A better option to fix shield stacking

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

xAPxZeez wrote: »

Cloak breaker set:

A robe of eyes set that prevents cloak/stealth or sneaking within 50m. The use of stealth/cloak and sneak inside range provide no bonuses and do not work.

Heal breaker set:

Light attacks cause target to receive reduced healing cast AND received by 50% for 20 seconds. A target healing themself gets reduced healing by 75%.

Then you can have a small taste of how OP the shield breaker set is. Yes I play a sorc and my DK uses the shield breaker set and it is WAY OP and not just against sorcs.

These sets would be awesome to have ingame.

NativeJoe

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Lava_Croft

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

It's the only thing sorcs got to defend themselves though. Shall we just take away all the defense of all classes in cyro so that whoever hits the other first wins? As that's what you want with sorcs.

revonine

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

I do have a Sorc and when I finally levelled it to V16 I transferred over my maxed out gear that my magblade uses. At first I thought ZOS was playing some kind of sick joke on me. I was a complete noob Sorc and that class made me look like a pro.

FriedEggSandwich

.

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Yeah I have two sorcs. You're right wards don't inherit resistances, however they do inherit the protection of Hardy, Elemental Defender and Thick Skinned. These are not classed as resistances but "reduced damage" or something. So yes you can make your ward tougher by investing in these cp trees

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Damage is halved. Healing is halved. Heath is increased. Mitigation remains the same. So why do shield decrease? I would say its not because a 7-8k Blazing Shield is popping for 3-4k AOE damage in Melee range is OP. I would say its because a 20,000 PLUS shield that last for 20 seconds and can be cast multiple times with no diminishing returns is OP.

Actually it's to make it fair because when you take damage with a shield you don't need to heal it, so that shields would be OP compared to healing if both were balanced without a debuff in mind that decreases healing only...
Furthermore, the reason Obsidian Shield and Sun Shield are underperforming is 1.) reduced health modifier and 2.) lack of softcaps/diminishing returns. Hardened Ward, like most seemingly unbalanced skills, is not the root of the problem.

thats where your wrong. scale sun shield and obsidian shield off of max magica and then come tell me its not scaling shields off the dps modifier that is an issue.
but they cant do that because it would be too strong and the rivers of tears would flow. thats why scaling ALL shields of targets max health is necessary for some balance. yes people would do a little less dps because they actually need more health but it would not be the end of the world.

ToRelax

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Damage is halved. Healing is halved. Heath is increased. Mitigation remains the same. So why do shield decrease? I would say its not because a 7-8k Blazing Shield is popping for 3-4k AOE damage in Melee range is OP. I would say its because a 20,000 PLUS shield that last for 20 seconds and can be cast multiple times with no diminishing returns is OP.

Actually it's to make it fair because when you take damage with a shield you don't need to heal it, so that shields would be OP compared to healing if both were balanced without a debuff in mind that decreases healing only...
Furthermore, the reason Obsidian Shield and Sun Shield are underperforming is 1.) reduced health modifier and 2.) lack of softcaps/diminishing returns. Hardened Ward, like most seemingly unbalanced skills, is not the root of the problem.

thats where your wrong. scale sun shield and obsidian shield off of max magica and then come tell me its not scaling shields off the dps modifier that is an issue.
but they cant do that because it would be too strong and the rivers of tears would flow. thats why scaling ALL shields of targets max health is necessary for some balance. yes people would do a little less dps because they actually need more health but it would not be the end of the world.

Except Sorcerers don't run around Cyrodiil with less health than other players who focus on dealing damage. You really think Templars and DK's would be over the top with magicka scaling shields? They used to have shields scaling off their highest stat, health. And no, it was not OP. They would also have higher damage on their other skills with magicka scaling shields? Not higher than now, plus Sorcerers deal more damage now than they did in 1.5 as well, don't they? Please explain how I am wrong in my assertion.

RoamingRiverElk

ToRelax wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Damage is halved. Healing is halved. Heath is increased. Mitigation remains the same. So why do shield decrease? I would say its not because a 7-8k Blazing Shield is popping for 3-4k AOE damage in Melee range is OP. I would say its because a 20,000 PLUS shield that last for 20 seconds and can be cast multiple times with no diminishing returns is OP.

Actually it's to make it fair because when you take damage with a shield you don't need to heal it, so that shields would be OP compared to healing if both were balanced without a debuff in mind that decreases healing only...
Furthermore, the reason Obsidian Shield and Sun Shield are underperforming is 1.) reduced health modifier and 2.) lack of softcaps/diminishing returns. Hardened Ward, like most seemingly unbalanced skills, is not the root of the problem.

thats where your wrong. scale sun shield and obsidian shield off of max magica and then come tell me its not scaling shields off the dps modifier that is an issue.
but they cant do that because it would be too strong and the rivers of tears would flow. thats why scaling ALL shields of targets max health is necessary for some balance. yes people would do a little less dps because they actually need more health but it would not be the end of the world.

Except Sorcerers don't run around Cyrodiil with less health than other players who focus on dealing damage. You really think Templars and DK's would be over the top with magicka scaling shields? They used to have shields scaling off their highest stat, health. And no, it was not OP. They would also have higher damage on their other skills with magicka scaling shields? Not higher than now, plus Sorcerers deal more damage now than they did in 1.5 as well, don't they? Please explain how I am wrong in my assertion.

Well... I'd be much more likely to be running with 21k HP on a magicka DK, if the shield was as strong as a sorc's. I could have like... 4k to 6k more max magicka, which would translate into damage. Still, it wouldn't be op, it would start to bring magicka DKs up to the level of other builds. Magicka DKs still can't move well, when they get rooted repeatedly, they're pretty much stuck. ...I suppose in that case, magicka DK would be about the same as magicka sorc in power, with the difference that the dk still couldn't escape the zergs and thus would still die more often.

Edit: so I'm not talking about duels here, just open world, small group pvp.

ToRelax

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Damage is halved. Healing is halved. Heath is increased. Mitigation remains the same. So why do shield decrease? I would say its not because a 7-8k Blazing Shield is popping for 3-4k AOE damage in Melee range is OP. I would say its because a 20,000 PLUS shield that last for 20 seconds and can be cast multiple times with no diminishing returns is OP.

Actually it's to make it fair because when you take damage with a shield you don't need to heal it, so that shields would be OP compared to healing if both were balanced without a debuff in mind that decreases healing only...
Furthermore, the reason Obsidian Shield and Sun Shield are underperforming is 1.) reduced health modifier and 2.) lack of softcaps/diminishing returns. Hardened Ward, like most seemingly unbalanced skills, is not the root of the problem.

thats where your wrong. scale sun shield and obsidian shield off of max magica and then come tell me its not scaling shields off the dps modifier that is an issue.
but they cant do that because it would be too strong and the rivers of tears would flow. thats why scaling ALL shields of targets max health is necessary for some balance. yes people would do a little less dps because they actually need more health but it would not be the end of the world.

Except Sorcerers don't run around Cyrodiil with less health than other players who focus on dealing damage. You really think Templars and DK's would be over the top with magicka scaling shields? They used to have shields scaling off their highest stat, health. And no, it was not OP. They would also have higher damage on their other skills with magicka scaling shields? Not higher than now, plus Sorcerers deal more damage now than they did in 1.5 as well, don't they? Please explain how I am wrong in my assertion.

Well... I'd be much more likely to be running with 21k HP on a magicka DK, if the shield was as strong as a sorc's. I could have like... 4k to 6k more max magicka, which would translate into damage. Still, it wouldn't be op, it would start to bring magicka DKs up to the level of other builds. Magicka DKs still can't move well, when they get rooted repeatedly, they're pretty much stuck. ...I suppose in that case, magicka DK would be about the same as magicka sorc in power, with the difference that the dk still couldn't escape the zergs and thus would still die more often.

Edit: so I'm not talking about duels here, just open world, small group pvp.

Yeah, exactly why I wrote "other players who focus on dealing damage". We might see more of those in small groups if their shields were more powerful, but it doesn't mean if you want to deal damage now you stack health to more than ~23k.

Xeven

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Magicka DKs still can't move well, when they get rooted repeatedly, they're pretty much stuck. ...I suppose in that case, magicka DK would be about the same as magicka sorc in power, with the difference that the dk still couldn't escape the zergs and thus would still die more often.

True for all magicka classes. If a sorc is rooted, they can not choose which direction they streak in (this is a whole different topic on the OPness of roots), not that it even matters, read below.

If you are out of range of a gap closer, it is possible, sometimes, to stay out of range of gap closers using streak. Once youre in range, there is no getting out. In the age of gap closers, snares, and exponential streak costs, nobody is mobile except NB.

coolermh

Here is whats going to happen...



ppl wine about cloak...zos nerfs cloak badly...meta shifts to sorc...
ppl wine about sheilds...zos nerfs sheild....meta shifts to mag dk...
ppl wine about magk dk...zons nerfs mag dk....meta shifts to op...templar
ppl wine about templar....

Do you all not see the cycle here.... just make a v16 in each class so you can play the flavor of the month

Tdroid

I think it should, like most other shields in the game, scale with Max Health and not Max Magicka. Sorcerers want to be tanky? Make the same sacrifices in character setup as everyone else has to! Seriously, how is it that they get away with full light armor, being a damage build and have that level of survivability?

Damage/survivability should be a trade-off. Having a Max Magicka based shield lets the Sorcerer stack survivability the same way they stack damage.

Ishammael

The more I think about the "shield stacking" mechanic the more I realize that the issue is ridiculously complicated.
1. I agree with the crowd that suggests they scale off health with the reasoning that there should always be a trade between optimizing damage and defense.
2. I also agree with the suggestion to remove the "stacking" mechanic and allow only one shield active at a time (and then remove or change the Battle Spirit debuff) with the reasoning that Harness + Hardened is too strong against magicka.
3. I also recognize that WB --> Leap, WB --> Jabs, or Prox/Ambush/DB burst is insane.

In any case, to implement shield balance changes would require a much larger set of balance changes -- it could not be implemented alone (for instance, heals are based on spell/weapon damage and therefore maxing damage maxes healing).

ShalidorsHeir

go on pts - try dot builds, try tavas thingy set, try new burst builds - shields are fine and there is nothing that needs to be fixed - if u still cant break shields on pts (except of latency problems xD ) l2p

there are builds who can just destroy shields with one skill - and then its useless. a shield needs to be up to cast anything...otherwise a sorc can just recast shields until he gets stunned -> upper cut, executioner -> dead :P for example - there are more - pls learn to think before u write ***.

if there should be changed anything then this is:
sorc just needs another defense he has to use! so that he has to remove 1 dmg or buff ability. and then u can full crit on shields for example cuz sorc dont need to spam shields cuz he has another defense too.

but - grow up guys - u wanna go on crying ... and this will never end!

i guess the most ppl cry cuz they cant instal kill from stealth with bow from a keep with camo hunter bug... or cant zerg skilled sorcs 20 vs 1 down cuz there are abled to escape this *** way of playing eso ... or cant kill a sorc on a full tank char with 1.7 dps (no the "k" is not missing). -> otherwise they woud just say. "nerf daedric mines" what i would accept as argument less dmg on mines would fix almost everthing i guess ... nope im really sure --> for stam classes

and if harrness ward would be removed completly -> everthing is fine for mana classes as well

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

go on pts - try dot builds, try tavas thingy set, try new burst builds - shields are fine and there is nothing that needs to be fixed - if u still cant break shields on pts (except of latency problems xD ) l2p

there are builds who can just destroy shields with one skill - and then its useless. a shield needs to be up to cast anything...otherwise a sorc can just recast shields until he gets stunned -> upper cut, executioner -> dead :P for example - there are more - pls learn to think before u write ***.

if there should be changed anything then this is:
sorc just needs another defense he has to use! so that he has to remove 1 dmg or buff ability. and then u can full crit on shields for example cuz sorc dont need to spam shields cuz he has another defense too.

but - grow up guys - u wanna go on crying ... and this will never end!

i guess the most ppl cry cuz they cant instal kill from stealth with bow from a keep with camo hunter bug... or cant zerg skilled sorcs 20 vs 1 down cuz there are abled to escape this *** way of playing eso ... or cant kill a sorc on a full tank char with 1.7 dps (no the "k" is not missing). -> otherwise they woud just say. "nerf daedric mines" what i would accept as argument less dmg on mines would fix almost everthing i guess ... nope im really sure --> for stam classes

and if harrness ward would be removed completly -> everthing is fine for mana classes as well

Yeah, the damage is way too high ingame for them to change hardened ward in any negative way. If they nerf the shield, nerf damage across the board for everyone too to compensate.

xAPxZeez

Many great suggestions although the scaling off health imo is a bad idea unless the scaling is right on.

Sorcs and magicka builds wear light armor giving the least amount of physical protection. Their stronger shields helps make up for that. I still see stacking as the problem.

All builds are weak/strong to other builds nobody is the king of everything. If you find shield stacking sorcs a problem as a stamina user I suggest try shield breaker set 2-3 people using this can drop most shield users in a couple seconds and shield users generally recast their shields thinking they are taking damage and the shield must be down. If they are a problem and you're a magicka user then I agree with you because hardened and harness shouldn't stack.

I do think barrier and other shields should stack with hardened though to provide utility and usefulness from other classes. Maybe what needs to be looked at is the scaling of other classes shields and possibly buffed 10-15% so the disparity between shields wasn't so large. Again though magicka sorcs generally have the least amount of mitigation without their shields.

Lucky28

Tdroid wrote: »

I think it should, like most other shields in the game, scale with Max Health and not Max Magicka. Sorcerers want to be tanky? Make the same sacrifices in character setup as everyone else has to! Seriously, how is it that they get away with full light armor, being a damage build and have that level of survivability?

Damage/survivability should be a trade-off. Having a Max Magicka based shield lets the Sorcerer stack survivability the same way they stack damage.

This kind of shortsightedness......

Every other class has a DPS 'Class' ability that also returns health. and stamina has some of the best heals in the game. sorcs have shields these are the mechanics that keep sorcs alive in large scale battles same as heals do for others. You wanna nerf shields, fine. then heals will also be nerfed as they'd need to bring other classes down to what sorcs become without shields.

So go for it.

Lava_Croft

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

It's the only thing sorcs got to defend themselves though. Shall we just take away all the defense of all classes in cyro so that whoever hits the other first wins? As that's what you want with sorcs.

Magicka Sorcerers just need to be brought in line with the rest of the Magicka builds and Stamina Sorcerers do just fine without stacking shields and without having access the Restoration Staff and Annulment.

FriedEggSandwich

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

It's the only thing sorcs got to defend themselves though. Shall we just take away all the defense of all classes in cyro so that whoever hits the other first wins? As that's what you want with sorcs.

Magicka Sorcerers just need to be brought in line with the rest of the Magicka builds and Stamina Sorcerers do just fine without stacking shields and without having access the Restoration Staff and Annulment.

Stam sorcs don't really do just fine; squishiest builds in cyro. What they have over mag sorcs is crit rush and more dodge rolls, but if they had a stam ward I don't think they'd be op. Not using the resto staff doesn't equate to being naturally survivable; stam builds use 2 stam based heals, a burst and a hot. This is no different really to using mutagen and blessing. Sorcs can't pvp in 5 light without a ward, maybe with s&b but that is pretty niche. If you know any that do then I would genuinely like to hear from them.

As for bringing sorcs in line with the rest of the magicka builds I assume you mean ward scaling off health? I don't really have an opinion on this because I can't predict how it would actually affect sorcs. I mean most sorcs I see have over 20k hp which is roughly about the same as other dps classes, so how would the ward scale off hp? Would it actually even mean a nerf? Who knows. All I know is that other non-sorc wards also scale off magicka so sorcs aren't exactly as unique in this respect as people would like to believe. What I mean is a mageblade running harness and/or healing also gets a defensive buff by stacking magicka, for example.

I'm playing devils advocate slightly; I want shield stacking removed. I'm just defensive about anti-damage-absorption rhetoric, cos absorbing damage is realistically the only effective damage mitigation magicka sorcs have. If you disagree then please share the ward-free sorc build many sorcs are desperate for.

xAPxZeez

You're also comparing medium wearing stamina sorcs who use weapon skills to light wearing magicka sorcs who use mostly class skills. Most of the class skills are either entirely different or different morphs. Most stamina sorc builds use the sorc skills for buffing and weapon skills for damage. This does not make a fair comparison.

If you removed a magicka DKs instant AE drains, heals, hots, dots and reflect then I think you have a closer comparison to a sorc. But if you removed all that why would someone want to play the dk? You can now see why sorcs get concerned about their 1 defense being nerfed and concerned about survivability.

ToRelax

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

It's the only thing sorcs got to defend themselves though. Shall we just take away all the defense of all classes in cyro so that whoever hits the other first wins? As that's what you want with sorcs.

Magicka Sorcerers just need to be brought in line with the rest of the Magicka builds and Stamina Sorcerers do just fine without stacking shields and without having access the Restoration Staff and Annulment.

Stam sorcs don't really do just fine; squishiest builds in cyro. What they have over mag sorcs is crit rush and more dodge rolls, but if they had a stam ward I don't think they'd be op. Not using the resto staff doesn't equate to being naturally survivable; stam builds use 2 stam based heals, a burst and a hot. This is no different really to using mutagen and blessing. Sorcs can't pvp in 5 light without a ward, maybe with s&b but that is pretty niche. If you know any that do then I would genuinely like to hear from them.

[...]

Are you serious? superior mitigation and damage, ignoring annulment, doesnt have to care about shieldbreaker because vigor+rally, more speed, better aoe. All fine if it was as squishy as any stam build, not fine with a 10k+ ward.

FriedEggSandwich

ToRelax wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

The problem with this is that sorcerers will die much faster if shields are weakened. Especially when they are already cut in half.

I like the fact that bleeds and crits now effect them because it applies pressure and would add leeway to adjusting their potency in cyrodiil.

The problem is that if the sorcerers survivability or damage isn't address then no one will play with it if they keep dying like they did when they marred the armor system.

Say what you like about shield stacking, but without it sorcerers would be nothing.

I disagree. The champion system has always allowed you to strengthen any ward against magic, elemental and dot damage by investing in Hardy and Elemental Defender and Thick skinned. Hardy is being changed in the next patch to reduce physical damage and Elemental Defender is gaining magic defence. So sorcs will have the option to strengthen their hardened ward by upto 25% against physical, elemental, magic and dot damage. I currently have 27cp each in hardy and elemental defender for 10% reduced damage, and 10cp in thick skinned for 5% reduced damage. This is on top of my 77cp in bastion for 20% increased strength to shields. I only have 450cp but I seem to have enough to spend in the right places to make my one ward tough enough to give me thinking time.

It's also possible to tank up a bit underneath your ward so that when your ward gets broken you can take more hits giving you more time to recast your ward. Some heavy armour, impen, boundless storm and defensive rune help with this. The major ward and major resolve from boundless storm counter the major breach and major fracture debuffs that certain skills inflict, meaning any armour investment you make only has to deal with penetration. Defensive rune pauses any single incoming damage for as much time as it takes for them to cc break. Defensive rune can be spammed as much as hardened ward. And those cp investments into hardy etc also help you when your ward is down. All of this buys you plenty of time to recast hardened ward. Sorcs are far from nothing without shield stacking, it's a shame most think that they are.

Do you even have a sorc? Shields DONT gain resists... ever. from anything. They always take full damage.

Sorcerers are by far the most delusional class in Cyrodiil, constantly thinking they are weak while in essence there's no class that combines tankiness, mobility and burst damage into a single class as much as the Sorcerer does. I highly expect them to be hit by a decent (shield) nerf bat sooner or later.

It's the only thing sorcs got to defend themselves though. Shall we just take away all the defense of all classes in cyro so that whoever hits the other first wins? As that's what you want with sorcs.

Magicka Sorcerers just need to be brought in line with the rest of the Magicka builds and Stamina Sorcerers do just fine without stacking shields and without having access the Restoration Staff and Annulment.

Stam sorcs don't really do just fine; squishiest builds in cyro. What they have over mag sorcs is crit rush and more dodge rolls, but if they had a stam ward I don't think they'd be op. Not using the resto staff doesn't equate to being naturally survivable; stam builds use 2 stam based heals, a burst and a hot. This is no different really to using mutagen and blessing. Sorcs can't pvp in 5 light without a ward, maybe with s&b but that is pretty niche. If you know any that do then I would genuinely like to hear from them.

[...]

Are you serious? superior mitigation and damage, ignoring annulment, doesnt have to care about shieldbreaker because vigor+rally, more speed, better aoe. All fine if it was as squishy as any stam build, not fine with a 10k+ ward.

Save your breath man, was offering opinion to try to make the point that stam sorcs don't "do just fine" without shields, understand context please. In my experience they are the squishy as hell. I'm not suggesting a stam ward, and even if I did I wouldn't suggest it was equal to the magicka version.

ShalidorsHeir

stam sorc has the strongest stam heal ever! crit surge (what sadly does not work on mana sorc ^^) is awesome to restore health with insane dmg! + vigor + rally what is just the only nice thing on stam sorc. so there is no need for shields ... as well as for all other stam classes you genius guy ^^ -> at least stam sorc is not finished yet. there are many things missing to be variable and viable using different stuff like dmg abilities based on stam, some extra sustain or defense stuff etc.

"does not have to care about shieldbreaker cuz vigor + rally, more speed" => WRONG! stam sorc has not to care cuz he dont uses shields (and as i said -> there is a) no reason and b) no resource to use shields) ... how many intelligence is needed ... damn

but some should learn to read --> i can see the aspect of shields are bullsh*t -> they are too strong if u cant break them within 2-3 seconds and they are too weak (i ignored all other skills like mines etc in this case cuz its only about shields!) if u can!

so just read it again! :

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

go on pts - try dot builds, try tavas thingy set, try new burst builds - shields are fine and there is nothing that needs to be fixed - if u still cant break shields on pts (except of latency problems xD ) l2p

there are builds who can just destroy shields with one skill - and then its useless. a shield needs to be up to cast anything...otherwise a sorc can just recast shields until he gets stunned -> upper cut, executioner -> dead :P for example - there are more - pls learn to think before u write ***.

if there should be changed anything then this is:
sorc just needs another defense he has to use! so that he has to remove 1 dmg or buff ability. and then u can full crit on shields for example cuz sorc dont need to spam shields cuz he has another defense too.

but - grow up guys - u wanna go on crying ... and this will never end!

i guess the most ppl cry cuz they cant instal kill from stealth with bow from a keep with camo hunter bug... or cant zerg skilled sorcs 20 vs 1 down cuz there are abled to escape this *** way of playing eso ... or cant kill a sorc on a full tank char with 1.7 dps (no the "k" is not missing). -> otherwise they woud just say. "nerf daedric mines" what i would accept as argument less dmg on mines would fix almost everthing i guess ... nope im really sure --> for stam classes

and if harrness ward would be removed completly -> everthing is fine for mana classes as well

olsborg

xAPxZeez wrote: »

After seeing he proposed changes as a sorc and dk I'd like to say the options are terrible.
Adding a cast time would ruin sorcs only real defense, same with making it interruptable.
Critting a shield that has already been cut in half is a bad fix.

The real problem is shield stacking not the shields on their own.

Fix how they interract.

There are two types of shields physical and magical just make them exclusive.
You can have one of each active but any shield that provides both will overwrite both.

Have hardened ward on which gives both then neither will work on top of that.

Have magicka harness on then cast hardened ward you now have hardened ward no magicka harness.

Make hardened ward the #1 on priority overwriting others but not letting others overwrite it.

There you go no more over powerful shield stacking sorcs.

I support this idea with the full weight of my ESO plus membership....oh wait...

ShalidorsHeir

olsborg wrote: »

xAPxZeez wrote: »

After seeing he proposed changes as a sorc and dk I'd like to say the options are terrible.
Adding a cast time would ruin sorcs only real defense, same with making it interruptable.
Critting a shield that has already been cut in half is a bad fix.

The real problem is shield stacking not the shields on their own.

Fix how they interract.

There are two types of shields physical and magical just make them exclusive.
You can have one of each active but any shield that provides both will overwrite both.

Have hardened ward on which gives both then neither will work on top of that.

Have magicka harness on then cast hardened ward you now have hardened ward no magicka harness.

Make hardened ward the #1 on priority overwriting others but not letting others overwrite it.

There you go no more over powerful shield stacking sorcs.

I support this idea with the full weight of my ESO plus membership....oh wait...

this will not work without a strong heal!
Cuz healing ward is more important than hardened ward when ur health is down! and there is no good programmer for ZOS to implement rules for shields that wont end in a bug or nerf when ping > 120

just read what i wrote above your commend - think - and then anwer.

Defilted

The worst part of you guys get what you want in PVP. PVE gets screwed.

Thank you for your short sighted complaints.

ShalidorsHeir

cuz of the shield nerf ideas or cuz of any other stuff? (then you are wrong here ^^)

Defilted

As usual this forum is my PVP problem first. The drum beat of 50 other people agreeing. A class gets nerfed. PVE gets screwed.

Keep the PVP changes to PVP is all I am saying. VMSA would be harder with any nerfs to sorc shields and it is hard enough. Not to mention any other trial of 4 man that require the ability to eat a 20 K or better shot from a boss.

There are two sides to this game.

ToRelax

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

stam sorc has the strongest stam heal ever! crit surge (what sadly does not work on mana sorc ^^) is awesome to restore health with insane dmg! + vigor + rally what is just the only nice thing on stam sorc. so there is no need for shields ... as well as for all other stam classes you genius guy ^^ -> at least stam sorc is not finished yet. there are many things missing to be variable and viable using different stuff like dmg abilities based on stam, some extra sustain or defense stuff etc.

"does not have to care about shieldbreaker cuz vigor + rally, more speed" => WRONG! stam sorc has not to care cuz he dont uses shields (and as i said -> there is a) no reason and b) no resource to use shields) ... how many intelligence is needed ... damn

but some should learn to read --> i can see the aspect of shields are bullsh*t -> they are too strong if u cant break them within 2-3 seconds and they are too weak (i ignored all other skills like mines etc in this case cuz its only about shields!) if u can!

so just read it again! :

[...]

Calm down man, and read carefully before quoting me out of context. The context being a hypothetical situation in that there exists a stamina based Conjured Ward.