graphic1, graphic2, graphic3
Your client calls your HDD/CPU/Memory/Videocard to assemble those three graphics and display them on your screen. The better performing your machine, the less problems youd have. Your latency is completely irrelevant because the packet only tells your client WHAT to render, it doesnt contain the actual files. If you get behind the server in latency things just wouldnt display (like when you see black sillhouettes instead of people, or people just dont load, or siege sounds disappear)
Your computer sends back no packet to tell the server its displaying this information (omg the bottleneck that would cause if it did!, we would all have to wait for everyone slower than us to render before we got the next packet!!). It simply waits for the next one and updates accordingly. This of course all happens about 50-100 times a second, or slower, depending on how fast your machine can render (FPS)

The Anti-Bot patch is another animal. It detects multiple communications to the server (send/receive) that are repetitive or follow a known botting pattern. (x,y locations being identical, equally spaced action times, basically signs of automation, even the most accurate human will not replicate precision like a bot will)
This code effectively adds another check against every packet sent and recieved by the server, looking for such patterns. This consumes a LOT of cycle time, especially the higher the load becomes (large battles, lots of people on screen moving around in general, lots of chat traffic, lots of addon messaging traffic, etc)

Think of doing a series of simple math problems. 1+1, 2+1, 2+2 etc. You just go 2 3 4 right? now imagine you had to check each and every previous one before you completed the next. Now it would be 2. 2 3. 2 3 4, and so on. Instead of sending the answer once, you ended up sending it three times to make sure it was correct. This opens the door to massive bottlenecking of the netcode.

Its not the information contained in the packets that should concern you (telling me to display graphic 1 or 2), its the time it takes the server to process packets that should, and the anti-bot code clearly would go further into performance degradation than any lighting patch would. Hell on a high end machine you wouldnt even notice the lighting patch difference, performance wise. But even a monster rig will feel the difference of an extra check cycle done to every connection/send/receive done. (Ping and Latency)

Keep in mind, both features were released on the exact same patch (1.2.3), thus most people assumed it was the graphics updates that caused it

its always been the bot code. And I have always said so.

Myxril

Rylana wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I have my doubts that it was "the anti-bot" code that changed anything.

It used to be "the lighting patch broke pvp" and now he's on the "the anti-bot code" broke pvp.

Ive been saying its the anti-bot since forever, I never once believed in the lighting patch being the cause (that would lower FPS potentially, sure, but not affect ping or server connection, thats all rendered client side from your own hard drive)

But the anti-bot affects client/server messaging.


Let me elaborate.

The lighting patch updated textures/graphics. All of these files are stored on your HDD on your computer in the various files in the ESO programfiles folder. When the game calls for things to be displayed (and this is brief, example only, and definitely not proper syntax), it looks something like this

Get packet from server (server tells client to display graphic1, graphic2, graphic3
Your client calls your HDD/CPU/Memory/Videocard to assemble those three graphics and display them on your screen. The better performing your machine, the less problems youd have. Your latency is completely irrelevant because the packet only tells your client WHAT to render, it doesnt contain the actual files. If you get behind the server in latency things just wouldnt display (like when you see black sillhouettes instead of people, or people just dont load, or siege sounds disappear)

The Anti-Bot patch is another animal. It detects multiple communications to the server (send/receive) that are repetitive or follow a known botting pattern. (x,y locations being identical, equally spaced action times, basically signs of automation, even the most accurate human will not replicate precision like a bot will)
This code effectively adds another check against every packet sent and recieved by the server, looking for such patterns. This consumes a LOT of cycle time, especially the higher the load becomes (large battles, lots of people on screen moving around in general, lots of chat traffic, lots of addon messaging traffic, etc)

Its not the information contained in the packets that should concern you (telling me to display graphic 1 or 2), its the time it takes the server to process packets that should, and the anti-bot code clearly would go further into performance degradation than any lighting patch would. Hell on a high end machine you wouldnt even notice the lighting patch difference, performance wise. But even a monster rig will feel the difference of an extra check cycle done to every connection/send/receive done.

Keep in mind, both features were released on the exact same patch (1.2.3), thus most people assumed it was the graphics updates that caused it

its always been the bot code. And I have always said so.

I always assumed when people said the lighting patch wrecked Cyro, that they were referring to the quietly-added anti-bot stuff and not the actual lighting change.
Because blaming the latter would be silly, outside of complaints of fps/performance loss.

ItsGlaive

Waffennacht wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

LoL @ everyone complaining about a video of someones opinion (even if they are right). Do any of these anti PvPers realize there are FAR better PvE games...LOL. Oh wait...they're on these forums patrolling the waters of peoples opinions and must speak up to show they can kill tons of A.I. controlled monsters who give little to no challenge . Go play Dark souls or something and lmk how your "monster hunter" title fairs in there. The advertisement of PvP battles was a MAIN FEATURE when ESO was being released. It is very unique and offers one of the best (definitely the best on console) group PvP possible. If some of these people pulled their cheeto peppered, carpal tunneled, sun deprived fingers out of their opinionated booty holes, these discussions would move in a better direction. But nah, someone has to defend their Stormproof title or something and never watch the posted video and just complain about someone complaining .

All I remember is a cinematic short film for ESO advertising. Not once did I see anything that had, gameplay footage, or a description, or anything other than clearly an impossibly good looking film

Like all games, nothing looks like the advertising

There was advertising all over, outside of those cinematics. Interviews, previews, behind the scenes clips and of course Quakecon activity dating back to 2013 at least.

I'm predominantly a PVE player, but I did spend some time in Cyro at release and honestly it's the best PVP I've ever experienced. Today's it's a laggy, buggy and frankly pale version of its former self. I'm tired of seeing the PVP crowd get a community beating about this, because its fact, not up for debate. PVP was considered a main pillar of the game in the run up to release. Just a few random links:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/19/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-paul-sage/

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/03/30/new-details-on-the-elder-scrolls-online-bring-echoes-of-rvr/

http://elderscrollsonline.info/pvp

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/02/eso-daoc-legacy/

And here's an interesting excerpt from that Engadget article:

"Sage emphasized that ZeniMax built ESO with the goal to have 200 players on the screen at once without performance issues or culling. He told me that testing on minimum spec machines has proven that it can be done and that ZeniMax is extremely focused on metrics and getting this right. Given studio head Matt Firor's Dark Age of Camelot pedigree, it's easy to see the source of that confidence."

This stuff is all obviously 2 years old or more, but if you feel you really need further 'proof' for PVP players to feel (quite rightly) bent out of shape, then Google is your friend.

mb10

blabafat wrote: »

@mb10

PvPers just want some recognition and bug fixes.

We want a functioning PvP system. We want a balanced, lag free, and rewarding PvP system. We've been doing the same thing since launch (1 map with the same objectives) - IC was great for a month or two, and that's it (no PvP incentive).

Fair enough. The way you've put it is respectable and I can agree with that as I pvp myself.

Theres a difference between that and an hour long video bashing the game and saying how its dead and not coming back lol

Myxril

mb10 wrote: »

Theres a difference between that and an hour long video bashing the game and saying how its dead and not coming back lol

Yep. You definitely didn't watch the video.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I dont see in any of those posts where he claims this is a PVP game and the "main pillar" is cyrodill. If the main pillar was cyrodill I wouldnt have tought twice about buying the game. In fact a lot of people had begged there be no pvp at all. While yes they do talk about the pvp I think they overestimated their tech while being naive and letting the users pc do things normally done server side.

That being said a lot of people pvp in this game for it being so broken. Every night I cant get in trueflame because its pop locked on all three factions. The only place I really dont see anyone for the most part is IC.

rotaugen454

Myxril wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Theres a difference between that and an hour long video bashing the game and saying how its dead and not coming back lol

Yep. You definitely didn't watch the video.

My takeaway from the video was that PvP is unlikely to make a major comeback but PvE is doing ok. Unless they fix the lag in Cyrodiil, I think that is correct.Since I am mainly PvE, I am still happy with the game, but I can imagine the frustration of people who signed up because they liked the PvP portion.

Fuzzybrick

Ehh, I never liked PvP in ESO. NEVER. I played WOW since beta and PvPed non stop there between battle ground and open world. It didn't feel cheep in wow. I remember leveling a rogue I was level 30 and some level 60 paladin (max level at that time) was trying to gank me, I quickly equipped my gnomish mind control cap and ran the pally into the local city and let the guards take care of him. I felt accomplished. That feeling well never happen in ESO because of battle leveling and PvP buffs. In ESO you are a walking buff. To me that's crap. Not fun. I can't take it seriously when I can sh*t roll a vet 16 at level 10. That's just stupid. Played DCUO since beta too. PvP was great. ESO PvP to me has always been crap. So I can't agree with him based on the fact that the main reason I play this game is PVE. But I can understand where he is coming from.

Pendrillion

Rylana wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I have my doubts that it was "the anti-bot" code that changed anything.

It used to be "the lighting patch broke pvp" and now he's on the "the anti-bot code" broke pvp.

Ive been saying its the anti-bot since forever, I never once believed in the lighting patch being the cause (that would lower FPS potentially, sure, but not affect ping or server connection, thats all rendered client side from your own hard drive)

But the anti-bot affects client/server messaging.


Let me elaborate.

The lighting patch updated textures/graphics. All of these files are stored on your HDD on your computer in the various files in the ESO programfiles folder. When the game calls for things to be displayed (and this is brief, example only, and definitely not proper syntax), it looks something like this

Get packet from server (server tells client to display graphic1, graphic2, graphic3
Your client calls your HDD/CPU/Memory/Videocard to assemble those three graphics and display them on your screen. The better performing your machine, the less problems youd have. Your latency is completely irrelevant because the packet only tells your client WHAT to render, it doesnt contain the actual files. If you get behind the server in latency things just wouldnt display (like when you see black sillhouettes instead of people, or people just dont load, or siege sounds disappear)
Your computer sends back no packet to tell the server its displaying this information (omg the bottleneck that would cause if it did!, we would all have to wait for everyone slower than us to render before we got the next packet!!). It simply waits for the next one and updates accordingly. This of course all happens about 50-100 times a second, or slower, depending on how fast your machine can render (FPS)

The Anti-Bot patch is another animal. It detects multiple communications to the server (send/receive) that are repetitive or follow a known botting pattern. (x,y locations being identical, equally spaced action times, basically signs of automation, even the most accurate human will not replicate precision like a bot will)
This code effectively adds another check against every packet sent and recieved by the server, looking for such patterns. This consumes a LOT of cycle time, especially the higher the load becomes (large battles, lots of people on screen moving around in general, lots of chat traffic, lots of addon messaging traffic, etc)

Think of doing a series of simple math problems. 1+1, 2+1, 2+2 etc. You just go 2 3 4 right? now imagine you had to check each and every previous one before you completed the next. Now it would be 2. 2 3. 2 3 4, and so on. Instead of sending the answer once, you ended up sending it three times to make sure it was correct. This opens the door to massive bottlenecking of the netcode.

Its not the information contained in the packets that should concern you (telling me to display graphic 1 or 2), its the time it takes the server to process packets that should, and the anti-bot code clearly would go further into performance degradation than any lighting patch would. Hell on a high end machine you wouldnt even notice the lighting patch difference, performance wise. But even a monster rig will feel the difference of an extra check cycle done to every connection/send/receive done. (Ping and Latency)

Keep in mind, both features were released on the exact same patch (1.2.3), thus most people assumed it was the graphics updates that caused it

its always been the bot code. And I have always said so.

See thats how I thought it works... Thanks for your insights!

Asherons_Call

I watched about 40 minutes of it. To summarize and save your time:

ZOS likes PVE
ZOS hates PVP

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AOE caps is a PVP balance/combat thing - its just a bonus it would alleviate stress on the server.

@FENGRUSH Your explanations are speculative. Your explaining your OPINION which is fine, opinions are like *** everyone has one. However when you make a positive assertion, the burden of proof falls on you the provide real evidence for your claim. That means real empirical evidence, not your theory that you've drawn up in your head cause you made a connection everyone made almost 2 years ago. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, by asking if anyone could provide something authentic where it states what was changed from client to server side. Why? Not because I want to argue with you but that is how you make a case for empirical evidence. It's the best way to give constructive feedback to the developers. The type they will listen to as opposed to a random Joe who just happens to stream.

The whole rambling about how they can't fix it, or they don't have the resources. They have an entire department dedicated to server performance, it's their network team and it is all they do. Your conclusion is they don't exist and if they did exist and found a way to improve performance. Matt is going to tell them drop it, it is more important to *** on those PvP players instead of the huge PR boost they could have if they were able to advertise a drastic improvement in performance.

The bot issue was fixed because Zenimax banned thousands of IPAddress's that were linked to accounts using bot programs. However, bot programs still exist. Check out Viper, they claim to have one still working. Your answer to fixing bots is EXACTLY what is done to combat bots. In that regard ESO was hugely successful at getting rid of bots. You can go to any gold selling website and see how many games are still plagued with bots.

This "anti-bot" code sounds like a rumor to me. The video you showed of the teleporting bot is another example of you connecting an observation to what so far has been shown to be unrelated to your argument. There is no teleporting, it's a SpeedHack. It appears to be teleporting because the character is moving faster than the frame rate of the people watching. If you pay attention in your video at around 14:15, you can actually see the blur of the bot moving between the nodes. This is done by hacking values in the Memorybank which likely stored the characters movement speed. Yes, certain things are handled by the client. In this case, Character Movement but if this was moved to server-side. You would encounter a small delay in the response EVERYTIME (not just Cyrodiil) from pushing WASD and your character responding in game. Nobody has this issue so this is at least one example of what wasn't moved from client side to server side.

WalkingLegacy

mb10 wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

@mb10

PvPers just want some recognition and bug fixes.

We want a functioning PvP system. We want a balanced, lag free, and rewarding PvP system. We've been doing the same thing since launch (1 map with the same objectives) - IC was great for a month or two, and that's it (no PvP incentive).

Fair enough. The way you've put it is respectable and I can agree with that as I pvp myself.

Theres a difference between that and an hour long video bashing the game and saying how its dead and not coming back lol

What you're not understanding is that people that have been around since beta, have been around 2 years, have seen and heard some much fluff about this and that and they're getting tired of it.

You can only stay cheery and happy and patient for so long while over a year later nothing in Cyrodiil is better. How much longer does it take?

Should they just do what SWTOR had to do and get rid of the PvP battle map because the engine and network just can't handle it? But it did work before - so there is a happy medium somewhere but nothing is being done.

We can say nothing because it's been over a year and nothing is fixed.

Maybe you can put yourself in those shoes and understand where the frustration of these people is coming from.

danno8

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AOE caps is a PVP balance/combat thing - its just a bonus it would alleviate stress on the server.

@FENGRUSH Your explanations are speculative. Your explaining your OPINION which is fine, opinions are like *** everyone has one. However when you make a positive assertion, the burden of proof falls on you the provide real evidence for your claim. That means real empirical evidence, not your theory that you've drawn up in your head cause you made a connection everyone made almost 2 years ago. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, by asking if anyone could provide something authentic where it states what was changed from client to server side. Why? Not because I want to argue with you but that is how you make a case for empirical evidence. It's the best way to give constructive feedback to the developers. The type they will listen to as opposed to a random Joe who just happens to stream.

The whole rambling about how they can't fix it, or they don't have the resources. They have an entire department dedicated to server performance, it's their network team and it is all they do. Your conclusion is they don't exist and if they did exist and found a way to improve performance. Matt is going to tell them drop it, it is more important to *** on those PvP players instead of the huge PR boost they could have if they were able to advertise a drastic improvement in performance.

The bot issue was fixed because Zenimax banned thousands of IPAddress's that were linked to accounts using bot programs. However, bot programs still exist. Check out Viper, they claim to have one still working. Your answer to fixing bots is EXACTLY what is done to combat bots. In that regard ESO was hugely successful at getting rid of bots. You can go to any gold selling website and see how many games are still plagued with bots.

This "anti-bot" code sounds like a rumor to me. The video you showed of the teleporting bot is another example of you connecting an observation to what so far has been shown to be unrelated to your argument. There is no teleporting, it's a SpeedHack. It appears to be teleporting because the character is moving faster than the frame rate of the people watching. If you pay attention in your video at around 14:15, you can actually see the blur of the bot moving between the nodes. This is done by hacking values in the Memorybank which likely stored the characters movement speed. Yes, certain things are handled by the client. In this case, Character Movement but if this was moved to server-side. You would encounter a small delay in the response EVERYTIME (not just Cyrodiil) from pushing WASD and your character responding in game. Nobody has this issue so this is at least one example of what wasn't moved from client side to server side.

There was a post after 1.2.3 where a green name explained that the reason people were getting 2-5 fps for a few weeks before patch 1.2.5(6?) fixed most of it, was because of anti-cheat code.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/118351/new-performance-fps-issues-hotfix/p5

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We at ZOS are constantly looking at ways to enhance security for The Elder Scrolls Online, especially when it comes to combating bots, cheaters, and spammers. We do so in an effort to maintain as fair and high quality a gameplay experience as possible for our players. In a recent round of client security enhancements, we made a change that interacted with some of the client’s gameplay systems in a way we didn’t anticipate. Specifically, this had to do with resource contention (when two or more threads of execution are trying to simultaneously access the same data) that could occur when performing certain security checks from multiple threads at the same time. Certain high-load combat scenarios are where you were most likely to encounter the issue.

Today’s hotfix included performance enhancements to these security measures that made improvements in average frames-per-second as well as frame-time stability. We will continue to monitor how these and other security enhancements effect performance, and will continue to make improvements.

Thanks for your patience and support as we work toward making The Elder Scroll Online the best game it can be!

mb10

@WalkingLegacy

What you're not understanding is that people that have been around since beta, have been around 2 years, have seen and heard some much fluff about this and that and they're getting tired of it.

You can only stay cheery and happy and patient for so long while over a year later nothing in Cyrodiil is better. How much longer does it take?

Should they just do what SWTOR had to do and get rid of the PvP battle map because the engine and network just can't handle it? But it did work before - so there is a happy medium somewhere but nothing is being done.

We can say nothing because it's been over a year and nothing is fixed.

Maybe you can put yourself in those shoes and understand where the frustration of these people is coming from.
[/quote]

What you're not understanding the BETA is the BETA its not the actual game. Its testing the game so it doesnt count at all.
What you're not understanding is I was playing the beta too Its not an inclusive members club that grants you a more valid opinion than those who didnt play it too btw.
What you're not understanding is ZOS said theyre working on the problem.

Alcast

He got it pretty right.

PvP got abandoned. (1% of playerbase)
Focus is on casual PvE Skyrim players. (99% of Playerbase)

waiting for good balance or better performance is like waiting for HL3, obviously

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Rylana wrote: »

The Anti-Bot patch is another animal. It detects multiple communications to the server (send/receive) that are repetitive or follow a known botting pattern. (x,y locations being identical, equally spaced action times, basically signs of automation, even the most accurate human will not replicate precision like a bot will)
This code effectively adds another check against every packet sent and recieved by the server, looking for such patterns. This consumes a LOT of cycle time, especially the higher the load becomes (large battles, lots of people on screen moving around in general, lots of chat traffic, lots of addon messaging traffic, etc)

Think of doing a series of simple math problems. 1+1, 2+1, 2+2 etc. You just go 2 3 4 right? now imagine you had to check each and every previous one before you completed the next. Now it would be 2. 2 3. 2 3 4, and so on. Instead of sending the answer once, you ended up sending it three times to make sure it was correct. This opens the door to massive bottlenecking of the netcode.

Its not the information contained in the packets that should concern you (telling me to display graphic 1 or 2), its the time it takes the server to process packets that should, and the anti-bot code clearly would go further into performance degradation than any lighting patch would. Hell on a high end machine you wouldnt even notice the lighting patch difference, performance wise. But even a monster rig will feel the difference of an extra check cycle done to every connection/send/receive done. (Ping and Latency)

That would make sense but there is no reason to send the information collected from an Anti-bot program back and forth between server and client.

Think of this game as any single player game that just happens to sync up with a server. For example, go to your favorite stealing spot in the game. Steal all the lootables, log out and log back in. All the items reset. If the server was storing this information and then sending it's own status to your client. Then reclogging would not reset intractable objects cause according to the server those items have been looted. Different is NPC's, reclogging doesn't reset mudcrabs after you just killed them. So the server handles NPC data.

My point, the server can discriminate what it sends/receives to the client. So even with an anti-bot program, you don't have that data being sent to you in packets.

They likely have something like this, obviously a way to analyze data but it should be extension from the main server. Kinda like a printer on home-computer.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I hate to have to do this but ferngrush is right. The movement calculations for players were moved from client side to server side to stop speed hacking and teleporting. Which caused problems with lag in situations like cyrodill where you have mass amounts of people in one area.

Malmai

FENGRUSH is right again here we are waiting for Lag & Bug & Other performance updates but i just don't see it coming. 2 years have passed and we are still playing in all this Lag and Bugs... Meh...

Myxril

mb10 wrote: »

Ooooo a snitch I'm so so scared I might get banned! Ill just come back better and harsher than ever. Loser haha you should go out and socialise more. Can tell exactly what type of person you are from that. You're much lower down in the food chain tbh

So, that's all you've got? More toxic nonsense in the form of personal insult? Are you not even going to discuss the thread? Are you just here to pad your comment count?

On a side note, I hope you do get banned. You've contributed nothing at all to this entire thread and have done nothing but whinge like a child at and about people. The community would be better off without you.



I mean seriously, you proudly boasted about how you would intentionally abuse a position of power within ZOS to do nothing more than harass Fengrush by banning/deleting his account, or changing his damage just to stress him out. That speaks volumes of exactly what type of person you are.
Your arrogance has been immortalized in my signature. Congratulations on being petty.

FENGRUSH

mb10 wrote: »

What you're not understanding the BETA is the BETA its not the actual game. Its testing the game so it doesnt count at all.
What you're not understanding is I was playing the beta too Its not an inclusive members club that grants you a more valid opinion than those who didnt play it too btw.
What you're not understanding is ZOS said theyre working on the problem.

This doesnt even make sense. Youre saying nothing mattered in beta - whys that? If the client performed better in beta its... somehow irrelevant?

Despite that part of it being irrelevant, the game was actually released with a client similar to what was in beta, and functioned at a much higher level than this now. That lighting patch didnt come in beta - it came during release, months after. So again, this kind of nullifies anything about the beta (which you probably werent a part of).

And saying "you dont understand, ZOS said theyre working on the problem"... yea, pretty much covered that one in the video. They can say that for a year or 3 years.. saying its 'being worked on' doesnt really mean anything, especially when you dont see significant change.

If there was some sweeping change that would come through for optimization it would have happened at this point, or we would hear a lot more about it coming. Its not like they dont want Cyro to be functional, its just not something feasible without serious change. If that serious change isnt happening/being talked about, then its not coming.

ZOS_CoriJ

This thread contains a lot of good back and forth discussion and constructive conversation that we would like to preserve. We have had to remove a lot of commentary from this thread for bashing, slander, and flaming. Disagreements are expected of a very heated discussion and debate, however we ask that it is done in a civil manner.

Continuing disruptive conversation will get this discussion locked, which we would like to avoid. We feel it is important for you to have the ability to voice your concerns and opinions.

Thank you for your understanding.

WalkingLegacy

mb10 wrote: »

@WalkingLegacy

What you're not understanding is that people that have been around since beta, have been around 2 years, have seen and heard some much fluff about this and that and they're getting tired of it.

You can only stay cheery and happy and patient for so long while over a year later nothing in Cyrodiil is better. How much longer does it take?

Should they just do what SWTOR had to do and get rid of the PvP battle map because the engine and network just can't handle it? But it did work before - so there is a happy medium somewhere but nothing is being done.

We can say nothing because it's been over a year and nothing is fixed.

Maybe you can put yourself in those shoes and understand where the frustration of these people is coming from.

What you're not understanding the BETA is the BETA its not the actual game. Its testing the game so it doesnt count at all.
What you're not understanding is I was playing the beta too Its not an inclusive members club that grants you a more valid opinion than those who didnt play it too btw.
What you're not understanding is ZOS said theyre working on the problem.

[/quote]

Here is my point. Your ignorance and lack of understanding.

Yes, they have said they're working on it. For over a year.

Beta has nothing to do with it - besides this game still feels like a game in late beta and some features still in Alpha. You think because people are frustrated and they point out they have been around since beta that they think they're in some special club. No, they're pointing out that they're here supporting the game for a long time and hearing the same thing over and over. "We're working on it" . "No ETA". Some people are just tired of it.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

@danno8 thanx man.

Faulgor

It wasn't just bots that were tackled in that ominous patch. Don't you guys remember the item dupes and stuff? The client was basically a free-for-all hacker buffet because a ton of calculations were done client- and not server-side. When that was changed (relatively quickly I must say, so it can't be a ton of work to change back either), the game was 100% more secure, but performance went into the toilet.

FENGRUSH

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AOE caps is a PVP balance/combat thing - its just a bonus it would alleviate stress on the server.

@FENGRUSH Your explanations are speculative. Your explaining your OPINION which is fine, opinions are like *** everyone has one. However when you make a positive assertion, the burden of proof falls on you the provide real evidence for your claim. That means real empirical evidence, not your theory that you've drawn up in your head cause you made a connection everyone made almost 2 years ago. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, by asking if anyone could provide something authentic where it states what was changed from client to server side. Why? Not because I want to argue with you but that is how you make a case for empirical evidence. It's the best way to give constructive feedback to the developers. The type they will listen to as opposed to a random Joe who just happens to stream.

The whole rambling about how they can't fix it, or they don't have the resources. They have an entire department dedicated to server performance, it's their network team and it is all they do. Your conclusion is they don't exist and if they did exist and found a way to improve performance. Matt is going to tell them drop it, it is more important to *** on those PvP players instead of the huge PR boost they could have if they were able to advertise a drastic improvement in performance.

The bot issue was fixed because Zenimax banned thousands of IPAddress's that were linked to accounts using bot programs. However, bot programs still exist. Check out Viper, they claim to have one still working. Your answer to fixing bots is EXACTLY what is done to combat bots. In that regard ESO was hugely successful at getting rid of bots. You can go to any gold selling website and see how many games are still plagued with bots.

This "anti-bot" code sounds like a rumor to me. The video you showed of the teleporting bot is another example of you connecting an observation to what so far has been shown to be unrelated to your argument. There is no teleporting, it's a SpeedHack. It appears to be teleporting because the character is moving faster than the frame rate of the people watching. If you pay attention in your video at around 14:15, you can actually see the blur of the bot moving between the nodes. This is done by hacking values in the Memorybank which likely stored the characters movement speed. Yes, certain things are handled by the client. In this case, Character Movement but if this was moved to server-side. You would encounter a small delay in the response EVERYTIME (not just Cyrodiil) from pushing WASD and your character responding in game. Nobody has this issue so this is at least one example of what wasn't moved from client side to server side.

You are right about it being a speedhack. This is what the shift did - it was terrible looking because youd see it everywhere in town. There were TONS of articles about ESO being infested with bots, so they took radical action, and they did it very quickly. I remember the articles linking countless youtube videos of bots pouring into town teleport points and flying across their screen in midair and through terrain everywhere. It DID look bad.

This type of press is something that higher level individuals will read and ask questions. These are the type of things leadership has to address because it ties directly to the investors of the product questioning what is going on with their product. Radical action happened, and the price was paid in Cyro. Its why its something that wont be 'undone'. Its why they are limited on fixing the issue. Its why I begged for changes in places like IC and solutions that are (literally) outside the box [of Cyro]. There is only so much development that can be expended when pushing DLC content on tight deadlines with limited staff. That is why I dont see the solution coming anytime soon. Im not preaching doomsday, I made videos laying out my point of view on this as someone whos been here through it all and followed things pretty closely.

Solutions wont happen overnight, but the solution to Cyro is something I dont forsee anytime soon. ZOS wont take action on my videos, nor am I asking any of them to watch my videos and do just that. But if the community feels the same way as I do, they can attempt to mobilize on a single front to get changes in IC. I think its the best course of action and the most realistic one. It could give something to look forward to in 3-6months, rather than a year for arena/BGs (which arent even really my cup of tea honestly). And if nothing comes of it, that is OK too. I made the video as its simply part of my streaming content.

Arenas/BGs did in fact get passed into development this year based on community involvement - not because a couple streamers yelled about it. The streamers brought the issue to light, the community got behind it, and that invoked change. Some things can be changed, some cannot. The developers are limited on what they can and cant do for reasons outside of purely technical limitations. Such is the red tape of the professional world any adult can relate to if theyve lived through attempts of bringing sensible and sometimes simple solutions to fruition.

If you think Im under the impression ZOS devs simply do not care at all about players, including PVPers, youd be incorrect. I think Brian Wheeler is a good dev who does care, but he is limited on what he can do. When the community makes an uproar, he is empowered to create content that otherwise would have no real demand. It is in the same fashion that player housing is brought in for those players that want it as well. I encourage people not to attack each other over these issues like I asked in the video though. It doesnt actually help at all, and infighting only derails that sort of thing. So the commenters that are purely attacking one side or another add no value in making the game better. Discussing issues iwith those ideas is helpful though.

I dont think these IC changes will happen in 3-6 months as I believe they may be able to. Not only do the PVE DLCs incoming take precedence - but now PVP lead dev team has been tasked with arena/BG as their full time project. Id rather see IC touched up and improved with arena/BG coming after it, but I dont think that will happen now.

FENGRUSH

Faulgor wrote: »

It wasn't just bots that were tackled in that ominous patch. Don't you guys remember the item dupes and stuff? The client was basically a free-for-all hacker buffet because a ton of calculations were done client- and not server-side. When that was changed (relatively quickly I must say, so it can't be a ton of work to change back either), the game was 100% more secure, but performance went into the toilet.

Yea - that is true. I remember that as well. The dupes through bank has left us with the current bank UI that everyone is used to. You used to be able to maneuver the bank menu much more easily.

The economy took a punch from some duping that was likely never captured, but Im sure a lot of the incredibly extreme examples were taken care of.

MaxwellC

@ZOS_CoriJ

Please do not lock this thread just get rid of the trolls who are trying to get it locked. @FENGRUSH has a lot of good points actually as a player who's seen the start of this game to it's current state I agree with him 100%.

Let me ask you CoriJ which player do you know could generate this much constructive feedback based on video with shows the passion he has for this game? I can only think of one and that's fengrush; not trying to sound like I'm a fan boy but when someone has intelligence and makes constructive feedback even if they use some vulgar words they definitely get my support.

Vaoh

vamp_emily wrote: »

Maybe they should just do away with PvP and make ESO a PvE only game.

CU beta is coming out really really soon ( not confirmed date: 4/8 ). I guess in a year from now I can go over to their forurms and say:

Listen to me fix your bugs! I have been a backer since Alpha!

But really, I don't think I need to watch Fengrush's video. I think I already know what he said:

F this, F that, remove AOE caps. I have been playing since Beta and you should listen to me .

Am I right?

Oh look, a discussion about a video! Probably don't need to watch it or anything. Why pass up the opportunity to make an uninformed post? -vamp_emily

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO Please stop acting like a child.

Having an opinion is fine, but telling everyone what your opinion is ( especially if you did not "watch the video" ) so that means you have NO idea what was said and everything you have said in this discussion has been speculation of what was said really dilutes anything you say to the point of no one will even read what you post.

Since you have no substance, there is nothing you can say that is relevant if you speculate on a discussion. Your argument is like this:

I dont have to watch his videos to get the idea. Its called euphoric recall. only remember good things while forgetting the bad things. My opinion as far as what I have posted here has been in response to people like the guy in the video talking to me and asking me things. I also never said anything about right and wrong. So you saying I say I am right is ludicrous since its just opinion and not right or wrong.

If a discussion revolves around a specific video, common sense tells us you need to watch that video (or at least most parts of it) to know what is really discussed. This is called being "informed", so you can write legitimate posts others will take seriously.

You cannot join the discussion for the sole purpose of saying you know you're ignorant, but since it's your opinion too bad. Only mindless haters will even read your whole posts. Watch the video and respond with knowledge or don't aimlessly hate the streamer because he's a streamer.