A better option to fix shield stacking

Derra

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

Please - as of now (pts) a shield no longer negates proccs (apart from winterborn set hey @ZOS_GinaBruno is there a fix incoming?) and dots.

On top of that impen gear + cp crit reduction have greater effect than no crit on shields because that dmg is mitigated (the biggest mistake at this point would be critable shields because you´d do the same dmg to shields you´re doing now but the sorcs HP would be far more valuable).

DK has strong passive healing on three of their main offensive abilities and other defensive skills on top of that.
Templar has strong passive healing on one main offensive ability and still the best on demand instantheal in the game.

As of now investing into stam and wpndmg offers you more dmg and better heals for stambuilds. As of now investing into magica and spelldmg offers you more healing and dmg as NB, Templar and DK.
Sorcs classdefense is the only defense only scaling with resource and not maindmg attribute.

The sorc shield is a pure defensive skill without secondary effects whereas the dk and templar shields are utility skills (blazing shield admittedly is really bad atm but thats not a problem with the sorc skill).
The sorc shield does not serve the same purpose as the temp or DK shield.

What i´m trying to say: You´re comparing apples and broccoli when comparing different classshields or classes for that matter.

Mumyo

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

Please - as of now (pts) a shield no longer negates proccs (apart from winterborn set hey @ZOS_GinaBruno is there a fix incoming?) and dots.

On top of that impen gear + cp crit reduction have greater effect than no crit on shields because that dmg is mitigated.

DK has strong passive healing on three of their main offensive abilities and other defensive skills on top of that.
Templar has strong passive healing on one main offensive ability and still the best on demand instantheal in the game.

As of now investing into stam and wpndmg offers you more dmg and better heals for stambuilds. As of now investing into magica and spelldmg offers you more healing and dmg as NB, Templar and DK.
Sorcs classdefense is the only defense only scaling with resource and not maindmg attribute.

The sorc shield is a pure defensive skill without secondary effects whereas the dk and templar shields are utility skills (blazing shield admittedly is really bad atm but thats not a problem with the sorc skill).
The sorc shield does not serve the same purpose as the temp or DK shield.

Proccs too? Last testing i did on live showed be that burning light or morkuldin couldnt procc on shields. I didnt do any testing on pts since i wait for the eu characters to be copied. Are you sure with that? I mean that would xchange alot.

Derra

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

Please - as of now (pts) a shield no longer negates proccs (apart from winterborn set hey @ZOS_GinaBruno is there a fix incoming?) and dots.

On top of that impen gear + cp crit reduction have greater effect than no crit on shields because that dmg is mitigated.

DK has strong passive healing on three of their main offensive abilities and other defensive skills on top of that.
Templar has strong passive healing on one main offensive ability and still the best on demand instantheal in the game.

As of now investing into stam and wpndmg offers you more dmg and better heals for stambuilds. As of now investing into magica and spelldmg offers you more healing and dmg as NB, Templar and DK.
Sorcs classdefense is the only defense only scaling with resource and not maindmg attribute.

The sorc shield is a pure defensive skill without secondary effects whereas the dk and templar shields are utility skills (blazing shield admittedly is really bad atm but thats not a problem with the sorc skill).
The sorc shield does not serve the same purpose as the temp or DK shield.

Proccs too? Last testing i did on live showed be that burning light or morkuldin couldnt procc on shields. I didnt do any testing on pts since i wait for the eu characters to be copied. Are you sure with that? I mean that would xchange alot.

Every procc not working on shields on pts is a bug and you should report that to get it fixed.

Afaik morkulding should already work on shields - atleast @LegendaryChef is using that set to great success against sorcs.

Mumyo

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

Please - as of now (pts) a shield no longer negates proccs (apart from winterborn set hey @ZOS_GinaBruno is there a fix incoming?) and dots.

On top of that impen gear + cp crit reduction have greater effect than no crit on shields because that dmg is mitigated.

DK has strong passive healing on three of their main offensive abilities and other defensive skills on top of that.
Templar has strong passive healing on one main offensive ability and still the best on demand instantheal in the game.

As of now investing into stam and wpndmg offers you more dmg and better heals for stambuilds. As of now investing into magica and spelldmg offers you more healing and dmg as NB, Templar and DK.
Sorcs classdefense is the only defense only scaling with resource and not maindmg attribute.

The sorc shield is a pure defensive skill without secondary effects whereas the dk and templar shields are utility skills (blazing shield admittedly is really bad atm but thats not a problem with the sorc skill).
The sorc shield does not serve the same purpose as the temp or DK shield.

Proccs too? Last testing i did on live showed be that burning light or morkuldin couldnt procc on shields. I didnt do any testing on pts since i wait for the eu characters to be copied. Are you sure with that? I mean that would xchange alot.

Every procc not working on shields on pts is a bug and you should report that to get it fixed.

Afaik morkulding should already work on shields - atleast @LegendaryChef is using that set to great success against sorcs.

That would indeed solve many problems, as said i only know about the live version and the dots changes.
Proccs are new to me.

Septimus_Magna

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna

No... forget what you know of the present meta.

Cyrodill debuf will be thrown out the window concerning shields. It will no longer be needed. Shields will also have the players full mitigation applied to its damage. That also means the damage is reduced by impen and the overflow is handled properly. Your shields won't be taking massive damage unless you literally build your character out of toiletpaper. Shield breaker set and the CP changes should also be removed.

ie.
Lets say you have a 40K magicka sorc. Thats 4K initial shield which is increasing at say 2000 - 3000 per second depending on the regeneration multiplier. The sorc, if smart, will enter battle with no less than 20k Shield strength.

That's fair. Especially since all mitigation is applied to the shield and it is regenerating constantly. The sorc will not be able to run around naked, stack max damage and just spam zomg lol shields whenever they want. They will need to think about their shield protection. Obviously, the initial, max and multiplier values can be tweaked for balance.

All core class shields would work the same way. If a DK casts a shield on a sorc who already has a hardened ward up. It would run the same checks, refreshing the sorc shields duration and looking to see if the sorc shield is below the minimum shield value, boosting its strength if a successful check is made.

Healing ward would behave a little differently. It would apply an initial minimum shield value based upon the targets missing health. The effect would last 6 seconds. Instead of the shield increasing in strength over time like core class shields, it would instead regenerate your health pool until it expires or the shield is depleted.

This essentially means that healing ward would stack in a very different way to how it presently works on live.
If a sorc is at say 50% health and they cast hardened ward followed by healing ward, the effect would be ->

Hardened ward applies a 4k shield and begins regenerating at 2 - 3k per second. Healing ward boosts the initial shield strength a little higher if it is below its minimum shield strength while regenerating the sorcs actual HP.

Ward ally should work similar to healing ward.

Annulment and boneshield are a bit of a problem and are in need of a redesign.

So make sorcs great gankers and crap in normal fights?

A DK/NB can whip/SA the 4k shield away in 1 hit, how would a sorc defend himself from someone spamming that?

Your proposal is just like a HOTs which is often fairly useless because the danger in pvp usually comes from burst dmg. Sorcs have 1 armor buff, no reliable heals and a crippled movement skill so without a strong Hardened Ward sorcs will be nothing.

It could be an interesting option for Harness Magicka though, just not for Hardened Ward.

Robbmrp

I still believe that the best fix for this is to allow the highest SINGLE damage shield available for all classes. If your current shield is lower than another being cast, then you get the bigger shield plain and simple.

If a Sorc has 3k damage left on their shield and an 8k Barrier comes along, why wouldn't they want it? It's a free shield with 0 cost to them. Once that's gone, they could cast their own.

LegendaryChef

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

Please - as of now (pts) a shield no longer negates proccs (apart from winterborn set hey @ZOS_GinaBruno is there a fix incoming?) and dots.

On top of that impen gear + cp crit reduction have greater effect than no crit on shields because that dmg is mitigated.

DK has strong passive healing on three of their main offensive abilities and other defensive skills on top of that.
Templar has strong passive healing on one main offensive ability and still the best on demand instantheal in the game.

As of now investing into stam and wpndmg offers you more dmg and better heals for stambuilds. As of now investing into magica and spelldmg offers you more healing and dmg as NB, Templar and DK.
Sorcs classdefense is the only defense only scaling with resource and not maindmg attribute.

The sorc shield is a pure defensive skill without secondary effects whereas the dk and templar shields are utility skills (blazing shield admittedly is really bad atm but thats not a problem with the sorc skill).
The sorc shield does not serve the same purpose as the temp or DK shield.

Proccs too? Last testing i did on live showed be that burning light or morkuldin couldnt procc on shields. I didnt do any testing on pts since i wait for the eu characters to be copied. Are you sure with that? I mean that would xchange alot.

Every procc not working on shields on pts is a bug and you should report that to get it fixed.

Afaik morkulding should already work on shields - atleast @LegendaryChef is using that set to great success against sorcs.

Can confirm Mork procs on shields, actually tested it again yesterday on live to double check

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

So make sorcs great gankers and crap in normal fights?

A DK/NB can whip/SA the 4k shield away in 1 hit, how would a sorc defend himself from someone spamming that?

Your proposal is just like a HOTs which is often fairly useless because the danger in pvp usually comes from burst dmg. Sorcs have 1 armor buff, no reliable heals and a crippled movement skill so without a strong Hardened Ward sorcs will be nothing.

It could be an interesting option for Harness Magicka though, just not for Hardened Ward.

The numbers I used are completely arbitrary. Why are you so hung up on the 4K value. The beauty of this system is the interaction between shields. I also stated that shields will gain full benefit of mitigation "this includes block" and the overflow will go through your physical armor. The shield is also regenerating constantly so it's not even 4k. It's 4k + regeneration and those shields regenerate constantly until it is completely dispelled. You'll also be able to chain cast it or couple it with healing ward still. The mitigation will be fine.

Hardened ward could be set to 20% initially or 30%. Those numbers would have to be tested but to blanket reject the idea just because you don't like the 4k number? Seriously?

ToRelax

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

it physical exclusive -> force every Sorc to actually stack shields
increase cost -> completely useless with our resources and Harness Magicka
reduce scaling -> force every Sorc to stack as much magicka as possible

I hope you just didn't think this through...

1. Why not?
2. With whose resources? If you'll stack recovery and price reduction - you will loose in damage
3. Every magicka sorc is already stack resources as much as possible, guess why? Hardened ward benefits too much from it.

1. Because it cuts build diversity.

that's a bad thing!

2. with anyone's resources who isn't dumb enough to run as low stats as 1.5
3. I could easily stack another 12-13k magicka if I had to. Again, this cuts into build diversity.

1. Sorcs destroys build diversity for other classes: or you stack spelldmg and magicka pool size or you can't kill em because he refreshes hw faster than you can deal 35k damage.
2. So what?
3. You want to say, that you can reach 57k of magicka, good luck with that. Anyway It will not return same HW strength with 1.5 reduction, but you'll lack or regen, or damage.

1. Sorcs aren't the only ones hard to kill. If you didn't have to stack damage to kill a Sorc, you'd still have to do it if you want to kill a Templar.
2. So your proposal to increase the cost of Hardened Ward won't solve anything.
3. No, I want to say I can reach close to 50k if I wanted to. Maybe now you believe me not every Sorc stacks magicka as high as possible? And that your proposal would thus further decrease build diversity?

xAPxZeez

Some good discussions and ideas. Just like to point out that sorcs do not have class healing like dks and Templars sure vigor but it's weak for magicka and available to everyone.

Sorcs are squishy damage dealers which rely on shields for survival

Each class has its pros and cons this thread was to discuss how to "fix" damage shields without making them worthless.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

I've given it a little bit more thought. The more I think about it, the more I like the solution I put forth. I honestly can't see any downside to it. It's just an overall good change. It doesn't screw sorcs. It allows the removal of the horrible shield changes from battle spirit which gives DK's and Templars their shields back and it allows the interaction of multiple shield effects without creating a solution where a player can have a ridiculous amount of shields due to stacking.

So again...

Shields will have 5 core variables. A minimum shield strength. A maximum shield strength. A physical health pool regeneration component. A shield regeneration component and a current shield strength.

The minimum and maximum shield strength can scale off of any pool they choose. Magicka, stamina, health or even ultimate. IMO, the most balanced pool they could add is to scale it off of health. The reason is that health is a strictly defensive and largely useless stat. Shields are defensive in nature and players should not be able to stack damage stats, giving them the best damage as well as being rewarded with the best mitigation. It also adds value to tank builds.

The physical health pool regeneration component is exactly what it sounds like and will usually be set to zero. The exception would be the restoration staffs ward line. Restoration wards will regenerate your physical health pool while the shield is on you or until the healing components duration is in effect.

The shield regeneration component is any variable which is used to regenerate the shield strength up to the maximum shield strength or until the shield is depleted. Variables used would be either health regeneration, magicka regeneration or stamina regeneration.

Current shield strength is self explanatory.

How does all this work in practice?

Note well that the numbers used in any of these examples are completely arbitrary. Do not take them seriously,. Instead look at the core mechanics and observe how they interact.

Scenario 1

A sorc with 20k health and 1k magicka regeneration is at 100% hp and casts Hardened ward followed by healing ward.

Hardened ward

Duration 20 seconds
minimum shield strength 20% of max health
Maximum shield strength 50% of max health
Regenerates shield strength based off of magicka regeneration. 2x multiplier.

Healing ward

Duration 6 seconds
Minimum shield strength 50% of missing health remaining
Regenerates your physical health pool while the the shield is in effect.

Hardened ward will apply 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10K shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Aka max shields will occur after 3 seconds. Casting healing ward immediately after will have absolute no effect on hardened ward because its minimum shield strength at 100% health will be ZERO. Healing ward will also regenerate 0 actual HP per second for 6 seconds.

Scenario 2

A sorc casts hardened ward followed by healing ward while at 20% health. 80% of 20k is 16000 health

Hardened ward will add the 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10k shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Healing ward, in this case would apply an 8000 minimum shield strength overwriting hardened wards current shield strength. Healing ward will then regenerate the sorcs actual HP until the shield is fully expired or the 6 second regeneration duration is met. During this time, hardened ward will continue to grow its shields as the shield is not fully expired. It will regenerate from 8000 up to its maximum of 10000 provided no further damage is taken.

Scenario 3

No lets introduce the Barrier ultimate and see what effect it will cause.

Barrier

Shield strength is 50 times current ultimate.
Maximum shield strength is capped at 20000. (400 ultimate to achieve max shield strength, 10000 if cast at 200 ultimate.)

Let's assume the same sorc, while at 20% HP, casts hardened ward, followed by healing ward, followed by a maxxed barrier.

Hardened ward will add the 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10k shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Healing ward, in this case would apply an 8000 minimum shield strength overwriting hardened wards actual shield strength. Healing ward will then regenerate the sorcs actual HP until the shield is fully expired or the 6 second regeneration duration is met. During this time, hardened ward will continue to grow its shields as the shield is not fully expired. It will regenerate from 8000 up to its maximum of 10000 provided no further damage is taken. Barrier is cast which sets the current shield size to 20 000. As hardened ward's maximum shield strength has been exceeded it will stop regenerating the shield strength and will not regenerate anymore until the current shield strength is less than its maximum shield strength.

In any scenario where multiple shields with different regeneration rates, maximum or minimum shield strengths interact, the shield with the highest value will override the other.

So if a shield with 2k regeneration rate and a 10k max is stacked with a 3k regeneration rate and 6k max, the actual shield in effect will be 3k regeneration and 10k max. The shield will continue to have those values until the duration's are met or it is depleted.

As I said earlier, these numbers are arbitrary and would also depend on whether or not actual character mitigations, including block, are allowed to apply. IMO, the game would be far better if all character mitigations and damage apply to shields. If not all, then at least partial. This would add a lot more diversity to builds. It would incentivize giving thought to defenses rather than just stacking damage. All shield overflow should filter through players mitigation.

Their are two shields which still would prove to be problematic, annulment and bone wall. Both can be either converted or altered for continuity.

Solariken

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

It seems to me that stopping 100% of damage is the biggest unbalancing factor. Why don't magical shields stop only 50% of incoming damage? Not including passives and other abilities, a physical shield only absorbs 50% when blocking.

What if magic shields used up Magicka when absorbing a hit? While blocking, Stamina is depleted when a physical shield absorbs damage.

Mmm I love this idea. So yummy.

ToRelax

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I've given it a little bit more thought. The more I think about it, the more I like the solution I put forth. I honestly can't see any downside to it. It's just an overall good change. It doesn't screw sorcs. It allows the removal of the horrible shield changes from battle spirit which gives DK's and Templars their shields back and it allows the interaction of multiple shield effects without creating a solution where a player can have a ridiculous amount of shields due to stacking.

So again...

Shields will have 5 core variables. A minimum shield strength. A maximum shield strength. A physical health pool regeneration component. A shield regeneration component and a current shield strength.

The minimum and maximum shield strength can scale off of any pool they choose. Magicka, stamina, health or even ultimate. IMO, the most balanced pool they could add is to scale it off of health. The reason is that health is a strictly defensive and largely useless stat. Shields are defensive in nature and players should not be able to stack damage stats, giving them the best damage as well as being rewarded with the best mitigation. It also adds value to tank builds.

The physical health pool regeneration component is exactly what it sounds like and will usually be set to zero. The exception would be the restoration staffs ward line. Restoration wards will regenerate your physical health pool while the shield is on you or until the healing components duration is in effect.

The shield regeneration component is any variable which is used to regenerate the shield strength up to the maximum shield strength or until the shield is depleted. Variables used would be either health regeneration, magicka regeneration or stamina regeneration.

Current shield strength is self explanatory.

How does all this work in practice?

Note well that the numbers used in any of these examples are completely arbitrary. Do not take them seriously,. Instead look at the core mechanics and observe how they interact.

Scenario 1

A sorc with 20k health and 1k magicka regeneration is at 100% hp and casts Hardened ward followed by healing ward.

Hardened ward

Duration 20 seconds
minimum shield strength 20% of max health
Maximum shield strength 50% of max health
Regenerates shield strength based off of magicka regeneration. 2x multiplier.

Healing ward

Duration 6 seconds
Minimum shield strength 50% of missing health remaining
Regenerates your physical health pool while the the shield is in effect.

Hardened ward will apply 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10K shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Aka max shields will occur after 3 seconds. Casting healing ward immediately after will have absolute no effect on hardened ward because its minimum shield strength at 100% health will be ZERO. Healing ward will also regenerate 0 actual HP per second for 6 seconds.

Scenario 2

A sorc casts hardened ward followed by healing ward while at 20% health. 80% of 20k is 16000 health

Hardened ward will add the 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10k shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Healing ward, in this case would apply an 8000 minimum shield strength overwriting hardened wards current shield strength. Healing ward will then regenerate the sorcs actual HP until the shield is fully expired or the 6 second regeneration duration is met. During this time, hardened ward will continue to grow its shields as the shield is not fully expired. It will regenerate from 8000 up to its maximum of 10000 provided no further damage is taken.

Scenario 3

No lets introduce the Barrier ultimate and see what effect it will cause.

Barrier

Shield strength is 50 times current ultimate.
Maximum shield strength is capped at 20000. (400 ultimate to achieve max shield strength, 10000 if cast at 200 ultimate.)

Let's assume the same sorc, while at 20% HP, casts hardened ward, followed by healing ward, followed by a maxxed barrier.

Hardened ward will add the 4k minimum shield and will begin regenerating at 2000 shields per second until it hits 10k shields or until it is removed completely via damage. Healing ward, in this case would apply an 8000 minimum shield strength overwriting hardened wards actual shield strength. Healing ward will then regenerate the sorcs actual HP until the shield is fully expired or the 6 second regeneration duration is met. During this time, hardened ward will continue to grow its shields as the shield is not fully expired. It will regenerate from 8000 up to its maximum of 10000 provided no further damage is taken. Barrier is cast which sets the current shield size to 20 000. As hardened ward's maximum shield strength has been exceeded it will stop regenerating the shield strength and will not regenerate anymore until the current shield strength is less than its maximum shield strength.

In any scenario where multiple shields with different regeneration rates, maximum or minimum shield strengths interact, the shield with the highest value will override the other.

So if a shield with 2k regeneration rate and a 10k max is stacked with a 3k regeneration rate and 6k max, the actual shield in effect will be 3k regeneration and 10k max. The shield will continue to have those values until the duration's are met or it is depleted.

As I said earlier, these numbers are arbitrary and would also depend on whether or not actual character mitigations, including block, are allowed to apply. IMO, the game would be far better if all character mitigations and damage apply to shields. If not all, then at least partial. This would add a lot more diversity to builds. It would incentivize giving thought to defenses rather than just stacking damage. All shield overflow should filter through players mitigation.

Their are two shields which still would prove to be problematic, annulment and bone wall. Both can be either converted or altered for continuity.

I mostly like the idea... but I don't quite see how to balance it. In the current burst meta, it would often not be worth it to cast a Ward then, especially after the update when DoTs could just keep you from shielding up. But if the meta shifted towards less damage and more demanding resource management, then a single cast would be insanely powerful.

FriedEggSandwich

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

Mess about the sorc is that he simply gains EVERYTHING by stacking only 1 ressource (offense and defense).
Thats pretty much of a fail and bad game design.

That´s pretty much true for all builds. Claiming this to be a sorcerer exclusive feature just isn´t true.
Skills scaling on health are pretty much an exception (on top of my head it´s three?).

It is an exclusive. U dont really have to care about your healthpool at all. Anyone else sacrifices damage for surviveability and the other way around. Sorcs mostly dont. Ur magicka actually gives u something way stronger than health itself. U gain damage and shieldpower off one stroke and that is unique.
I am not speaking about things scaling off health, im just saying that no other class can afford to put everything into 1 ressource because they would simply be a 1hit.

I dont want to go too deep into that but i for myself think that its poorly designed.

Who cares about their healthpool care to give an example? Or are you talking about drink builds because if that´s the case i can assure you a sorc with a drink build and no health bonuses isn´t survivable either.

I´m reading all the time about trading dmg for survivability - yet i never meet those ppl.

Derra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Why not simply make either all shields in the game scale off max magicka, or all shields scale off max health?

Sorc shield scaling on max health would be the same as breath of life scaling of max health.

It would be as strong as the dk shield and the templar shield first of all or just as dragon blood.
A heal is far from being the same as a shield. A shield negates proccs, crits and (dots).

Now as a sorc, investing into magicka offers u the stronger shield and the stronger attack.
As anyone else: If i want to achieve such great protection, I'd need to reach about 35k health.(Tanky, yes but dmg?Nope.)
Leading to a lack of ressources on the other ends.
A issue that a Sorc doesnt have.

I also dont think that making it scale off health would be a good solution. It could be enough to just enable proccs and dots as first step.

10k heal > 10k shield. In the upcoming patch the only thing shields will negate are crits. Due to resistances it's easier to break a 10k shield than do 10k damage to someone's health pool, even if you factor in crits from an average player.

Septimus_Magna

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

So make sorcs great gankers and crap in normal fights?

A DK/NB can whip/SA the 4k shield away in 1 hit, how would a sorc defend himself from someone spamming that?

Your proposal is just like a HOTs which is often fairly useless because the danger in pvp usually comes from burst dmg. Sorcs have 1 armor buff, no reliable heals and a crippled movement skill so without a strong Hardened Ward sorcs will be nothing.

It could be an interesting option for Harness Magicka though, just not for Hardened Ward.

The numbers I used are completely arbitrary. Why are you so hung up on the 4K value. The beauty of this system is the interaction between shields. I also stated that shields will gain full benefit of mitigation "this includes block" and the overflow will go through your physical armor. The shield is also regenerating constantly so it's not even 4k. It's 4k + regeneration and those shields regenerate constantly until it is completely dispelled. You'll also be able to chain cast it or couple it with healing ward still. The mitigation will be fine.

Hardened ward could be set to 20% initially or 30%. Those numbers would have to be tested but to blanket reject the idea just because you don't like the 4k number? Seriously?

Im not huge up by any numbers, just by the concept of regenerating shields. The number was there to illustrate that it will make shields useless vs contstant pressure.

The shieldstacking problem has been overcomplicated by introducing item sets and CPs to counter it.

Just remove hardened stacking with harness, by removing 2 variables (magic dmg and magic shield) the values of hardened and healing ward will be easier to balance vs both stamina and magicka builds.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The number was there to illustrate that it will make shields useless vs contstant pressure.

That doesn't even make sense. That's like saying HOTS don't counter DOTS. A regenerating shield, which is subject to a players full mitigation, absolutely would be effective at countering dots. The burst is countered by whatever arbitrary minimum shield value is used.

I think a lot of players posting are under the impression they aren't supposed to die. If you have anymore than 2 competent players beating on you while you're stacking no mitigation other than shields... you absolutely SHOULD die. No player that has built themselves for pure damage has any business being tanky... period!. You want to do damage.. great! You have to sacrifice survivability for that. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be more survivable, stack health, mitigation and magicka regen. Congratulations, your shields will now be beastmode. You just don't get to go around ZOMG lol nuking people at the same time.

ToRelax

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The number was there to illustrate that it will make shields useless vs contstant pressure.

That doesn't even make sense. That's like saying HOTS don't counter DOTS. A regenerating shield which is subject to a players full mitigation absolutely would be effective at countering dots. The burst is countered by whatever arbitrary minimum shield value is there.

I think a lot of players posting are under the impression they aren't supposed to die. If you have anymore than 2 competent players beating on you while you're stacking no mitigation other than shields... you absolutely SHOULD die. No player that has built themselves for pure damage has any business being tanky... period!. You want to do damage.. great! You have to sacrifice survivability for that. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be more survivable, stack health, mitigation and magicka regen. Congratulations, your shields will now be beastmode. You just don't get to go around ZOMG lol nuking people at the same time.

Actually it makes perfect sense, since the shield will be non existant once broken, unlike HoTs, plus it's very purpose is protection from burst damage.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

No.. it really doesn't. You are both still complaining about arbitrary values.

There is absolutely nothing stopping them from bumping up the minimum shield value. Nothing at all. They can set it as big as they want. They can change the regeneration rate or max shield value to whatever multiplier they want. Most importantly, this system gives Zenimax 100% control over how shields interact with damage and other shields.

Recasting the shields works in this system exactly the same as on live. The current shields is always set to the minimum if the minimum is greater. The minimum is your burst counter and the recharge is a counter to dots or allows you to build up your shields for a keep charge when you know your going to take a lot of damage just getting through the door. Shields will still be amazing good. It's a win for everybody.

Septimus_Magna

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

No.. it really doesn't. You are both still complaining about arbitrary values.

There is absolutely nothing stopping them from bumping up the minimum shield value. Nothing at all. They can set it as big as they want. They can change the regeneration rate or max shield value to whatever multiplier they want. Most importantly, this system gives Zenimax 100% control over how shields interact with damage and other shields.

This will only introduce a new set of problems.

Im fine if they would apply such a change to harness but it would too much for hardened.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

Like what? What problems will it introduce?

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

since ZOS so loves to nerf everything into the ground.

let sources 'enjoy' the benefit of no more magicka regeneration while they have a shield up.
Plus, any time any of their shield has been hit, 5 seconds without bolt escape working at all.

If that medicine is good enough for tanks and NBs, it should be just the thing for sorcs.

P.S.: Not going to happen, but hey fair is fair.

ToRelax

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Like what? What problems will it introduce?

I already told you... you can't balance that kind of skill properly. It will either be too weak or too powerful. That's because it goes against the actual purpose of shields, wich is protecting squishy mages from being burst down. When you take part of that feature away but make the shield more powerful in another way, then the user will either lack something he lost or gain something he didn't need in the first place. Really can't say it any simpler.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

since ZOS so loves to nerf everything into the ground.

let sources 'enjoy' the benefit of no more magicka regeneration while they have a shield up.
Plus, any time any of their shield has been hit, 5 seconds without bolt escape working at all.

If that medicine is good enough for tanks and NBs, it should be just the thing for sorcs.

P.S.: Not going to happen, but hey fair is fair.

Sure, though with that logic we could as well introduce a Cloak breaker set after all, right?

Lava_Croft

ToRelax wrote: »

It still has some of the problems as the buff system, as it makes smaller additional shields irrelevant. But other than the buff system, at least it wouldn't streamline all shields, thus taking out any customization and without a major balance overhaul (we know how that would go) bring a whole lot new problems.
IMO, there has to be an effort to redesign Annulment and Healing Ward, diversify the available defensive actions, not downright nerf them.

These two skills are the main problems when it comes to shields being 'too strong'.

xAPxZeez

If my original solution is too hard to implement then like others have said just make hardened ward and harness magicka exclusive, you can use either but not both. Then people can still benefit from other damage shields and it won't break other shield interactions like the blocking champion tree passive.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

My (not so old) idea for shield balancing, and shield stacking. Someone wanna up my thread from the graveyard ?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/215648/a-smart-and-fair-solution-for-shield-stacking-and-shield-breaker-set-changes/p1

Essiaga

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Shields and the way they interact are completely tied to the design of the class...you can add DOTs on them now and there is CP passive for it, plus the train wreck set that is shield breaker...ppl should figure out one day that a sorc with no stam left is dead meat and that's how you fight us...by attacking our stamina pool.

That is correct but its hard to get through stam pool with Ward and streak. Your not dodge rolling. Your not blocking. In some cases you don't have to worry about CC break because of the power of shield stacking. It takes longer to effect the Sorc's HP and stam pool because of those 2 tools, and then you have both major and minor ward/resolve (not that mitigation means much) expedition. Toss down a mines and you're healing while damaging, and CC. Oh and your attacking and CCing while avoiding damage and preserving stamina via Streak ... Its a very powerful, well equipped class that matches up well against all comers, thought Reflective Scales can pose some problem.

Everyone hates BOL but considering the utter lack of mobility and Battle Spirit nerf of Sun Shield ... What does Templars have? Even if we block or dodge roll a WB we're just about out of stamina. If we eat the wrecking blow ... were just about out of stamina. Pressure till out of stam and CC to stop BOL and burst down. Sorc's complain about Ambush spam ... experience it as a templar when you need to get off BOL as your only means of survival.

In short I agree with you 100%. Shields are tied to the design of the class and something needs to be done to shields so that Battle Spirit will no longer effect the Templar's and the DK's tools. They feel broken. Then again the design of the Templar has had been altered by the removal of Blinding Flashes as well as Sun Shields BS nerf. It's weak, where it was once strong and gets weaker in the same way ever major update. "Stand your ground" has come to mean "group up or die."

Sorry of the rant. I'm having an identity crisis.

Essiaga

iTzStevey wrote: »

Just make harness and hardened unstackable, problem solved.

Still the matter of battle Spirit nerf to Templar and DK Shields.

I also don't think Healing Ward should stack with Hardened. You have a pre-heal on you and another pre-heal plus a heal. BOL does 10-15k heal the moment its needed and if it doesn't hit Templars dead. Ward lets the Sorc streak around dropping damage for twice as long with very little threat of death and then just recast ward and get another life. I don't think they need the added shields plus heal. Use Blessing of Restoration

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

it physical exclusive -> force every Sorc to actually stack shields
increase cost -> completely useless with our resources and Harness Magicka
reduce scaling -> force every Sorc to stack as much magicka as possible

I hope you just didn't think this through...

1. Why not?
2. With whose resources? If you'll stack recovery and price reduction - you will loose in damage
3. Every magicka sorc is already stack resources as much as possible, guess why? Hardened ward benefits too much from it.

Base all shields off health and magicka regen ... stam builds and tanks will still get use and magicka builds will get added mitigation and defensive they lack.

Stacking mitigation by stacking damages is utterly stupid.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Many people here are undervaluing armor based mitigation and it's multiplicative effect on health and heals. It is far better than crit resistance, because in pvp, massive crit resistance is easy, and a no-brainer tradeoff (6% more crit chance, or taking 24% less crit damage, hmmmm.... Do I really need to think about this?)

Now that procs should be working on shields, and there is a counter balance to Bastion, we need to see how PvP shakes out

Xeven

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Many people here are undervaluing armor based mitigation and it's multiplicative effect on health and heals. It is far better than crit resistance, because in pvp, massive crit resistance is easy, and a no-brainer tradeoff (6% more crit chance, or taking 24% less crit damage, hmmmm.... Do I really need to think about this?)

Now that procs should be working on shields, and there is a counter balance to Bastion, we need to see how PvP shakes out

This. Throw hardy on top and a 15k procd frag tooltip is hitting everyone for 4k if you can even hit them through dodge roll, block, shuffle, cloak, and reflect. No resources were used, no global cooldowns were spent, and no effort was given in the heat of combat. It's just mindless, passive mitigation, and it is VERY strong when combined with the resist buffs, heals, dodge rolls, blocks, shuffles, break frees, reflects, and sprint that stamina has at it's disposal.

I would trade hardened ward in a heartbeat for a magicka equivalent of those defensive capabilities.

exiledtyrant

I think a good mechanic that could work here is something called blockers from Anarchy Online. The engineer would cast a buff that blocks X amount of attacks and refreshes the blockers in X amount of seconds. The blockers would let light/heavy attack and DOTs through, but completely negate direct damage from abilities. Any crowd control component would of course still go through. Since this game doesn't work on cooldowns however, the cost would have to be balanced in a way that punished spamming either by prohibitive cost like daedric mines or cost stacking like ball of lightning. It could also be transformed into a toggle that doesn't reset the refresh counter.

This would allow magicka and stamina sorcerers to pull from a unique defense without having to worry about scaling from a single resource and the problems that come with it. It also means that sorcerers are back to generic forms of healing again, but it's mostly like that now. With the full integration of pets that can also be solved.