Fasalla's Guile

DeanTheCat

Was looking though the Natch Potes just now, and the only change I saw to this set was a reduction in the duration on tooltip.

... Was it really only actually 2 seconds? Or was it actually 5 seconds but got reduced to 2?

Either way, the set as-is is too powerful, and is especially punishing to builds that rely on DoT damage. With the use of DoTs and a lack of a cooldown on this set, DoT users will be completely unable to heal, especially since the debuff is able to be stacked with Major Defile. In a twist of Irony, due to the set being able to be equipped on weapons and jewelry, the ones suffering the most from this set are tanks as they rely on sustained DoTs to actually do anything significant.

Suggested Changes to the set (With reasoning):

1) Change the set to inflict Major Defile instead of a static 50% healing cut. This allows users of the set to passively inflict a healing reduction on multiple targets simultaneously and prevent the stacking of the healing debuffs. This still maintains the original intent of the set as an AoE healing debuff while not making it over the top.

2) Exclude DoT based damage from triggering the 5pc bonus. The initial hit will still trigger the set. In the current iteration of the set, DoT users are unfairly punished for using their damage abilities as compared to someone using a "Burst" type ability like Crystal Fragments or Wrecking Blow. The burst user deals the full damage of their ability while only incurring a single proc of the set, whereas a DoT user has to incur multiple procs of the set over a long time due to each tick of the DoT reapplying the debuff.

What are your thoughts?

EDIT: Spelling

kkampaseb17_ESO

You are talking to deaf ears Dean. I already posted on the original patch notes thread but no response and I am not waiting for one either.

DeanTheCat

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

You are talking to deaf ears Dean. I already posted on the original patch notes thread but no response and I am not waiting for one either.

Still doesn't hurt to at least try. Better to post this now then in 4 weeks time when it actually hits live. (TG is slated for 19th March if I remember correctly).

Glory

I agree with the change to make it apply Major Defile to avoid stacking.

Sharee

To me it seems that with the duration being so short, the intent behind the set is "if you need to heal, stop hitting the guy for 2 seconds".

If they wanted this set to shut down healing for an extended period of time, they would make the proc last longer. In the light of that, DOT damage should be exempt from triggering the proc, as it's user has no way to stop it for 2 seconds to heal.

CtrlAltDlt

Facepalm.

Can use the OP 5 piece bonus without a single heavy armor piece? Who wouldn't want this?

Cinbri

2 sec in battle means nothing. If it is 2 sec indeed, no further changes needed.

kkampaseb17_ESO

CtrlAltDlt wrote: »

Facepalm.

Can use the OP 5 piece bonus without a single heavy armor piece? Who wouldn't want this?

That's exactly the point and the problem

Sharee wrote: »

To me it seems that with the duration being so short, the intent behind the set is "if you need to heal, stop hitting the guy for 2 seconds".

If they wanted this set to shut down healing for an extended period of time, they would make the proc last longer. In the light of that, DOT damage should be exempt from triggering the proc, as it's user has no way to stop it for 2 seconds to heal.

Another problem...you cannot do that while you have DoTs on the enemy. Also how does it work with DoT heal? Does it check if you have the debuff on application or does it modify the healing whenever you get the debuff? In the second case it *** up stamina heals with the exception of rally burst heal....

CtrlAltDlt

I don't know.. there's no cooldown so you are essentially perma debuffed with every attack you do.. so it will be either burst them down in a few secs otherwise play defense with short offensive bursts.. correct me if I'm wrong.

kkampaseb17_ESO

CtrlAltDlt wrote: »

I don't know.. there's no cooldown so you are essentially perma debuffed with every attack you do.. so it will be either burst them down in a few secs otherwise play defense with short offensive bursts.. correct me if I'm wrong.

You can play defense only as a magica shield spamming user since this set leaves absorb shields unaffected. Try to do that as a stamina and we will laugh. A single DoT from you and GL for any meaningful healing.

Maulkin

This set needs adjustments and I partially agree with what you said. Though I'm not 100% sure what the best solution is.

I definitely agree on the DoTs issue, for sure. You can drop caltrops outside a keep and if a dude wearing the set is sitting on your caltrops, you are debuffed while fighting a bunch of guys inside the keep. It's hard to know what happening half the time.

However, I'm not sure about the Major Defile. I think its main target audience is people trying to stack it with Reverb Bash. If you completely take that away, who's gonna wear it?

Also from what I know (correct me if wrong) it stacks with Banner, which is also 50%, to cut your healing to 0. That's a bit over the top imo. I think they need to up the duration to 5" and just tone it down.

My preferred solution would involve a fair bit of rework but here goes :
1) Let's buff Minor Defile (currently nothing grants that) from 15% to 20%
2) Make the set grant Minor Defile on hits, not DoTs
3) Up the duration to 5"-6"
4) Add another bonus to the 5p-set to make up for the obvious nerf. Something like the Kagrenac double bonus.

Some suggestions on what the 5p-bonus could grant (along with Minor Defile of course):
1) A disease dot proc on your attacker (since you defiled him/her)
2) Extra armor spell/res
3) Block cost reduction
4) Flat % incoming damage reduction from players
5) Flat % incoming damage reduction from AoEs
...and so on.

All would make it a good tank set and hugely efficient when stacked with Reverb Bash, but not game breaking 80%-100% heal debuffs.

I'm just brainstorming here

kkampaseb17_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

This set needs adjustments and I partially agree with what you said. Though I'm not 100% sure what the best solution is.

I definitely agree on the DoTs issue, for sure. You can drop caltrops outside a keep and if a dude wearing the set is sitting on your caltrops, you are debuffed while fighting a bunch of guys inside the keep. It's hard to know what happening half the time.

However, I'm not sure about the Major Defile. I think its main target audience is people trying to stack it with Reverb Bash. If you completely take that away, who's gonna wear it?

Also from what I know (correct me if wrong) it stacks with Banner, which is also 50%, to cut your healing to 0. That's a bit over the top imo. I think they need to up the duration to 5" and just tone it down.

My preferred solution would involve a fair bit of rework but here goes :
1) Let's buff Minor Defile (currently nothing grants that) from 15% to 20%
2) Make the set grant Minor Defile on hits, not DoTs
3) Up the duration to 5"-6"
4) Add another bonus to the 5p-set to make up for the obvious nerf. Something like the Kagrenac double bonus.

Some suggestions on what the 5p-bonus could grant (along with Minor Defile of course):
1) A disease dot proc on your attacker (since you defiled him/her)
2) Extra armor spell/res
3) Block cost reduction
4) Flat % incoming damage reduction from players
5) Flat % incoming damage reduction from AoEs
...and so on.

All would make it a good tank set and hugely efficient when stacked with Reverb Bash, but not game breaking 80%-100% heal debuffs.

I'm just brainstorming here

Or just don't allow jewels for this set and you have to sacrifice 3 heavy armor slots. Problem partially solved.

Didgerion

Cinbri wrote: »

2 sec in battle means nothing. If it is 2 sec indeed, no further changes needed.

The OP clearly states that 2 seconds is still a problem for DOT builds. Your damage is ticking every second so this 2 seconds never ends - so for the entire duration of your DOT you cannot heal.

If you drop caltrops down and the enemy player is not getting out of it - then you must know he is crippling your heal for indefinite amount of time (not just for 2 seconds).

An if you hit a group with caltrops - then don't rely on healing either.

Maulkin

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Or just don't allow jewels for this set and you have to sacrifice 3 heavy armor slots. Problem partially solved.

Nowhere near. Wearing 5 heavy and Reverb Bashing your attacker will still cut their healing by a minimum of 80% (more with CP allocation into Defile). That's still OP as feck.

It will also break duels. It doesn't matter if you are dealing 30% less damage than your opponent due to your tanky set up. If you are healing for 100% and he is healing for 20% you will win that duel over time 99% of the times.

The whole point of the Major-Minor Buffs/Debuffs was to stop precisely that type of stacking. In 1.5 a Dark flare and a Snipe meant you could heal for 0 and we all agreed at the time it was stupid and we needed for things to not stack. Same goes the other way round with the stacking damage buffs that let you 1-shot emperors.

Now they are effectively circumventing their own Major-Minor system and are adding things that can stack to above 100% debuffs. How clever is that? Not very

kkampaseb17_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Or just don't allow jewels for this set and you have to sacrifice 3 heavy armor slots. Problem partially solved.

Nowhere near. Wearing 5 heavy and Reverb Bashing your attacker will still cut their healing by a minimum of 80% (more with CP allocation into Defile). That's still OP as feck.

It will also break duels. It doesn't matter if you are dealing 30% less damage than your opponent due to your tanky set up. If you are healing for 100% and he is healing for 20% you will win that duel over time 99% of the times.

The whole point of the Major-Minor Buffs/Debuffs was to stop precisely that type of stacking. In 1.5 a Dark flare and a Snipe meant you could heal for 0 and we all agreed at the time it was stupid and we needed for things to not stack. Same goes the other way round with the stacking damage buffs that let you 1-shot emperors.

Now they are effectively circumventing their own Major-Minor system and are adding things that can stack to above 100% debuffs. How clever is that? Not very

Agreed. That is why I said partially.

But seriously...what a mess of a DLC....No matter how much content they put in....such things just break the *** game...

cazlonb16_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

The whole point of the Major-Minor Buffs/Debuffs was to stop precisely that type of stacking. In 1.5 a Dark flare and a Snipe meant you could heal for 0 and we all agreed at the time it was stupid and we needed for things to not stack. Same goes the other way round with the stacking damage buffs that let you 1-shot emperors.

Now they are effectively circumventing their own Major-Minor system and are adding things that can stack to above 100% debuffs. How clever is that? Not very

My thoughts exactly. How can you fix one problem with a 5pc set bonus stacking with other stuff in this patch and then just turn around and introduce the next set with the exact same issue ? I get that they are trying to get people to use more different sets, but this set in its current state will achieve the exact opposite.

kkampaseb17_ESO

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

The whole point of the Major-Minor Buffs/Debuffs was to stop precisely that type of stacking. In 1.5 a Dark flare and a Snipe meant you could heal for 0 and we all agreed at the time it was stupid and we needed for things to not stack. Same goes the other way round with the stacking damage buffs that let you 1-shot emperors.

Now they are effectively circumventing their own Major-Minor system and are adding things that can stack to above 100% debuffs. How clever is that? Not very

My thoughts exactly. How can you fix one problem with a 5pc set bonus stacking with other stuff in this patch and then just turn around and introduce the next set with the exact same issue ? I get that they are trying to get people to use more different sets, but this set in its current state will achieve the exact opposite.

Exactly this. This set has just killed item diversity in PvP....full stop.

Xsorus

The 5 second Duration was fine

It just needs a % chance vs always proccing..

How is ZOS is not getting this? its a bloody copy of an already balanced set....and they're still managing to make it extremely overpowered

kkampaseb17_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

The 5 second Duration was fine

It just needs a % chance vs always proccing..

How is ZOS is not getting this? its a bloody copy of an already balanced set....and they're still managing to make it extremely overpowered

The word overpowered seems to loose its meaning in comparison of this set. It is different to make sets for 10 points value and then make a set with 15 points value. That is OPed....To make a set of 100 points value loses the scaling of balance....

DeanTheCat

Hmm, looks like a lot of replies while I was asleep.

@mike.gaziotisb16_ESO

Being able to passively inflict Major Defile is already a very powerful thing, it shouldn't be stackable with other forms of Major Defile like Reverb Bash. You can see it as the set saving you the slot where Reverb Bash would otherwise be at, translating into an advantage for the wearer. Reverb Bash being the most buggy CC in the game doesn't help either, and all this set does is encouraging more people to spam it.

@Xsorus

Durok's Bane? That set was fine as it was a 20% chance on armour and weapons only. No jewelry forces the wearer to be truly invested into tanking, unlike the current implementation of Fasalla's Guile.

sabresandiego_ESO

I changed my thoughts on this set. It is definitely not too powerful although proc on dots may have to be looked at. The debuff only lasts 2 seconds and the opportunity cost is huge, you have to give up willpower/agility jewelry and molag kena/undaunted in order to run this with a 5 piece set if you use maelstrom weapons.

Otherwise you are forced into using fasallas dual wield or 1h and shield. 2 health bonuses and healing taken is pretty crappy for pvp and turns your dmg into terrible.

The set seems like it might be a fair tradeoff and provide some diversity outside of everyone wearing agility/willpower with molag kena

kkampaseb17_ESO

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I changed my thoughts on this set. It is definitely not too powerful although proc on dots may have to be looked at. The debuff only lasts 2 seconds and the opportunity cost is huge, you have to give up willpower/agility jewelry and molag kena/undaunted in order to run this with a 5 piece set if you use maelstrom weapons.

Otherwise you are forced into using fasallas dual wield or 1h and shield. 2 health bonuses and healing taken is pretty crappy for pvp and turns your dmg into terrible.

The set seems like it might be a fair tradeoff and provide some diversity outside of everyone wearing agility/willpower with molag kena

What other set in PvP gives as a 5 piece bonus a "relative" 100% damage increase to me AND MY GROUP on targets that can heal themselves (aka every single PvPer)? And DoT part is not something it "may have to be looked".

Cinbri

Durok Bane was honestly trash set. If you say it was "good balanced" set you obviously didn't use it at a time when it was available.
None of my opponents had problems to duel me while i used this set, nor me had any problem dueling opponents who used it(and i am magicka templar whos only defense is healing). For duel i used 5 julainos 5 fasalla 2 willpower and made clear for myself 5 fasalla not worth it. Hopefully in 2vX it will be as agood as Vicious Death.
Too much theorycrafting here, zero practice.

RoyJade

In my opinion, the set shouldn't proc on multi-hit dot (that mean curse, mine and especially detonation should proc it).
For the stacking part, why not applies major defile and a weak disease damage (so minor defile) at the same time ? It still 45% less healing if I remember, and without stacking.

Oh and we must need at least 3 heavy armor piece to get the 5cp bonus, really. It's a tank set, not a dps set, only dps would truly exploit it at this rate.

DeanTheCat

Cinbri wrote: »

Durok Bane was honestly trash set. If you say it was "good balanced" set you obviously didn't use it at a time when it was available.
None of my opponents had problems to duel me while i used this set, nor me had any problem dueling opponents who used it(and i am magicka templar whos only defense is healing). For duel i used 5 julainos 5 fasalla 2 willpower and made clear for myself 5 fasalla not worth it. Hopefully in 2vX it will be as agood as Vicious Death.
Too much theorycrafting here, zero practice.

Durok's Bane also didn't have a 100% chance of proccing

This means that you could have potentially 100% uptime or 0% uptime, though averaging it out will result in a 20-40% uptime on the debuff, which was manageable. Durok's Bane also existed during an era without the 50% cut to all healing that we currently get in Cyrodiil, which meant that smaller ticking heals were also viable and not just the huge spikes of today.

Fasalla's Guile of today will render all but the most healing focused Templars irrelevant for healing, as to combat the huge healing cut, you need the strongest burst heals available. Which is pretty much Rushed Ceremony or the newly buffed Burning Embers with Major Mending.

Maulkin

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Hmm, looks like a lot of replies while I was asleep.

@mike.gaziotisb16_ESO

Being able to passively inflict Major Defile is already a very powerful thing, it shouldn't be stackable with other forms of Major Defile like Reverb Bash. You can see it as the set saving you the slot where Reverb Bash would otherwise be at, translating into an advantage for the wearer. Reverb Bash being the most buggy CC in the game doesn't help either, and all this set does is encouraging more people to spam it.

Hmm? Majors and Minors are supposed to be stacked, that's the whole point of the system. I proposed the set granting Minor defile and nerfing it to 20% for 6". Instead of its current 50% for 2".

You can stack every other Major and Minor and sacrificing a 5-piece bonus to get Minor Defile is fine by me.

The issues with Reverb Bash CC are another issue altogether. You should't be discouraging people to use skills, you should be just fixing them so they can use them without being branded cheaters/haxers/abusers etc.

DeanTheCat

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Hmm, looks like a lot of replies while I was asleep.

@mike.gaziotisb16_ESO

Being able to passively inflict Major Defile is already a very powerful thing, it shouldn't be stackable with other forms of Major Defile like Reverb Bash. You can see it as the set saving you the slot where Reverb Bash would otherwise be at, translating into an advantage for the wearer. Reverb Bash being the most buggy CC in the game doesn't help either, and all this set does is encouraging more people to spam it.

Hmm? Majors and Minors are supposed to be stacked, that's the whole point of the system. I proposed the set granting Minor defile and nerfing it to 20% for 6". Instead of its current 50% for 2".

You can stack every other Major and Minor and sacrificing a 5-piece bonus to get Minor Defile is fine by me.

The issues with Reverb Bash CC are another issue altogether. You should't be discouraging people to use skills, you should be just fixing them so they can use them without being branded cheaters/haxers/abusers etc.

Minor Defile is already present in the game as-is. It comes from disease damage, and is the side effect of the status effect "Befouled". This means that the set negates the disease enchants on weapons + werewolf. I wouldn't mind if the set would be Minor Defile, as it's still an AoE healing reduction, but it loses a lot of potency as it's not possible to reverb bash every single member of a raid alone. Making the set to be Minor Defile pretty much forces the use of Major Defile to be even worth the 5pc. This would likely be seen as "Too much of an investment". I'm trying to keep the set useful while not pushing it to "OP as F" territory (Still needs not to work on DoTs though)

I think I wrote a thread about Reverb Bash in the past changing it to a knockdown so as the avoid the buggy CC-aspect, but that thread got completely ignored and forgotten. As Zenimax doesn't seem like they are ever going to fix Reverb Bash, all I can do really is try to dissuade people from using that skill, even though I know it's an excellent skill to use. But yes, Reverb Bash's CC isn't the topic here.

Bashev

The set should proc only on AoE attacks (All) and its duration should be increased to 5-6 seconds. It should be 50% healing debuff. This could help that the set is not OP for small scale.

Turelus

Paging Mr @Wrobel Mr @Wrobel please check this thread, thank you.

Also for the chance someone at ZOS might actually see this and change it before it's FotM and we need to fix it in three months.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Maulkin

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Making the set to be Minor Defile pretty much forces the use of Major Defile to be even worth the 5pc. This would likely be seen as "Too much of an investment".

Which is why I suggested adding another bonus to the 5-piece, like Kagrenac gives faster rezes and spell damage. My personal favourite would be a block cost reduction.

5 piece - Reduces the cost of blocking by 10% and infects your attacker with Minor Defile for 6".

There, you got a useful 5-piece tank set with AoE Minor Defile. Useful to have in groups even without Reverb Bash. Usable by magicka tanks as well.

Considering we haven't had a generic tank set usable by magicka or stamina since Memento of the Footman (Reactive Armor was stamina focused) that would be quite nice

DeanTheCat

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Making the set to be Minor Defile pretty much forces the use of Major Defile to be even worth the 5pc. This would likely be seen as "Too much of an investment".

Which is why I suggested adding another bonus to the 5-piece, like Kagrenac gives faster rezes and spell damage. My personal favourite would be a block cost reduction.

5 piece - Reduces the cost of blocking by 10% and infects your attacker with Minor Defile for 6".

There, you got a useful 5-piece tank set with AoE Minor Defile. Useful to have in groups even without Reverb Bash. Usable by magicka tanks as well.

Considering we haven't had a generic tank set usable by magicka or stamina since Memento of the Footman (Reactive Armor was stamina focused) that would be quite nice

I can see a lot of money being made selling this to PvE tanks

Good idea. It fixes the set while being useful even in a non-group situation without being completely overpowered. This change combined with the change not to proc on DoTs should solve most of the gripes with the set.