Have ESO become pay to win ?

Mr.Hmm

Xellos77 wrote: »

There's so much crying it's really sad.


Expansions were released with gear included within them to hunt for.

Lesson: buy the damn expansion.

"I can't be competitive unless I have XXXX gear, only available in XXXX DLC!"

Lesson: buy the damn expansion, then join a leet guild.



OR don't buy the expansion, and let the tears flow.

^^^^^^

Quit your whining and either buy the expansion or not.

I pay sub for the game and I have never regretted it.

I use these Crowns[You are given 1.5k crowns each month] to buy the costumes that ZoS have released in-game and the expansions(even thought I have them by ESO Plus, I still buy them in the case I drop the sub for any reason), plus I bought the imperial upgrade too.

Long Story Short,

The game is not Pay to win.
If you cannot access the new content it's because you do not have the expansion.

If we go by the logic(The Logic you guys believe which is utter *** and pure lies) that you cant get the new end-game gear because you dont have the expansions then World of Warcraft should be p2w since you can access the end-game content only if you have the expansions.

You are simply a stingy person that doesnt want to buy the expansion and want everything in-game to be free for you.<- this is the truth about who you guys who are whining about p2w are.

Do us the favor and either buy the expansion(Thus having access to the new content) or find another game, I had enough of you people.

Xellos77

The funny thing is viewing this from a single-player game standpoint. If ESO (Elder Scrolls: Offline) was a thing and people played through the game, it'd be a complete experience. Additional DLC would be at the whim of the buyer and if they liked "vanilla" enough, they'd upgrade. No bones about the whole thing.

Now, because DLC releases gear within that content, there is outcry about an unfair playing field. Unfair how, exactly?

OP mentions "not being able to compete", as if ESO content is impossible without this new gear. Compete with whom? The person next to you putting out a bit more DPS in a dungeon run? The top 1% leaderboards? I fail to see exactly what the issue is, other than hands looking for handouts. It's not a valid argument. It makes you look totes jelly.

DLC is NOT a new phenomenon. Expansions and add-ons have been a common practice with many games for a good while now. You don't want to pay? You don't get the new toys/content. Period.






And this whole p2w argument is moot. If, or when, ZOS offers a Staff/Sword/Dagger/Bow/Battle Axe of Mass Destruction in the CS for $20.. and I can buy it.. therefore out-DPSing everyone with gear found "in-game", then we can revisit the argument. For now, spending a few bucks on a 2-hour XP scroll is not p2w. It's pay for a bit of convenience. Big difference.

Tears. Neverending.

Talyena

I didn't read every post but I do have to point out one thing. ESO gives free access to all its expansions to date to its subscribers. Of all the games I've played, none have offered 100% free expansions. Some have offered some free expansions and there may be a few out there I haven't played that offered them all for free, but most all of them charge even their subscribers for expansions. And since many if not most of those expansions do things like introduce more powerful gear or increases in level caps (or both), anyone who wants to get that gear or reach those levels must buy the expansion. That makes ESO less pay to win than most other games out there.

JamilaRaj

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You can not get instantly available, no effort required items any other way (if you could, cash shop items would become unsellable); people buy items with cash precisely for that quality, which in-game apparent counterparts lack.

I dont understand what your point is to me. What instantly available items are available from the store that are not available in game. Granted it wont be instant but you can get it.

Then they are different from items in the cash shop. That instant availability is a property of an item, an invisible price tag; an item that is obtainable in-game will either have "this item requires painful grind to work" price tag attached and the same power, or will have the same "this items requires to effort" price tag, but different, weaker to no power, compared to an item from the cash shop.

Mr.Hmm wrote: »

If we go by the logic(The Logic you guys believe which is utter *** and pure lies) that you cant get the new end-game gear because you dont have the expansions then World of Warcraft should be p2w since you can access the end-game content only if you have the expansions.

That is incorrect. The reason why it (probably, I do not play it) is P2W is not because end-game content is paywalled, but because people can bring paywalled content such as gear back to the base game and e.g. use it to overpower those who did not pay.

lordrichter wrote: »

This is my problem with this line of discussion: I do not think you have demonstrated that "equal amount of game time" resulting in "FURTHER" is "Winning" something that matters and is exclusive to those who do it with XP Boosters.

That might be the case if everyone in the game had time limits and could only spend, for example, an hour per day in the game. As it stands today, the wide variety personal time that people can spend in the game means that those two people may be spending significantly more, or significantly less, than other players in the game. Those other players may, or may not, be using XP Boosters, and may be getting more or less XP than the two.

On top of that, people will never be identical in how efficiently they use time to gain XP. The person using the XP Booster may or may not get more XP than the person who does not, over the duration of any given XP Booster item. A person with 1000 hours in the game may have less total experience than a person who has spent 500 in the game, with or without XP Boosters being used.

This is why CP do not matter to XP Boosters, even when uncapped.

That people have different amount of time at their disposal and spend it with different efficiency, and, therefore, some will be more powerful without boosters than some some with, does not make XP boosters irrelevant.
Drop something else in place of XP boosters and see how stupid it is. Say, ionizing radioation; even if you expose some people to lethal doses, some other people will die sooner because whatever reasons, yet that will not make radiation harmless, as much as a few people with a lot of time outgrinding a few super lazy credit card warriors will not make XP boosters for cash less P2W.

WalkingLegacy

DLC and Expansion do not equate to pay to win. That's a normal progression and life cycle of any game let alone an MMO.

Just hard to see a difference with ESO because soon all will be just 50 with the stupid champion point progression system. Every DLC will see new gear tied to level 50 + X amount of CP instead of increasing a few levels to equip item

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

JamilaRaj wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You can not get instantly available, no effort required items any other way (if you could, cash shop items would become unsellable); people buy items with cash precisely for that quality, which in-game apparent counterparts lack.

I dont understand what your point is to me. What instantly available items are available from the store that are not available in game. Granted it wont be instant but you can get it.

Then they are different from items in the cash shop. That instant availability is a property of an item, an invisible price tag; an item that is obtainable in-game will either have "this item requires painful grind to work" price tag attached and the same power, or will have the same "this items requires to effort" price tag, but different, weaker to no power, compared to an item from the cash shop.

Mr.Hmm wrote: »

If we go by the logic(The Logic you guys believe which is utter *** and pure lies) that you cant get the new end-game gear because you dont have the expansions then World of Warcraft should be p2w since you can access the end-game content only if you have the expansions.

That is incorrect. The reason why it (probably, I do not play it) is P2W is not because end-game content is paywalled, but because people can bring paywalled content such as gear back to the base game and e.g. use it to overpower those who did not pay.

The whole point of the store is bypassing part of the grind by paying. Thats not pay to win. Winning would be getting gear noone else can get unless they also pay for it.

Gidorick

As many people have stated, the idea of DLC that adds to content and adds gear and new abilities seems to be the nature of the genre. Without these upgrades the game would stagnate. While there are some MMOs that haven't relied on for-pay expansions (Everquest & Eve) modern MMOs depend on these additional releases to survive.

Does this mean that players who DON'T buy the DLC will be LESS competitive than those that DO buy the DLC... sure it does. But as I've mentioned before, I think this is ok. I wish the Thieves Guild skills included active skills and not just a copy-paste of the legerdemain passives. If this happened, I'm sure people would scream that it was pay to win.

The simple fact is, games need to grow and evolve. If ZOS doesn't allow players to grow and evolve with DLCs then ESO will become stagnant and players will get bored. Those who care about being competitive will buy the DLC to become more powerful to remain competitive, so they're good.

Perhaps DLC should just be considered as part of "paying for the game"... and by extension ESO+ should also. Whatever is contained within ESO+ should be considered to be part of the core game. This way, DLC wouldn't seem pay to win because buying DLC is considered to be buying the game, not buying access to additional power.

At this point the question is... is there anything that players can buy ON TOP OF what is contained within ESO+ that will provide them an unfair advantage over those who do not buy them... currently, in ESO... there is not.

When it comes down to it, it really depends on the perspective of the player answering the question... and if that player considers DLC to be to be part of the game or additional content.

Personally, I'm comfortable with labeling ESO as a "slightly pay-to-win" title. If someone asked me "Do I need to buy more than the base game to remain competitive in PVP?" I would answer "Yes." But, NO, ESO doesn't allow players to buy immediate additional power without effort, which is the distinction many players seem to make when defining pay-to-win.

Samsayia

I think ya'll can let this thread die. Thread creator simple had no idea what the applied term "pay to win" is for.

I think enough of you have explained to him what the internet/gaming community consensus on what "pay to win" means. If he doesn't get it by now, then you can't argue with him cuz he's just not having it.

failkiwib16_ESO

The popular 2 craftable sets: Julianos and Morkuldin are not bound on pickup, and can be traded between players with DLC and those without DLC.
The Maelstrom weapon enchantments are weird, and for most players either not useful or too hard to achieve.
The White Gold Tower and Imperial City Prison sets are a hard grind, requires a good group and weeks, if not months of grind, before you get a full set of what you want, and if you're lucky then with the desired traits as well.

• Many (if not most) players struggle at just completing these dungeons on veteran mode. (to grind these items, it is best to do them in veteran mode, as normal mode does not drop Daedric Shackles and Daedric Embers, which are trophies required to open a vault chest, that drops 2 random traited set items from the given dungeon.).
• Molag Kena set from White Gold Tower is proven to be the most useful and desired item from DLC content. Most players prefer to only use 1 piece from this set, because 2 can cause sustain problems. The shoulder piece of this set drops from undaunted pledge chests, which players without access to Imperial City DLC can obtain.

Calling ESO pay to win, because there are some weapons and items that are good for only certain situations and builds, is misleading at best.

firstdecan

8 pages on an obvious troll. Congrats OP!

Vrienda

Is WoW pay to win because you need the latest expansion to do any of the content (What little there is of it anyway) related to that expansion? No.

If you want to keep up you'll need to buy the DLC's/Expansions, otherwise you'll be stuck in Craglorn forever.

Thybrinena

firstdecan wrote: »

8 pages on an obvious troll. Congrats OP!

That's how I feel also lol.

Go play LOTRO then return here and tell me ESO is P2W.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

so let me get this strait. your saying if you cant get the items in new content without the content then people buying/subbing and playing new content are paying to win?

If you are, serious LOLZ bud.

they are adding monster helms and some endgame gear to a new special vendor, so instead of doing the dungeons another 50 god damn times to get v16 versions you can buy them, AND its still not pay to win because it cost IN GAME currency. thank god too. some people want to play the pve just for the experience of it not grind 50 times, nice to have the option to stay in cyrodill and buy some gear.

anitajoneb17_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Again, yes... your arguments ignore the important part of my demonstration : "with the same amount of game time". Player A doesn't get anywhere FASTER, he gets FURTHER.

And yes, by that logic, ESO+ is pay to win.

But all this is IF CPs are not capped, which they are now, so the issue is inexistent. With the cap, your logic applies, people just get there faster and it's plain convenience.

This is my problem with this line of discussion: I do not think you have demonstrated that "equal amount of game time" resulting in "FURTHER" is "Winning" something that matters and is exclusive to those who do it with XP Boosters.

That might be the case if everyone in the game had time limits and could only spend, for example, an hour per day in the game. As it stands today, the wide variety personal time that people can spend in the game means that those two people may be spending significantly more, or significantly less, than other players in the game. Those other players may, or may not, be using XP Boosters, and may be getting more or less XP than the two.

On top of that, people will never be identical in how efficiently they use time to gain XP. The person using the XP Booster may or may not get more XP than the person who does not, over the duration of any given XP Booster item. A person with 1000 hours in the game may have less total experience than a person who has spent 500 in the game, with or without XP Boosters being used.

This is why CP do not matter to XP Boosters, even when uncapped. The only person who could possibly "win" in this scenario is the person who is using them to get to 3600 CP. To do this, they would have to optimize XP earning and be willing to spend the time in the game in order to maximize the XP/hour over the course of 3600 CP. At this point, are they winning because they are using 12 XP Boosters every day, because they are in the game 12 hours/day, or because they have an XP pipeline that can feed them the XP they need to get to 3600 CP fast?

When I add to this the fact that players can get XP Boosters outside of the Crown Store, for gold or effort, the P2W aspect of XP Boosters pretty much vanishes. I see nothing to indicate that any XP Boosters in this game result in "winning" anything significant over those who are simply willing to put in the time and effort.

If you want to analyze the impact of ONE thing you have to separate it from all other criteria, like in a laboratory, "all things being equal otherwise", even if it is a purely theoretical situation.

If you don't, then all other impacting causes come into the mix. You could argue that a cash shop item that provides 50% extra damage is not P2W because it could be used ingame by a bad player who would still lose...

On the general topic : I think we should all refrain from using the P2W concept because of its extremely negative connotation. Let's use fairness instead.
Do we have to pay some extra money beyond the purchase of the base game to keep our game and gaming experience up to date ? The answer is definitely, YES.
Is ZOS being FAIR with the cash shop policy ? In my opinion, definitely, YES, ZOS is extremely fair.

If you don't think it's fair and you feel like you're being tricked into spending extra cash, I'd suggest you quit the game. Analogy would be, if you don't want to spend some money to put some fuel in your car, you're free to ride your bike instead.

Aimora

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

hehe.. you guys like that chart a lot! THANKS GOOGLE!

@exeeter702 , you say the P2W is NOT a subject term and has a very simple and very clear meaning... Is this clear the meaning:

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

Does the above statement derived from your comments need more to properly clarify the meaning of P2W?

Well technically that is an accurate summary. I'm not sure what your angle is.

I like how mistrusting people on the forum and internet in general are. This isn't the first time that's happened to me.

I genuinely want to know!

I said on the FIST page of this thread that I struggle with this definition and right now I'm thinking ESO is pay to win. But... I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong and change my opinion if I'm presented with compelling evidence.

The FIST page (Let's add that one to your concept repository )

On topic

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

I would add "statistical advantage necessary to complete the game's goal or beat the game" and that definition would be quite fitting to me.

The problem with ESO is that we don't all agree on the meaning of "win" because we have different goals.

- The player who stays in the game for his guild and social contact and loves running dungeons and stuff with his friends will "win" just by having his social requirement fulfilled => no P2W in this case, you don't buy friends.

- The "RP" or "fashion-show" player will want to be able to "make his character" perform and show as much as possible in the game, possibly make him charismatic and famous and sought after, that's what "win" will mean to him => to him the game is clearly P2W. Luckily, most of these people are not "competitive" by nature but rather the cooperative-interactive kind.
(Speaking of which, I wonder why they don't sell new emotes in the crown store, that would make tons of money to ZOS).

- The "streamer" would seek to "win" by making interesting content and widen his audience. I don't think there's anything in the Crown Store that could help him achieve this, so it's not P2W to that type of player.

- The "trader" who enjoys making gold, playing the market... to him, "win" would mean having the most gold of the entire playerbase, creating a monopoly... nothing in the Crown Store will help him either so it's not P2W (rather the opposite, whenever crown store stuff comes in direct competition with ingame tradeable stuff, i.e. ambrosia).

- The competitive PvE player : for him, "winning" means fighting for N°1 in the leaderboards. Do they need some specific BiS items ? Yes. Are these items available in the crown store ? No. But you have to buy the DLC or at least sub for a month to get them. So yes it's P2W, not because some boosting item is directly purchasable in dollars, but because it's gated. I don't think anyone in this category minds : staying "competitive" implies "in the game's current state" and it's obvious that a competitive PvE player will have access to all DLCs anyway.

- The competitive PvP player : for him, "winning" is being able to 1v1, 1vX, zergVzerg as many other players as possible, dominate his campaign, become and stay emperor, etc... I'm less versed in this community so I should let them answer : do you feel there's any aspect of the game that is P2W for competitive PvP players ?
(for me I'd say yes, referring to the riding lessons scrolls : a fast horse IS a MUST in Cyrodiil and nothing in the game lets you bypass the 2 months needed to max your horse, so these scrolls for me are a convenience item in PvE but P2W in PvP).

.

Brilliant post

Gidorick

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Again, yes... your arguments ignore the important part of my demonstration : "with the same amount of game time". Player A doesn't get anywhere FASTER, he gets FURTHER.

And yes, by that logic, ESO+ is pay to win.

But all this is IF CPs are not capped, which they are now, so the issue is inexistent. With the cap, your logic applies, people just get there faster and it's plain convenience.

This is my problem with this line of discussion: I do not think you have demonstrated that "equal amount of game time" resulting in "FURTHER" is "Winning" something that matters and is exclusive to those who do it with XP Boosters.

That might be the case if everyone in the game had time limits and could only spend, for example, an hour per day in the game. As it stands today, the wide variety personal time that people can spend in the game means that those two people may be spending significantly more, or significantly less, than other players in the game. Those other players may, or may not, be using XP Boosters, and may be getting more or less XP than the two.

On top of that, people will never be identical in how efficiently they use time to gain XP. The person using the XP Booster may or may not get more XP than the person who does not, over the duration of any given XP Booster item. A person with 1000 hours in the game may have less total experience than a person who has spent 500 in the game, with or without XP Boosters being used.

This is why CP do not matter to XP Boosters, even when uncapped. The only person who could possibly "win" in this scenario is the person who is using them to get to 3600 CP. To do this, they would have to optimize XP earning and be willing to spend the time in the game in order to maximize the XP/hour over the course of 3600 CP. At this point, are they winning because they are using 12 XP Boosters every day, because they are in the game 12 hours/day, or because they have an XP pipeline that can feed them the XP they need to get to 3600 CP fast?

When I add to this the fact that players can get XP Boosters outside of the Crown Store, for gold or effort, the P2W aspect of XP Boosters pretty much vanishes. I see nothing to indicate that any XP Boosters in this game result in "winning" anything significant over those who are simply willing to put in the time and effort.

If you want to analyze the impact of ONE thing you have to separate it from all other criteria, like in a laboratory, "all things being equal otherwise", even if it is a purely theoretical situation.

If you don't, then all other impacting causes come into the mix. You could argue that a cash shop item that provides 50% extra damage is not P2W because it could be used ingame by a bad player who would still lose...

On the general topic : I think we should all refrain from using the P2W concept because of its extremely negative connotation. Let's use fairness instead.
Do we have to pay some extra money beyond the purchase of the base game to keep our game and gaming experience up to date ? The answer is definitely, YES.
Is ZOS being FAIR with the cash shop policy ? In my opinion, definitely, YES, ZOS is extremely fair.

If you don't think it's fair and you feel like you're being tricked into spending extra cash, I'd suggest you quit the game. Analogy would be, if you don't want to spend some money to put some fuel in your car, you're free to ride your bike instead.

Is ESO fair?

Without question, yes.

mattymaats

I think the ESO sub is pretty good, although the actual benefits such as the 10% xp,gold etc are a bit lame and they could add something better the fact that you get access to all the DLCs and 1500 crowns (the same amount if you just bought the crowns each month) is pretty fair and very generous for an mmo. Normally you either sub to be able to play or sub for a crappy xp bonus and access to a few areas but ESO lets me buy more shiny skins every month on top of the bonuses + DLC access xD.

Edit - Also with all the pay2win games I have played I would not consider ESO at any point to be p2w in its current state, far from it. It has a few convenience items in the shop but there is nothing that is p2w and they seem to be very good with it. Although there's a few things people might consider p2w which they could add and I wouldn't mind as let's be fair here we want more content, we want more bug fixes and we want ESO to keep running so I am more than happy for them to obtain money in places which help them provide more staff. This is the view people really need to have as this game is a hobby which we have to invest not only our time but also our wallets as new content isn't free.

Lysette

mattymaats wrote: »

I think the ESO sub is pretty good, although the actual benefits such as the 10% xp,gold etc are a bit lame and they could add something better the fact that you get access to all the DLCs and 1500 crowns (the same amount if you just bought the crowns each month) is pretty fair and very generous for an mmo. Normally you either sub to be able to play or sub for a crappy xp bonus and access to a few areas but ESO lets me buy more shiny skins every month on top of the bonuses + DLC access xD.

Edit - Also with all the pay2win games I have played I would not consider ESO at any point to be p2w in its current state, far from it. It has a few convenience items in the shop but there is nothing that is p2w and they seem to be very good with it. Although there's a few things people might consider p2w which they could add and I wouldn't mind as let's be fair here we want more content, we want more bug fixes and we want ESO to keep running so I am more than happy for them to obtain money in places which help them provide more staff. This is the view people really need to have as this game is a hobby which we have to invest not only our time but also our wallets as new content isn't free.

With every additional DLC ESO+ membership will get more valuable - and we will get extras on top of it, like the announced crafting bag. In the end ZOS will get what they wanted in the first place - a lot of subscribers, because it will make more and more sense to subscribe the more DLC content will be available. And for someone who would anyway buy a lot of stuff from the crown store, the membership fee is just a small add-on to what he/she would pay anyway for having additional fun in the game.

AlnilamE

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

The popular 2 craftable sets: Julianos and Morkuldin are not bound on pickup, and can be traded between players with DLC and those without DLC.
The Maelstrom weapon enchantments are weird, and for most players either not useful or too hard to achieve.
The White Gold Tower and Imperial City Prison sets are a hard grind, requires a good group and weeks, if not months of grind, before you get a full set of what you want, and if you're lucky then with the desired traits as well.

• Many (if not most) players struggle at just completing these dungeons on veteran mode. (to grind these items, it is best to do them in veteran mode, as normal mode does not drop Daedric Shackles and Daedric Embers, which are trophies required to open a vault chest, that drops 2 random traited set items from the given dungeon.).
• Molag Kena set from White Gold Tower is proven to be the most useful and desired item from DLC content. Most players prefer to only use 1 piece from this set, because 2 can cause sustain problems. The shoulder piece of this set drops from undaunted pledge chests, which players without access to Imperial City DLC can obtain.

Calling ESO pay to win, because there are some weapons and items that are good for only certain situations and builds, is misleading at best.

I like the way you put it. I also want to point out two things:
- Having the DLC (or subscription) gives you a chance at those items, not the items themselves.
- While ZOS goes overboard on the BoP stuff, they have been pretty good at making some of the DLC gear available outside the DLC (ie, Agility/Willpower/Endurance gear dropping from dungeon bosses and Briarheart/Pariah/Trinimac gear dropping from Cyrodiil/IC chests).

WalkingLegacy

Gidorick wrote: »

As many people have stated, the idea of DLC that adds to content and adds gear and new abilities seems to be the nature of the genre. Without these upgrades the game would stagnate. While there are some MMOs that haven't relied on for-pay expansions (Everquest & Eve) modern MMOs depend on these additional releases to survive.

Does this mean that players who DON'T buy the DLC will be LESS competitive than those that DO buy the DLC... sure it does. But as I've mentioned before, I think this is ok. I wish the Thieves Guild skills included active skills and not just a copy-paste of the legerdemain passives. If this happened, I'm sure people would scream that it was pay to win.

The simple fact is, games need to grow and evolve. If ZOS doesn't allow players to grow and evolve with DLCs then ESO will become stagnant and players will get bored. Those who care about being competitive will buy the DLC to become more powerful to remain competitive, so they're good.

Perhaps DLC should just be considered as part of "paying for the game"... and by extension ESO+ should also. Whatever is contained within ESO+ should be considered to be part of the core game. This way, DLC wouldn't seem pay to win because buying DLC is considered to be buying the game, not buying access to additional power.

At this point the question is... is there anything that players can buy ON TOP OF what is contained within ESO+ that will provide them an unfair advantage over those who do not buy them... currently, in ESO... there is not.

When it comes down to it, it really depends on the perspective of the player answering the question... and if that player considers DLC to be to be part of the game or additional content.

Personally, I'm comfortable with labeling ESO as a "slightly pay-to-win" title. If someone asked me "Do I need to buy more than the base game to remain competitive in PVP?" I would answer "Yes." But, NO, ESO doesn't allow players to buy immediate additional power without effort, which is the distinction many players seem to make when defining pay-to-win.

What the....unless my memory is poor, Everquest definitely had pay for expansions...and you know what the difference in your comparisons are?

Both those games have/had subs.

Gidorick

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

As many people have stated, the idea of DLC that adds to content and adds gear and new abilities seems to be the nature of the genre. Without these upgrades the game would stagnate. While there are some MMOs that haven't relied on for-pay expansions (Everquest & Eve) modern MMOs depend on these additional releases to survive.

Does this mean that players who DON'T buy the DLC will be LESS competitive than those that DO buy the DLC... sure it does. But as I've mentioned before, I think this is ok. I wish the Thieves Guild skills included active skills and not just a copy-paste of the legerdemain passives. If this happened, I'm sure people would scream that it was pay to win.

The simple fact is, games need to grow and evolve. If ZOS doesn't allow players to grow and evolve with DLCs then ESO will become stagnant and players will get bored. Those who care about being competitive will buy the DLC to become more powerful to remain competitive, so they're good.

Perhaps DLC should just be considered as part of "paying for the game"... and by extension ESO+ should also. Whatever is contained within ESO+ should be considered to be part of the core game. This way, DLC wouldn't seem pay to win because buying DLC is considered to be buying the game, not buying access to additional power.

At this point the question is... is there anything that players can buy ON TOP OF what is contained within ESO+ that will provide them an unfair advantage over those who do not buy them... currently, in ESO... there is not.

When it comes down to it, it really depends on the perspective of the player answering the question... and if that player considers DLC to be to be part of the game or additional content.

Personally, I'm comfortable with labeling ESO as a "slightly pay-to-win" title. If someone asked me "Do I need to buy more than the base game to remain competitive in PVP?" I would answer "Yes." But, NO, ESO doesn't allow players to buy immediate additional power without effort, which is the distinction many players seem to make when defining pay-to-win.

What the....unless my memory is poor, Everquest definitely had pay for expansions...and you know what the difference in your comparisons are?

Both those games have/had subs.

I may be mistaken about Everquest. That would even make the point stronger. MMOs have expansions. Full stop. Since MMOs have expansions, the cost of those expansions shouldn't factor into the pay2win discussion, as it seems to be defined by most players.

As @anitajoneb17_ESO said previously there is a problem with the differing perspectives on the term pay2win. As such, I think the majority of this thread isn't so much about whether or not ESO is pay2win, it's about what pay2win even means.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I have a solution. ESO will go paid to play. Zenimax will send each of us a check for $20 a month. Just have to login once a month to get your check.

Boom problem solved. They should friggin hire me at Zenimax. Im a genius.

Flak

It's L2P2Win

Gidorick

Flak wrote: »

It's L2P2Win

or.. RNG2Win ?

altemriel

pay to win would be true if the weapons and sets from the paid DLC would dramatically overpower the regular weapons and sets. but that is not true as far as I know. I might be wrong though...

RebornV3x

Eso is not pay to win yeah its a bit more of a hassle or expensive in game wise without the newest DLC but you can still have someone make you the newest gear and you can buy the Vr 15+ mats from most guild traders and some of the vanilla sets are still viable for most content. So you can get the Scamp pet or the polymorphs but that's what you get for buying the DLC.

Inarre

wskill wrote: »

Its pretty stupid to argue that it wouldnt be pay to win if you can only get specific optimal gear by first paying for dlc, that is pretty much the most obvious version of pay to win there is so how anyone can defend that is beyond me.

Luckily i dont give a *** about endgame content, im just enjoying the quests.

Did you even read this very accurate definition of Pay to Win games?

exeeter702 wrote: »

Many people can remember the time of pc gaming when f2p was not even a thing in west whatsoever. It was a time when the only "Free to play" games in existence were awful Asian market pc multiplayer games. These games literally sold the strongest items or boosts via real money, there were no in game alternatives. Players that opted out of spending cash were never under any circumstance able to compete on equal footing with those that did spend cash, no matter how much time investment they committed. Nexon titles were particular offenders at that time.

This is where the term p2w was born from. There were literally no other games in existence of this type at that time to draw comparisons too. That was it, done deal. P2w was exclusively used to describe those games and only those type of games. That is where it's proper definition comes from.

Eso is not and never will be p2w.

Please also see this link providing an accurate description of most pay-to-win games. These games literally offer the players the option to purchase items in game to level their character, provide better gear, faster mounts.

The eso equivalent would be if you decided you wanted to play ESO and you were able to log into the crown store and purchase 12k USD worth of crowns, buy a leveling item that leveled your chosen character to v16, CP items that leveled you to cap CP, an item to raise your undaunted, skyshards, mages guild and fighters guild, one that progressed the main story line for you, gave you a mount that was faster and had more stamina and pack space than anyone else in the game could achieve, gave you gear that was better than anyone could farm in the game.

Can you purchase luxury items like horse speed in the crown store? Yes. Can you farm coin and purchase the same amount in game? Yes. Does one give an advantage over the other? Only if you judge "winning" on a time scale. And only if "winning" is riding a fast horse....

WalkingLegacy

Gidorick wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

As many people have stated, the idea of DLC that adds to content and adds gear and new abilities seems to be the nature of the genre. Without these upgrades the game would stagnate. While there are some MMOs that haven't relied on for-pay expansions (Everquest & Eve) modern MMOs depend on these additional releases to survive.

Does this mean that players who DON'T buy the DLC will be LESS competitive than those that DO buy the DLC... sure it does. But as I've mentioned before, I think this is ok. I wish the Thieves Guild skills included active skills and not just a copy-paste of the legerdemain passives. If this happened, I'm sure people would scream that it was pay to win.

The simple fact is, games need to grow and evolve. If ZOS doesn't allow players to grow and evolve with DLCs then ESO will become stagnant and players will get bored. Those who care about being competitive will buy the DLC to become more powerful to remain competitive, so they're good.

Perhaps DLC should just be considered as part of "paying for the game"... and by extension ESO+ should also. Whatever is contained within ESO+ should be considered to be part of the core game. This way, DLC wouldn't seem pay to win because buying DLC is considered to be buying the game, not buying access to additional power.

At this point the question is... is there anything that players can buy ON TOP OF what is contained within ESO+ that will provide them an unfair advantage over those who do not buy them... currently, in ESO... there is not.

When it comes down to it, it really depends on the perspective of the player answering the question... and if that player considers DLC to be to be part of the game or additional content.

Personally, I'm comfortable with labeling ESO as a "slightly pay-to-win" title. If someone asked me "Do I need to buy more than the base game to remain competitive in PVP?" I would answer "Yes." But, NO, ESO doesn't allow players to buy immediate additional power without effort, which is the distinction many players seem to make when defining pay-to-win.

What the....unless my memory is poor, Everquest definitely had pay for expansions...and you know what the difference in your comparisons are?

Both those games have/had subs.

I may be mistaken about Everquest. That would even make the point stronger. MMOs have expansions. Full stop. Since MMOs have expansions, the cost of those expansions shouldn't factor into the pay2win discussion, as it seems to be defined by most players.

As @anitajoneb17_ESO said previously there is a problem with the differing perspectives on the term pay2win. As such, I think the majority of this thread isn't so much about whether or not ESO is pay2win, it's about what pay2win even means.

Well people are morphing pay to win to fit their agenda. Does not matter what they think pay to win is, they're wrong. Wrong definitions. DLC/Expansions progress the game and are not pay to win.

Inarre

One more thing... The meat of the matter here is who is winning.... Correct? And if those winners are paying.

If we ask the general ESO population they will QQ and say OMG Sorcerers are SO OP. Holy mudcrab those stupid stamblades!

Can you BUY a sorcerer or a stamblade? Can you even BUY the best class for these?

Imperial is the only class that is Buy to Play above and beyond the regular game. And this extra class that has the ability to be pay-to-win isn't even chosen as the best most OP class for min-max builds. They have a lot of great uses and are liked over all and considered one of the most versatile, but at the end of they day the only thing this gives you is a few extra stats and style of armor.

The winners right now are the OP classes and these winners can be created purely by paying the normal 60$ pay-to-play game.

If the DLC content was considered "pay to win" you would hear a whole lot of QQing from the public about "oh em gee those maelstrom staffs one shot me QQ" and this simply doesnt happen.

ESO winners don't have to pay a single thing extra.

TeHdAbWiZ

Anyone who PAYS for a game can agree that there should always be more content available and a leg up on the people that don't pay for the extra content and just want everything handed too them on a silver platter for free. I don't comment on anything ever but when I see these post it gets annoying.you should be thanking Me and everyone else that pay for dlc, crowns, and ESO+.....your welcome for all of your free updates and patches! Wish they woulda never made it F2P cause it would cut down on the mooches complaining about not having what the people that pay hard earned money for!