Shortage of tanks in Tamriel

Mirelurk

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

When the devs steer the game towards DPS > everything else, dont be surprised when everyone is DPS.

Yup. Got a tank toon just gathering dust atm ... no real need, no rewards, not much fun ... much easier just to blast stuff with my sorc.

elantaura

I have a low level tank takes forever to level. I keep her for ledges with my friend because you are at the mercy of the dps and healer in gf. I hard a fair few bad runs trying to do the right thing for fun and expierience but it's awful. Had worse runs with her than my other two dos with no damage, healers who don't heal, and dps with no aoe... I do go into gf often to get silver out of the way with my healer, and dps - just not with my tank.my dos doesn't have issues as I Mara-ed a healer i am yet to have a good expierience on my tank though.
So why did I roll one? for my friends because we needed one as we have a tank and he early gets to use his dps. So the only insentive is friendship. And it's fun with them but usually horrible without them.

Jade1986

Katahdin wrote: »

Tanks became extinct with the changes to stamina (I forget which update).

It was the nerf creep to blocking that caused it. First there was no more regen while blocking, then they stealth nerfed blocking without saying anything and made it far more expensive to block. Then there was the over nerf of almost all DK abilities. So it is ZoS own fault that tanks are close to non existant.

WolfingHour

zmobie_dementor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Hey! @zmobie_dementor! I see you there! What does your Nightblade tank setup look like?

I've tried a number of set-ups with various degrees of success; right now I'm trying 5x Armour Master, 2x Bloodspawn, 2x Footman's, 3x Healthy Willpower - I don't hate it but I think I'm gonna swap out the 2x Footman's with something that gives me some extra resist or even stamina rather than health because I don't think this will work in vICP (haven't tried yet, since the patch -- I was fine in vWGT, but that dungeon doesn't have the Overfiend or Ibomez's flesh atronachs). I use Harness Magicka to proc Armour Master. Enchants are all health on armour, jewelry is one shield-play, two spell power. I also want to try swapping Armour Master for heavy reinforced Kagrenac's Hope.

My trials setup is 5x Armour Master, 5x Footman's, 2x Bloodspawn or Engine Guardian. I really want to try Lord Warden but he just refuses to give me his hat. In veteran Maw of Lorkhaj I think I want to run reinforced Hist Bark over Armour Master just so I don't have to keep casting Double Take in trash pulls as they get pretty hectic. (I could run all the normal content in Trials mode of course but I like being able to have reliable self-healing + a bit of damage in case I'm in a PUG.) Enchants are all health and shield-play for jewelry.

Attributes-wise, I stack everything in Magicka for regular vet content (including ICP/WGT/DSA) but for trials I distribute it so I have 30K health, 20K Stam, and 20K magicka. Mundus stone is Atronach for regular vet dungeons, Lover or Lady for trials, depending on which of my resistances is not quite past cap when fully buffed.

My bars are brand-new right now due to the SA+Caltrops nerf, I'm not 100% sure about them yet:
[1] Pierce Armour | Funnel Health | Harness Magicka | Sap Essence | Dark Shades | Aggressive Horn
[2] Inner Fire | flex | Harness Magicka | Refreshing Path | Siphoning Attacks | Bolstering Darkness

The flex slot has either Impale (for bosses) or Double Take (for trash pulls). In Trials, I have Defensive Stance on the front bar in place of Sap Essence and Double Take on the back.

I think that about covers it, let me know if you need to know anything else.

Have you tried nerieneth + proxy Det + SA + sap spam for trash? Crystals just start popping like popcorn

The odd thing there is that proxy procs nerieneth , which means it's not a DOT, but doesn't proc SA. Sap on the other hand procs both.

I was rather lost for words when I first tested this.

Artis

Flak wrote: »

Tanking is probably the easiest role in PvE once you got the hang of it, I'm also playing and liking all roles, however if you have a (good) tankchar you always have to tank since no-one else wants to.

Nah, it's DPS. You just run around and do your rotation and don't worry about anything else. Had to respec once all group content became out of date except for 2 dungeons. Playing DPS now. Another reason was that it was hard to get into trials as a tank, unless you know people. Same was with weekly vDSA - you couldn't find a good group if you aren't DK or temp. The last one was surprising to be honest. I remember how I didn't make it to leaderboards for the first time, because I simply never found a group to run with.

Tanking is fun. But there's simply nothing to tank in this game and not everyone plays in groups in PvP to run a tank when meta is high burst damage. Demand creates supply. There was no demand for tanks so people quit tanking.

TotterTates

Just say NO to AoE taunts!

Shunravi

TotterTates wrote: »

Just say NO to AoE taunts!

Agreed. If people are having that much trouble with trash and adds, they must be doing something wrong.

Zeg0ta

Unfortunately tanking has always been a thankless job. But we do it cuz we love it.

kojou

Artemis wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

Tanking is probably the easiest role in PvE once you got the hang of it, I'm also playing and liking all roles, however if you have a (good) tankchar you always have to tank since no-one else wants to.

Nah, it's DPS. You just run around and do your rotation and don't worry about anything else. Had to respec once all group content became out of date except for 2 dungeons. Playing DPS now. Another reason was that it was hard to get into trials as a tank, unless you know people. Same was with weekly vDSA - you couldn't find a good group if you aren't DK or temp. The last one was surprising to be honest. I remember how I didn't make it to leaderboards for the first time, because I simply never found a group to run with.

Tanking is fun. But there's simply nothing to tank in this game and not everyone plays in groups in PvP to run a tank when meta is high burst damage. Demand creates supply. There was no demand for tanks so people quit tanking.

I am with you 100% here. Part of the problem is that some fights have no role for a tank. For example I ran my DK in Darkshade Caverns one time to get completion and undaunted points, but then after there was no point to ever bring him back because there is nothing for a tank to do in that dungeon. If every major fight had a role for a tanky character to do or the mechanic would wipe the group then it would go a long way to make being a tank more fun.

PvP is a whole other story... I got my DK to max level just before Dragon Knights took one of their largest hits with the nerf hammer so I was never able to experience the glory days. I really want to try more PvP tanking, and I have seen some players do very well with it, so with the recent buffs to DKs I will probably give it a shot now, but I will have to buy new expensive gear...

xellink

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

xellink wrote: »

the state of DPS vs Tanks is well demonstrated in this video.

You can watch the whole thing or skip to 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqb0EdLP9Uc

Hmm that was extremely one sided and what the hell is the name of it so i can binge it..... WAIT !!!!!...... need to order pizza first.

Its called "Gate: Thus the JSDF fought". You can find it on horrible subs under current season.
In short: Basically a gate into a fantasy world appears in Japan. Japan sends soldiers, tanks and planes in and machine guns all their enemies, then offers peace treaties.

paulsimonps

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it. A lot of people have been QQ'ing their eyes out ever since the stam regen got removed but I even find it more fun to play a tank after it. I could perma block but I don't. I hold block a lot but not permanently. CC'ing and applying buffs and debuffs is in my eye one of the top priorities as a tank. Just taunting is not enough.

Many have said it before that Controlling the battlefield is one of the most important part of the role as tank. Sadly that is a lot easier for some classes. When and where to do stuff is key and I wish that blocking was just as reactionary as when to chain, when to retaunt, when to do a talon, but its not and it won't be in this type of game. Why? Cause damage is calculated before the animation has hit! With the exception of the obvious telegraphs that some enemies do, the normal everyday attacks cannot be blocked with reaction alone. This is not an action combat system, its a tab target system with a few action elements.

If you guys want a 15min crash course on the big differences of action combat and tab target watch this(ESO works just like WoW in his examples):
https://youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

So why do I keep block up so often? Cause taking the Manitkoras "light attacks" to the face is not something I would recommend. Yes on most dungeons the bosses are so weak you don't have too, and I don't there either. But during large pulls of trash where I taunt all of them then the small hits adds up, or when doing vICP or vWGT and Trial bosses then you kinda need to block almost always. I wish I wouldn't have too and that it was action combat but it isn't, learn to live with it.

Now one thing I do wish for is like many that Tanks could do a bit of damage as well. Now I don't want my tanks to be able to do as much dps as a proper dps cause if I could then why be anything other than a tank. This is what the PvP'ers have QQ'ed their eyes about previously. When people could permablock or shield stack and be really super tanky and still do a lot of damage, and some still can. Looking at you shields stackers. But anyway, lets look at some numbers, on most bosses I can get like 5-6k dps without just doing like pierce armor, deep slash and bashing a ton, but the dps's I run with usually single target up to around 20-30k dps depending on the boss. Seen some do 52k dps on a Crematorial guardian in vWGT, so how much higher would be nice for a tank to be at? I know many tanks probably do a lot more dps than I do, being like magicka tanks or medium or light armor tanks. But what do you guys think would be a good average number that a tank should be able to do?

Another thing though is Heavy armor, I would love to be able to use Heavy armor and say 2 handed or sword and board and be more effective in PvP. How do you make dealing damage with heavy armor and tanky stuff viable without making them unkillable killing machines? I'm not sure to be honest, but one thing that someone on the official tank feedback thread said was really good. He made a comparison to Skyrim, where seeing someone in Heavy Armor and like a greatsword was cause for concern, of course you could always just keep backpeddling... But the fact that you did that meant that if they actually hit you it would hurt a lot, and same could be said for the half naked dudes speeding towards you with dual axes. Two ways of achieving the same goal. Hard and slow or weak and fast, both in the end should deal around the same about of total damage. But balancing that in a way where you make the tanks not too powerful in survivability and damage is hard. And right now there are to many ways for dps's to have great survivability, they are sustaining so hard that nothing can compare, its go dps or go home. So if you guys have actual good ideas about how to do that then please share it with the rest so the devs can potentially see it.

Also people stop talking about AoE taunts. Really? Just use the tools given to you. Tanking is easy enough without adding more ways to make it easy.

Oh and to OP, Footman ain't as useful as you think. That diminishing return bruh.

xellink

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it.

All I see are people saying: Sorry you are not a templar healer. We need shards because I can't perma block after the new patch.

hrothbern

xellink wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it.

All I see are people saying: Sorry you are not a templar healer. We need shards because I can't perma block after the new patch.

Do you mean that you have all 3 Jewelry enchanted with block cost reduction, Defensive stance slotted and put 75-100 in Block expertise...
and you cannot "perma block" ?

xellink

hrothbern wrote: »

xellink wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it.

All I see are people saying: Sorry you are not a templar healer. We need shards because I can't perma block after the new patch.

Do you mean that you have all 3 Jewelry enchanted with block cost reduction, Defensive stance slotted and put 75-100 in Block expertise...
and you cannot "perma block" ?

Don't ask me, ask the pugs. Personally i don't permablock because its better to be doing something useful than holding block.

hrothbern

xellink wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

xellink wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it.

All I see are people saying: Sorry you are not a templar healer. We need shards because I can't perma block after the new patch.

Do you mean that you have all 3 Jewelry enchanted with block cost reduction, Defensive stance slotted and put 75-100 in Block expertise...
and you cannot "perma block" ?

Don't ask me, ask the pugs. Personally i don't permablock because its better to be doing something useful than holding block.

you say: "Personally i don't permablock because its better to be doing something useful than holding block"

I agree with you !

hrothbern

.

skavenapsb16_ESO

permablock is boring... uber boring.

Problem with tank role is that is very ungrateful outside of (hard) dungeons.

Wanna do some quest fast? or farm XP? Oooh your dps sucks, sorry for you. Take doble time killing anything (or pay a respect).
Wanna do some PvP? Oooh sorry you don't do enuff dmg to kill anyone decent (or pay a respect).
What, you wanna VMA? Ooh sorry, you need dps there or you hit the enrage timers (or pay a respect).

Also, some dungeons don't need a tank and peeps just look for 3DD+1H, and on vWGT where you need a tank, you need dps for the portal boss...

Saint314Louis1985

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

Tanking is probably the easiest role in PvE once you got the hang of it, I'm also playing and liking all roles, however if you have a (good) tankchar you always have to tank since no-one else wants to.

Nah, it's DPS. You just run around and do your rotation and don't worry about anything else. Had to respec once all group content became out of date except for 2 dungeons. Playing DPS now. Another reason was that it was hard to get into trials as a tank, unless you know people. Same was with weekly vDSA - you couldn't find a good group if you aren't DK or temp. The last one was surprising to be honest. I remember how I didn't make it to leaderboards for the first time, because I simply never found a group to run with.

Tanking is fun. But there's simply nothing to tank in this game and not everyone plays in groups in PvP to run a tank when meta is high burst damage. Demand creates supply. There was no demand for tanks so people quit tanking.

I am with you 100% here. Part of the problem is that some fights have no role for a tank. For example I ran my DK in Darkshade Caverns one time to get completion and undaunted points, but then after there was no point to ever bring him back because there is nothing for a tank to do in that dungeon. If every major fight had a role for a tanky character to do or the mechanic would wipe the group then it would go a long way to make being a tank more fun.

PvP is a whole other story... I got my DK to max level just before Dragon Knights took one of their largest hits with the nerf hammer so I was never able to experience the glory days. I really want to try more PvP tanking, and I have seen some players do very well with it, so with the recent buffs to DKs I will probably give it a shot now, but I will have to buy new expensive gear...

actually in darkshade you can help out quite a bit. although i know its sometimes a quicker run with 3 dps, tanks can help alot. generally groups from group finder benefit more from having a tank than experienced groups.

bug boss - keep all 3 aggrod on you so the dps doesnt have to worry about the annoying sidekicks. also supply buffs/debuffs and heals

grobull - caltrops on all the adds and aggro all them as much as possible. talons in big group of adds helps group aoes and dot's help kill the adds as well.

dwemer swarm - caltrops and talons along with group buffs and heals.also taunting the big guys to keep your dps from getting one shot.

engine guardian - yeah, this one the tank dont do much. i usually try to group the adds and then talon so they all in one spot. supply group heals and do what little dps i can supply. the only time tank really shines is when the rest of the group wipes and the tank is left standing to res them all lol

all dungeons can use a tank, but most dungeons dont require one.

NBrookus

Huggalump wrote: »

Hi, noober tank here. I tank as an offspec. I had a bunch of extra skill points, so I threw them into heavy armor and sword/shield. I can do all the 4 man dungeons just fine even though my champion points are set up for pvp dps and I'm a stamina sorcerer.

But my tanking style is pretty basic. I taunt. I hold black. I keep my magic based buffs up.

If that's all you are doing, you are barely skimming the surface of the tank role. No wonder you find it boring.

Sad thing is, in most content now, that will suffice if you are running with a decent group. With a good group... well, if that's all a tank is doing they can just 3-man that dungeon in the first place and skip the tank altogether.

Taryf

Guys, there is official topic for Tanking problem -> Official Tanking Feedback Thread. Make all our suggestions in one place.

Stalwart385

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it. A lot of people have been QQ'ing their eyes out ever since the stam regen got removed but I even find it more fun to play a tank after it. I could perma block but I don't. I hold block a lot but not permanently. CC'ing and applying buffs and debuffs is in my eye one of the top priorities as a tank. Just taunting is not enough.

People who say they never perma block don't tank high level content. Try beating prison without perma blocking some fights. Atro's will eat you alive. Try to not perma block AA's last fight and see what happens. A good tank has the ability to perma block through fights when its needed. If not you will be dead in the water before your dps has a chance. ZoS made it harder and more annoying to perma block is all.

If you think you have tanking figured out by running the basic 4 man dungeons you don't. Those don't even require a tank.

kojou

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

Tanking is probably the easiest role in PvE once you got the hang of it, I'm also playing and liking all roles, however if you have a (good) tankchar you always have to tank since no-one else wants to.

Nah, it's DPS. You just run around and do your rotation and don't worry about anything else. Had to respec once all group content became out of date except for 2 dungeons. Playing DPS now. Another reason was that it was hard to get into trials as a tank, unless you know people. Same was with weekly vDSA - you couldn't find a good group if you aren't DK or temp. The last one was surprising to be honest. I remember how I didn't make it to leaderboards for the first time, because I simply never found a group to run with.

Tanking is fun. But there's simply nothing to tank in this game and not everyone plays in groups in PvP to run a tank when meta is high burst damage. Demand creates supply. There was no demand for tanks so people quit tanking.

I am with you 100% here. Part of the problem is that some fights have no role for a tank. For example I ran my DK in Darkshade Caverns one time to get completion and undaunted points, but then after there was no point to ever bring him back because there is nothing for a tank to do in that dungeon. If every major fight had a role for a tanky character to do or the mechanic would wipe the group then it would go a long way to make being a tank more fun.

PvP is a whole other story... I got my DK to max level just before Dragon Knights took one of their largest hits with the nerf hammer so I was never able to experience the glory days. I really want to try more PvP tanking, and I have seen some players do very well with it, so with the recent buffs to DKs I will probably give it a shot now, but I will have to buy new expensive gear...

actually in darkshade you can help out quite a bit. although i know its sometimes a quicker run with 3 dps, tanks can help alot. generally groups from group finder benefit more from having a tank than experienced groups.

bug boss - keep all 3 aggrod on you so the dps doesnt have to worry about the annoying sidekicks. also supply buffs/debuffs and heals

grobull - caltrops on all the adds and aggro all them as much as possible. talons in big group of adds helps group aoes and dot's help kill the adds as well.

dwemer swarm - caltrops and talons along with group buffs and heals.also taunting the big guys to keep your dps from getting one shot.

engine guardian - yeah, this one the tank dont do much. i usually try to group the adds and then talon so they all in one spot. supply group heals and do what little dps i can supply. the only time tank really shines is when the rest of the group wipes and the tank is left standing to res them all lol

all dungeons can use a tank, but most dungeons dont require one.

I agree there are things that a tank will help in DC (Darkshade Caverns), but the only boss that I would consider tankable is the "bug" boss. Other than throw caltrops there is nothing a tank really does with Grobel (the flying squid), and the 7 nation dwemer army boss just before the engine guardian can be handled with a couple well timed Veil of Blades or Solar Prisons. I would rather have 3 DPS an a healer for the Engine Guardian. If you can burn the boss quick enough you don't have to face that many cycles with spheres, but therein lies the problem...

The conclusion that I think I am coming to is that the issues are not as much with the tank tools, and such (although some of us have complaints about those as well), but rather the role itself is so diminished in dungeons. Taking our discussion about DC further as an example...

The bug boss could have a lot more health and spell resistance and needs a one shot attack that only a tank level of spell and physical resistance can survive.

Grobel's larger "adds" should be similarly buffed to be strong enough to have to be tanked.

The dwemer centurions should have to be tanked as well (like the deadroths in vWGT).

I think there should be a centurion that spawns during the add phase on the Engine Guardian as well.

Perhaps if there was a mode that was even harder than Veteran for dungeons where there were additional things to do that required tanks then we would have more players that would take on the role? Perhaps even have an additional reward like a guaranteed v16 (Hircine, Worm, or Ebon) set piece at the end? Or just make the Veteran mode scaled higher, but also double the chance of getting the monster head?

For those of you that quit tanking would that get you back into it?

UrQuan

Stalwart385 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't get it though. Why does everyone say that perma blocking isn't do able in PvE anymore? It totally is, just not in the way people used to do it. A lot of people have been QQ'ing their eyes out ever since the stam regen got removed but I even find it more fun to play a tank after it. I could perma block but I don't. I hold block a lot but not permanently. CC'ing and applying buffs and debuffs is in my eye one of the top priorities as a tank. Just taunting is not enough.

People who say they never perma block don't tank high level content. Try beating prison without perma blocking some fights. Atro's will eat you alive. Try to not perma block AA's last fight and see what happens. A good tank has the ability to perma block through fights when its needed. If not you will be dead in the water before your dps has a chance. ZoS made it harder and more annoying to perma block is all.

If you think you have tanking figured out by running the basic 4 man dungeons you don't. Those don't even require a tank.

You know that as long as you have a damage shield up the only reason to ever block is to prevent effects like knockback that you get from certain attacks, right? And you can see those attacks coming and block specifically for them... I haven't tried tanking AA, but I've done fine tanking all fights in ICP without perma-blocking any of them. Granted I've only done that dungeon on vet mode once, but I did it without feeling like I needed to perma-block. Between keeping damage mitigation effects up, keeping a 20% dodge chance up, frequently using damage shields (that get beaten down pretty damn fast lol), and holding block whenever it seemed like a good idea, it worked out fine.